₦airaland Forum

Jesus started with God’s design that what God has joined together, let not man separate. In Matthew, he lists sexual immorality as a reason for divorce (19:9 ). Deuteronomy 24:1-4 deals with divorce but doesn't actually command it. Saying divorce happened without God’s approval stretches things too far, considering Moses spoke under God’s authority (Deut. 1:3). The better approach is that Moses allowed and regulated divorce while Jesus explained that this allowance came from hardened hearts, not God’s original plan (Matt. 19:8 ). The abomination in Deuteronomy 24:4 refers to taking back a former wife after she had remarried. It wasn't about divorce itself. Scripture also talks about separation (1 Cor. 7:10-11), and many read Paul’s statement about being not bound (7:15) as applying to abandoning the duties of a marriage covenant.

TenQ:
Let it be on record that you are avoiding answering my questions almost all the time.

You definitely deliberately refuse to get my points
I SAID:
1. Divorce is NOT the sin
2. Remarrying after divorce may be the sin of Adultery
3. If a divorced person doesn't remarry, he commits no sin
4. Christians have at least THREE ways in which individually they define how to interpret divorce in general for whatever the reason.
Such a Christian is responsible for his actions before God. So, it you see a Christian remarry (for any reason), it is based on their convictions

If you dont understand this, it is a deliberate choice and there is NOTHING I can do about that.



There is ZERO passage that explicitly allows Remarriage. Either you stay celibate or return back to your spouse is explicitly stated.

It is not a question of Christians differing on how to harmonise them: it is a question of human differences.
And you talk like Muslims are united in their understanding of the Quran. Shia Believe in Muttah-Sunni says Mohammed abrogated it in the hadith. Some Muslims are Quran-only while others say the Sunnah of Mohammed is part of the believe. There are a thousand and one difference in school of consensus amongst the Muslims. Do Muslims hold a consensus on all aspects of doctrines in the Qur'an? [/b]YES or NO?



Did you hear me say that polygamy was a sin? It was permitted by Moses!


I do not think that polygamy in Islam is a sin or an Abomination. The SIN and ABOMINATION is clearly stated.
The SIN and ABOMINATION is Remarrying a divorced wife who had been sexually polluted by marrying another man.

This is exactly what Allah promotes as Halal.



Meaning that you didn't read my post on this. You said, such a woman could seek for dissolution of the marriage: and I agree with you.
[b]ONLY that
It is still a DIRTY and NAUSEATING option

I said

It is still a bad situation.
The impotent man saw this dutiful faithful wives unclothedness. The man touched her all over trying to get his third leg up. The man even tried to stuff it inside to no avail.
After repeated failure
This woman who had never unclothe herself to another man other than her husband goes to the Shari'a court to seek dissolution of the marriage.
After this is granted
Several Muslim men are waiting in line with their secret desire wanting a taste of her.

And you think this nonsensical oddity, ABOMINATION and SIN is from God!?





What brought the issue of wine?
You said:

I just showed you examples of conflicting statements from Allah in your Quran answering Did Allah sanction what departs form the beginning wrt Alcohol

I then said:
Apply your laws to yourself whether Allah sanction what he considered is from satan. Qur’an 16:67, Qur’an 2:219 and Qur’an 4:43 before Qur’an 5:90–91
Come back after justifying this!
It was the fact that Allah in the Qur'an makes statements like a seventh century Arabian man. So, I changed not the subject of conversation.


Back to your question: You said
[s]"Please cite the text permitting an innocent spouse to remarry while the former spouse lives, and reconcile it with your claim that their spiritual union remains unbroken."[/s]
There is ZERO bible text permitting REMARRIAGE in the New Testament.

Any remarriage is based on personal interpretation, convictions, maturity and walk with God by the individual concerned.



Now, Let me Represent my Questions that you had repeatedly avoided
SIX QUESTIONS. SIX DIRECT ANSWERS.
1. Did Jesus say that
Moses gave the law to the children of Israel because of their heard heartedness
OR
God gave the law to the children of Israel because of their heard heartedness

Which one is it?

2. Did Jesus lie about the fact that Moses gave the concession to the children of Israel or not?

3. Since you admit that Moses wasn't telling lies, ReMarrying once Divorced Wife is a SIN and an ABOMINATION before God irrespective of where you take it.

When and How did such SIN and ABOMINATION become Halal for Muslims?

4. Under what logic or reason did Mohammed downgrade the the standard of morality (where it is a SIN and ABOMINATION to remarry a divorced wife already defiled sexually by another husband) that it is WORSE than that of Moses?


5. It was your prophet who had less than THREE days Iddah period instead of the stipulated THREE months with Safiyya as stipulated by Allah in the Qur'an: I ask WHY?
Why did he violate the dictated rules of Allah according to Jibril?

6. From the perfect rule of Allah:
What is the punishment of the offending Rash and Impulsive Husband?

This is

You’re mixing up a change in religious law with actually going against God’s will. You ask how Muhammad pbuh could permit a woman to remarry her former husband when Deuteronomy 24:4 forbids her return after an intervening marriage. But first, establish that this Mosaic restriction was intended as a universal, eternal law binding every people.

Qur’an 2:230 imposes a serious condition after a third divorce: the woman must genuinely marry another man, consummate that marriage, and then have it end independently before she may remarry her first husband by mutual agreement. A sham marriage to circumvent the rule is condemned (Abu Dawud 2076). This restrains both spouses: the husband cannot treat a third divorce as casually reversible, and the wife cannot simply return without a genuine intervening marriage. Jesus himself acknowledged that Moses permitted divorce because of hard hearts (Matthew 19:8 ), showing that biblical law can distinguish a concession from the original ideal. A difference in legislation alone does not prove contradiction.

Regarding Safiyya, Bukhari 4211 says she became free of her menses before the marriage was consummated. That establishes the reported sequence, but it does not specify the complete duration or every legal detail of her waiting period. Muslim 1365e also mentions Anas’s understanding that she was being prepared and would observe her waiting period, but that does not establish the exact timeline of every event. So neither side should claim more than the reports actually say. If you allege a specific conversation about her menses, cite the exact narration and show how it supports your claim. Please answer the five questions and Safiyya’s challenge with evidence, not assumptions.

TenQ:
The rules of Jesus was several posts ago, the Options taken by Christians was the latest discussed.

Did Jesus say separating from a spouse is a SIN?
Did Jesus give any command for a separated person (for any reason) to remarry?

If the answer is NO, the you waste your time arguing over nothing.



What Jesus spoke about was a person divorcing AND marrying ANOTHER person

The two conditions must be met except you dont know the meaning of the conjunction "AND"



Except you are truly feighning to appear dumb, Moses gave the law and not God.

This had been why you couldn't answer the basic questions I asked you.

Did Jesus say that
1. Moses gave the law to the children of Israel because of their heard heartedness
OR
2. God gave the law to the children of Israel because of their heard heartedness

Which one is it?

Also
Since you admit that Moses wasn't telling lies, ReMarrying once Divorced Wife is a SIN and an ABOMINATION before God irrespective of where you take it.

When and How did such SIN and ABOMINATION become Halal for Muslims?


Then show me where Polygamy is a SIN in the bible and stop wasting my time!?

You said:
"Can a practice depart from the original ideal yet be permitted or regulated? If yes, why can that distinction apply to polygamy but not to Moses’ divorce concession?"

YES!
In the past, marriage of sisters and brother were permitted. Leviticus 18:6

Did Jesus lie about the fact that Moses gave the concession to the children of Israel or not?

If Jesus spoke the truth, then you have no argument.

The question is what is Allah really saying about WINE ( is it from Shaitan or it is Good

Quran 16:67 versus 5:90
16:67 acknowledges that people made intoxicants from grapes and dates; 5:90 forbids intoxicants altogether.
If 16:67 is taken as praising wine, it conflicts with 5:90.
Quran 2:219 versus 5:90
2:219 says intoxicants have “some benefit,” while 5:90 calls them defilement from Satan’s work and commands avoidance.
Quran 4:43 versus 5:90
4:43 prohibits prayer while drunk, which naturally implies that drinking at other times was not yet categorically banned. 5:90 then prohibits intoxicants generally.




It is not that Qur'an 2:230 is painful, it is actually stupid and thus cannot come from the True God. It reeks of the mentality of a 7th century Arabian man feigning knowledge.

The giver of the law should have realised that
1. The woman stands to lose by being PUNISHED with his arrangement even though it was the rashness of the husband that caused it.
2. The rash husband is not punished for being rash and impulsive

This is me as a limited human being who lacks perfect knowledge educating whoever created the law.
It is not a sensible judgment sir.

So, under what logic did Mohammed downgrade the the standard of morality that it is WORSE than that of Moses?.


The choice of Remarrying for any Christian is entirely his to make and with its consequence to take. A Christian is NOT a Slave like the Muslims: the Relationship a Christian have with his/her God is of a Parent who Loves, understand but is also Just. YHWH God does not judge like humans BECAUSE God sees and knows EVERYTHING.
Example: Stealing is a SIN but God's wisdom will be JUST to the Thief!


No problem!
It is still a bad situation.
The impotent man saw this dutiful faithful wives unclothedness. The man touched her all over trying to get his third leg up. The man even tried to stuff it inside to no avail.
After repeated failure
This woman who had never unclothe herself to another man other than her husband goes to the Shari'a court to seek dissolution of the marriage.
After this is granted
Several Muslim men are waiting in line with their secret desire wanting a taste of her.

And you think this nonsensical oddity, ABOMINATION and SIN is from God!?


Can you show me from the Qur'an which command of Allah Mohammed obeyed with respect to Safiyya?


I wouldn't call you a Jinn o.
I just wanted you to see the logic and feasibility of how a NEWLY married woman (probably just two weeks old in marriage) will joyfully allow another man into her chastity within three days of her husband being murdered.

Do you think this is humanly realistic?
You think three days is enough to mourn not only your husband but your father, your brothers, your cousins all murdered by Muslims!?

Think now!?

Mohammed broke the rule of Allah in the Qur'an as FOUR months and THREE days are definitely not the same.

It was your prophet who had less than THREE days Iddah period instead of the stipulated three months with Safiyya as stipulated by Allah in the Qur'an: I ask WHY?
Why did he violate the dictated rules of Allah according to Jibril?


A person who married a divorced person commit Adultery against the divorced spouse

HOWEVER, A divorced person has NOT committed Adultery until he/she remarry someone else or have sex with anyone else.

I gave you options of how Christians interpreted remarriage (under any cause). You can check it up again.



SIN is UNIVERSAL: Whatever a sin is in Japan must be a sin in Kano with God.

The Torah contains in Addition Civil laws, Hygiene laws, Morality Laws, Dietary Laws, Moral Laws, Religious laws, Covenant laws. Ceremonial laws etc. If ANY of these laws is declared a SIN or an ABOMINATION to God, so it is now and for ETERNITY.

Again I ask: Did Jesus say that
1. Moses gave the law to the children of Israel because of their heard heartedness
OR
2. God gave the law to the children of Israel because of their heard heartedness

Which one is it?



