₦airaland Forum

All those claiming lies just prove they do not know God, His ways or understanding

In God's Own Words -

Isaiah 48:10: "See: I have refined you, but not with silver. I have chosen you in the furnace of affliction." For the mature Christian, UNFORESEEN TRAGEDIES LEAD TO A MORE MEANINGFUL LIFE as he usually finds quiet, understanding and trust when the chips are down.

Hebrews 12:6: "the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son" A Mark of sonship is usually trials. As Abraham's children, we wish for and pray for his blessings, but they came entwined with trials - he was PROVED before he was blessed.

@SirJohn:

what ailment did the "author" suffer?

@lawyerchap:

if you use torrents, download EP 3 at http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6120256/Spartacus.Gods.of.the.Arena.Pt.I.480p.HDTV.ReEnc.X264-BoB. But that is the BoB edition (Best of both - quality & quantity) so its small. To get any other film/show, go to their home page at http://thepiratebay.org and type the name in. You'll get almost any film/show in tv history there. If you need a download manager to help make your downloads easy, google "free download manager" and it will manage all torrents/other downloads for you.

Wicked of you!

The dude reads ROR only. How do you want him to know where Romans is? ROR says Rom 8: 5 & you must admit Romance sounds like Romans so Romance it is.

Plus of course, this is CEC. Romance/associated stuff is never far from them

I see there is no reply yet to Chukwudi, SirJohn and Zikky! . Well, their daddy also does that - makes claims and when disproved, takes off

"And Satan left Him for a season" Luke 4:13

All any honest person has to do is remember - the Apostle Paul himself had an affliction IN HIS FLESH.

So, why did Paul himself who wrote most of these things you twist excuse sickness in his own body since you claim dominion over sickness? Did he enjoy affliction? Is that alone not sufficient to show the author of that rubbish above is a liar, a conman and a pretender who doesn't know God but uses scripture like his father satan does - for self serving purposes?

Dumb myopic belief in a daft idiotic article written by a lying criminal author. Sadly, they will soon be back with more lies but 2011 will see them down and out - for keeps

noetic16:
You are simply a baby christian without the deep knowledge of the word, that explains why u usually quote scriptures either by isolating them or totally quoting them out of depth. For your information, this is the deep context of soul winning

1. John 6:44 . . . . .No man cometh to Christ except the father draws them near.
2. mathew 11:27 . . . 27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and [size=14pt]those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.[/size]
3. Revelation 21:17 talks of the book of life, when was the contents of this book written?

These verses tell you that it is ONLY the father and His son that SAVES souls. . . .and not you. if it were not so, then all those who had heard the gospel should be saved by now. but salvation belongs ONLY to God's elect. You CANNOT save a soul.

You just said it all. As they say, the one eyed man is King in the country of the blind and in this case, this our one eyed man is also carrying guns to scare the totally blind mugus - fear, condemnation and trickery backed with no conscience.

They miss that all of this is budgeted, planned, set in motion and achieved ALL by God Himself.

@noetic:

Long time Where is Dafidi the Man of War?

Don't mind these ignorant people. Even their oga knows nothing of God's Word. He just copies anything Copeland and Hinn say and repackages for his ROR.

Yes, God's REAL Work cannot be stopped. However, it is too obvious the Creator is less and less involved in the disgraceful travesty called CE. This is a business empire geared at personal cash overflows for specific people.

I prophesy - what will make that work dwindle and die has started and the flames will not ebb till the fake is totally exposed and the true Word, Works of God and God's Own Church are vindicated.

Roman Centurions, non-Jews, Ethiopians, Jews themselves etc ALL testified of Jesus and took their ill and diseased to Him. Same with His Apostles.

Nobody was disappointed. Nobody.

And here, we find the good foundation set up by these blessed of God being eroded by criminals parading as Christians. People who have no conscience, no knowledge of God or truth, no scruples masquerading as Angels of Light. You convince a recovering person to stop using drugs and not only kill her, but her children too are now under threat. And for what? Money, money, money.

This man is definitely cursed of God

This was a joint effort with me adding some stuff and trying to reduce the verbosity of the information. I can't name the author because I do not know his name . I came across the information on the internet as to the meaning of the PARABLE awhile back and copied much of the theses. Study in prayer proved this to be a gift from the Holy Spirit as there is a great deal more attached to the story which is useful for today's Christian. All I did was add some words, highlight portions I liked and save for the rainy day.

But there is a sour taste left in the mouth in all this - exposing what "lazarus & the rich man" stands for has exhibited the Spirits of pride, untruth and false religion that lives and thrives in our "supposed" brothers who are quick to say others know little but in theology, mannerisms and lifestyle show the opposite i.e. that they are the ones who don't know God, His Ways, Character or Design.

Where are the supposed "gods" now they are shown to be ignorant JUST like the Pharisees who thought they were up there even while they were a generation of Vipers? Where is Aunty Nuella to insist lazarus was a man? Where is Jo to misquote and twist this to mean we should bring money? Where is the head mumu to support what he has no understanding of and which he refuses to learn? And where is Donnie who started this thread to prove salvation was a decision based event for the Apostles but now has run out of steam?

Are you guys still searching for excuses? Pride. And it still goes before a fall. Its Sad - because those who truly care are those you make enemies whist you embrace your enemies. God is calling His Own. Answer if you're one

^^^ what of the other members? What manner of hold does the yaks-master have over them? Why do they insist on a lie even when evidence to the contrary is overwhelming?

@loveking:

Man was the only creature said to be made in the Image of God i.e. perfect, eternal, etc. Animals were "standard" assembly line stuff i.e. totally normal.

When man fell, he fell into "that" state - the state of the "ruled"' the "manipulated", that other creation was in

^^ Ha,, Kunle wants to tie live wire to my right leg and neutral to my left leg then flick the switch.

You want me to become "the Rich Man"?

@e36991:

"A ti be speaker bayi O" literally meaning - we've let the cat out of the bag.

