₦airaland Forum

^^
Has it become so bad for you that you have now taken Nopugeater as a mentor and are imitating his english? Has your life come to so miserable a point that first you copy us (prop etc), then you copy Viaro (tithephobia etc) and now are copying senile story-tellers?  You really are pathetic, you know. What was everyone around you looking at whist you degenerated to this level? Or did you fall and hit your head against the ground whist a baby?

And when will this your skulking around like a vulture or rabid dog following me around NL end, ehn? You remind me more and more of tales of retarded children of a angeldust addict. Imcomplete function yet given no care. Go take a bath - even online, you stink.

boy ko, schoolmaster ni!

Joagbaje:
nuclearboy,
I would like to be clear on your stand.What are you really passing accross
Is it that there should be no headship
Is it that there should be no leadership in the body
is it that there should be no administrative structure
I dont want to misunderstand you so please be clear on what you are projecting so I can respond appropriately.

You already wrote someplace that old time religion is not good enough for you so I don't know why you ask me. In saying old time religion is not good enough, what Peter, Stephen, Paul, James the babyteeth and the other Apostles of Christ believed and did is not good enough for you. And you did call 1 Cor 11: 1 -3 "crap" so whats the point?

Anyway -

There is a HEADSHIP and the Bible is clear on that - ONE HIGH PRIEST. It further reiterates this when it says CHRIST iS THE HEAD. Any other head(s) are therefore FAKE!

There is a leadership - PLEASE, SIR, STARTING FROM THE DAY AT PENTECOST, show me one Pastor heading a flock in the Bible. Leadership in the Bible is by example that makes you get chosen as an elder. Read that as PLURAL as we do not have one elder controlling the church anywhere in the Bible unlike today when "pastor MOG" is almighty.

"administrative structures" belong in government and business. The church is the body of Christ. Jesus is its Head i.e. brain. Are you telling us here that it is your tummy that administers the church's structure? So thank you but NO, in the Biblical context, there is no administration except that of Jesus Himself

Let me speed this all up. The Bible does NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE PASTOR over a flock. Whenever a "church" was planted, the "apostle" who planted it left it to "elders" and there was no central administration i.e. no branches and no remittances to the head-quarters. Thus leadership was found through the simple process of people knowing themselves and thus putting the most respected elders as leaders. Read "Elders" as PLURAL (chosen through natural selection of maturity).
There was no administrative structure as is found today - no Pastor(s), assistant pastors, personal assistants, no ushers and definitely no bodyguards. There were no budgets! Responsible people collected and shared money DONATED FOR THE POOR, not for the ministry pastor as you do today.

And one last thing Joagbaje, the Gospel spread so much that YOU HEARD IT, even though Churches didn't collect money for themselves but for the poor. Churches gave not collected. The poor received, not paid tithe! And they found love they had found nowhere else amongst these "elder" run fellowships/churches.

This thread gets more interesting and seemingly more personal to more individuals.

@anietieh:

Sure you're not a Christian? No insults meant but you seem to have studied quite a lot for one who is not Christian. Very nice stuff that you put up there by the way and I'll be coming back regularly to read whatever you put up later.

God's Blessings

^^

The Pharisees called Jesus "a devil". Jesus called them Hypocrites and sons of their father "THE DEVIL".
The pharisees wanted the praise of men. Jesus wanted the Glory of God
The pharisees were the religious establishment and controlled the mob. Jesus had just His few "TRUE"
The pharisees were wealthy, big men who knew Pilate and could demand His death. Jesus and disciples had no "clout" except with Heaven
The pharisees were called MOGs and wore suits (robes). Jesus and company were poor, reviled and had no human position
The Pharisees used big Words (logos, Greek, Aramaic, revelation knowledge and insisted on different LEVELS with them of course, at the top). Jesus said No, you are all equal and lived/spoke simply. He wasn't even recognised amongst His disciples!
The Pharisees quoted from Moses law and used it randomly to confuse. Jesus explained all (to His own) simply and without embellishment or clapping

What else is there to say? Stand against the establishment/hypocrisy OR stand against Christ ---> Its your choice. As one of the biggest liars in History said "The bigger the lie, the more the people will believe it" - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf. Standing against God's Word is quite a big lie!

Very nice. Very Very nice. I only wish you would speak more on the Gospel that makes riches, dominion and well being a "must" in Christianity and demands God provide such.

Again, very very nice.