Principle:[/b]Every sin is against God(directly or indirectly) A moral sin in the Old Testament is a moral sin in the New Testament and for all ages.


[b]A law can be:
Creational/ideal: what God instituted “from the beginning.”
Moral: what is intrinsically wrong.
Civil/Provisional: a rule that manages an existing social reality without endorsing it as the ideal.

Thus, permission can be real without being prescriptive: it may prevent greater injustice while falling short of God’s design.
Moses permission to Divorce was a Civil law

eg. Jacob Married two sisters (Rachael and Lear) but such was later prohibited Leviticus 18:18



The woman remaining in a sexless marriage is just a scenario. It can be WORSE!
Again, the rule of Allah still humiliated this faithful wife whose fahjah had not been seen by any other man to have to re-divorce an impotent man who has seen touched and probably tried to stuff himself into her farjah. This woman has to repeat this experience with another waiting Muslim man.

What is the punishment of the offending Rash and Impulsive Husband? NOTHING!!

This is the perfect rule of Allah!

Your post avoids the central question. You say an innocent Christian spouse may divorce and remarry based on conviction, yet also say the spiritual union remains unbroken until death and cite Mark 10:9. Reconcile those claims please. if the union cannot be dissolved while both live, personal conviction alone cannot make remarriage consistent with that rule. 1 Corinthians 7:10–11 says a separated spouse should remain unmarried or be reconciled. Matthew 19:9 includes an exception clause, while Mark 10:11–12 states the general prohibition; Christians differ on how to harmonise them. Which passage permits remarriage, and how do you read it?

Deuteronomy 24:1–4 bars a first husband from taking back his former wife after she has married another; it does not simply declare every remarriage after divorce an abomination in every circumstance. Do we agree there or not? Matthew 19:8 describes Moses’ permission in light of hard hearts. Qur’an 2:230 concerns a third divorce. You may reject that rule, but differences between laws do not by themselves prove God changed His mind; first show the earlier rule was universal and applied identically in every community and circumstance.

Bukhari 5260 says the woman could not return to her first husband until the second marriage was consummated; it does not explicitly say she must stay with an impotent husband until cured. Jurists discuss separation or annulment in some cases, with differing conditions. On Safiyya, show why the widow’s four-months and ten day rule applied to her exact circumstances; don’t assume it settles a case involving captivity and disputed legal status. Give exact evidence, not conclusions presented as facts.

You’re mixing wine, polygamy, the Qur’an’s origin, Safiyya, and impotence into a debate about divorce and remarriage. That shifts focus. Please cite the text permitting an innocent spouse to remarry while the former spouse lives, and reconcile it with your claim that their spiritual union remains unbroken.

TenQ:
Did Jesus say what a person who divorced due to Adultery should marry someone else?
Did I not tell you exactly how Christians interpret the scriptures in determining what to do in such situations

Secondly, I never called it RULES, I said how Christians interpret the remarriage part

Your question was:
Now answer directly may an innocent wife divorce an adulterous husband and remarry while he is still alive, yes or no?

I did NOT give you rules nor rulings: I gave you options Christians take based in scriptures.

At least Allah gave you rules that are ABOMINATIONS and SIN before YHWH.

You still have NOT answered HOW and WHEN
Did such despicable acts of Remarrying a DEFILED ex-wife stop being a sin and Abomination to God?
OR
Moses was being untruthful by saying that it was both a sin and Abomination to God



Unfortunately, except you don't believe in Qur’an 2:85 and Qur’an 3:50 , it is a bad argument for you.


Since you admit that Moses wasn't telling lies, ReMarrying once Divorced Wife is a SIN and an ABOMINATION before God irrespective of where you take it.

When and How did such SIN and ABOMINATION become Halal for Muslims?

Sorry!
Did you hear me say that Jesus gave a higher standard of purity!? It would have been bad if Jesus downgraded the standard rather than upgrading it.
It seems you did not realise that Jesus raised the bar of Morality far HIGHER than that of Moses only for Mohammed to bring the standard of Morality far LOWER than that of Moses.

So, under what logic did Mohammed downgrade the the standard of morality that it is WORSE than that of Moses?.





Apply your laws to yourself whether Allah sanction what he considered is from satan. Qur’an 16:67, Qur’an 2:219 and Qur’an 4:43 before Qur’an 5:90–91
Come back after justifying this!

Secondly, did I tell you that polygamy was a sin?

It was your prophet who had less than THREE days Iddah period instead of the stipulated three months with Safiyya as stipulated by Allah in the Qur'an:
I ask WHY?
Why did he violate the dictated rules of Allah according to Jibril?


Its your call sir.

Mohammed says that the righteous dutiful Muslim woman due to no fault of hers must be ruthlessly dealt with by trapping her in a sexless marriage with an impotent husband.

So, what jurisprudence do we take?
Jurisprudence of some Muslim men or Mohammed's!


So, the question remains
Why is the Faithful and Dutiful wife suffering for the rashness of her husband?





So. is Quran 2:230 an imperfect law?

In sincerity, what could have been better to resolve this problem between a Rash Impulsive husband and his faithful and dutiful wife?

Quran 2:230 seem like the wisdom of Mohammed if you ask me.
The Quran is supposed to be the VERBATIM words of Allah. Thus, it should contain WISDOM, CLARITY, TRUTH and ACCURACY unfortunately for which the Qur'an fails miserably. It bears every signature of the words and knowledge of a 6th century Arabian man who hears stories of the Ancients and put it together as a disjointed Book!

Do you think otherwise?


So, Mohammed on the day of capture of Safiyya asked this weeping widow whose husband had just been married.

"Safiyya, when did you start your menses?" Safiyya said " two days ago!" Then Mohammed said " perfect, meaning that we can have sex tomorrow"

How you justify dirty character is only understandable by a jinn like shaitan.
You conveniently set aside the command of Allah in the Qur'an for an apparent justification from a hadith

Safiyya was NOT a slave as she was set free by Mohammed for the purpose of sex/marriage.


Allah says that the waiting period is FOUR months and not three days.

Can you show me which command of Allah Mohammed obeyed with respect to Safiyya?






See how subtly you changed options and how Christians interpret what to do after separation to RULE that is Binding?

Jesus never once said what a person who separates from his/her spouse (for whatever reason) should remarry after the separation.
Mat 19:9:
"And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her which is put away does commit adultery."

Pele!



You have still not answered this question

Can you please justify why it seems perfect and correct that a rashly and unjustly divorced wife cannot be restored back to her marriage after chastising the erring husband UNLESS she married another man and exchange orgasm with him!?

Your latest response has exposed the inconsistencies in your position even more clearly. You demand direct answers while changing your wording, skipping inconvenient verses, and treating your interpretation as the text itself.

1. You called them rules. You cannot now retreat to options.
Your own words were The Rule of Jesus is that and Under the rule of Christ. You asked, Do you need scriptures for each of these? and called contrary conduct human flesh at work. Now you say you never called them rules.

Which is it? If these are binding rules, explain how your fourth option—divorce and remarry according to personal conviction—does not violate your claim that the first spiritual union remains unbroken. If they are merely options, stop condemning Christians who interpret the texts differently as though they have necessarily rejected Christ.

2. Matthew 19:9 addresses remarriage. Answer the question.

You say Jesus never explained what a separated person should do about remarriage, yet Matthew 19:9 explicitly discusses divorce, marrying another, and adultery. So: Does Matthew 19:9 address remarriage, yes or no?

Mark 10:11–12 also calls remarriage after divorce adultery, without repeating Matthew’s exception clause. Christians debate how the passages fit together, but you cannot cite Matthew, skip Mark, and then claim your fourth option is consistent without explaining why.

If the first union remains unbroken, how can remarriage become permissible merely because someone acts according to personal conviction? State your interpretation and reconcile the passages.

3. Your argument about Moses and changed rulings remains unresolved.

You cite Qur’an 3:50 against me, yet it describes Jesus confirming the Torah while making lawful some things previously forbidden. Qur’an 2:85 condemns selective observance; it does not prove that every law given to an earlier community must apply identically to all later communities.

Matthew 19:8 says Moses permitted divorce because of hard hearts, while Jesus appeals to the original ideal. You have also insisted that there was no change in ruling. If Jesus restricted what Moses permitted, explain how you reconcile those statements.

You point to Deuteronomy 24:4 and the land God gave Israel. That establishes the passage’s context; it does not, by itself, establish that every provision must operate as an identical legal code for every later community. And Deuteronomy 24:1–4 does not simply grant husbands unlimited permission to divorce and retake their wives.

Your task is to prove universal application, not merely repeat, “When did God change His mind?”

4. Your polygamy argument demands the same explanation.

You say polygamy is not sinful in the Bible, although you appeal to the creation ideal of one man and one woman. Deuteronomy 25:5–10 addresses marriage to a deceased brother’s widow, while 2 Samuel 12:8 describes God giving David his master’s wives.

These texts do not prove that every polygamous arrangement was ideal. But they force you to explain your principle: Can a practice depart from the original ideal yet be permitted or regulated? If yes, why can that distinction apply to polygamy but not to Moses’ divorce concession?

Your separate debate about wine—Qur’an 16:67, 2:219, 4:43 and 5:90—does not answer these questions. Address it in its own post.

5. Apply the same standard to Qur’an 2:230 and Bukhari 5260.

I have never claimed Qur’an 2:230 is perfect or painless. It concerns a third divorce, not every first or second divorce. There is also a recognised minority view, associated with Ibn Taymiyyah and others, that three pronouncements in one sitting count as one; scholars disagree about its application. The hadith tradition condemns the muhallil, the man who marries a woman merely to make her lawful again for her former husband (Abu Dawud 2076).

You cannot dismiss the Islamic rule solely because it can have painful consequences while refusing to consider its context, conditions and juristic interpretations. By your own standard, is a Christian rule that leaves an innocent divorced wife unable to remarry while her first husband lives imperfect because it imposes a cost? If not, explain the consistent standard you are applying.

On Bukhari 5260, you repeatedly say the woman must stay or is trapped until her second husband is cured. But the report makes consummation relevant to returning to her former husband. Where does it say she must remain married until he is cured? Quote the words. The condition for returning to a former husband is not automatically a ruling that no dissolution or judicial remedy exists.
Marriage to an impotent man can be valid.
Wife may seek annulment/separation, depending on circumstances and school.
She isn’t automatically required to stay until he recovers. Bukhari 5260: addresses remarriage to a former husband, not a duty to stay


6. Safiyya: provide the source, not an invented conversation.

You attribute to the Prophet a conversation about when Safiyya’s menstruation began, followed by words to the effect of, Perfect, we can have sex tomorrow. Give the collection and report number. I am not aware of that exact conversation in the reports cited here.

Qur’an 2:234 prescribes four months and ten days for widows; 2:228 and 65:4 address different categories of divorced women. Sahih Muslim 1456 and Abu Dawud 2157 discuss captive women and waiting requirements, while Bukhari 4211 reports details concerning Safiyya. These sources must be examined together carefully; simply quoting the ordinary widow’s rule does not establish, without further argument, exactly how it applied to Safiyya’s circumstances.

