₦airaland Forum

DeepSight Baba!

One thing we all know about DeepSight - HE will not stop or leave it be! Let's leave it as it is, please?

Suffice it to say then, that what you understood as the basis for comparision differs from the point of view held by Pastor)AIO and Mad_Max. Once taken in that context, both arguments are quite strong!

Oga mi Pastor_AIO:

Of course you know you're baiting me by asking if I'd like to read something from you - if it can hold YOUR attention long enough for you to go through four pages of it, I'm sure it's more than sensible.

Please put it up but on a new thread so we don't derail this thread!

Great. Finally I'm understood! This is all about the "divinity/success over trials" COMBINED WITH "humanity/process of trials".

I may have used wrong words but the concept is looking at life "on this side of eternity" as a function of Jesus' life and the purpose(s) it served i.e. what purpose is OUR own life serving?!

Civilizations have always existed. I spoke in the context of the world stage - how many empires of world status have there been on earth?

@Jenwitemi:

re: "A very myopic and small-minded statement".

Insults are my forte! I assure you of that. This is the second time you're pushing me. You would be well served considering that the quote I made and bolded did not come from me but from http://www.jewishhistory.org/hyksos-or-hebrews/ Call them whatever you wish but stop following me around like you're seeking hausa manhood rites and need to prove yourself. Its not worth it to give offence when none was offered you!

^^^ Yeah, ten thousand miracles yet not one supported by human or medical observation. Just faceless voices behind sim cards bought for 150 Naira each claiming "yes, chris did it". What a travesty!

Basically then, Joagbaje, you come on NL, call everybody a babyteeth when you feel like, tell us everyone must speak with tongues when the Apostle Paul asked if it was all that did so, tell us adam was bisexual (having both s.exual organs) until God removed Eve from him, ask us if magic exists (even when the Bible says it does) etc etc etc and expect people to accept your lies.

So you then, have right and can insult us all and deliberately misquote the Bible to propagate heresies but when called what Jesus HIMSELF called your type in His days, you say we are full of junk.

What was Jesus full of when He called the Pharisees "White washed Sepulchres"? What was Jesus full of when He grabbed a whip and beat people who had turned the Temple into a business center? What was Paul full of when he rebuked Peter?

Your problem is you don't have a self! A man's self is the part of him that thinks, decides and acts. You have given oversight function of your life to another human and thus a radio could be considered your better- at least, it can be turned off. You are "yaks yaps unlimited"!

The sermons I want to hear are the following

[1] why your pastor chris fries his hair (and possibly brain) when the Bible tells even women to cloth themselves not with vanity but modesty.
[2] the one explaining why its always CE in the news for fraud, setting up fake healings etc and why I should submit myself to such lies when they push so many to crime and error
[3] the one explaining the heresies you spout here e.g. the Apostles of Christ were wrong AND Adam used to "sleep" with himself before God cut him into two.

Dude, you have so much stress on your back that a Camel wouldn't stand under the weight you carry. Self righteous postulations don't help you - I have given examples of where Jesus behaved exactly as I do (in word and deed though I didn't whip you yet). Please give an example of where He lied like you or faked healings or kabbashed idiocy or selectively answered questions that suited Him alone.

I await your pleasure but know you won't dare reply the above aside senile excuses, if that!

The title of this thread - "Re: Disbelief In Yahweh As The Creator God". Yahweh is the "God" of the Hebrews, not so?

I'd like views on the following statement then - "All of Jewish history is played against the backdrop of world history, but all of world history is intertwined with the Jewish people." Why the Jews? Why not say the Egyptians who were a world power? Why not Medo-Persia that followed? Why not Greece? Why not Rome? Each of these 4 empires was little known until it came into prominence as a world power and after that, zilch!

Why a tiny collection of tribes which seem to have usurped and upset every single period in history, including the present? Always, everywhere these people have been at the center of most any issues on the world stage! What then does that suggest about them and their "God"? And why does every single religious belief of standing have "much" in common with the primary belief of Christianity? Much as stated, of course, is subject to interpretation. But even Ifa of yoruba land has "ELA" the deliverer, who came to earth through a virgin and would lead all that followed Him to heavenly bliss.

A lot (too many) of coincidences makes doubt a proposition somewhat "deliberate", in my opinion. And the evidence, as it were, demands an unbiased verdict!

Couldn't find the exact link though I searched hours. This link carries an idea of that one http://www.imninalu.net/Hyksos.htm


Further Speculations! 