@Ogajim:

Image123 is likely too young to have watched "tales by moonlight" where Mr Tortoise said "Not until I've been disgraced" would he return home.

Openly I say here that e36991's idea about tithing is the same as Viaro's - "mostly thieves smiling off to the bank after ripping off gullible people" but exactly like Viaro, myself, Ogajim etc, he rightly believes giving is the watchword for Christians and that giving was made mandatory in the OT as a pointer to the NT freedom just as commandments were mandatory then but "over-graced" now i.e. no condemnation YET NO license to sin!

Mr Tortoise, time for you to return home! What beats me is how you people can convinvce yourself that humans like you are superior to the Bible. Then you come back and say "No, we just esteem them". Liars - if their lives resembled that of the Apostles, who would dare speak against them. If their fruits resemble the bereans, we'd know the stock they came from. But their fruit is hypocritical, self serving, greedy and have itchy ears. What does that tell you about them?

Anyways, no man here is quarelling with you! That is the truth. All we say is stop putting man over the Bible and over God! They are only men and if you remove the money they've put together, you would have zero respect for them and call them just another pastor.Which tells you something - its all about the money!

^^^ Have you started drinking or is it smoking weed that is your thing? What does the above mean?

I pray and fellowship with a few friends unofficially - no leader! Anyone can bring up an issue and it is discussed maturely. When one speaks, all else are quiet and introspective.

You lie when you turn the manner in which Jesus related WITH (not to them as you do) His disciples. If not, then explain why they didn't know Him different and needed Judas to show them. Because people were used to the (your) Pharisee style, they went to Phillip and he with Andrew told Jesus. Do you notice the last person who "told" Jesus was the first one who learnt people wanted to see Christ? I think GOd deliberately made sure Phillip's name came last because He knew people like you would want to turn it into -

[1] Denrele wants to see Pastor Chris so He tells Femi
[2] Femi then tells the "secretary"
[3] Secretary then tells the PRO
[4] PRO tells PA
[5] PA arranges the meeting after checking his tithe card and records to show he's a good worshipper follower of the MOG.

So God MADE IT CLEAR the chap(s) told Phillip because they didn't know Jesus and Phillip (with Andrew) introduced them to Jesus. No shakara or bigmanism.

You say I am "misusing" scriptures. Okay, explain what Jesus meant in Matt 23 when, after He insulted the pharisees who like titles and want to be called CLOSER TO GOD (MOGs) AND SO SIT IN MOSES SEAT, told HIS OWN to avoid all such. You forget there was a background, abi you think you're talking down at one of your people who don't read the Bible? Start with Matthew 23, verse 1 and explain to verse 12! I am waiting.

Spiritual insight? For someone who is desperately searching for earthly rewards, you have a nerve talking "spiritise"

alfa-elede:

The spirit of violence (the bond-woman) is your guiding spirit so I know you will not quit

I would be much obliged to create a yahoo messenger ID just so we can chat and lets see who will tire and run away. NL will ban me if I spend 2 "serious" paragraphs on you. Here's the score-

In the red corner, we have a pig, who smells like a dead dog and fantasizes about sleeping with small girls. He (you) has the story of the Lord who died and arose (and whom your koran says will be King) against me. This same Jesus; your own koran says "His followers will be greater than those who do not follow Him)" and that "He has no earthly father". You also have a very poor education (arabic school under the whip and sticks of an illiterate alfa like yourself as your master) and this horrid english. Those are the things you have in your arsenal to argue/fight against me.

In the blue corner, there's gentle me  ! Mohammed is on my side against you -  that Fact alone settles ALL in MY favor.  Don't let us quantify him here. Read your hadiths and history.

What you don't get is this - I am NOT expected to defend God. He is able to do so Himself. So you can call Jesus and the Holy Spirit  anything you like. It is no skin off my black bottom. You on the other hand must defend the stone you worship since it is fake, dead and cannot defend itself. So it will be painful to you as the song I once sang - "oro na dun, o fe ke" WILL BECOME "oro na dun, o tin'ke". You will foam at the mouth and soil your beard and shirt. Sadly, you may end up taking it out on your own 11 year old wife or binding a bomb to yourself as is natural to those who have nothing good to look forward to and so delde themselves with thoughts of 72 virgins and a river of ogogoro.

Virgin ko, electrical socket ni! 

Woman? Thats Wow

If you like that writeup, please as I said earlier, search out TV01 and go through his posts.

^^^ Whats wrong?