Give the source for the alleged dialogue and explain how you reconcile these reports. Calling me a jinn is not historical evidence.


FOUR QUESTIONS. FOUR DIRECT ANSWERS.

1. Matthew 19:9: Does it address remarriage, yes or no? If yes, how do you reconcile its exception clause with Mark 10:11–12 and your fourth option?

2. Deuteronomy 24: Where does verse 4 establish that its rule must apply identically to every later community? Where does Matthew 19:8 say Moses acted without any divine authority?

3. Polygamy: If it departs from the creation ideal but is not sinful under your interpretation, what principle permits that distinction—and why can it not apply to Moses’ concession?

4. Bukhari 5260: Where does the report say the woman must remain married until her second husband is cured? Quote the words.

You do not have to agree with Islam. But distinguish scripture from interpretation, apply the same standard to both religions, and answer the questions actually asked. Repeating a conclusion, changing the subject or insulting your opponent does not prove it.

TenQ:
Yes, that describe personal conviction BUT a personal conviction is still PERSONAL and it is not Binding on ALL Christians. Unfortunately, for you, you aren't a Christian, my personal opinion has no value to you.

As a Christian, some personal situations determine choices you make. eg. Do I as a Christian take alcoholic wine? The answer is, it depends...... It is NOT a YES or NO situation.

The best I can do is to give you the shades of opinions (and its just three) amongst Christians on the matter.
It simply means that there is no explicit Bible rule on the matter.

Or better still. are all Allah's commands in the Qur'an explicitly detailed?

Dont forget that you started with stating that
" Hebrews 13:4 condemns adultery" and I asked you to quote it.

Because I told you that polygamy wasn't a sin BUT it isn't recommended and I gave you verses where Kings are not to multiply wives, and in the church , leaders are expected to have a single wife as an example because God who made us made us man and wife (not wives).

Except your objective is to tell us where God commands Israel to take multiple wives or where polygamy was declared a sin.




You will note here that Allah did NOT say that the waiting period is AFTER the NEXT Menses of the woman.

According to Allah in Qur’an 2:228, Qur'an 2:234, and Quran 65:4, Mohammed was supposed to WAIT for four Months.

Abu Dawud 2157= Is about a slave not married and thus not pregnant

Muslim 1456 = Is about SEX with slaves and NOT marriage. Check Qur’an 4:24 Mohammed married Safiyya.

Bukhari 5086= Mohammed freeing Safiyya was treated as her marriage-gift (mahr) showing that this was marriage and not just sex because she was captured


The Proof you Wanted
a. Safiyya was married to a Jew Kinana ibn al-Rabi
b. Safiyya became a widow her husband was killed by Muslims
c. Safiyya was freed by Mohammed
d. Safiyya hence was not a sex slave


Safiyya falls under the list of prohibition for SEX according to

Qur’an 4:24 (Paraphrased)
“Also (prohibited for SEX are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek with gifts from your property,—desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their WAGES as prescribed; but if, after a WAGES is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.”

Here above is Allah's prescription for Captive Slaves: Unfortunately, Safiyya was set Free By Mohammed.


Allah sets TWO main reasons for Iddah Period
1. Qur’an 2:228 Establishing pregnancy and lineage
2. Qur’an 2:234 Mourning after widowhood
3. Qur’an 2:228 opportunity for reconciliation if the husband want her back

For Safiyya, it should be FOUR Months!


Therefore,
Your prophet had less than THREE days Iddah period instead of the stipulated three months with Safiyya as stipulated by Allah in the Qur'an: WHY?
Why did he violate the dictated rules of Allah according to Jibril?




Quran 2:235
There is no blame on you for subtly showing interest in ˹divorced or widowed˺ women or for hiding ˹the intention˺ in your hearts. Allah knows that you are considering them ˹for marriage˺. But do not make a secret commitment with them—you can only show interest in them appropriately. Do not commit to the bond of marriage until the waiting period expires. Know that Allah is aware of what is in your hearts, so beware of Him. And know that Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Sorry!
Allah was telling INTERESTED Muslim men in those divorced or widowed women to follow certain rules that Mohammed did NOT also follow

There is no problem if the Muslim Man fancied any divorced/widowed woman
HOWEVER
1. They can only show their interest SUBTLY
2. They are not to make Direct Commitments with such women
3. They should not commit to a bond in Marriage UNTIL the expiration of the Iddah period.

Tell me, which of these commands of Allah did Mohammed follow?

It still showed that Mohammed is above the commands of Allah for Muslims!



My case is not about prohibiting a woman from marrying someone else.

You will note that your so-called jurisprudence is contrary to your Prophet's ruling in the Hadith Qur'an about marring an impotent man.

Bukhari 5260 / 5317
The wife of Rifaʿa al-Qurazi came to Allah’s Messenger ﷺ and said: “O Allah’s Messenger, Rifaʿa divorced me irrevocably. After him I married ʿAbd al-Rahman ibn al-Zubayr al-Qurazi, who proved to be impotent.”
Allah’s Messenger ﷺ said to her: “Perhaps you want to return to Rifaʿa? No, you cannot return to Rifaʿa until you and ʿAbd al-Rahman consummate your marriage.”

Here, Mohammed says this woman must remain in the sexless marriage with Abd Al-Raḥmān until his GBOLA gets cured.

So, what do we take?
Jurisprudence of some Muslim me or Mohammed! Perhaps the hadith is FABRICATED as usual!


So, the question remains
Why is the Faithful and Dutiful wife suffering for the rashness of her husband?




It seems you did not realise that Jesus raised the bar of Morality far HIGHER than that of Moses only for Mohammed to bring the standard of Morality far LOWER than that of Moses.

Your argument is that An ABOMINATION and SIN for the Children of Israel is actually HALAL and RIGHTEOUSNESS for the Arabs and the rest of the world!?

Does this above make sense to you?

Did such despicable acts of Remarrying a DEFILED ex-wife stop being a sin and Abomination to God?
OR
Moses was being untruthful by saying that it was both a sin and Abomination to God


Again, If it was true that the Torah said that Remarrying a once divorced husband is BOTH a SIN and an ABOMINATION , when did God change his MIND and WHY for him to give a different ruling in Quran 2:230




Guess you became dazed as I didn't make the claim you wantbto argue about.

Perhaps I should remind you of my earlier opening sentence about polygamy in the Bible.

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And I gave you scriptural references



Christians have never claimed that the Bible is a DICTATION from God. The Bible is INSPIRATION to a Chosen Man by God to Chronicle Events of God's dealings with His people, mans actions and results, Prophecies, Teachings and Instructions for RIGHTEOUSNESS. The Bible is written by Humans as it those me that God inspire to Chronicle Past. Present and Future Events as directed by God.

The Quran is the VERBATIM words of Allah. Thus, it should contain WISDOM, CLARITY, TRUTH and ACCURACY unfortunately for which the Qur'an fails miserably. It bears every signature of the words and knowledge of a 6th century Arabian man who hears stories of the Ancients and put it together as a disjointed Book!

Abraham, Moses and Mohammed being the first Muslim is just a test of consistency that need gymnastics external to the Qur'an to resolve




An innocent wife does NOT have to divorce her adulterous husband or vice versa.
1. She could choose the path of FORGIVENESS
Mat 18:21-22:
"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus said to him, I say not to you, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

2. She could decide to SEPARATE from her husband until she sees changes or repentance then Return
1 Corinthians 7:10–11
“A wife should not separate from her husband—but if she does, let her remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband—and a husband should not divorce his wife.”

3. She could choose to SEPARATE from her husband and stay Unmarried.
1 Corinthians 7:10–11
“A wife should not separate from her husband—but if she does, let her remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband—and a husband should not divorce his wife.”

4. She could choose to DIVORCE her husband and marry someone else based on her conviction according to her level of faith and walk with God to decide on what course of action to take in such situations. At this point, they place themselves at the Mercy, Wisdom , Justice and most importantly Love of their Father in Heaven.

Whatever her choice, her spiritual union with her husband is not broken for only God can dissolve such a union.

Mar 10:9:
"What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."






You have still not answered this question

[color=blue]Can you please justify why it seems perfect and correct that a rashly and unjustly divorced wife cannot be restored back to her marriage after chastising the erring husband UNLESS she married another man and exchange orgasm with him!?

You now say there is no explicit Bible rule on whether the innocent wife may remarry and that it comes down to personal conviction. But you posted "The Rule of Jesus" as numbered points, and rule 3 says anyone who marries a divorced person commits adultery. You used it to tell me we aren't in the same category. So is rule 3 binding or not? If it is, your option 4, divorce and remarry on conviction, is adultery you ask God to forgive. If it isn't, you can't hold Islam to a standard your own side says doesn't exist, or call pastors who read it differently human flesh at work.

Your options 2 and 3 are the same verse, 1 Corinthians 7:10 to 11. Mark 10:11 to 12 says a man who divorces and remarries commits adultery, and so does a woman who divorces her husband and remarries, with no exception clause. Where is option 4 in any verse? Your wine example fails too, since adultery doesn't depend on how a person feels about it.

You say the Bible is inspired humans chronicling and the Quran is verbatim. Then abomination before the Lord in Deut 24:4 is a chronicler's wording, with the same standing as 24:1 to 3.Which verse makes verse 4 God's and verses 1 to 3 Moses'? And a Mosaic civil law isn't God's verbatim word, so a different Quranic rule isn't God changing His mind. Deut 24:4 also gives its own reason, in the part you highlighted. You shall not cause the land to sin which the LORD gives you for an inheritance. It is tied to Israel in its land, so Moses wasn't lying, and the Quran says each community got its own law (Quran 5:48). Even in your Bible, Deut 24:2 lets her become another man's wife and Jesus calls that adultery. The rule Israel lived under changed. And I never questioned the Torah's authorship, you did, when you said Moses had no revelation for divorce.

Moses permitted it, and I've never denied that. From the beginning it was not so says the permission wasn't the original design, not that God had no part. Jesus gives the same Torah commands to Moses in Mark 7:10 and to God in Matthew 15:4. Polygamy also departs from the beginning, you say it's no sin, and 2 Samuel 12:8 has God saying He gave David his master's wives. So did God sanction what departs from the beginning, or not?

On Bukhari 5260 you say she must stay until he is cured. Those words aren't in the report. It has the Prophet pbuh saying she can't return to Rifa'ah until the second husband has consummated, a condition for her return and not an order to stay. Jurists deal with impotence by judicial separation and annulment. And you say perhaps the hadith is fabricated, after citing it as proof. Pick one. If your scenario is three divorces, not necessarily in one sitting, he took her back twice before the third. That's a pattern, not one rash slip.

I never called Quran 2:230 perfect, so your loaded question has a false premise. I said the burden is real. Your own answer for the innocent wife is celibacy, reconciliation, or a conviction with no rule. Is that better, and on what verse?

On Safiyya, Quran 4:24 forbids married women except those the right hands possess, and Muslim 1456 connects that verse with the married captives at Awtas. Abu Dawud 2157 gives those captives one cycle, so your claim that it concerns an unmarried slave is wrong. Quran 2:234 is for widows of Muslim husbands, and Qur'an 2:228 and 65:4 are for divorced women. Show the verse for four months, or withdraw it.