Now that I've done your work for you, please come make it easier on those who cannot accept Nukeboy. Sad though, cos thats the same way they saw Christ (whose father they knew and whose naming they attended as big men) and could not accept Him especially with that His big mouth calling them names like hypocrites, generation of vipers etc.

The "Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man" explained in better words than I have

There is only one man who Scripturally fits all the descriptions of the "rich man" in this parable. He is "JUDAH !"

But not just Judah as an historical individual, but collectively. All Israel under the headship of Judah, the Jews. And the Jews were "rich."

Beginning back in Gen. 15:14 God said Abraham’s descendants were to be very rich. "And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance."

"Therefore the Lord stablished the kingdom in his hand and all Judah brought to Jehoshaphat presents; and he had riches and honour in abundance" (II Chron. 17:5)

", and he built in Judah castles, and cities of store" (Ver. 12)

Jerusalem had a standing army of 860,000 men! (II Chron. 17:13-18). And that didn’t even include the fortified cities in Judah. (Ver. 19)

Hezekiah (King of Judah):

", had exceeding much riches and honour; and he made himself treasures for silver, and for gold, and for precious stones, all manner of pleasant jewels; storehouses also for the increase of corn, and wine, and oil, and stalls for all manner of beasts , he provided him cities, possessions of flocks and herds in abundance; for God had given him substance very much" (II Ch 32:27-29.

So yes, Judah was rich. And who to this day are universally known for having money and being successful in the financial world? The Jews. However, these were just some of Judah’s material possessions. Judah was rich in another way--very rich. Judah possessed something far more valuable than all of these possessions. God bestowed on Judah a treasure greater than any other on the face of the earth, in the history of the world.

"What, then is the prerogative of the Jew, or what the benefit of circumcision? Much in every manner, For first, indeed, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God" (Rom. 3:1-2).

Prerogative is translated from [Gk. perisson’ EXCESS, SUPERABUNDANTLY] Who has a diamond collection, an art collection, a string of corporations, or fifty Swiss Bank accounts that could begin to approach the value of the oracles of God?

"For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things, " (Deu. 4:7).

"He sheweth His word unto Jacob, his statutes and His judgment unto Israel" (Psa. 147:19)

"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews" (Jn 4:22)

So not only was Judah rich materially, but God bestowed on Judah His very word, and through Judah the very salvation of the world. Who but Judah possessed such wealth? ", and he dressed in purple, "

But can you imagine Christ asking His disciples: "Oh, by the way, would you fellows be interested in knowing what color clothing this Rich man was wearing just before he went to Hell?" Ridiculous nonsense!

But what is nonsense in the literal is the symbolic sign of this man’s real identity!

Purple is: "A color used in garments of a bluish red, by a dye obtained from a shell fish, purpura. It denotes rank of royalty" (Greek-English Keyword Concordance p. 236).

Purple was worn by Kings (Judges 8:26). Even the Caesars of Rome wore Purple as a symbol of their royalty.

And who was to carry the royal line in Israel?, Judah.

"The scepter [a symbol of rulership and power] shall not depart from Judah, now a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come, " (Gen. 49:10).

David was of the Tribe of Judah and was anointed King of Judah. Our Lord was of the line of Judah (Mat. 1:2), and will be not only King of Judah, but King of Kings over all the world.

During our Lord’s ministry, Judea was under Roman rule, however, there were still rulers in Judea--The Jews. There were Scribes, Pharisees, and Priests. Jesus said they had power and authority from God. "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do, " (Mat. 23:2-3).

God has always elevated Judah above the other Tribes.

In I Chron. 2:1-3 we read:

"These are the sons of Israel; Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun, Dan, Joseph, and Benjamin, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher. The sons of Judah;, "

Notice Judah was the third born to Israel [Jacob] and is listed third, but when God gives their children’s names He starts first with Judah.

To show Judah’s dominance in Rulership, when the Tribes of Israel are enumerated in Revelation 7:4, Judah is put first at the head of the list. He was not, however, the firstborn!

", and cambric (fine linen), "

The Rich man didn’t just dress in "Purple," but "Purple and Cambric." He wore both. Cambric or Fine Linen is symbolic of the clothing that the priests wore (Ex. 28:5, 25:4). And of the interior decorations of the Tabernacle itself (Ex. 26:1).

Our Lord would not have told us that the Rich man wore these two specific types of garments except that they have great symbolic value in identifying who this man personifies.

But if "Purple" symbolizes "Royalty" and "Fine Linen" symbolizes "Priesthood," how can the same man wear both? Only our Lord is both, King and Priest.

Remember, the Levites and the priests were loyal to Judah through their long history.

When they got the opportunity, they went with Ezra and Nehemiah back to Jerusalem--back to Judah. They were part of Judah. They were called Jews. Only one, had both the Scepter and the Priesthood: Judah.

Notice this Scripture carefully:

"Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites , God had raised, to go up to build the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem." (Ezra 1:3).

There it is! Judah had both the royalty and the priesthood. And all these leaders of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, became who were known in Christ’s time as "the Jews." And that’s why, although the Apostle Paul was of the Tribe of Benjamin, nonetheless, he said of himself, that he was "a Jew."

In Judah were both the Royal Scepter (purple) and the Priesthood (fine linen). And that’s the reason Christ took the time to tell us what the Rich man was wearing! And no other personality in Scripture has both these designations along with all the other identifying features attributed to the Rich man!

Father Abraham ", Child, be reminded, "

Judah could therefore legitimately call Abraham, "Father." Abraham was Judah’s Great Grandfather. Abraham could legitimately call the Rich man, "Child." Judah was Abraham’s Great Grandchild.

"They have Moses and the Prophets, "

The Kingdom of Judah did have "Moses and the Prophets." They were the protectors and scribes of those very documents till the time of our Lord’s ministry, when Jesus said that they "sit in Moses’ seat." Judah was the very depository for The Law (Moses), The Prophets, and the Writings. Remember the Oracles were given to the Jews (Rom. 3:1-2).