You people always set traps for yourself then get angry when they are sprung on you.

cicero:
The bolded is another explosive topic that I wont want to get into now.
But I must mention that I follow men of God, I do not worship them, but I esteem them very highly 1 Th. 5:13
And I am wiser than you think you know, because I realize they are human beings and can make mistakes, so I overlook their mistakes, and follow the virtues God has deposited in them.
If tomorrow my own anointing outshines them, I'll still honor and love them with all my heart.

I'm glad you like Daddy G.O., I LOVE HIM. Did you know he is one of the spiritual Fathers of Bishop Oyedepo? Thought I should let you know.

Lastly I don't know what the 'devourer' thing refers to, but I am addicted to tithing. Thought I should mention that too.
God bless

And who said they are not human? Is it me that refuses to follow follow or you who say it and then follow follow?

The trap I mentioned! - do you know Lawrence Anini had a father too? Was the father also engaged in the same "work"? So when next you think you're being brilliant, consider there are levelers. remember it is not compulsory the son follows his father's steps. In effect, I am not saying Oyedepo is a thief but that your argument holds "ZERO" water!

If you like, give 100% and call it tithe. I have never argued against giving, only the teaching that a specific % MUST go to the local church

@Yorubah:

YOURSELF are a real man of God IF you believe Christ died for you. Now to "LIVE IT", [1] pick your Bible and study [2] Pray pray then pray again

THEN you will show it. Your conscience will be regenerated, truth, peace, calm and the other attributes of the Holy Spirit will start to manifest in your life and it will become stronger, better etc as you mature in [1] study [2] prayer [3] living the life. Look at it like this - the closer you are to someone, the better you know them. GET CLOSE TO GOD.

@ Ogoamaka:

OF course Joagbaje cannot tell you who a true man of God is - it will have to contradict what we say and that will be an open admission against the Bible so he comes up with this asinine rubbish that makes no sense

Another member of this Forum who goes by the name TV01 wrote a writeup earlier that throws more light on the activities of what "they" do as opposed to "what" it should be like. Joagbaje wants you to follow MEN that he himself is affiiated to who will then intepret God to you. I want you to follow GOD Himself; nothing in it for me. Which side is Jesus Himself on? Read His Words yourself - MATTHEW 23: 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

So let us ask - who is wishing that men be called Rabbi here? Is he supporting Christ? Who wishes to be a "master"? Who are they that want to be called "daddy", "mama" even by followers that atimes are older? Why should they be followed when you consider the Words of Jesus above? Are we not ALL equal brethren according to Jesus? Do they know better? What is in it for me? What is in it for THEM? is this not a fight about the money and power they get over the souls of men? What have I asked you to bring? Why can't they push you to study and develop DIRECTLY under the Holy Spirit?

Please go through this and see truth. A CHRISTIAN wrote this -

[b]Believers & Priesthood

In the Body of Christ, there are no class or hierarchical divisions. The only real distinction is maturity in your walk and time spent in His presence (Acts 4:13). There is no mandate or requirement to have some believers differentiated (i.e. elevated) by ordination or theological/seminary training (John 7:15).

The Bible clearly attests to the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:9, Revelations 1:6). More mature believers if they fulfill the criteria may serve as elders (this role is the same as pastor/shepherd/bishop, the different renderings merely describe various facets of the same role). Likewise, others may serve as deacons. The personal qualities for both are clearly spelt out in the pastoral epistles (Timothy & Titus). These are the only roles required in NT Christianity.

Furthermore, the ethos is one of servant-leadership;
Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave-- 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Hierarchies, reporting lines and corporate structures are simply not necessary in the Body of Christ (authority stems primarily from the family and not the Church. 1 Corinthians 11:1-3).

1 Peter 5:1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;

Christian leadership is a sacrificial service aimed at providing an example to the less mature and guidance, counsel and direction for the whole flock of God. The aim of our collective fellowship, the various gifts and all the offices, so beautifully enunciated in Ephesians chapter 4, is to bring all believers to maturity in Christ.

And just as the interaction between the Head and members of this family is relational, likewise, fellowship between the individual members of the body of Christ is clearly meant to be relationship based and not functionally ordered. It’s corporeal and not corporate, a body not an institution. It is edification by knitting together through love. God’s a Father not a Chairman/CEO.