So three plain answers, one line each. Is rule 3 binding, yes or no? Is remarriage after divorce adultery under Mark 10:11 to 12, yes or no? Which verse makes Deut 24:4 God's and 24:1 to 3 Moses'? You asked and I answered. Now it's your turn. If rule 3 isn't binding, name one rule of Christ on remarriage that is.

TenQ:
I wish you quote Heb13:4 accurately as the spirit of argument has overtaken you again.

Of course, the first Muslim is Mohammed Qur'an 6:163,
and a Muslim before Mohammed Qur'an 7:143 and Adam was the first Muslim because he's a prophet. Coming from a book dictated by the Almighty Allah means that Allah must be human.



It isnt difficult to checkup my answer.
What opinions do Christians have on these. All these to shift the point of discussion from my initial questions!?

Dont forget that the original issue at hand has not been addressed

1. Your prophet had less than THREE days Iddah period instead of the stipulated three months with Safiyya as stipulated by Allah in the Qur'an: WHY?

2. Tell me, what is the MORALITY, LOGIC and SENSE of this Law of Allah and his Prophet?

2. Why is the Faithful and Dutiful wife suffering for the rashness of her husband?

I am not sure you have provided ANY clear answers



My hold is that a Christian be convinced according to his level of his/her faith and walk with God to decide on what course of action to take in such situations. Did I tell you that the texts stated that three options are available for Christians or did I tell you how Christians interpret the verse!?

Is this so that you wouldn't have to answer my own questions!? Till now, you have ignored my question

If it was true that the Torah said that Remarrying a once divorced husband is BOTH a SIN and an ABOMINATION , when did God change his MIND and WHY for him to give a different ruling in Quran 2:230

At least, I showed you that Jesus said it was Moses who gave the law of divorce to the children of Israel because of their hard heartedness.
Unfortunately, you are required to believe in the previous scriptures Qur'an 2:136 and Jesus as YHWH restated the rule according to the beginning! Did I not show you from Mal 2:16 that God says that He hates Divorce!?

Did such despicable acts of Remarrying a DEFILED ex-wife stop being a sin and Abomination to God?
OR
Moses was being untruthful by saying that it was both a sin and Abomination to God


Again, If it was true that the Torah said that Remarrying a once divorced husband is BOTH a SIN and an ABOMINATION , when did God change his MIND and WHY for him to give a different ruling in Quran 2:230



Over to you?

I still await your proof
The claim of Deut 24:1-3 being from Moses wasn't from me, it was from Jesus. Matt 19:8

Did Jesus say that
Moses permitted the children of Israel to divorce their wives
OR
God permitted the children of Israel to divorce their wives

What do you think Jesus meant by the statement "BUY from the beginning, it was not so!"



[color=blue][/color]
If you question the Torahs author, Allah is made a liar. Didn't your Qur'an claim that Moses book was written by Allah himself Qur'an 7:145:




You as well as me know that I have never disputed on you the modality of divorce except that the Muslim man had pronounced it thrice (not necessarily at the same time.

My question is that you justify that Qur’an 2:230 is the best rule

I said: " Qur'an 2:230 is still ethically nauseous and illogical otherwise, show me the common sense in this?"
AND
If in the case you do not understand, I said again "Can you please justify why it seems perfect and correct that a rashly and unjustly divorced wife cannot be restored back to her marriage after chastising the erring husband UNLESS she married another man and exchange orgasm with him!?"


This is supposed to be a rule dictated by your God Allah



So, why must the innocent woman bear the Injustice of being UNJUSTLY divorced by here husband.

Can you please explain what happens when the new husband is impotent and thus cannot consummate the marriage? Is the woman trapped in an endless woe? Tell me, logically how can the two exchange orgasms where this new husband is impotent?
I expect your honest answer?
Is this justice of Allah for the faithful and Dutiful wife who married a rash impulsive man?




Unfortunately, you were bent on arguments as I had told you that spiritual unions can inly be broken by God.

Secondly, there is no command for a woman to leave her marriage because of Adultery in the first place as she could choose that path of forgiveness. Haven't you read Matt 18:22 before?
Jesus gave the only reason why divorce may be permitted and it is Adultery BUT Jesus did not say if remarriage is her only response. Matt 19:9 Thus, this person acts according to his level of faith and conviction.



For a law from the WISDOM of Allah himself, Can you explain WHY it is sensible that restoration is impossible without tasting the orgasm of another husband?
Can you please justify why it seems perfect and correct that a rashly and unjustly divorced wife cannot be restored back to her marriage after chastising the erring husband UNLESS she married another man and exchange orgasm with him!?

TenQ, you answered my yes or no question by saying each Christian decides according to their faith. That describes personal conviction, not the biblical rule. So please answer directly. Does the exception in Matthew 19:9 allow the innocent wife of an adulterer to remarry while he lives? Yes or no, and cite the verse. My answers to your points come first, and my questions about your conviction follow them.

On Safiyya, you said three months. That is the waiting period for divorced women (65:4). Your own quotation says four months and ten days, which is 2:234 (you labelled it 2:235), so your citation contradicts your claim. 2:234 speaks of wives of deceased Muslim men. For captives the reports give one menstrual cycle (Abu Dawud 2157, Muslim 1456). Bukhari 4211 says she became clean at Sadd al-Sahba' and then he married her, and Bukhari 5085 puts the three-day stay after that, as the time the marriage was consummated. So the three days you call her waiting period were not the waiting period. If a source says three months, name it. Otherwise withdraw it.

On Quran 2:230, I've already said the rule is a real burden when both spouses want to reunite after a valid third divorce. Nobody is ordered to marry anyone, and the muhallil is cursed (Abu Dawud 2076). For an impotent second husband, jurists discuss judicial separation and annulment, so she is not trapped.

On Deut 24:4, "abomination before the LORD" is Moses' own wording, in the same passage as the permission you say was his alone. Either his statements about God are reliable, which gives 24:2 the same standing, or they aren't, and you have no divine verdict to set against Quran 2:230. Jesus gives the command to Moses in Mark 7:10 and to God in Matthew 15:4, so "Moses permitted" doesn't prove God had no part in it.

On polygamy:

Hebrews 13:4 (KJV): "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."

My earlier quote of Hebrews 13:4 didn't display cleanly, so here it is again. But you said polygamy is no sin anywhere in the Bible. A man with a second living wife is not committing adultery against the first, so the first union doesn't make a second marriage adultery. Yet you say remarriage after divorce is adultery because the first union remains. Those two claims don't fit together.

On Quran 6:163, "first of those who submit" doesn't make Allah human, or Paul's "not I, but the Lord" in 1 Cor 7:10-12 would make the Bible human. The Qur'an also calls Abraham a Muslim (3:67).

Now, since you've made conviction your answer, tell us what it covers. You've earlier said that anything a pastor, bishop or church member does against Jesus' rule is "human flesh at work." Is a pastor who marries a divorced believer doing the flesh's work, or acting on legitimate conviction? You can't have both. When a Christian divorces and remarries, is that adultery under your reading of Matthew 5:32 and 19:9, yes or no? If yes, then "mercy" is forgiveness for an ongoing sin, and you should say the remarried believer must leave the second marriage. If no, the first union was not unbroken. And which of your three readings of 1 Cor 7:15 do you hold? Say which, or say you hold none.

You condemn 2:230 for its burden on one woman. Your own position leaves the innocent wife with celibacy for life, or a choice she must make alone with no rule to guide her. I've answered what you asked about Islam. Please answer what I asked about your own position, starting with the yes or no above.

TenQ:
Go back and check my response to this question.




Polygamy is not a sin anywhere in the Bible.
Polygamy is however NOT recommended because Jesus said God made them man and wivennot man and wives.
Anyone who would be an example ot other beleivers must have one wife.


Deut 17:17
“And he (a king) shall not multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply for himself silver and gold.”

1Tim 3:2:
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

Tit 1:6:
"If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly."


As per moses acting unilaterally or NOT. the ball is in your court to prove your point

Remember I asked you
5. Even though several times in the Torah we had seen Moses act unilaterally even sometimes contrary to Gods command, you think otherwise. Therefore. If you think that Moses did not act unilaterally even though Jesus alluded it, I then challenge you to present YOUR explicit proof that Deut 24:4 is from Moses and not from God as in Deut 24:1-3



This was why I said Islam is a physical religion and you cannot understand spiritual things.

You just proved it again.




You did question the authorship of the Torah and I told you the implications with evidences

Qur'an 2:230 is still ethically nauseous and illogical otherwise, show me the common sense in this




Again, I have answered your questions except you just didn't read without typing this.





Again, you have avoided my Question
Can you please justify why it seems perfect and correct that a rashly and unjustly divorced wife cannot be restored back to her marriage after chastising the erring husband UNLESS she married another man and exchange orgasm with him!?

You say polygamy is not a sin anywhere in the Bible, just not recommended, because Jesus said God made them man and wife. But Hebrews 13:4 condemns adultery[/b], not polygamy by name, while 2 Samuel 12:8 has Nathan telling David that God gave him his master’s house and wives. Exodus 21:10 and Deuteronomy 21:15 also address circumstances involving multiple wives. [b]These texts complicate the claim that every departure from the original ideal must be a human ruling independent of God. Abu Dawud 4449 also records Muhammad affirming the Torah as revelation.

You told me to check your answer about the adulterer’s wife, but you still have not answered yes or no. Your stated rule is separation, not divorce; the separated spouse remains unmarried or reconciles (1 Corinthians 7:10 to 11), and only death ends the union. So under your stated position, the innocent wife may not remarry while her husband lives. If I have misunderstood, correct me plainly.

On 1 Corinthians 7:15, you listed three readings and said God knows how to deal justly with such cases. Which do you hold, and where does the text say so? You said she is under no bondage not to remarry. If she may, the union ended without death, and 7:39 does not settle it. If she may not, say so and defend it. You cannot quote 7:39 as if it explains every other passage about release.

You say the ball is in my court and again demand proof that Deuteronomy 24:4 is from Moses and not God. I accept that Moses stated it truthfully. The claim that verses 1 to 3 are merely his unauthorised ruling is yours, and you have not established it. You promised examples of Moses acting unilaterally, but merely saying it happened does not prove that this divorce provision was one of those cases. You also claim I questioned the Torah’s authorship. Quote the sentence where I did. If Qur’an 5:43 is your proof that Allah recognises the Torah as containing God’s judgment, you can’t also use it to say Moses made the divorce law on his own.

Now to Qur’an 2:230, which you say I have avoided. I never claimed the rule was perfect, so do not put that claim in my mouth. A husband who divorces rashly has not necessarily lost his wife permanently. After the first and second divorces, reconciliation is possible under the rules in Quran 2:228 to 2:229; the third divorce is treated differently. There is also a recognised minority ruling that three pronouncements in one sitting count as one. Ibn Abbas reports in Sahih Muslim 1472 that triple pronouncements counted as one during the Prophet’s time, Abu Bakr’s time and the first two years of Umar’s caliphate. Umar then enforced them as three. Ibn Taymiyya later defended the one-divorce view. Not every school accepts it, and I have acknowledged that.