History

http://www.jewishhistory.org/hyksos-or-hebrews/

then

", the price of twenty shekels of silver paid for Joseph in Genesis 37:28 is the correct average price for a slave in about the 18th century B.C.   Earlier than this, slaves were cheaper (average ten to fifteen shekels), and later they became steadily dearer. This is one more little detail true to its period in cultural history."

-- Ancient Orient and Old Testament, by K.A. Kitchen


"In the last verses of Genesis it is told how Joseph adjured his relatives to take his bones back to Canaan whenever God should restore them to their original home, and in Joshua 24:32 it is told how his body was indeed brought to Palestine and buried in Shechem. For centuries there was a tomb at Shechem reverenced as the Tomb of Joseph (see photo to left). A few years ago the tomb was opened. It was found to contain a body mummified according to the Egyptian custom, and in the tomb, among other things, was a sword of the kind worn by Egyptian officials."

-- Prophets, Idols and Diggers
    book by John Elder


"It is the location of of Ra'amses and Succoth that is established beyond reasonable doubt. Though earlier sought in the eastern delta at the site of Zoan/Tanis (San el-Hagar), Ra'amses must be placed at Qantir (Tell ed-Dab'a), some 17 miles to the southwest (see map above). Furthermore, it seems conclusive that that was also the site of the Hyksos capital, known in the period as Avaris. Excavators have discovered archaeological remains at Tell ed-Dab'a indicating that it was a large habitational site in the Hyksos era and into parts of the New Kingdom period. The artifacts dug up at the site (pottery, utensils, burial wares, etc.) do not conform to Egyptian typology, but rather to what is found in contemporary layers in Palestine. In The Ancient Near East: A History, the authors comment, "Archaeologically, it is as if the site were actually in Palestine."  Just north of the tell a tile factory was found where glazed blue tiles were manufactured for use in the palatial estates of the pharaohs. And in the environs of this installation were found certain ostraca that actually bear the name of Ra'amses. This was the locale in which the Israelites lived and from which the Israelites began their journey.

In a word, it appears that the biblical, historical, and archaeological data are best served by theorizing that it was a Hyksos monarch before whom Joseph stood as an interpreter of dreams (Gen. 41:14-37) and who later ceded a choice parcel of land (Goshen) to Joseph's family (Gen. 47:6). According to such a theory, the "new king" of Exodus 1:8 would have been one of the native Egyptian monarchs of the New Kingdom who, as part of his Hyksos purge, resolutely refused to recognize the validity of the Goshen land grant. Discerning in the Israelites a multitude who might very well join with his Asiatic enemies in war, this new king moreover acted quickly to enslave the Israelites.

The above-mentioned theory also fits well with the historical profile attested in the book of Genesis. The patriarchs moved in and through Palestine for some 215 years (cf. Gen. 12:4; 21:5; 25:26; 47:9), seemingly with the greatest of ease, mobility and freedom. Yet, it is inconceivable that their movements should have gone unnoticed (e.g., Gen. 14:14). That bespeaks a political climate in Palestine that would have been free from any sort of national or international domination, which is truly characteristic of that period between 1850 and 1550 B.C. The theory might also humanly explain how Joseph, a non-Egyptian, was able to rise to a position of Grand Vizier in a foreign land -- the court itself would not have been Egyptian, but Hyksos. It also might explain why there is no historical mention of Joseph.

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/joseph.htm

Thanks. Agree about the 3PH. Just they have that high startup cost and you have little (if any) help from PHCN which is so much cheaper as power.

One issue - I find the four wheel PF consumes so much more fuel than the 2 wheel. Rather than 4WD, the 2WD (at least the 05 upwards models - don't know about the older ones) has something they call VDC (vehicle dynamic control) which by default is on and limits the car to 268 HP or something like that. If you get stuck, switch it off (just press the button) and the car roars to 310HP. I haven't seen anyplace it doesn't climb out of and I have interests in the bush (small farm).

Makes me wonder - why pay extra for the 4WD only to spend more on fuel yet not particularly gaining anything. Most people here wouldn't dream of taking even a 2001 PF through a farm road so why 4WD. Worth considering for anyone wanting to buy a 4wd.

Always such fun to discuss with someone with a brain. Most times, NL posters _ _ _ k

Where I have issues with your argument is that wikipedia has this thing - anyone, bar anyone, can serve whatever they like on wikipedia. It isless credible than the Bible it seeks to usurp seeing as there has been at least, an attempt to confirm the Bible's claims.