As long as a hierarchical (religious) divide exists between clergy and laity, this will never be the case. Ironically, it takes both sides to both justify and perpetuate. To do this they have to foster spiritual dependence by the laity (so called) on the clergy (so called). For this unscriptural state of affairs to continue, certain truths have to be suppressed or misapplied. The situation is further compounded by the cult of personality, which grows up around certain religious figures. Please, don’t let the fallen nature (and it’s lust for Power, Profit, Position & Prestige) along with your affection for human culture and love of religious tradition to rob you of intimacy with God.

The new covenant appoints a new royal priesthood comprising of ALL BELIEVERS (1 Peter 2:5, 9, Revelations 1:6), and ONE new High priest, sworn by an oath according to the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 6:20, 7:26, 8:1, 9:11). Hallelujah! Praises to God most high. It’s that simple.

God bless
TV

note: the mandate assumed by so called pastors in most churches today is a self-arrogated one and nowhere found in scripture. Eldership in a church setting is always by a plurality of qualified male elders (all things being equal). Nowhere in the biblical narrative is there leave or 1 single example of a single person "pastoring" a church. I acknowlege the right of all to make "OTHERS" kings over themselves if they so wish.[/b]

eyzhvntsn:
@nuclearboy

I am new to NL but I find your posts quite interesting as I also mentioned in the 'who is a true man of God' thread.

Bro, your ID is quite a mouthful but its obvious you come from good Christian stock. Thanks for your kind words bt if you look around, you will find many more mature than I - watch out for Aletheia, Enigma, TV01, Inesqor and "Lord" Viaro. I call him that to rile him. BTW, the list is by no means exhaustive but you will find a lot of light with them.

eyzhvntsn:
My contribution to this thread would be:

Category 1 - these have been reconciled unto God according to 2 Cor 5:19 but seeing as they are non-believers or non-professing, they cannot be partakers of that which by the sacrifice of the cross Jesus purchased except like you pointed out, they be brought in. However the grace of God has been extended to them. Titus 2:11; For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

You are right - Grace has been extended to them and the only reason I classified them thus was in consideration of the "dogs can eat crumbs" woman who though outside like these, also had Grace extended to her.

eyzhvntsn:
Category 2 - Very minimal in today's christianity.

Matt 7: 14b - and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it

Matt 7: 8 - For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
There is a life that has been provided in Christ, however except you seek, you cannot find and the path to seeking is not a very popular one. However for those who do seek, they then become partakers of the divine nature, enjoy a loving relationship with Christ and bear fruit which remain. And yes, they are an opposition to religion (the establishment).

Very Sad. Even "sadder" is that God has told us such would be few

eyzhvntsn:
Category 3 - Plenty, boku, overflowing in the church today. What can I say except 2 Tim 4: 3-4 (right before our eyes)

itchy indeed. What bothers me is they never get the promised yet insist on staying. I thought most knew its folly to keep doing the same and expect a different result.

eyzhvntsn:
Category 4 - With these, Christ was ALWAYS harsh and used words like HYPOCRITES, WHITE WASHED SEPULCHERS etc. I only wish there were more that would emulate Christ in this area. This category of people vex me so much, don't even want to get started on this.

Brother, people like Joagbaje above will loosen your tongue eventually if you stick around NL enough. I have read some things here that made me want to stick a finger down my throat and throw up in protest

eyzhvntsn:
True believers (within the establishment) do still exist and for me, I can only identify such by:

1. What they profess as the 'gospel' for there is only one gospel, that is the gospel of Christ unto salvation (liberty that Christ brings) to EVERYONE that believes. [i have found that it does not matter how knowledgeable a person is in the word or how many so-called testimonies the have, ONLY the word of God preached from a heart motivated by the love of God has any impact (on me anyway)]. If it ain't liberating you, it ain't the truth cos only the truth makes free.

2. The fruit that their lives/ministries produce. Sometimes you don't need to get close to some MOG's to know what their character is like, just look at their followers, if Christ had not been replicated in the disciples, they would not have been called christians at antioch.

The few whose ministries (church leaders, not individuals) achieve such are a joy to see.

God bless Friend. Again, welcome to NL

^^ Even YOU, Joagbaje should not be daft enough to try to use that trick here.

Your definition is of ONLY "true believers" and not of the mob that you and your burnt-haired swivel-hipped friend cultivate so carefully for their money. And so deliberately, you bring scripture and misapply in attempt to change the meaning of all? .

Is it not "true believers" that are in Christ? Are the "mob" in Christ? Are the Pharisees in Christ? Is the "world" in Christ?