Nobody is forced to marry another man, and the man who marries her only to make her lawful for her former husband is cursed, as is the former husband for whom this is done (Abu Dawud 2076). So a sham marriage is not a legitimate shortcut. I have already acknowledged that the rule imposes a real burden when both former spouses want to reunite after a valid third divorce. You may argue that burden is unjust, but you must assess the actual rule, including its distinctions, rather than treating every divorce as though it triggers the same consequence.

So answer plainly. May the innocent wife of an adulterous husband remarry while he is alive, yes or no? If yes, how does that fit your claim that only death ends the union? If no, own it and say why it’s better than the rule you’re condemning.

TenQ:
You just love to argue as if the argument will make your position correct.

1. As per weakening of Authorship of the Torah, IF it is TRUE then the Quran is FALSE.
a. Your prophet didn't doubt the authorship or authenticity of the Torah Sunan Abi Dawud 4449
b. Allah didn't doubt the authorship or authenticity of the Torah Qur’an 2:85 , Qur'an 5:43 , Qur'an 5:43

2. Even NOW (without using any previous scripture), Quran 2:230 is nauseous and unethical!
You think it makes sense that a rashly and unjustly divorced wife cannot be restored back to her marriage after chastising the erring husband UNLESS she married another man and exchange orgasm with him!?

Think now!?

3. With respect to Changing in Ruling: I never agreed that there was a change in Ruling (By God). Moses permitted the Children of Israel to divorce their Wives BUT God says He hates divorce Malachi 2:16 and Jesus (as YHWH) It wasn't so from the beginning where God made Adam and Eve his and and wife.
So, God did NOT change His ruling: Moses did?

4. With respect to a wife divorced by her Unbelieving husband.

What the scripture say is that such a woman becomes UNBOUND to the Unbelieving man.
Christians have different understanding of this
i. The unbound means she is free from the marriage BUT NOT free to remarry
ii. The unbound means she is free from the marriage AND thus free to remarry because the divorcing spouse is an Unbeliever.
iii. God is Wise, Merciful and Gracious and He knows how to deal justly with such cases

Non-the-less, marriage still remains a spiritual union.
Spiritual unions cannot be broken except by God.

Mat 19:6:
"And so, now they are not two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no man separate.""


Only death dissolves a spiritual union.
Even though you wouldn't understand: even fornication with a harlot is a spiritual union not to speak of marriage.

1Cor 6:16:
"What? know you not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, said he, shall be one flesh."



For Christians, the Scripture allows for separation but NOT divorce

1Cor 7:10-11:
"And to the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife."


5. Even though several times in the Torah we had seen Moses act unilaterally even sometimes contrary to Gods command, you think otherwise. Therefore. If you think that Moses did not act unilaterally even though Jesus alluded it, I then challenge you to present YOUR explicit proof that Deut 24:4 is from Moses and not from God as in Deut 24:1-3


6. You said:
"Explain why that is morally better than a rule that bars reunion with the first husband unless a stated condition is met, while leaving her free to marry someone else."



Can you please justify why it seems perfect and correct that a rashly and unjustly divorced wife cannot be restored back to her marriage after chastising the erring husband UNLESS she married another man and exchange orgasm with him!?


At least there is hope for a separated Christian to return back to his/her spouse or stay celibate or At worst, some divorced Christians even throw themselves at the Mercy of their Father in Heaven while they remarry someone else.

Calling me a lover of argument answers nothing, so test your own rule.
You say marriage is a permanent spiritual union that only death ends, so anyone who marries a divorced person commits adultery. You also say divorce is allowed when a spouse can't live with an adulterer, and now that Scripture allows separation but not divorce. Take the wife of an adulterer. She separates. May she remarry while he lives, yes or no? If no, your one exception frees nobody. If yes, something other than death ended the bond.
Now polygamy. May a man be one flesh with two living wives at once? Exodus 21:10, a passage you cited, speaks of a man who takes another wife and regulates it without condemning it. Deut 21:15 does the same, and in 2 Samuel 12:8 God says through Nathan that He gave David his master's wives. If polygamy is allowed, the union isn't exclusive, and your claim that a second marriage is adultery because the first union remains has nothing under it. If it isn't allowed, explain why God regulated it and even claimed to give wives. You can't say Moses did it alone, because Nathan speaks for God.
Your 1 Corinthians 6:16 point makes it worse. If joining with a harlot makes one flesh until death, every man who has slept with someone is bound to her for life and every later marriage is adultery. Paul never says that.
On 1 Corinthians 7:15, you said she is under no bondage not to remarry, then offered three readings. Which do you hold? And 7:10 to 11 gives a wife who leaves two options, stay unmarried or be reconciled, which for a husband who won't change is celibacy for life. You can't plead God's mercy for your hard cases and deny it to 2:230.
On the Torah, I never questioned its authorship, you did, and you said it doesn't matter whether 24:4 is Moses' or God's. The Quran affirms the Torah (5:43), says it confirms and stands over earlier scripture (5:48), and says Jesus made some forbidden things lawful (3:50). A later ruling replacing an earlier one is what you accept between Moses and Jesus. A difference is not a contradiction. And on Q2:230, nauseous is a feeling, the text says consummation, a third divorce follows two chances, and Ibn Taymiyya counts a triple in one sitting as one.
So answer two things. May the innocent spouse of an adulterer remarry? And may a man be one flesh with two living wives?

TenQ:
So. whats your argument about since morning? Just to occupy space!?

So, if I get you correctly
1. You agree that Moses (not God) permitted the law of divorce for the Isrealites because they were heard hearted according to Jesus.

2. You also admitted that Moses claimed in Deut 24:4 that remarrying a divorced woman after she has been defiled by another man is both an ABOMINATION and a SIN to God

3. You admitted that Moses did not tell LIES against God wrt Deut 24:4.

4. You also agree that some words and actions of Moses in the Torah were not directed by God.


THEREFORE, LOGICALLY , if the four above are TRUE and Moses had not lied against God in Deut 24:4, then Deut 24:4 is from God and not from Moses.

If you do not agree with the above conclusion then the BURDEN is on YOU to present an explicit proof that Deut 24:4 is from Moses and not from God as in Deut 24:1-3



NOTE:
Whether Deut 24:4 is from Moses or directed by God as long as it is TRUE is a problem for Islam.
If Deut 24:4 is a true statement from Moses, it still makes the remarriage of a defiled divorced former wife is an ABOMINATION and a SIN to God.

It is still BAD for Islam and it is understandable because Allah is not YHWH



Exodus 21:7-11 Is a Civil Law that regulates the legal and material obligations of a man who takes a female Hebrew servant as wife or concubine;
1 Corinthians 7:15 addresses a mixed-faith marriage in which the unbelieving spouse deserts.

Whether acknowledged or not, spiritual union remains between the married even when divorced.

In Exodus, the Civil law is that at worst , if such a servant is divorced, she must be set free to go back to jer family.

In Corinthians , if the Unbelieving spouse exists the marriage, then the Believing woman is under no bondage not to remarry.

Notwithstanding, the spiritual union is unbroken. In fact, only DEATH dissolves a marriage union.

1 Corinthians 7:39:
“A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.”

You wrote that it doesn't matter whether Deut 24:4 is from Moses or God, as long as it's true. That weakens authorship as the deciding point of your objection, since you now need to explain why a true rule that differs from Quran 2:230 is incompatible with one God giving different rulings in different ages. You accept that rulings changed between Moses and Jesus. A difference is not yet a contradiction, and saying Allah is not YHWH is the very thing you have to prove.
Your deductive reasoning also fails. Your first point adds the words not God to what I said. I said Jesus says Moses permitted divorce because of hard hearts, nothing more. The claim that Moses acted independently of God is your addition. Your fourth point says some of Moses' words and actions weren't directed by God. If so, a statement being true cannot, by itself, establish where it came from. You still haven't shown that Deut 24:1 to 3 is only Moses' unauthorised ruling. That is your claim, so the burden is yours. A verse calling something an abomination before the LORD does not prove that the verses before it have a different source.
On your marriage bond, you say the spiritual union stays unbroken even when a spouse is released, in Exodus and in 1 Corinthians 7:15, and that only death dissolves it, citing 1 Corinthians 7:39. Your rule 3 says anyone who marries a divorced person commits adultery because the union remains. Yet you also said the deserted believer in 7:15 is under no bondage not to remarry, while her husband lives. If she may remarry without adultery, explain how that fits an unbroken union. If you distinguish being released from the obligation to remain from the bond itself, explain that distinction and how she can remarry without adultery under your rule 3. If she may not remarry, why did you describe her as free? And in Exodus 21:7 to 11, how do you reconcile the woman going free with your claim that only death ends the marriage? Calling it a civil law does not answer that.
You've argued that an innocent woman cannot remarry without adultery while her husband lives. Explain why that is morally better than a rule that bars reunion with the first husband unless a stated condition is met, while leaving her free to marry someone else. You can't condemn the burden in Quran 2:230 while treating the consequences of your own interpretation as beyond scrutiny.

TenQ:
You are unfortunately just repeating yourself while dodging reason.

I have asked you a simple question to force you to think and not just repeat the same questions over and over.










PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION IF YOU ARE INDEED TRUTHFUL ABOUT THIS DISCUSSION

Did Jesus claim that
God permitted Divorce for the children of Israel
OR that
Moses permitted divorce for the children of Israel?

Your answer shows if you are being OBJECTIVE in your quest.

Over to you!

For the upteenth time here is the answer again.Jesus said Moses permitted divorce for the hardness of your hearts. He did not say God permitted it, and he did not say Moses and not God. No verse says that. I've now answered it more than once, and each time you've asked it again as if I hadn't.
Meanwhile you haven't answered what Exodus 21:10 to 11 and 1 Corinthians 7:15 do to your spiritual union. You haven't given a text that separates Deut 24:4 from verses 1 to 3. And you haven't said whether Jesus ever claimed Moses acted without God. That is refusing to answer, not looking for the truth.

TenQ:
Its all about your kind.

Their conscience is dead so much that they relish mixing Allah's name with EVIL actions like Murder and Terrorism.

A chant of Allahu-akba is usually followed up with evil

I see, so as it's pronounce in daily obligatory prayers people die in droves. Obviously you are not serious.

TenQ:
You are promoting argument from silence.

If that is the case:
Did Allah cancel Mutah for you MUSLIMS?
It is a YES or NO Question!



It seems your take is that Moses was ALWAYS directed by God for his actions and speech!

What if I show you that Moses many times acted unilaterally without God in the Torah: will it suffice for you?

What if I show you that Moses's unilateral actions were NOT always sanctioned by God as per your argument? will it also suffice for you?



1. You admitted that Moses was not telling lies in Deut 24:4
2. You also recognised that Jesus said that "Moses permitted Divorce" for the children of Israel because of their hard heartedness Mat 19:8




PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION IF YOU ARE INDEED TRUTHFUL ABOUT THIS DISCUSSION

Did Jesus claim that
God permitted Divorce for the children of Israel
OR that
Moses permitted divorce for the children of Israel?