The Rich man said: "I have five brothers, "

There’s a rule of Scripture study that is very sound, and I believe is applicable here. It goes like this: "Literal where and when possible." Most of this parable cannot be taken literally. Why? Because for one, it often contradicts the laws of science and physics. And two, it would contradict hundreds of other plain verses of Scripture. It’s the "parable" that cannot be taken literally. That does not mean that certain facts contained "in" the parable are not "literal." Abraham is, undoubtedly, "literally" Abraham. Moses and the prophets are, undoubtedly, "literally" Moses and the prophets. They obviously represent themselves, not someone else.

With that in mind, who was it who had literally five brothers? Not that these "five brothers" cannot represent something else in the Scriptures. For example, there were five spheres where there were "Jews" who heard Christ proclaimed after His resurrection:

Jerusalem

Judea

Samaria

The "limits of the land"

Those Jews dispersed "among the nations."

At first glance, you might think Judah can’t be this "Rich man." Didn’t Judah have eleven brothers? Yes and No. True, there were twelve sons of Israel, one of which was Judah, but not all by the same mother.

Judah’s Mother, Leah, had

Reuben

Simeon

Levi

Issachar

Zebulun

Judah makes six (Gen. 29:31-35, 30:18-19).

So who had five brothers? Judah.

That Judah (the Jews), is here personified in this Rich man, there can be little doubt!

But who then is this "Lazarus?" ABRAHAM’S BOSOM (Back to the basics - Hope of the Saints)

The answer is not far to find when we see where he is: "in Abraham’s bosom." Being in someone’s bosom shows a very close emotional relationship and position of honor. Christ likens Himself as being in the "bosom" of His Father (Jn 1:18). And John, likewise, who was very fond of Jesus leaned back into Jesus’ bosom (Jn 13:23). To be in the bosom of Abraham, or the bosom of Christ, or the bosom of the Father, are certainly positions of great honor.

The Jews coveted that relationship with Abraham. They were so proud of their Father Abraham. They knew that God thought highly of their Father Abraham, and they wanted to be connected to that lofty position themselves. However, they did not come even close to qualifying for such an honor. They loved to say: "We have Abraham for our father!" But as Christ told them, they didn’t do the works of faith that their Father Abraham did.

So Judah is not in the bosom of Abraham, but Lazarus is. Why? Who is this "Lazarus" that he should have such a lofty position of honor with the Father of the faithful?

I said earlier that the Jews, undoubtedly, understood who Christ was referring to in both the Rich man and Lazarus. Remember that the Jews of Jerusalem knew Hebrew. Their scriptures were written in Hebrew. And they were a lot closer to these symbols and the Hebrew language than we are today.

"And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said

"Behold, to me thou hast given no seed; and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir." (Gen. 15:2-3).

In chapter 13 God had already promised great land and possessions to Abram’s seed. But Abram had no seed!

Abram told God that since he had no son, his chief steward, Eliezer, would be his heir and inherit all that was his.

Eliezer was so faithful a steward to Abraham that he was planning to make him his heir and give Eliezer all his possessions and inheritance. Eliezer would have been wealthy. He would have inherited the "promised land." He would have received the "oracles of God" Ah, but no, God had different plans. Abraham would have a son Isaac who would continue the Abrahamic line.

It appears that Eliezer will be left out. He lost his one big claim to fame. Now he’s just a Gentile from Damascus. All his generations will be Gentiles (dogs). Eliezer knew he would inherit all of Abraham’s posessions one day. And now, that’s all gone. But he remains faithful.

Eliezer had ample opportunity to do away with Isaac on any number of occassions, but he remained faithful to Abraham. He even took a journey to get a wife for Isaac. Every step of faith and obedience that Eliezer took removed him just that much further from the inheritance he always thought would be his. He did all that a faithful steward should do. But every step of faithful obedience to Abraham caused his inheritance to slip further away.

Imagine just how faithful and trustworthy a steward would have to be for Abraham to leave ALL his possessions to him. Abraham was extremely rich. Why look for "another" to pass these blessings onto? Eliezer has already proved himself faithful. Abraham had already concluded that Eliezer was the only logical heir:

"This Eliezer of Demascus , born in my house IS MINE HEIR" (Gen. 15:2-3)

ABRAHAM HAD PROMISED HIS INHERITANCE TO THIS FAITHFUL MAN AND GOD KEEPS COVENANTS

It appears that either Eliezer becomes Abraham’s heir, or he receives nothing. Absolutely no spiritual promises or possessions were ever made by God to Eliezer If he is not to get Abraham’s inheritance, which included all that Abraham already had plus all that God is about to bless him with on top of all his other possessions, then Eliezer is going to be poor as far as spiritual blessings are concerned. As a Gentile, all he can ever hope for are the spiritual "crumbs" that fall from the Rich man’s table. Not to fear: Through faith God works many miracles.

FAITH OF THE GENTILES

"Now the woman was a Greek, a native of Syro-Phoenicia [A Gentile], and she asked Him that He should be casting the demon out of her daughter. Yet Jesus said to her, ‘Let first the children [The Jews] be satisfied, for it is not ideal to take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs.’ Yet she answered and is saying to Him, ‘Yes, Lord, For the dogs also, underneath the table, are eating the scraps from the little children.’ And He said to her, ‘Because of this saying, go. The demon has come out of your daughter.’" (Mk. 6:27-29).

So clearly this Syro-Phoenician woman was not asking for a small portion of food (crumbs or scraps), but rather a small portion of Christ’s spiritual blessing. And clearly, Lazarus does not represent a street beggar in need of a small portion of food. He personifies something much greater than one single beggar in the street.

When Christ entered Capernaum a centurion [a Roman, a Gentile] asked Christ to heal his boy. Christ said He would come. The Centurion said He need only to "say the word" and he would trust Christ for the healing!

"When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to them that followed, ‘Verily I say unto you I have not found so great faith no, not in Israel’" (Mat. 8:5-10).

Why then, are the Gentiles relegated to "dogs?" Not in all Israel did our Lord find such faith as in these GENTILE "DOGS!" But "Judah" gets all the blessings while the "Gentile" dogs get the crumbs? Ah, just when we think things are going bad and God isn’t fair, He shows us His strange and marvelous wisdom!