Science accepting the plagues did happen does support the Bible in its assertions - remember these things come from a very long time ago. The simple fact that writings confirmed to be at least 2, 500 years old tell a factual and exactly precise story, supports the writings. You would be hard pressed to find myths from other religions or histories replicated as factually in other religions or histories. Here on NL, we have the situation replicated each time we say the reason the Arabs got it wrong was because the stories of Christianity came from another religion/history rather than from Islam itself.

I agree totally that James Cameron put forward his own ideas and they cannot be "stood" upon. But I put it there to counter your wikipedia stuff which in my opinion, has as much weight - basically then, both sources were speculative and saying what suited them.

I have not seen any information as to the credibility of the idea that the Hyskos ever invaded Egypt in the sense of warfare. What I have read informed they were a peoples who lived on the edge of Egypt as "paid warriors" (auxillary forces) to the Eghptians. Their increasing numbers gave rise to fears within egyptian aristocracy that they would likely pose a threat later and this informed a systematic decimation of these people by the egyptians. I cannot for the life of me remember the link (will search for it) but I remember that in it, speculations were rife as to these people being the "enslaved" Hebrews who later attacked when they left by taking all the wealth, as it were, of Egypt. Again this is a lot of speculation but as one of the quotes I put up above reads, once it is NOT impossible and there is no other possibility, it must be truth even if improbable. Just thoughts anyway.

Enjoy your days

ICE is fine - just got a perkins/stamford 65kv (soundproof) and should be going up to 24 compressors from the 9 I had before. Only thing is this speed thing which is making me consider a 3 phase 10 hp power unit (should do under 3 hours) - but the cost? I just hope it won't break the bank or my back

Any way you can help get some of this fluid across? On my knees here cos the joy of that amazing acceleration fades once you remember the transmission may go konk.

@Kunle-A:

Any ideas about 05/06 models?

I have both (one standard specs, 2nd leather,dvd etc) bought simply due to the beauty and acceleration but now hear they bring up transmission issues (brutally expensive as they say) though not confirmed personally.

Only prob I've noted is with the fuel guage which has a mind of its own and keeps tripping the "service engine soon" light. Any info?

Hello Toluxa:

Long time, no post from you. Or have you moved to other sections?

My point here actually, was the "life and aspirations" of Jesus. His life showed love, sacrifice and a looking ahead unto the other side. A study of the lives of His apostles also show they were not overtly concerned with here but with the other side of eternity. All strove for the betterment of the human and the society. Today, its the other way - we mostly forget we have a model to follow and chase earth at the expense of heaven.

Read this thread then, as a reminder that the focus for the believer is love, sacrifice, a desire to better society as much as possible etc.

@Babaearly:

read the above - what would I gain from apostasy? Again I say, its meant to prick our consciences about what the Christian life is meant to be.

@SirJohn:

you offered them 500, 000 and Kenyan/drmightie hasn't come to claim? Maybe CE has threatened to take back the "miracle" if she proves she was truly made well

@Enigma:

Got your point but I wonder - should a question on "magic tricks of this post modern era", as Baba-Jo puts it, be asked on a religious board? Which religion's adherents would be best placed to answer such a question? Is this "clarification" not then, a "fall-back technique"?

Do you get my point now?

@Joagbaje

@Image of a simpleton:

The word is compliments, not complements. Yet my words were not made as you would wish but for correction. You really need to brush up on your grammar. And I seek correction on a daily basis - it helps me progress and thus, prosper. Thus, it would be nice to find enlightenment. Problem here is that I never did see how darkness illuminated light. You are silly, ignorant, proud and self serving - how that can correct anyone beats me.

@Joagbaje:

Anytime I want to respond to what you write, I wonder if I am replying a human or a cheap radio which spouts what it is (as it were) told from the station (headquarters). With "be followers together of me", you're trying to create a doctrine which effectively says "be worshippers together of me"? Is that what the Bible says? for this shows the truth about you -

"I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear unto you.Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. For, as I have often told you before and now again say even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things " Phi 3: 14 - 19

@Joagbaje AGAIN:

Can you imagine a better description for you than "your god is your stomach" and "your mind is on earthly things"? And as I always tell you, I read the Bible not ROR so you cannot confuse me like your acolytes. Compare what the Bible says to the lie you tried to pass off here. And of course, you're hoping I don't know what it says and Image123's idiotic out of scripture testimony will help your cause. How does "follow good example" become "FOLLOW MAN"?