You stopped suprising me when I read you saying Adam was bisexual and all God did in Genesis 2 was to separate His alter-ego, "Eve" from him. You are the perfect example of those Christ used Harsh words for - hypocrite, thief, given to ungodliness and revelling in it for self gain.

@Pig:

True, Jesus was mugged, beat up and killed. But He lives and no-one says bad about His life and times. Pick a mirror and CRY

They won't show up here.

1st - Scripture supports you
2nd - Good sense supports you

BUT we need to remember some have made a career of this and needs must be catered for. Where the problem comes is "I have a dream, start a church and thus I OWN the dam.ned place so can do anything I like". Thats why everyone wants a jet to take the Gospel back to where it came from instead of going into the villages or (don't even mention it) Niger Republic or ordinary Katsina here.

Apparently God is not interested in rough hausas and fulanis: too rough, those guys. Only those with Dollars in Lagos and the US are heaven's candidates

And one senile dude will now come and type a master's theses of words which even he does not understand in an attempt to confuse the issue

Omugo:

Do what you want in your religion but don't come to us with lies and expect us to buy lies as gospel truth. Babies, for God's sake? No wonder even your allah has promised you fire as your reward. Fire so much so that angels won't recognise you except by the "koko" on your head. Perverted central-park zoo resident defending rubbish.
"

@Tudor:

I meant ALL of them (word, style,thought-design approach) are exactly OPPOSITE you and so much so that its reeks of you.

Joagbaje has settled the matter here - https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-468635.0.html#msg6287259. Now we know they train people for duties involving falling down etc.

Case closed.

Joagbaje:
camera men ,Ushers etc ,Hardly fall, because of their responsibilities, Its part of their sacrifice and training. It takes a man willingness to recieve. But these people are trained in such a way that as helpers in ministry ,they recieve such blessing some other way. Ushers and protocols dont close eyes in service, to pray or dance and jump arround. Though , there are exceptional occasions when such manifestation occur to them or even the pastor deliberately minister to them . I have seen pastor Chris blow on ushers , protocols , Chior etc even instrumentalist . So dont criticise what you dont understand.

Joagbaje:

HABA! You "TRAIN" some NOT to fall under God's Anointing Some receive training on getting "alternative" blessings

Atimes you amaze me with the way you tie yourself up. And then you resent others for showing you up when it was you that did yourself in. If you train some NOT to fall, then is Sirjohn (I hope that was the name) not right with his "truth about CE healing school"? Haven't you just proved SirJohn right ALL BY YOURSELF? Training and planning. Film director style!

Can you imagine the Apostle Peter saying some people were trained NOT to receive the Holy Spirit at Pentecost

Can you imagine Paul saying some received their "gifts of the Spirit" in another way (maybe Shekels or US Dollars)

Chei, the Chris Embassy is truly Chris Embassy.

Aletheia:

You're passing too much information at ONE time. Poor guy has probably not seen/read that much scripture this entire year. you just might be guilty of sensory overload.

@Pig-that-eats-pigs:

oro na dun, o fe ke! You just totally lost control and have shown your intellect is directly proportional to that of a piece of charcoal. As it dies in the fire over time, so does your own wilt like a dying flower. fuuny enough, both the Charcoal's IQ and yours started where? Pele, I hope you're not allowing the rancid saliva that drips non-stop fall on your keyboard.

Old man that believes once a 5 year old sees her period, a randy dirty smelly old man can sleep with her and that even before then, could "thigh" her to his satisfaction because it was tradition. Depraved, sensualistic clean-shaved perverted baboon (maybe thats why they think you're human). And of course you think everyone's life is based on sleeping with as many women as the last census counted abi? Why doesn't that suprise me? - Oh yes, I forgot - you have a mentor who did the same.

And you keep saying you live in Manhattan, NY. Are you sure you're not one of the tenants in the monkey cages at "Central Park" in which case I might have seen you sometime in the past.

Anyway, you've finally confessed that you know the truth above and also condemned the man. You just used "sense-sense" to confess and I don't want a fatwa on your empty head so no wahala again. I have no further use for you - you're boring

@Tudor:

Its all just SO exactly OPPOSITE you. The words, thoughts, style - that IT REEKS of TUDOR! Jon-Bee would have been "it" but since its you, why stop with one extra ID. I'm watching for the 3rd!