As Paul Harvey says, "And now for the rest of the story, " What was Christ’s response to this marvelous exhibition of faith by the Centurion?

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and the west [Gentiles], and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the Kingdom of Heaven, but the children of the kingdom [Judah--the Jews] shall be cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Mat. 8:11-12).

Christ is not telling us that "Jews" from the East and "Jews" from the West will sit down with Abraham, but that the "Jews" shall be cast out." That’s contradictory. It’s the "Jews" who are the "children of the kingdom" who are "cast out." And those from the East and West are "GENTILES." Christ is telling us who these "many" are because He is commenting on the faith that God has given to this Centurion Gentile.

LAZARUS IDENTIFIED

Christ rarely spoke of the Gentiles in His ministry. But He did speak of them. And, although, He said He was sent only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, in His human ministry, He nonetheless, was making provisions for the Gentiles, as in this prophetic statement. As Christ’s disciples were to be like "salt" to the earth, this Syro-Phoenician woman, Cornelius of the Italian squadron, the Roman Centurion, the Samaritan woman at the well, and others were certainly like "salt" among the Jews. The very first sermon of Christ’s ministry foretold the calling of the Gentiles, and it nearly cost Christ His life (Luke 4:13-30).

When it comes to God’s blessings, faith is thicker than blood. AND truth is thicker than claims.

God has not "cast off" the Gentiles!

So we find "Lazarus" [Gk: helpless] begging scraps from a rich man’s table. Can "helpless" find "help?" Will God have mercy on him just as He did the Syro-Phoenician woman and the Centurion? Yes!

"LAZARUS" IS "ELIEZER"!!

The Greek "Lazarus" is from Lazaros [Heb. HELPLESS].

But in Hebrew "Lazarus" is Elazar or "Eliezer" from el [God] and azar [HELP]!

If Lazarus knew his Hebrew name, he would have known that help was on the way. The "God of Help" had already planned this whole marvelous drama from the time of Abraham.

Just as the Jews can look to their ancient "father" Abraham as a sterling example of faith in God, so now, likewise, can the Gentiles Look to Abraham’s Steward, Eliezer as a "father" of rare faith. Truly there is no partiality with God--it only appears that way when we let the relative get in the way of the absolute.

[b]It is the Gentiles (the HELPLESS, the LAZARUS, the poor) that God is primarily dealing with today! Paul says there is to be only a "remnant" of Jews. His calling was to the nations. However, Paul knew that God was still calling a "few" of the Jews. "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh [Jews], and might save some of them" (Rom. 11:14).[/b]For nearly two thousand years now God is calling primarily the Gentiles,

GOD’S CALL IS NOW TO THE GENTILES

Lazarus [Eliezer] was: ", cast at his [Rich man’s] gate [portal], "

It was the "Gentiles" who were not allowed into the Royal and Priestly House of Judah. They could go no further than "The court of the Gentiles." Any blessings they received had to come to them from inside where they were never allowed to go! Though designated as "proselytes," they were, nonetheless, like "dogs" who only got the "crumbs" or scraps! Hence we find Lazarus cast "at the gate."

Little could these Jews hearing this parable realize that in just a few short years all this would change.

"Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you [Gentiles], who once are far off are become near by the blood of Christ. For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier [middle wall of partition] , He brings the evangel of peace to you [Gentiles] , for through Him we both [Jews and Gentiles] have had the access, in one spirit to the Father" (Eph. 2:13-18).

And so today, the Gentiles don’t have to stand outside the gate, or be separated by a barrier, or stay in their own court, and wait for handouts. They have direct access to God.

And who has been preaching the Evangel for the past two thousand years? The Jews? Hardly. It has been the Gentiles that have translated the Scriptures into nearly every language on earth. It is those called of the Gentiles that are accepting Christ Jesus as their Savior, not the Jews. It is really a rare thing to find Jews accepting Christ as the Messiah. And that’s why we find Lazarus [Eliezer--the Gentiles] in the bosom of Abraham, and the Rich man [the Jews] engulfed in flames of Anti-Semitism for the past two thousand years.

", having ulcers [full of sores], "

Lazarus is not full of sores in Abraham’s bosom. He has been healed. In fact, that’s what "salvation" meant in New Testament times. "Salvation" is a beautiful sounding Latin word, however, it was never part of the New Testament Greek Vocabulary. Not until six or eight centuries ago did the word "salvation" come into translations. Before that time it was "health" that was one’s salvation. And all of the very oldest Anglo-Saxon Scriptures translate it "health" not "salvation." So for Lazarus "health" in the bosom of Abraham was salvation!

Lazarus doesn’t represent materialistically poor Jews, but spiritually poor Gentiles. That’s the whole point here in the parable. Judah was rich and knew it! They were like the Laodiceans who said:

"I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" (Rev. 3:17).

", Father Abraham, be merciful to me, and send Lazarus that he should be dipping the tip of his finger in water, "

In figurative and symbolic language the Rich man asks for a drop of water on the tip of Lazarus’ finger. How appropriate! Who was it that refused to help the "poor" with so much as their little finger?

"For they [Judah] bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers" (Mat. 23:4).

", and spake unto Rehoboam [King of Judah], saying, , make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee. But he forsook the counsel of the old men , My little finger shall be thicker than my father’s loins , my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions" (I Kg. 12:7:11).

Now Judah begs the assistance of a finger from a poor man! And not just a poor man, but a poor Gentile! It was custom for pious Jews to cut a section of their garment off if it were so much as touched by the finger of a Gentile. Now the rich and lofty personification of God’s chosen people begs for the assistance of a Gentile FINGER.

"God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also" (Gal. 67).

", and cooling my tongue, "

It isn’t his flesh that he wants cooled from this flame, but his tongue. This man is frightened. His tongue is swelling. And well it should be. When people are petrified from fear their tongue dries and swells. That’s why some inexperienced speakers often need a whole glass of water just to get through a 10 minute speech.

David said:

"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion" (Psa. 137:1)

Well, God brought Judah back from Babylon to Jerusalem, but Judah didn’t have the same heart as King David. He failed to remember. David said:

", let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth , if I forget to remember Jerusalem."