LIAR. THIEF! Son of his tummy!

Jenwitemi:
^^^^ Another dichotomy to quarrel over? You guys just keep on creating more and more schizms amongst yourselves, more means of divide to war over. Una no dey taya? Are your lives that empty? Are the holes in your lives so great that you would need endless supply of dramas to fill them up? Jesus weeps for una.

Abi? Our lives are so empty that we seek for things THAT concern us to quarrel over! Sad. Yet how would you compare that to you, seeking things THAT DO NOT concern you to stick your muzzle into? For if I am jobless concerning what concerns me, you then are definitely twice jobless engaging in what does not concern you.

Dude, go get a life that has that meaning you boast of, instead of joining in issues that you say are empty yet occupy your life. Abi na emptiness be your ambition?

Those whom I wrote to, know themselves and understand the issue.

As usual, very boring and without imagination. Typical of a lazy unregenerated mind filled with delusions of grandeur and unbecoming pretensions of righteousness. Vague asinine ramblings which lack substance and are better suited to a junior high school student.

A word of advice - don't shake your head too hard - whats between your ears is so small it will likely drop out. Anyway, you might not even notice!

Jesus was the revealed Man - human yet divine. A root out of "DRY" ground. A man full of sorrows, not of any beauty or majesty to attract any to Him, despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows; familiar with suffering. From Him, men hid their faces. A person who was pierced for the transgressions of many, crushed for the iniquities of others.  Because the Spirit of the Lord was upon Him, He preached the good news, He bound up the broken-hearted, He proclaimed freedom to captives, He released prisoners of darkness. He proclaimed the year of the Lord's favor and the day of vengeance of the Almighty. He comforted all who mourned, provided for those who grieved, bestowed upon us all a crown of beauty rather than ashes, oil rather than mourning. All He did considered the welfare of others and truth. The poor were His constituency, the down-trodden His friends. He cared not for this world but looked to the coming Glory. Oppressed and afflicted, He was led like a lamb to slaughter.

Christ is the Anointed one - who has triumphed over death and has all power on earth and in Heaven. Called God who sits at the right hand of God. He is the Judge, Lion of Judah, Wonderful Counsellor, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. It is His Kingdom that has no end and He will reign from that time on and forever.

They are the same yet different in a sense: one revealed the other. Which do we serve today? But more importantly, which do we FOLLOW? Are we seeking triumph and power. Do we have plans to become Kings "today" even when Christ Himself became King only AFTER He completed His earthly mission? Or are we built for love, to build up our neighbor as well as ourselves? Do we truly care what happens to others or is this just a means of becoming a "big man".

The life of Jesus and His Apostles shows us a way - They shook off "here" and held on to "there"! Are we following that way or jumping to the finish line (go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200, seems apt here) believing that is the way of God.

Thoughts to ponder on! 

^^ I had actually thought to reply you from Scripture (as usual). However, good sense told me to keep peace and I'm grateful I did. The amazement shown by EVERY SINGLE PERSON who responded to you shows the truth of the matter. Your donkey-like insistence that wrong is right has also helped me understand that responding to your delusions makes you feel "high" and believe yourself of consequence.

Your world is too limited, Friend and you can't go far on lies. Truth will serve you better!

^^^ Exactly! Others get it. "Pastor" does not

^^

?? ?? ?? ??

This is sad!

I'm liking yommyuk more and more . The above is brilliant

Joagbaje:
I've studied the bible well and I know even about paul's encounter with men who wrought "Curious art" (magic) . We are not dealing with oriental times now. I just doing a personal research. So don't box me in. I read quoran. I read about other faiths. I should be well informed to reach them at their level.

I believe in the bible. Whatever you mean by that.

You've studied the Bible "WELL" and you believe in it. But the Bible says "there is Magic" and even gives you an example and here you are on NL, (a supposed pastor) asking IS MAGIC REAL?

Then you say

Joagbaje:
this response is more like it. Except for the fact that you don't believe miracles

the above in response to

QUOTE
There is no spirituality or any metaphysical factor in performing magic. Just tricks.
UNQUOTE

So tricks are more like it than the Bible, ko?