You demand answers from me, but only answered some of mine, so credit where it's due. You say a man who marries a divorced woman can't escape adultery. But the main questions are still untouched. What do Exodus 21:10 to 11 and 1 Corinthians 7:15 do to your spiritual union? What text splits verse 4 from verses 1 to 3, when all you've done is assert the second part is God's? And did Jesus say Moses acted without God? Yes or no, and quote the verse.

"If you are truthful" is not how a person asks a question, and you call my case an argument from silence while yours rests on Matthew 19:8 not mentioning God.
My case isn't from silence. I gave you Numbers 20:7 to 12, Exodus 33:7 to 11, Leviticus 1:1, Deut 5:31 and Matthew 15:4. I never said Moses was always directed by God. So show me your cases where he acted unilaterally. Each one needs its own text, and when Moses departs from God's instruction, as in Numbers 20, God answers with a rebuke. Nothing like that follows the divorce provision.
On your question, Jesus said Moses permitted divorce because of hard hearts. He did not say God permitted it, and he did not say Moses and not God.
Mutah gets its own post once the divorce debate is done. It doesn't replace these questions.

E

TenQ:
Its all about your kind.

Their conscience is dead so much that they relish mixing Allah's name with EVIL actions like Murder and Terrorism.

You don't even see you contradicting your lie. Did you not say the praise of Allah is said as a precursor to your allegations of terror. Obviously you are not aware of your own statements

TenQ:
You smuggled in this
that Moses gave the divorce provision under God's authority?

You fail to understand that Moses acted unilaterally many times in the Torah!


No sir! Moses (and not God) gave the lawn according to Jesus statement


Now you are coming closer to the truth

1. You admitted that Moses was not telling lies in Deut 24:4
2. You also recognised that Jesus said that "Moses permitted Divorce" for the children of Israel because of their hard heartedness Mat 19:8


Did Jesus claim that
God permitted Divorce for the children of Israel
OR that
Moses permitted divorce for the children of Israel?

You say I smuggled in a clause. It sat inside a yes or no question, so you were free to say no. You said no, so now give the verse that says Moses acted without God. Moses acted unilaterally many times is not that verse. When Moses departs from God's instruction, the Torah says so and God answers, as in Numbers 20:7 to 12 where he strikes the rock and is rebuked. Nothing like that follows the divorce provision, and Deut 24:4 sits beside it calling the return an abomination before the LORD.
Now your question. Jesus said Moses permitted divorce because of hard hearts. I never said he said God permitted it. But Moses permitted it is not Moses and not God. Those last words are yours, so quote the sentence where Jesus says them. In Mark 10:5 he says Moses wrote this precept for you, and in Matthew 15:4 he credits another Mosaic command to God.
Even if you were right, it would show a concession in one age and a stricter ideal in another. It wouldn't show a different author for Quran 2:230.
Two questions are still waiting. What do Exodus 21:10 to 11 and 1 Corinthians 7:15 do to your spiritual union, and can those spouses remarry? Answer them in your next post, or say plainly that you have no answer.

TenQ:
If I said I understand your position, it would be a lie.


1. You admitted that Moses was not telling lies in Deut 24:4
2. You recognised that Jesus said that "Moses permitted Divorce" for the children of Israel because of their hard heartedness Mat 19:8:

So, if Moses was not telling lies in Deut 24:4 , was Jesus the one telling Lies in Mat 19:8: that Moses gave the law BUT it wasn't so from the Beginning with God.


So, back to you. If Moses wasn't being untruthful in Deut 24:4, was Jesus the one speaking LIES and Falsehood that Moses gave the law against the beginning as designed by God?


So, over to you!

Now that's a false choice. I take Moses and Jesus at their word, and neither of them is lying. In Deut 24:4 Moses says a first husband may not take his former wife back after another marriage, and he calls it an abomination before the Lord. In Matthew 19:8 Jesus says Moses permitted divorce because of hard hearts, though it wasn't so from the beginning. One is a limit on a return, and the other is a concession set against God's original design, so they don't collide. For one of them to be a lie you'd need a third claim that neither of them makes, that Moses gave the divorce law with no authority from God. That claim is yours.
Jesus doesn't say it either. He says Moses permitted it, and in Mark 10:5 that Moses wrote you this precept. In Matthew 15:4 he credits a Mosaic command to God. A concession given because of the people's hearts is a changed ruling for a changed situation, and you accept that between Moses and Jesus. So you've answered your own question. Both spoke truly, and a later ruling that differs from an earlier one doesn't prove a different author, which is what I've said about 2:230.
If there's a sentence you don't understand, quote it and I'll put it more simply. If you can't name one, the questions still stand.
So here's a yes or no for you. Do you accept that Moses and Jesus both spoke truly, and that Moses gave the divorce provision under God's authority? If yes, your claim of a different source for Quran 2:230 is gone. If no, point me to the verse that says Moses acted without God.
Two questions are also still waiting. What do Exodus 21:10 to 11 and 1 Corinthians 7:15 do to your spiritual union, and can those spouses remarry?

TenQ:
A Muslim will argue just for the sake of remaining in the argument.

The 911 jihadisits did it in the name of Allah.
Boko haram will slaughter human beings in the name of Allah
Even Fulani Kidnappers will kidnap in the name of Allah.


Who is this Allah?
Could it be satan!?

Can you stay focused and stop shaking like a worm in salt.

TenQ:
It is not me.

A plane was almost turned into a bomb like 911 a few weeks ago.


I can never understand and reconcile HOW your people could be slaughtering a human being while shouting Allahu Akbar!


Do you think this is normal?

Where's the Allahu Akbar statement in the few weeks ago incident? Detailed official findings covering the weapon, sequence, motive, radicalization history, confession, and prevention by crew/passengers contain no mention of the co-pilot (or anyone) shouting Allahu Akbar or any verbal declaration during the attack, or similar religious slogans as part of the incident

TenQ:
Mutah was an example of laws propagated by Allah and Mohammed without understanding. And we will come back to that.

Zayd was an example of Muslims shamelessly passing their wives around even up to the wobes of their sons.

Retribution is an example of misapplied law of Moses



Is it true that I told you that the Torah is a compilation of Chronicles, and Several kind of Laws?

Meaning that NOT every verse in the Torah is the word of or from God. But you chose to ignore this by insisting that EVERY WORD in the Torah is from God.
1. Jesus said: Moses permitted Divorced because the children of Israel were heard hearted Deut 24:1-3
2. But Moses stated that If a Woman be Divorced and defiled by another man, it is an ABOMINATION and SIN to God.

Except your point is that Moses LIED against God.

So,
Do you think Moses LIED against Hod in Deut 24:4 ?

Please respond without multitudes of words



1. Deut 24:1-3 is modality for Divorce.
Jesus said: This permission was given by Moses
Mat 19:8:
"He said to them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so."

2. Deut 24:4 Moses explained that in the case of Divorce, a man cannot remarry his former Wife who has been defiled by another man BECAUSE it is both a SIN and an ABOMINATION to God


So, my question again is,
Is Moses telling LIES against God?



So, simple question that requires
A YES or NO plus one or two sentences of explanation if need be!



I wait for your response

No, Moses isn't lying about God in Deut 24:4, and I never said he was. You said he unilaterally gave the divorce law with no revelation, meaning apart from God, and that is the claim I've been asking you to support. Yes, you told me the Torah is a compilation of chronicles and different kinds of law, and I accept that. I never said every verse is God's word. I said you haven't shown where Moses' authority stops, and you haven't.
Your first post said Moses permitted divorce because of hard hearts and that it wasn't God's plan, which is what Jesus says in Matthew 19:8. Unilaterally and no revelation only came later, when you were pressed, and no verse backs them. Verse 4 deals with a case that starts with her already divorced, so it only makes sense inside the same speech as verses 1 to 3. If Moses speaks truly about God in verse 4, his word counts in that speech. You even split it yourself, saying the second part of Moses' is God's, with no text for the split.
Now look at how the Torah and its readers applied it. Verse 2 says she departs and becomes another man's wife, and the text attaches no penalty to that. Jewish law reads verse 4 as barring one thing only, her return to the first husband after another marriage, and reads the get as freeing her to marry any other man (Mishnah Gittin 9:3). That differs from Quran 2:230 on the return itself, and I'm not hiding it. But it has the same shape, a restriction on reunion with one husband and freedom to marry anyone else. Your rule says every man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. The Torah you call partly God's, as its own people applied it, says the opposite. So either Jesus overrode that, which is the changed ruling you accept between Moses and Jesus, or your rule has no support in the passage you're leaning on. Either way, a difference in rulings doesn't show a different source for Qur'an 2:230.
Jesus doesn't call Moses a liar either. In Mark 10:3 he asks what Moses commanded, and in 10:5 he says Moses wrote this precept.
I answered your yes or no. Now answer mine. What do Exodus 21:10 to 11 and 1 Corinthians 7:15 do to your spiritual union, and can those spouses remarry?

TenQ:
If someone just shouted Eriwo ya in an Aeroplane, I wouldn't panic

If anyone just shouted Hallelujah in an Aeroplane, I wouldn't panic!

HOWEVER,
If someone just shouted Allahu Akbar in an Aeroplane, my heart would skip a beat because the next thing could be a BOMB EXPLOSION.



Unfortunately, it is what it is!
Unfortunately!

Too bad you don't speak for everyone even if it is your wish to.

TenQ:
A sudden shout of Allahu Akbar by a TRUE faithful in public is enough to make one's heart race in FEAR!

You never know what is about to happen: someone may be tired of this life and is prepared for his virgins in jannah

Do I just take your word for it or this claim of yours is statistically backed. Calling Allah great has no such effect that I know

TenQ:
I know you want to flee. I have given you the answer by using your EXACT rue on you.
Moses said:
Deu 24:4:
"Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and you shall not cause the land to sin , which the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance."

You insist that I should provide evidence that this is from God.

I now flip it back tyo you, since you refused to listen to common sense
1. Allah ordered Mutah for you Muslims in Qur’an 4:24
2. There exist zero evidence that Allah cancelled Mutah in the Quran
3. Mohammed claimed that Allah has cancelled Mutah till the day of resurection

Is this true? Should we believe Mohammed's word about Allah?

After you answer this question , we can apply your answer to your query and then go back to the law of retribution

I haven't fled. I've answered every post of yours, and I'm still on Deut 24 where you started. What I won't do is chase a new topic each time you hit a question you can't answer. First it was retribution, now Mutah, and before that Zayd and paradise. That isn't a deal, it's a pile of side issues, and answering them all at once is how a debate never finishes. One topic at a time, and divorce first because you started it.
You offered to apply my answer to my query. Fine, that already helps. You said Deut 24:4 is God's because Moses said so, so you accept a prophet's word about God as a witness. Then Moses' own statement that the Lord commanded him the statutes and judgments covers the whole speech, including the verses before 24:4. That's your own rule, and it's why your split between verse 4 and verses 1 to 3 still has no text behind it.
So finish the divorce debate. Where is the text that puts Deut 24:4 on God's side and verses 1 to 3 on Moses'? What do Exodus 21:10 to 11 and 1 Corinthians 7:15 do to your spiritual union, and can those spouses remarry? Why should an innocent divorced woman never remarry, and why is that better than 2:230? And why does a different ruling prove a different author when you accept it between Moses and Jesus? Answer those, and Mutah and retribution will each get their own post in turn.