It was because of Judah’s "tongue" that Jerusalem was destroyed in the first place:

"For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen; because their TONGUE and their doings are against the Lord, " (Isa. 3:.

So in the parable we find Lazarus (Eliezer--a Gentile) in the bosom of Abraham, and Judah, who should be there, on the other side asking for mercy. But Lazarus can’t come over to the Rich man even if he wanted to, because of this "chasm."

"And in all this, between us and you a great chasm [gulf] has been established."

WHAT IS THE GREAT GULF?

Earlier I showed you from the Greek that there is water in this gulf or chasm. What could this be all about? Certainly there is no literal chasm between hades (unseen) and Abraham’s bosom. What or where is this great chasm? Does the Bible speak of a great chasm that has anything to do with salvation or rewards?

When the Children of Israel made their exodus out of Egypt, they were on their way to the Promised Land. After receiving the Ten Commandments at Mt Sinai, where they stayed approximately one year, they headed north to Kadeshbarnea. They sent men to spy out the land. They were very close to Canaan. But God sentenced them to thirty-nine more years in the wilderness for their unbelief. How different they were from their ancient Father Abraham. After thirty-nine years they again headed north, only this time through Edom and Moab and approached the Jordan from the East. To get to the Promised Land they had to cross over the Jordan River Valley.

The River Jordan runs through a great chasm (or gulf).

From Mt. Nebo Moses could see the Promised Land. The Jordan is in a huge chasm. It’s a "far" way to the other side. This chasm, in fact, is so large that it may well be one of the largest fault lines on earth! It starts on the southern boundaries of Turkey and runs through Palestine, through the Dead sea, trough the Red Sea, through Africa to Lake Victoria. But some scientists and geologists believe it continues through Africa and the South Pole and reemerges again in the Pacific Ocean. Now that’s a "Great Chasm."

Because of Moses’ sin, God did not allow him to enter the Promised Land.

Crossing "over Jordan" has always been used symbolically as a type of "salvation." But just as Israel couldn’t cross the Red Sea except by a miracle of parting the waters, so too, God supernaturally dried up the Jordan so that they could cross over. So literally, they didn’t "get wet" crossing the Jordan; they didn’t "get baptized." And neither did most of the rulers of the Jews "get baptized" at John’s baptisms either!

It is always "God" who determines boundaries. Moses could not cross that chasm. And no one else could cross over except it were God’s intention. Just as Israel looked to the crossing over Jordan as their salvation in a new land, so we too, are looking for a future complete manifestation in Kingdom of God. And God alone determines who will and who won’t be in that Kingdom at this time.

In a real sense we too go into the Kingdom of God by way of the Jordan! Jesus was baptized in the River Jordan (Mat. 3:13). And

", whoever are baptized into Christ Jesus, are baptized into His death. We, then were entombed together with Him through baptism into death , For if we have become planted together in the likeness of His death, nevertheless we shall be of the resurrection also, " (Rom. 6:4-5).

Mortality kept the majority of Israelites from entering the Promised Land. The generation that started on this journey died in the wilderness. Only a remnant crossed over Jordan under the leadership of Joshua. And likewise, today, God is calling only a "remnant" to salvation:

"God does not thrust away His people whom He foreknew , Thus, then, in the current era also, there has come to be a remnant according to the choice of grace" (Rom. 11:2 & 5).

Mortality kept most of Israel out of the promised land, and by immortality we will enter the Kingdom of God in full spiritual glory:

"Lo! a secret , we all shall be changed , at the last trump , the dead will be roused , this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality (I Cor. 15:51-53).

And we enter the Kingdom under the new Joshua (Jesus) the Christ!

No matter what this gulf or chasm symbolizes, it is only "man" who cannot cross it. Nothing is impossible with God. And God has given His Son authority over EVERYTHING. It is blasphemy to even think that there is a gulf that cannot be bridged by the Almighty Jesus Christ!

Though not a place of eternal torture in fire, there is, nonetheless, a realm called "hades." It is an enemy of man and there are "gates" (not literal iron bar gates, but gates in the sense that passage is restricted to all who go therein). There are also gates and bars and locked doors in human prisons and penitentiaries.

But there are guards and wardens who have "keys" to these doors and gates--they CAN BE OPENED. Well guess what? There are also "keys" to the gates of hades and it is NOT SATAN WHO POSSESSES THEM! IT IS NOT SATAN WHO HAS POWER OVER LIFE AND DEATH AND RESURRECTION! Rev. 1:18:

"And I [Jesus] have the keys to hell [hades, the unseen] and of death."

It is senseless to boast in having "the keys" if those keys will never be used to open the locks on the gates! Not only does Christ have the keys to all doors, HE IS THE DOOR! When we enter HIS door, He enters OUR door and we dine together. One day Judah will knock on Christ’s door and He WILL OPEN to them.

Let’s read the good news:

", I will make a NEW Covenant with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah, For this is the Covenant that I WILL MAKE [future tense] with the house of Israel AFTER THOSE DAYS [those days of blindness and unregenerate hearts crying out from the symbolic gates of hades], saith the Lord; I will put my Laws INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people" (Heb. 8:8-10).

Judah had the "promises," the "Oracles" of God, the "Royalty," the "Priesthood," the "Seat of Moses," the "Temple of God," the "Ark of the Covenant," enormous "wealth and riches," the "Possession of the Land," and the prophesied "Messiah." But they crucified their only Savior! For this they will certainly go through many "tormenting" trials and afflictions, but the fire of God’s Holy Spirit will cleanse them of their sins and they WILL BE SAVED--ALL OF THEM!

If we would but believe these simple and profound Scriptures there would never be such distortions of God’s Word being taught as is the case with this parable.

THE RICH MAN’S SIN

"And in the unseen [hades], lifting up his eyes, existing in torments, "

Judah [the Jews] proved to be totally unworthy of their high calling. Their heart’s turned from the declarations of God. Claiming Abraham as their father did not exonerate them either.