I think the problem is that you don't consider who you claim to be when you post and then show haughtiness and self-righteousness to try to recover which just worsens your position. Did you read the Bible verse I gave you about requirements for a Bishop? Go back and look at the part that talks of "the way the outside world looks at him"

Cos me I like you. But you seem not to like youself

Horatio mazaje

The point is that they happened and Moses knew about them "in advance". My posts show I do not subscribe to the Bible thumping brigade's ideas of the world being 6, 000 years old or much stuff like that so please discuss with me and not with them "through me". [1] The plagues happened. [2] these preceded Israel leaving Egypt. Once these two are stated, it is puerile to say the Biblical exodus was non-historical thus proving the "scholars" and "archaelogists" you quoted deliberately twisted fact to push forward their own agenda. OR they are ignorant of scientific findings and thus purely opinionated and not worthy of the term "science".

I would believe from what you've put up on NL in the past you will not take opinions as fact, at least not deliberately.

Though highly subject to criticism, there was recently a documentary made by "James Cameron" and titled "Exodus decoded" which pushes forward another theory for the crossing of the red sea which whist "subject to a lot of debate", provides a theory for the crossing. He asserts that the Israelites crossed the "reed sea" and that a mistake in translation had that as "RED SEA". The reed sea is only inches deep in some portions and tide out brings that water depth to practically nothing. The Biblical narrative has Moses expelled from Egypt earlier in his life and having to wander on his own for a long time till he got to Midian. The idea is that Moses likely found out about the "tidal patterns" of the reed sea whist banished. At the time of the exodus, he led Israel to the low spots, waited til tide was out and they walked across what would have seemed to them (not knowing anything about the reed sea tidal patterns) as a miracle i.e. it was Moses who parted the sea.

Egypt in pursuit suddenly found Israel almost on the other side and followed - but with chariots laden with heavily armored men. These were bogged down and then the tides came back in.

I would expect a sincere human to understand that God will rarely take out of nature. With such a story as the ten plagues and crossing, is it impossible knowing they took place, that God used the forces of nature (which He created anyway) to achieve the plagues and crossing? Why was it at the exact time Moses was entreating Pharaoh and threatening him that the "burgundy blood" algae decided to show up? Was the global warming caused by a higher pepper level in food leading to particularly flatulent farting across the continents of the world? Did the ancients know about algae that color water. Or that such would force frogs out of their habitat? Or that the death of such would create a population explosion in gnats, lice and insects which would afflict cattle and flocks, killing them etc etc? Yet Moses knew about them in the exact order they came about - that is the miracle here; that and science claiming it was natural and keeping quiet about how a shepherd knew about it!

But we are not discussing miracles here. The point is the Bible story is historical throwing out the "facts" of the "scholars and archaelogists" you quoted. As science finds more evidence of historical happenings and discovers more, time will throw out the others - count on it.

mazaje:
there is NO evidence any where els beside the Hebrew text that the Israelis were ever enslaved in Egypt in the first places, the Egyptians have no record of them ever being enslaved in Egypt. . .

The ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus suggested in his work Contra Apion that the Hyksos were, in fact, the ancient Hebrews. It is incontestable that Hyksos lived under Egyptian rule in Egypt. Other names that have been used for Hebrews in history include Hiberu and Apiru, described in Wikipedia as " names given by various Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, Hittite, Mitanni, and Ugaritic sources (dated, roughly, from before 2000 BC to around 1200 BC) to a group of people living as nomadic invaders in areas of the Fertile Crescent from Northeastern Mesopotamia and Iran to the borders of Egypt in Canaan." They are "variously described as nomadic or semi-nomadic, rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, and bowmen, servants, slaves, migrant laborers, etc."

But your post above would have us believe that Yoruba history, if not containing the word "Yoruba-Yoruba", used by ibos to describe us, would be vacuous and a lie if it doesn't use that word itself in talking about yorubas? So let me ask you, are there "Yoruba-ngbatis"? Look again at wikipedias description - "variously described as nomadic or semi-nomadic, rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, and bowmen, servants, slaves, migrant laborers, etc." Does this not accurately describe the Biblical description of the Hebrews? BTW, the Hyksos lived on the border of Egpyt in the lands called Goshen by the Hebrews.

You then go ahead to say

mazaje:
I will love to see the archeological or scientific evidence that says that the red sea was once divided into two using a rod for the Jews to cross over, last time I checked even the Christians archeologist were lost as to the right route the Jews would have taken if the story were true. . . .The exodus remains NON HISTORICAL. . . .It has all the elements of a myth contained in it, Firstly the real name of the Pharaoh of Egypt was NEVER mentioned in the bible, which is very telling, All Egyptian pharaohs had names, the bible fails to mention the name of the pharaoh whom the story revolves around. . . .Over a 100 years of archeology finds NOTHING to support the exodus narrative. . .