TenQ:
I made a simple statement

Islam is a religion of Peace and Tolerance

but people find it hard to believe

And those that read the Quran themselves then revert to Islam are not of the people that find it hard to believe? We all mustn't think the same way and cannot equally be right or wrong in our convictions.

TenQ:
Sorry for your tantrums.
The case is decided: you could fight Jesus if you can!
Being unreasonably OBSTINATE doesn't help you. Argument from silence is no argument my dear!


Let me flip this on you using exactly the same rule you are trying to impose on me.


1. Allah gave you permission to do mutah in the Qur'an Qur’an 4:24
2. Mohammed claimed that Allah has forbidden it BUT not in the Qur'an

Sahih Muslim 1406 d
Sabra al-Juhani reported on the authority of his father that while he was with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) he said: O people, I had permitted you to contract temporary marriage with women, but Allah has forbidden it (now) until the Day of Resurrection. So he who has any (woman with this type of marriage contract) he should let her off, and do not take back anything you have given to them (as dower).

Can we trust that Allah truly canceled mutah from the words of Mohammed?

If it is YES,

then can we trust that Deu 24:4: is from God?

Deu 24:4:
"Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and you shall not cause the land to sin , which the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance."








And I noticed that all these was just to avoid answering the law of retribution according to Allah.

TenQ:
The Wisdom Of Allah's Law Of Retribution (A BAD copy Of the Law Of Moses)?

In the Bible at the time of Moses when the Law of Retribution was in Effect, the Law of an Eye for an Eye was applied as a means of enacting equity in justice for offences.
It is interesting to note that Jesus CANCELLED this Law of Retribution of Moses in Mat 5:38-42:

But as we a know, Mohammed COPIED everything that fancies him from the Jews, Christians, Folklores etc.

He made the mistake of Copying the Law of Retribution and Attributed it to Allah as Usual by putting it in the Qur'an.

Unfortunately, Mohammed or Allah misapplied it in a TERRIBLE format.

Qur'an 2:178
"O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered -
the free for the free,
the slave for the slave, and
the female for the female.
But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment."

Let us apply these laws.
1. If I as a Free Muslim man killed the slave of Ohyoudidnt or Expanse2020 then Allah require that I should present my slave for execution.

2. If I as a Free Muslim man killed the Female slave of Ohyoudindnt or Expanse2020, then Allah require that I should present my Female slave for execution.

3. If I, as a Free Muslim man, killed another Free Muslim, then, I am liable to be killed also (this is fairly representative of the Law of Moses in Retribution)

However, According to Tafsir Ibn Kathir Qur'an 2:178-179
He said that, all Muslim scholars agree that
The Muslim is not killed for the disbeliever (whom he kills).)



Questions :
1. What is the Equity if my innocent slave would be killed because I killed the slave of my neighbour?
2. Why is it that as a Muslim I can get away with murder if the person I killed is NOT a Muslim?
3. Why is equity in gender of execution important to Allah?
4. What is the Wisdom with respect to murder in Allah's Law of Retribution

Look at your last two posts. In the one you said the case is decided and called me obstinate. In the second you pasted the retribution post you'd already posted earlier, unchanged, as if my answer on 2:178 didn't exist. I answered it. You skipped the answer and repeated the question. That isn't someone who's winning, it's someone who won't read the reply.
If the case is decided, it shouldn't take you long to show it. You say my case is an argument from silence, but your claim that Moses acted without God rests on Matthew 19:8 not mentioning God, which is silence. I gave you Exodus 33:7 to 11, Exodus 34, Leviticus 1:1, Deut 5:31 and Matthew 15:4. You answered none of them.
And these are still open. What text puts Deut 24:4 on God's side and verses 1 to 3 on Moses', in one speech? What do Exodus 21:10 to 11 and 1 Corinthians 7:15 do to your spiritual union, and can those spouses remarry? Why should an innocent divorced woman never remarry, and why is that better than Qur'an 2:230? And why does a different ruling prove a different author when you accept it between Moses and Jesus?
A man sure of his ground answers four questions in four lines. If you're ashamed of where they lead, pasting the same post twice won't shelter you. Retribution may get its own thread from me once you've answered these, but I'm not letting you swap topics to avoid them.

TenQ:
Enough repeating your weeping over nothing. The Torah is NOT a DICTATION unlike the Qur'an. If it was a dictation, your argument may hold some water but sorry it isn't.


It is a ruling by man versus a ruling by God. It is clear as Night and Day.


If Mohammed gives you his Ruling and Allah (later through Mohammed) then give you his ruling, which one do you follow?

TenQ:
The Wisdom Of Allah's Law Of Retribution (A BAD copy Of the Law Of Moses)?

In the Bible at the time of Moses when the Law of Retribution was in Effect, the Law of an Eye for an Eye was applied as a means of enacting equity in justice for offences.
It is interesting to note that Jesus CANCELLED this Law of Retribution of Moses in Mat 5:38-42:

But as we a know, Mohammed COPIED everything that fancies him from the Jews, Christians, Folklores etc.

He made the mistake of Copying the Law of Retribution and Attributed it to Allah as Usual by putting it in the Qur'an.

Unfortunately, Mohammed or Allah misapplied it in a TERRIBLE format.

Qur'an 2:178
"O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered -
the free for the free,
the slave for the slave, and
the female for the female.
But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment."

Let us apply these laws.
1. If I as a Free Muslim man killed the slave of Ohyoudidnt or Expanse2020 then Allah require that I should present my slave for execution.

2. If I as a Free Muslim man killed the Female slave of Ohyoudindnt or Expanse2020, then Allah require that I should present my Female slave for execution.

3. If I, as a Free Muslim man, killed another Free Muslim, then, I am liable to be killed also (this is fairly representative of the Law of Moses in Retribution)

However, According to Tafsir Ibn Kathir Qur'an 2:178-179
He said that, all Muslim scholars agree that
The Muslim is not killed for the disbeliever (whom he kills).)



Questions :
1. What is the Equity if my innocent slave would be killed because I killed the slave of my neighbour?
2. Why is it that as a Muslim I can get away with murder if the person I killed is NOT a Muslim?
3. Why is equity in gender of execution important to Allah?
4. What is the Wisdom with respect to murder in Allah's Law of Retribution

I already mentioned the tablet. Are we meant to think Moses had no more contact with God after receiving it? Exodus 33:7 to 11 has him; Moses, speaking with the Lord face to face, Exodus 34 records further terms, and Leviticus 1:1 says the Lord spoke to him from the tent of meeting. Not every word dictated and Moses acted independently of God are two different claims. You've argued the first and assumed the second. Matthew 19:8 says he permitted divorce because of hard hearts, nothing about doing it apart from God. You called it man versus God as clear as night and day, yet you set Deut 24:4 from that same Torah against Quran 2:230 as God's abomination. I need you to squarely address this as you haven't thus far. Show me the text that puts verse 4 on God's side and verses 1 to 3 on Moses'.
Look at your last three posts. I asked about Deut 24, you gave me retribution, then a hypothetical about Muhammad pbuh and Allah, then Zayd and a rant about paradise. You still haven't said what Exodus 21:10 to 11 and 1 Corinthians 7:15 do to your spiritual union, why an innocent divorced woman should never remarry, or why a different ruling proves a different author when you accept it between Moses and Jesus.
On Quran 2:178 I'll say this much. It doesn't tell a man to hand over his own slave for execution, and female for female didn't limit executing a man for killing a woman. The Muslim and non-Muslim point is a real dispute, since Ibn Kathir reports the majority view and Abu Hanifa differing. That is criticism of a ruling, not proof of plagiarism or divine error. It doesn't replace the divorce questions.
Answer those first.

TenQ:
It seems you do not believe that Islam is both a religion of Peace and Tolerance!

Did you read what I wrote?

And I replied who? Why would I reply let's see the depth of your logic as presented

TenQ:
Islam is indeed a Religion of PEACE and TOLERANCE!




All of them will keep quiet now pretending that they didn't read this.




Rashduct4luv
Antichristian
Ohyoudidnt
Expanse2020
drlateef
NOETHNICITY
dofman

Provide me with independent information as this from once source appears biased and far from clear.

Expanse2020:
THE CHRISTIANS WOULD THINK EVERYONE IS MUMUUUU LIKE THEM ,🤣🤣🤣🤣

IMAGINE THE SITE THAT THIS GUY GO AND COPY IT....
NO RELEVANT SOURCE LIKE NEWS PAPER., TELEVISION AND RADIO STATION THAT BROADCAST THE NEWS..
THE NIGERIA COURT IN BORNO NO GET NAME 🤣🤣🤣🤣
THE JUDGE DIDNT GET A NAME

THE DOCUMENTS THE ARINDINNNN PRESENT THE NAME OF THE OFENDER IS DIFFERENT FEOM THE NAME OFFENDER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT

MAKE ALLAH NO REDUCE OUR THINKING FACULTY LIKE JE DOES TO THESE PEOPLE 🤣🤣🤣🤣

TENQ
O TI BO MO Ẹ LỌWỌ OO

Bro I am still observing this as the report comes from one source and no other so it's not well understood.
So far it only seems like a means to call back Trump and the US to do something his initial coming and withdrawing left unfinished. It smirks more political against the faith of the ruling pair seeking reelection.

TenQ:
You are just needlessly feigning dumbness.
1. The Torah is not a dictation from God
2. The Torah is a set of Chronicles and Sets of Different laws (Religious Laws, Civil laws, Commandments, Ritual laws etc)
3. Moses gave a civil law with respect to divorce for a reason; his people are heard hearted.
4. Jesus explained why Moses gave such laws and that it wasn't God's laws.
If you cannot understand this. too bad.


If Moses is the leader of Israel, does he have the power to make and give laws? Moses even went ahead to ask them to present a certificate of divorce to their estranged spouse. This is a civil law whether you admit it or not.

Moses is NOT like Mohammed you Muslims claim that anything from him is from Allah. Everything from Moses is NOT from God just like everything from David is NOT from God.

Unfortunately, there was no EXISTING explicitly stated law of God that Moses violated.

If you know of any. bring it out.



Divorce is not permitted in Christ as you cannot break a spiritual marriage. So. how can you claim to apply the same law to
1. A religion that allows divorce and remarriage to multiple persons and
2. A religion that forbid divorce and as such sees separated couples as spiritually connected in marriage.


You claiming that a Burden is real doesn't solve any problems.
The Burden is DISASTROUS at the least and highly UNJUST!

It only exposes the fact that Allah and his Messenger created a DUMB law against dutiful and faithful Muslim Wives who were unfortunate to marry some rash husbands.

How come Allah couldn't see the consequence of his command?