"‘Our father is Abraham.’ Jesus answered them, ‘If you are children of Abraham, did you ever do the works of Abraham? Yet now you are seeking to kill me, a Man Who has spoken to you the truth, " (John 8:39-20)!

Not only were they no longer ", of the faith of Abraham," but they had, in fact, utterly corrupted themselves. After King David, Solomon broke God commandments and covenant (I Kg 11:11).

King Rehoboam said:

"And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke; my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions" (I Kg. 12:10-11).

", Judah kept not the commandments of the Lord, " (II Kg. 19:17)

And King Manasseh, of Judah, went from bad to worse:

", he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord after the abominations of the heathen , he built up again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed , he built altars in the house of the Lord , he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the Lord. And he made his sons pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealeth with familiar spirits and wizards; he wrought much wickedness , Manasseh seduced them to do more evil than did the nations whom the Lord destroyed, " (II Kg. 21:2-9).

"Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah has profaned the holiness of the Lord which He loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god." (Mal. 2:11).

HISTORIC AND PROPHETIC JUDAH

According to a "literal" teaching of this parable, the Rich man did nothing to deserve his torment. But once we identify this Rich man, however, we find a mountain of sins and evils that are attributed to him:

When John the baptist saw these same descendants of the Jews, the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptisms, he remarked: "progeny of vipers."

Our Lord used the most derogatory language possible in describing the Jews of the first century:

[b]"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good, " (Mat. 12:34)!

"And evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, " (Mat. 12:39)!

"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God, " (Mat. 15:3)!

"O faithless and perverse generation, " (Mat. 17:17)!

", John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not, " (Mat. 21:32)!

"Why tempt ye me, Ye hypocrites?" (Mat. 22:17)!

"But all their works they do for to be seen of men, " (Mat. 23:5)!

"But woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! (Ver 13)!

", ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (Ver 13)!

", for ye devour widows’ houses, " (Ver 14).

"Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold morethe child of gehenna than yourselves" (Ver 15).

"Woe unto you, ye blind guides, " (Ver. 16).

"Ye fools and blind, " (Ver. 17).

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of the mint and the anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith, " (Ver. 23).

"Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. (Ver. 25)

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! , whited sepulchres , full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness" (Ver. 27)

"Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Ye serpents. Ye generation of vipers, " (22-23)

"I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your Synagogues, and persecute them from city to city; That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, " (Ver. 34-35).

"BEHOLD YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT UNTO YOU DESOLATE (Ver. 38)!![/b]

Yes, there is more than ample reason for "Judah" finding himself in a "place of torment!" Can we see how God combines them all together? Christ said:

"Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets" and "Ye fill up then the measure of your fathers" (Ver. 32).

So why shouldn’t Christ picture the Jews in hades viewing this disaster of their race? Of course it is figurative! God often uses just such figurative language

", he voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground" (Gen. 4:10)

In Revelation chapter 6 the dead souls of those slain for the Word of God are crying out. This too is figurative. God wouldn’t allow His Conscious Saints to be all piled up on a bloody heap under an altar for thousands of years. Jonah was literally in ", the fish’s belly" (Jonah 2:1), but figuratively he called it ", the belly of hell [sheol=IMPERCEPTIBLE]" (Jonah 2:2).

And so we have the Rich man (Judah) "crying out from hades." Figuratively, it has great emotional power. The Jews corrupted themselves. In the person of Judah they see the result of their ways. Notice that the Rich man never said one word in his own defense. He knew what kind of a people he was. I find it hard to believe what I am reading when I see the terminology our Lord used against the Jews and their forefathers. Really, consider His words: adulterous, evil, transgressors, faithless, perverse, hypocrites, murderers, blind guides, fools, generation of snakes.

The Jews were given so much by God, but showed ever so little appreciation to God! They have suffered like few races of people have ever suffered. Lazarus, on the other hand, lived an untarnished life of faithfulness, and yet is promised nothing from God--neither material blessings nor spiritual blessings. In life he received "evil things." Abraham considered him worthy of inheriting all his possessionis. God, on the other hand, disinherited him. This was an "evil" to Eliezer. It was God’s wisdom in bringing this evil on Eliezer.

Little did these Jews know at the time that Christ spoke this parable, that it would be only thirty some years future that their beloved Jerusalem would once again be destroyed. But this time, God would also take from them the Temple and the Ark of the Covenant as well. And little did the Gentiles know that Saul [Paul] was already being prepared to take God’s spiritual blessings "to the nations." It will be Eliezer himself who will be the first Gentile to not only justify God in His actions, but glorify Him for the marvelous blessings that God has bestowed on the Gentiles.

For nearly two thousand years the Jews have been without the ark of the covenant or a Temple. The Jews have wandered from country to country for centuries never even having a country they could call their own until 1948 They have been persecuted everywhere they lived! This greatest persecution and slaughter took place during Hitler’s death camps when reportedly six to seven million Jews were exterminated!

[b][size=13pt]The Rich man said " I am tormented in this flame." If one checks all the parables it becomes evident that most of them were prophecies. And therefore "flames" is most appropriate in describing the plight of the Jews through the millennia. Not just the "Flames of Anti-Semitism," but even literally--remember "Hitler’s ovens?"[/[/size]b]

Till today, Judah is still crying out from the unseen.

And so the Rich man’s thoughts turn to "his father’s house" and his "five brothers." What will happen to them? Even if they didn’t hear Moses and the prophets, surely, if "someone should be going to them from the dead, they will be repenting."

"Yet he said to him, ‘If Moses and the prophets they are not hearing, neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead.’"

Well how could Abraham know that for a fact? Because it is really Christ who is speaking, and it’s a parable, and it also is a prophecy of things to come, and Christ knows all.

Ironically, the only person ever resurrected from the dead that we know by "name" at this time was Martha’s brother Lazarus. Did that miracle persuade the Jews? Actually, yes, many.

"Many of the Jews, then, who came to Mary and gaze at what Jesus does, believe in Him" (Jn 11:45).