The "reed sea", not red sea (though speculative, as ALL THINGS SCIENCE HAS NO ANSWERS FOR)! and the rest of your post has all the elements of a decision to refuse ALL evidence - 1st you JUDGE it never took place and then hinge that on what? [1] non-knowledge of route. (can you show me the house YOUR grandfather's grandfather was born in probably less than 300 years ago? Abi he never existed too?) But your reasoning insists he never existed because you can't find evidence of a trail used over 3,000 years ago [2] elements of myth [man can never fly talkless go to space said 300 years ago]. [3] you don't know the Pharaohs name!  why would they name the Pharaoh? For science today in its search for answers, it may look important but of what import was it to the Hebrews? Were they considering 3000 years ahead (oh, write down the dudes name cos science would want to know it to "confirm" we went through all these). Then you say "over 100 years of archaelogy has found nothing to support it"  How many years did it take to discover the "RED SEA SCROLLS"?  But of course, the red sea scrolls never existed and still don't, ehn? And aircraft? They too were a lie out of a deluded brain, ehn, in 1820! Well we're in 2010 and they exist. Wait till the evidence is found rather than JUDGING it doesn't exist BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE IT IS.

As time passes, more and more is found but its difficult to say we were oh, so wrong; so science explains it away. Which is fine by us. Truth stands whether you acknowledge it or no.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article601300.ece

Please note the following words in the article

QUOTE
Scientists and historians have long speculated that the 10 “plagues” suffered by Egypt might have been linked in a “domino theory” of natural causes.
UNQUOTE

Note there is no suggestion they didn't take place, just an attempt to explain them away.

Atheist Horatio: O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!

Believer Hamlet: And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

— God Shakespeare, Hamlet

mazaje: With the exception of those conservative scholars who insist on Mosaic authorship of the Torah, scholars agree that the Exodus account is a composite literary construct, composed and edited from smaller units transmitted over centuries to achieve theological and historical coherence. Recent research has identified more and more of the Exodus material as coming from the Israelite monarchy and the Exile, times long after the 2nd millennium epoch in which the narrative is set, and the original base of the story becomes corrspondingly more and more difficult to identify. While the overall intent of the narrative is historical, it is not history in the modern sense, but as a theology set against a historical background, illustrating how the God of Israel acted to save and strengthen his chosen people, the Children of Israel, and that it is therefore inappropriate to approach miraculous events such as the burning bush and the plagues of Egypt as if they were modern history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

mazaje: Recently, the archeologists Israel Finkelstein (Tel Aviv University) and Neil Asher Silberman (director of historical interpretation, Ename Center for Public Archeology and Heritage Presentation, Belgium) summarized the archeological findings and latest corrections regarding the historical origins of the Jewish nation. In their words, "The process that we describe here is, in fact, the opposite of what we have in the Bible: the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause. And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan - they emerged from within it. There was no mass exodus from Egypt. There was no violent conquest of Canaan".

Finkelstein and Silberman point out that there is still no evidence for the existence of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lot, Moses, and Joshua. There is no evidence that Jewish people existed as an identified people that were enslaved in Egypt. There is no evidence that over 600,000 men (plus women and children - the number could have been over a million) had an exodus from Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years. According to the Bible, 38 of these 40 years were actually spent encamped at Kadesh-barnea. This area has been turned upside down for decades, looking for even a tiny piece of pottery from this supposed time. It is not likely that this many people would have lived here this long and not left archeological evidence.

The archeological evidence contradicts the Biblical theme of Joshua taking control of the Israelites from Moses and conquering Canaan. For example, the Egyptians had a strong presence in Canaan at this time, yet the Biblical accounts make no mention of this. The Biblical themes of the origins of Israel are myths. Like the gospel accounts of the New Testament, they were fabricated in later times and inserted into earlier times as a tool of religious and political propagandists,

http://www.concentric.net/~Worgar/exodus.htm

Science is "pick and choose" what tosses your salad  It effectively, allows you, like religion , decide your own truth as you ignore what you wish and accept what you don't want.

Very recently, I was opportune to be watching tv when National Geographic aired a program titled "The ten plagues of the Bible - the first curses". Effectively, Science has "discovered" that these ten plagues really did happen in the exact order they appear in the Bible.