@e36991:

Check your mail. But remember, "Strawberries are my favorite fruit"

@e36991:

Will write presently. Forgive the delay - had guests so wasn't by my laptop

@Image123

You're asking me for the 2nd time if God hates an "uncheerful" giver. Let me answer this time -

God loves a cheerful giver is what the Bible says and His Children will delight in ensuring givers are happy and aware what they are giving to/for.

But there's another "father" who does not care whether you're cheerful or not. His children (like him) will twist, misquote, misinterpret, lie and cajole people in "giving" whether cheerful or not. For them, its just bring the moolah. Their father's name is "_ _ _ _ _". Fill in the blanks, Image123. At least, you know your father's name.

@Image:

e36991 has opened your vocabulary abi and you too are now writing - "don't throw the baby out with the bath water"? At least NL is helping your grammar even if you're closed to the truth.

@cicero:

The person you name yourself after was considered very wise. One sign of wisdom is to listen/read more than you talk/write. Sadly, you fail in that. I do not believe pastors should be beggarly. But I know they are not "gods" and I know the primary task of the Gospel is outlined in Mark 16. Where pastoral gifts, tithes, first fruit, prophets offering, etc are in that, I would like to be shown. BTW, you asked I read Mark 10: 30 & 31. Did YOU YOURSELF read verse 29? Before you can get the blessings, you have something to do too - leave all these things you wish to claim as rewards, NOT fight for them like your mentors do.

Finally, I like Pastor Adeboye very much. Very very very much and I dare anyone to show me one place where I criticised him directly. That said, if he does the wrong thing, I will say so! He is NOT my Lord. You of course, have the right to keep worshipping men but quick question - what if you find tomorrow that they misbehave? Ever heard of Jimmy Swarggart? or Robert Liardon? Or what if your own anointing outshines them in the next 12 months - will you start worshipping yourself or insist that you cannot be wrong? Think of all that. At least you're not "image123" who's capability to think has been taken up by fear of the OT devourer.

Brilliant observation - Also, the "protocol" guys who follow the pastor through the crowds moving people aside and keeping them from soiling the "anointed" hands, also do not fall. And of course, those who collect the offerings must not even stumble or cough, talkless of fall!

@Ogoamaka:

When the debate was on about Chris Oyakilome being a FreeMason, I spoke up and said I don't "think" he is a cultist. When Oyedepo said "love makes you RICH and PROSPEROUS", I said IF THAT MEANS "love" will give you 3 jeeps and 2 mansions, its a lie BUT IF he meant rich and prosperous means you have contentment, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, THEN HE is right.

The Gospel of Money is not Biblical. Any human being who says Christianity is about money, winning, controlling the world and being the "top people" of earth, IS A THIEF. No matter who he is! Why? Because the Apostles Peter, Stephen, Paul, James etc walked with Jesus and wrote what we are following - they wrote that the Christian life would be one of persecution but that we have a reward - IN HEAVEN and inside ourselves (love, peace, calm, contentment). How any man can change that to become a story of money is sad! Does he know more than Peter or Paul? Where is he getting his information from? Is it not what Paul and the Apostles wrote?

These people (MOGs) have taught many good things but mind you - the good does not cancel the evil. What the Bible says is "dead flies spoil the perfumers ointment; so also does a little folly spoil much wisdom". Add a little poison to a cup of water. Will you drink it because the water was clean? 

But I do not throw out the baby with the bath water. It is the specific things they say and I hear that is wrong BIBLICALLY that I argue against and not that they are not christians. So if you say they are right, then  it is the Bible that is wrong!

A Christian is a believer, who follows the commandment of Love of God AND Man. You cannot say you love men and cheat them or lie to them or fool them or control them to your own advantage. You cannot say you love God and twist His Word to your own advantage. Jesus, Peter, Paul, were examples of the above. Imagine the power Peter had over men when he raised the cripple? Do you see him asking for tithe? Imagine what Paul could ask of those who witnessed when a deadly snake bit him and nothing happened to him? Does the Bible not have him saying he wants no man's money but prefers to pay his own way himself? These were Christians - they believed God's reward is in the next world. But today, its bring money money money!

Finally, I do not say Christians should be poor or that pastors be beggarly - I work hard and God has given me success. Many Christians are multi-millionaires from hard work. Many pastors get fantastic gifts (cars, checks, etc) and that is good. But many are also poor - why can't we help these as God planned tithes for rather than making church to be only about money money money with that not going to the needy but to pastors.

I hope you get MY OWN point now. That is how I define "Christian".