[size=15pt]Yet when other Jews reported this miracle back to the Pharisees

"From that day, they [the Jewish leaders] consult that they should kill Him" (Jn. 11:53)!

It seems like it’s always the religious leaders that have the most trouble believing![/size]

But how many of these "many who believed" stayed faithful? When Christ began teaching them really "spiritual things," many could not handle it. Christ told them that "The flesh is not benefiting anything" (Jn 6:63). That was more than they would tolerate as most "Christians" today do not tolerate such a thought either, and therefore:

"From that time many of His disciples went back, and walked NO MORE with Him" (Jn. 6:65-66)!

This parable, however, is not speaking about Lazarus’ resurrection, but Christ’s resurrection from the dead. All of Judea did not know of the resurrection of Lazarus, but everyone heard about the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Not only the Jewish leaders who killed Him, but all Jerusalem, all of the Rich man’s brothers and everywhere the descendants of his brothers were scattered: (1) Jerusalem, (2) Judea, (3) Samaria, (4) The limits of the land (Acts 1:, and (5) to the dispersed among the nations. And the message sent to all these Jews, everywhere, was that the Christ whom they crucified has risen from the dead.

Interesting reading for those who will learn and are not proud to accept truth. It also shows the status quo has not changed. The system is still thesame and just as the Pharisees and Sadduccees (MOGs of Christ's time) were the ones who missed it, its their same-type that is still missing it today.

Let him who has ears hear

Summary of rebuttal

We know the rich man was not accused of any sin and Lazarus was not praised for doing good. As an aside, wouldn't this actually mean Joagbaje and Chris Oyakilome are headed for Hell IF THIS WAS THE STANDARD OF GOD's JUSTICE? Because the story implies all those wealthy/comfortable on earth are headed for fire and all who suffer now are headed for paradise. yeah right - including all those poor guys killing children in the north.

If hell is truly as it is pictured in this story, then the saved will be able to view the lost who are burning there. Which person will enjoy eternal existence in heaven while looking at lost friends, family, and acquaintances being incinerated in hell, yet never burning up? What type of heaven isd that? Andd if hell is an abyss of fire and brimstone where sinners are tormented forever, does anyone really believe that one drop of water would relieve the pain and anguish of someone suffering in its flames? How would it get (COLD) to his lips to slake his thirst?

^^^ Parables are allegorical and meant to pass across a message. Truth is factual and simply informative i.e. whether you learn from it or not does not matter.

So lets look at "Lazarus and the Rich Man".

If it was a factual story, all that was said would be true. In short, if any part of it is untrue, then Christ was lying.

In the story, Lazarus already had his reward - Paradise and the Rich man already had his reward - hellfire. Could someone please tell me when they were judged? And on what basis were they judged? The Bible does NOT tell us that Lazarus was righteous and neither does it inform us that the rich man was unrighteous. Here's what it says of the two

The rich man Lazarus

Rich Poor
Wore Purple Not mentioned
Made merry daily diseased and laid down
gave lazarus scraps hungry
died and buried died
lifts eyes from hades carried into abraham's bosom
tormented
ALIVE with a body ALIVE with a body (after death??)
desires a drop of water (what will that do and won't it vaporize b4 getting to him in HELL-FIRE)
got good while alive got evil while alive
exhibits love to his family EVEN in torment
Pleads for family's welfare

What shows above in both left and right column - can we compare to any other scripture as being criteria for heaven/hell? As a matter of fact, taken literally, this parable is unscriptural, contradictory and impossible.

So what do these things mean? Because if we too say its allegorical, we have to provide explanation so we understand the symbolism of this story.

We must know the real identity of these two individuals before we can know that their treatment is a just treatment based on their lives and based on God’s grace. Once their identity is revealed, it will be obvious this was just allegory - a parable

But maybe one last rebuttal first

I see that we have to take this to a logical conclusion.

Lets start with background - Christ spoke ONLY in Parables to the multitude. He never spoke plainly to them.

"And He begins to speak to them in parables." (Mark 12:1).

"All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them, " (Matt 13:34).

Jesus spoke in parables so that his listeners would not understand His Words

"Wherefore art Thou speaking in parables to them? , To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has NOT been given." (Matt, 13:10-11).

Interestingly, even the apostles didn't understandd these parables (Lk, 16:14)! But because they humbled themselves and made themselves available not saying "well, He has given understanding to us", Jesus explained their meaning to them in private (Mat. 13:18, 36), (Mat. 15:15)

The fact that Jesus spoke to the masses in parables only, ought to be sufficient Scriptural evidence to anyone that "Lazarus and the Rich man" is indeed a parable.

But we're just starting.

I'll be right Back.

Waiting for the "god" that wants to know just how human/divine they truly are and will challenge the statement that the Story of lazarus and the Rich man was JUST a Parable.

No takers? ? Afraid? Sweaty palms? Wondering if "ol Jeri Curls" has truly been lying? Suddenly seeing holes in your theology?

Please - Let us plead together. Show us your strong reasons. Declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

Or behave like the Ostrich and hide your heads in sand!

"Lazarus & rich man" was a PARABLE

^^^ Speculative posts, untruthful and geared towards forcing a preconceived notion into scripture and not losing face in the presence of overwhelming evidence.

Simple question - we know when Christ, Paul, David, Abraham and Daniel lived at least relative to other people. When did this Lazarus live and where? Christ the Nazerene, Paul/Saul of Tarsus, Peter the fisherman and Lazarus, brother to Mary/Martha. Who was this one?

Place Lazarus or the Rich man. Where did they live and who were their families? What tribe/nationality were they? Name any members of their families.

Anyway, its nice to know that CEC PLC gets doctrine once they don't see the statement "and the kingdom of God is likened to". Just how far are you people ready to go to sell lies?

Please don't run away this time though - this time let the trap catch whoever's lying

e36991:
@nuclearboy

Na only prosperity teachings churches dey teach nowadays naa

Oops! Who said that?!!

YOU did. So please take over and teach truth now here.