However, there is another explanation given to it - The "bloodying" of the Nile was due to Climatic change (probably due to global warming from all the horses of egpyt farting non-stop  ) which caused unusual growth of a particular algae which supposedly turns water to as blood. This "bloodying" forced the frogs in the water to come out (the second plague). Their subsequent death in unfamiliar conditions led to the invasion of flies and insects since the frogs (their natural predators) had ALL died. This brought about the next plague etc etc etc (you get the point).

I also have links I'm searching for that proved the Red Sea was crossed by the Israelites and that the same sea bogged down and destroyed Pharaoh's Army. So basically science itself throws out Mazaje's argument above that these events were not historical even if science tries to downplay the issue by providing "natural" reasons for what can suddenly no longer be denied.

But the point is missed - how did Moses know about them all in advance? How come he raised his hands at the very instant they started, as it were, announcing them. How are scientists explaining the plague that befell Egypt's firstborn? From the program:

QUOTE
The cause of the final plague, the death of the first borns of Egypt, has been suggested as being caused by a fungus that may have poisoned the grain supplies, of which male first born would have had first pickings and so been first to fall victim.
UNQUOTE

"Rubbish". So the first born had access before their fathers and mothers, ehn? And everyone else supposedly waited for them to eat and digest the food (to know if it would kill them?) because they were firstborn, before the others ate, ehn?

The skies changing color is also explained away as the effect of a Volcano far away at the same time - What matters is how did Moses know?

Science shifts and turns and whist having produced a lot of innovations and usefulness to us, has its limits.

Watch the program yourself at http://www.mytvblog.org/?p=7971

http://rapidshare.com/files/374011374/National.Geographic.The.Ten.Plagues.of.the.Bible.The.First.Curses.part1.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/374009617/National.Geographic.The.Ten.Plagues.of.the.Bible.The.First.Curses.part2.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/374028195/National.Geographic.The.Ten.Plagues.of.the.Bible.The.First.Curses.part3.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/374017337/National.Geographic.The.Ten.Plagues.of.the.Bible.The.First.Curses.part4.rar.html

How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
—  Donald Menzuel quoting Sherlock Holmes (1953)

The ten plagues were truth. I am trying to find the "Science" link that proves that the Red Sea was crossed! This would inform that mazaje's scholars and the archeologists Israel Finkelstein (Tel Aviv University) and Neil Asher Silberman (director of historical interpretation, Ename Center for Public Archeology and Heritage Presentation, Belgium); were speaking out of turn based on a bias that has nothing to do with truth. Hold on a while

I start to wonder if the malady that hit NL over the past few hasn't entered this thread. It was so,  .so. , so mature before (which is why we unearthed it) and suddenly now, we have the regular NL spat come to roost.

@DeepSight:

If you read Pastor_AIO's last post, you'll find your charts are inapplicable with his line of reasoning, seeing as "IT IS DEFINITE" ALL men felt a void, found a primarily uniform understanding and interpreted such; every man in his own way, to form the various religions (maybe thats why Christianity's individual approach bent has created millions of religions in christianity alone). If that is not similar, I know not what you'd expect aside we all face east or all call on Jesus. I PUT IT TO YOU then that religions are staggeringly similar in as much as at the core of each, the same theme revolves. These are FACTS and I would rather you not innudate your wife Mad_Max with peripheral details which are naught but fantasy. [size=5pt]All this turenchi and conviction of right - how does deepsight keep up with himself?[/size]

Its been nice watching the romance between you and Mad_Max develop but its gone far enough. Pastor's post has detailed truth. Could we please return to the NL of "old"?

Lol at the "love-birds". You'll fit very well together, I suspect! "Deeply-Mad"   or "Maximum-Sight"  

Aside the personage of Jesus, there are two differences between Christianity and ALL other religions that you both seem to have missed -

[1] Jesus promised nothing physical as gain for Christians. Not health or wealth or position or strength. Not here and not in heaven. Just love (not the type you're both trying to cultivate sha)
[2] Christianity is the only belief system which requires its adherents to study it and criticise it.

BTW, DeepSight, you must permanently have stomach upsets seeing as Christianity is here to stay and is thrust into your face daily if not elsewhere, at least on NL. Pele, dear  

@Tudor:

You go join me and Ilo-baba?

EDIT:

@DeepSight:

Chei! see as you yap me over ordinary name-calling? I get who I take am resemble O. He called many "hypocrites"

^^ I know and was just joking. One thing I like about Islam as opposed to Christianity is that they all stand together when it comes to their prophet. Good and commendable even if we believe its unfounded. Most will choose Muhammed and Islam over personal gain whist we prefer cold hard cash to God, Jesus or His Kingdom.

Actually, reading the Bible and Koran, I can understand why  . We are promised a life of persecution and holiness (chei, with all these amazing things called women that we are assailed with on the streets daily) and then in heaven, we are told it is dancing and praising God and no male or female so no "--X". Damn! They on the other hand, can do four (at home) here, countless as concubines and on the other side, another 72 "renewables" are waiting  Triple damn! ! ! 

But its all folly cos the whole point is the NOW. What are your motives? Whether it is either our holiness destination or their "chei" destination, what men forget is that God looks on the inside and sees what we are after and will judge motives, not the mechanical actions that follows such.

As much as I would like Nopugeater (for his loyalty), the tendency to go on and on and on and on and on ( ) gets to me. His belief that insulting Jesus means 2 kobo to me is even funnier - is my name Jesus? 

Meanwhile, where are you and will you be joining my meet with Ilosiwaju? 

Before my own analysis of the parable, I'd like to say something - You contradict yourself DeepSight, when you say the parable is so obviously true and is Jesus. If it is as you state, you've accepted the status of Jesus in that parable. But I digress!

True, the Householder is the Almighty. He planted "a" Vineyard (earth) and left it in the care of, as it were, tenant farmers. We start to disagree here - God is a Spirit and though He has given us physical resources which we harness to our desires, His Own desire is for what is useful to Him; Spiritual harvests (righteousness, love, joy, peace). While you state there are physical harvests then, I see no use to the Almighty, of physical stuff (I hope you are not a prosperity pastor).

The tenant farmers or husbandmen are, in the Christian context, the leaders of the people, not the totality of the people (remember the servants of the householder are a subset of people). They weed, care for and handle the vineyard. But this again is simplistic - True leadership comes from rulership; guidance or better yet, a guiding spirit or design. The guiding spirit then, for our purpose was that which opposed the desire(s) of the original owner or householder and replaced them with his own. This spirit is what we call Satan or "the opposer". Satan's desire was and remains to frustrate the efforts of the owner and own the harvest.

The people (laity) are the crop(s). Tended as desired, the messengers should have found the crops ready, welcoming, ready to accept "further instructions" (take that as pruning etc) from the Householder who sent them. However, the husbandmen (under guidance from Evil) had turned cashcrops into weeds and furthermore did not have the faintest desire to change. They it was who took the servants and killed them. In one word, I would state the fruit required by the Householder was "righteousness". We all know what was brought forth.

By the time the Son came, it had become a dire situation. He also was slain. And for you, all the deductions to be made from the parable end here. But let us go forward -

"The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes"

AND

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder"

Do you think, DeepSight, that these words were added to remove white space?

Jesus knew the plan of "Evil" was to kill Him. Then what? Evil had WON? No because you cannot win the Almighty. Something else was ahead. But explaining in detail to the people would have alerted (I believe) their guiding spirit to the fact that something "marvellous" was planned and would still happen and infact was "dependent" on that very killing taking place. For US today (using benefit of hindsight), Jesus added those words that we might know He was aware of what would happen, not only concerning His death, but also the "marvellous" following it. Rejecting the Stone then, would be "killing Him" and yet that same stone (dead in their estimation) would again become the chief stone (planned all along). How? We know the History!

I think where the problem comes from is taking the issue in isolation. But the Bible is a synchronized issue with any serious "sincere" study having to take from all of it rather than just one isolated collection of verses. Isaiah 53: 7 & 8 show this same parable summarized. Verse 10 then explains the understanding behind it. That entire chapter in effect handles the issue of "murder" rather than "sacrifice". If you would like more scriptural references, let me know but please take a look at Is 53: 1 - end.

I already feel I may have taken up too much space addressing something a 4 month convert would understand in 2 sentences and don't want to waste more time/space.

DONKEY (don't make me spell out your name) :

we're waiting for your side of the story  looks around afraid balaams donkey is galloping hard towards me to kick me for comparing it to "_ _ _ _ _ Bleep"

Meanwhile 2 Peter 2:15 & 16 show God at work whist the ramblings we see here show the fruits of dead trees. Whist God uses the simple and the little, our people expect Angels to show up. As I once said on this forum, God knows the public relations departments of these people would turn Angelic appearances into a fiasco so He uses the simple to confound them and show them light.

Much like Peter, Stephen showing light to the Pharisees

^^^ Interesting.

Never saw it in that light yet so apt