@Aunty Nuella:



You're very funny. So funny that its no longer funny

Firstly, please name 2 or 3 people you know who live just 1 feet UNDER the ground! Note I did not say in caves or under Camp David or in bomb shelters but UNDER earth. So when Christ descended into the "lower" parts, how low do you think He had to go?   And was it physically?

The phrase "Above all heavens" proves the point - is above heaven a physical location anyway? So why do you insist lower parts must be physical?

Lazarus was REAL?   Please tell us when he lived and where?

@e36991:

Help!! This class needs someone more patient, friendly and "trusted". Nuke is an enemy so , , , . [size=5pt]who wants to listen to enemies[/size]

Exactmente!

This was a fable used to drive home an understanding but here we see it turned into doctrine by people who would know better if they spent more time on their knees and with God in study rather than under hair dryers.

Abraham's Bosom refers to as it were, the "hope of the saints" after their earthly sojourn. That's why his ancestors could be in such a place and its why I set that trap for Aunty earlier but she missed the bait.

Interesting (and funny and MOST OF ALL illuminating of their understanding) though that some people think dead people climbed into someone's boobs and lived there after they died.

Wetin person no go see/hear

^^ That scathing intellect has been sorely missed.

Interestingly, it DOES require complication and ignoring for those who are afraid to face God alone & on His terms and thus require an intermediary (probably so they can absolve selves of responsibility when the chips are down).

But the above is brilliant and shows how honesty deduces truth even in the midst of deliberate systemic falsehood

We all believe/claim that Adam would have lived forever but His spiritual death triggered his physical death. Spiritual death made his flesh corruptible.

Jesus on the other hand, took in His flesh an unfair weight - Sin (which did not belong there) and died physically. But while the spirit can kill the flesh, the flesh cannot kill the spirit. His Spirit did (could) not die and thus the grave could not hold him. A new incorruptible body was "generated" for Him and thus He rose, this time for eternity

^^

More likely a trinity of sorts. Father - head marketer, son - support my husband, spirit - fight the bad fight.

But definitely the same person - chris Yaks manifested

@e36991:

Jesus "took upon Himself" the sins of all & there was a turning away by the Father. But was it His Spirit that carried the sin or His Body?

I believe Isaiah 53 shows us the answer here. The iniquities were laid upon His FLESH. Spiritually, He remained pure (which was why He recognised the moments of separation anyway). There exists understanding that even when He was on the cross i.e. whist carrying the weight of sin, that Christ could have called upon Angels and they would have responded in real time. At the moment of His death, the veil of the Holy of Holies was torn, not 3 days later when He rose. The darkness that covered the land --> was that a spiritual harbinger or physical? Are these signs of spiritual death or Spiritual Aliveness?

He "laid down" His life willingly. That is a physical gesture, and physical death, not spiritual death which would cause separation of the type Adam had which was losing salvation. Jesus was/is salvation! He NEVER lost it

@Donnie

Please don't let yourself become a tool in the hands of people with hidden agendas. Your question is already answered by the passage - they came from "graves". They were captives of the graves. Did you ever read "o death, where is your sting? O grave where is your victory?" These Formerly victorious graves opened giving them up? Or would you say David was in Hell? After he wrote "Thou shalt not suffer Thy Holy One to see corruption"? Is it not the grave that brings corruption even today? Or is it hell? can't you see the contradictions in your belief system?

Also, go back to Nuella's assertions that these saints were in "Abraham's Bosom" which she also said meant "Paradise". Based on that which you agree to, is Paradise Hell?

Careful study and a bit of patience will show you that your teachers make these things up as they go along just to please people

lets be specific - which Greek Bible? By the way, NIV sucks and its translations are not trustworthy

^ Shey you sef see the "sharp" move, Ehn?

Above post directed at Donnie, not James Bond

^^ that's probably the first post I've seen from you that "tries" to make sense but you sadly are still just regurgitating the falsehoods peddler to you and thus both started & ended twisting reality into something else in the name of revelation knowledge.

Do you know how many times Jesus was called Drunkard, Glutton, said to be using evil powers, etc? I don't - but I know how many times it bothered Him - Zero. It is the standard of history. Truth is called evil in an attempt for evil to triumph but never does it scar. That is why all the "you are not born again" and insults you throw our way doesn't bother us. But when we call Yaks Yaps his names - conman, fake, etc, it is painful because it is truth and truth is bitter.

Again you find - "shalt thou" but then you move the comma (which is fine). But you then CHANGE God's Word to "thou shalt". In effect, you make the Word fit your preconceived notions or rather, your argument. There is a curse on such manipulation of God's Word. And stop being fooled. Hebrew/Greek dictionaries fill the web - only criminals find excuses to support their contrary gospels.

On the cross, Jesus promised the thief they'd be together in His Kingdom that very night.

This single scripture destroys Copelands assertion above because if Jesus went to hell that day as Copeland wishes we believe, was that the promise He made to the thief? Is Jesus then a liar, that fooled the thief taking him to hell rather than the heaven He promised?

But same scripture goes further and also destroys the decisionism gospel because we do not see the thief accepting Jesus as Lord & Savior and "claiming" salvation but just asking for mercy. This then is salvation - an absolute gift of God, not based on your claims but the state of your heart and the Grace of God.

It beats imagination how Paul could write "run the good race" and "work out your salvation" yet supposedly educated people will believe they won that race at the beginning (simply by saying Jesus is Lord) rather than the end when they cross the tape. Jesus used parables that babes understood. The Apostles and Bible examples worked out their salvation; living for God i.e. They "died" to self and Jesus lived through them. Their actions were His, they gave of themselves for love rather than gain, not once do we see a "senior" and in fact, Christ Himself said the greatest would be the servant, not the big man on the stage who "ordains" those who he has discipled and then calls them pastors, evangelists, etc.

It was the over-confidence possessing religious guys that always missed it.  In Jesus day, they held on to men's traditions and today, they still insist it is them that is alive and thus claim the world as their right and expect God bend to their will.

Deep calleth unto deep so its expected - those of the world will chase and call unto the world even if in their mouths, they say a different thing. God already told us they honor Him with mouth but their hearts are far from Him.

Let those who have ears hear