It is the same manner Allah made a Blunder because of his lack of understanding in the law of Retribution in your Qur'an while copying the law of Moses wrt retribution









The Question remain about the Wisdom of Allah and his Prophet

1. Tell me, what is the MORALITY, LOGIC and SENSE of this Law of Allah and his Prophet?

2. Why is the Faithful and Dutiful wife suffering for the rashness of her husband?

3. According to your best intellect, is this the BEST solution for this problem created by the Rash Muslim Husband against his Wife?

TenQ, you said Moses unilaterally gave the law and did not get a revelation for divorce. Civil tells you the class of a law, not where it came from. Deut 5:31 has God telling Moses to teach Israel His commandments, statutes and judgments. Exodus 21:1 introduces the judgments Moses set before them, and Jesus in Matthew 15:4 credits Exodus 21:17 to God. I'm not saying every word was dictated or handed down in the tablet. I'm saying you can't just assume civil law was Moses' own idea. Matthew 19:8 says he permitted divorce because of hard hearts, nothing about doing it apart from God.
Deut 24 now. Verse 4 says abomination before the LORD. Verses 1 to 3 are how she got to another man in the first place. If verse 4 is God and verses 1 to 3 are only Moses, show me the text that draws that line. Is Moses lying about the LORD there, or speaking for Him? If he's speaking for Him, why are 1 to 3 unauthorised?
And your spiritual union. Exodus 21:10 to 11 sets a wife free if her husband takes another wife and starves her of food, clothing or marital rights. 1 Corinthians 7:15 says a believer isn't bound when the unbeliever leaves. So what happens to the union there, and can they remarry?
On Quran 2:230, yes it's a real hardship if both want to reunite, and no, I haven't called it the best possible rule. The third divorce is final, that's the point. You picked the comparison with Deut 24:4, and you used my test, that an innocent person shouldn't pay for another's act. So why is your rule better when an innocent divorced woman can't remarry without adultery being charged?
Give me the verse for the retribution claim and the error you see, in its own post.
Finally, a different ruling doesn't prove a different author. You accept that between Moses and Jesus. And dumb isn't an argument for unjust.

TenQ:
Sorry,
It seems you didn't get it.

Moses did NOT get a revelation for DIVORCE: He unilaterally gave the law to the children of Israel because they are hard hearted.

Jesus, said it wasn't how God designed marriage from the beginning. Then Jesus stated the exact desire of God.

It seems you are not aware that the Torah is a mixture of
1. Chronicles
2. Civil Laws
3. Criminal Laws
4. Religious Laws
5. Spiritual Laws and Commandments etc.







So. AGAIN:
According to your best intellect, is this the BEST solution for this problem created by the Rash Muslim Husband against his Wife?







He cannot escape adultery because to God Marriage is BOTH a Physical and Spiritual Union.

If you dissolve the physical union, tell me by what power you want to dissolve the spiritual union made by God Himself especially when God doesn't want to separate the union.

Mat 19:6:
"Why they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."




The problem created by Allah and his Messenger is that the INNOCENT divorced Wife due to no fault of hers has to first marry someone else, exchange mutual orgasm with the person.

Jesus does NOT encourage DIVORCE in the first place.

Islam is a purely physical religion, so I understand why you wouldn't see marriage as spiritual union of two people.

The Rule of Jesus is that
1. Divorce is not acceptable except if a spouse cannot live with an adulterer
2. If you divorce your spouse, you have only done a physical separation but you cannot undo the spiritual union.
3. Anyone who thus married a divorced person is commit "Adultery" as they are not spiritually disconnected.

You say Moses gave the divorce law unilaterally and got no revelation for it?Matthew 19:8 says he permitted it because of hard hearts, which is not the same as inventing it apart from God, and in Matthew 15:4 Jesus calls a Mosaic command God's. Then you quote Moses saying the return is an abomination before the LORD and treat that as God's verdict. So answer plainly. Is Moses as per your Bible lying about God, or authorized to speak for Him? If he is lying, you have no divine verdict to set against Quran 2:230. If he is authorized, Deut 24 carries God's authority, including verse 2, where the divorced woman may go and become another man's wife, which your Matthew 5:32 reading calls adultery. The only other option is that Moses spoke for God in verse 4 and for himself in verses 1 to 3, and that needs a verse that draws the line.
You say no human can undo what God joined physically and in spirit, yet you allow an adultery exception. Does adultery dissolve the union or only permit separation? And you told us the man who marries a wife put away without adultery commits adultery, so on your rule a wife whose husband has left her, with no adultery on her side, can never lawfully marry again while he lives. Why is that morally superior to a rule that restricts one reunion? Simply make it make sense.
I have said the burden under Quran 2:230 is real where both want to reunite, and that scholars differ on a triple said in one sitting, with Ibn Taymiyya counting it as one. I apply one standard to both rules. You condemn the hardship in mine and treat yours as beyond question. And you accept a changed ruling between Moses and Jesus, so what independent argument shows a changed ruling in Islam means a different author?

TenQ:
Se why I said you argue for arguments sake.
1. Jesus said: Moses permitted the children of Israel to divorce their wives because they were hard hearted.
2. Jesus returned us BACK to the foundation of the WILL of God

Doesn't Islam teach progressive Revelation?

Both cannot stand!
The Command of Jesus is superior as YHWH!


Irrespective of the method by which the final divorce is done, the case isn't about the man: it is about the INNOCENT Wife!
It is understandable if the Rash husband faces some form of punishment BUT not the Innocent Wife

Unfortunatly, she loves her husband and would rather not divorce him
HOWEVER,
It was the Husband who divorced her!

And the foolish husband realised that he made a BIG mistake that cannot be undone!

So, she suffers for no ERROR from her side.
She suffers for LOVING her husband!

According to your best intellect, is this the BEST solution for this problem?



Under the rule of Christ,
1. Divorce is NOT permitted EXCEPT in the case of Adultery either by the husband or by the wife(if the offended cannot bear with it)
2. Men are not exclusively given the right to pronounce divorce on their wives
Sorry:
We are not in the same category





AGAIN:
According to your best intellect, is this the BEST solution for this problem created by the Rash Muslim Husband against his Wife?

You actually didn't get it? You say Jesus overrides what Moses permitted, yet you accept both within one biblical tradition. Islam likewise teaches that revelation can carry different rulings at different times. So a difference in rulings does not by itself prove a different divine source, and you need an independent argument that the Qur'an's ruling does. Saying Jesus is YHWH assumes the theology Muslims dispute.
On Deuteronomy, I never said 24:2 commands divorce. I asked how its recognition that a divorced woman may become another man's wife fits with Matthew 5:32. If you think they are compatible, explain how. Declaring that they cannot both stand is no more sufficient than declaring that they can.
On the woman, I have said the burden is real where both want to reunite. It is not necessarily the best imaginable rule. The argument is that it limits repeated divorce and keeps a husband from treating divorce and return as costless. In your rash case, scholars like Ibn Taymiyya count a triple said in one sitting as one. Women also have routes to dissolution, khulʿ and judicial divorce, though the rules vary by school and jurisdiction.
Now apply your standard to Matthew 5:32. If a woman is divorced without adultery, can the man who marries her avoid the charge of adultery? If not, why is that better than a rule that restricts reunion with one former husband and permits marriage to another? You cannot condemn Islam's rule while exempting your own from the same scrutiny.

TenQ:
A Muslim is prone to argue for argument sake.

Moses said:
Deut 24:4:
"Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and you shall not cause the land to sin, which the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance."

Moses said:
1. It is an ABOMINATION to God
2. It is a SIN



Secondly, I challenge you to show me WHERE you claimed "Your Matthew 5:32 also calls the marriage 24:2 allows adultery, "

Why must you tell lies to advance your case?



Please dont deviate from my question: they are simple enough.



All these to escape answering my Questions!?
The Question remain about the Wisdom of Allah and his Prophet

1. Tell me, what is the MORALITY, LOGIC and SENSE of this Law of Allah and his Prophet?

2. Why is the Faithful and Dutiful wife suffering for the rashness of her husband?

Accusing me of arguing for argument's sake is not an argument.
On your quote, yes, Moses said it, and the same Moses wrote 24:2, where a divorced woman may go and become another man's wife. You credit one verse to God and the other to Moses, and still haven't shown the verse that sorts them. On my wording, you asked where I claimed it. It was my comparison, not a quote, so here it is as a question. Matthew 5:32, which you posted, says whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery, while Deut 24:2 says she may become another man's wife. How do both stand? Show how you draw that line, and do not just assert it.
Now your two questions, straight. The logic is that 2:229 caps revocable divorce at two, so the third is final and he cannot use divorce as a toy. The morality is that his loss is the right to retake her at will, and in your rash case Ibn Taymiyya counts a triple in one sitting as one. As for why she suffers, she does not unless both want the reunion, and there I said the burden is real. Nobody forces her to marry, and she is free to marry anyone after her waiting period. Under your rule she is barred from every marriage, while 2:230 restricts only one. Is that answer enough? You can say no, but you can't say I didn't give it.

TenQ:
Somehow instead of
Jesus said MOSES permitted divorce!

WHAT you have READ is
Jesus said GOD permitted divorce!


Is MOSES and GOD synonymous?
It just shows how BIASED and OBSTINATE you made yourself


No sir.
Jesus went before the TIME of Moses to show WHAT GOD DESIGNED FOR MARRIAGE.

Mat 19:8:
"He said to them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so."

Jesus said:
"FROM THE BEGINNING IT WAS NOT SO"

Was Moses in the Beginning?

I can understand that this is exactly how you read the Qur'an. You usually choose to leave what Allah says for what you want Allah to say.
SMH!




Unfortunately, Moses stated that this oddity of Remarrying a woman who had been passed around by the old husband is an ABOMINATION to God and NOT an Abomination to Moses.

Deu 24:4:
"Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and you shall not cause the land to sin, which the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance."

Moses said:
1. It is an ABOMINATION to God
2. It is a SIN


So, the second part of Mose's is God's!

Mohammed is committing an ABOMINABLE and a SIN




Using your law of Morality, you will see that using the rule of Allah and your rule of morality you stated, The Rashly Divorced Woman in Islam is UNJUSTLY Treated.

You said:
a rule is unjust when it restricts freedom, dignity or a lawful future because of another person's act.

1. This woman was Divorced against her will and she cannot do anything about it UNLESS she married someone else (also against her will)
2. This dutiful and faithful wife has to have an orgasm for someone other than the husband she truly want as her husband.
3. Her freedom, dignity and future is compromised because of the LAW of Allah and his Prophet.

Complete Injustice according to the best of Allah and Mohammed's ruling





1. Sorry, it is NOT my rule, it was JESUS's Rule
2. We have no such rules of divorce in Christianity

Mat 5:32:
"But I say to you, That whoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery: and whoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery."

Mat 19:9:
"And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her which is put away does commit adultery."

Prophet Malachi corroborated it

Malachi 2:16:
"“For I hate divorce!” says the LORD, the God of Israel. “To divorce your wife is to overwhelm her with cruelty, ” says the LORD of Heaven’s Armies. “So guard your heart; do not be unfaithful to your wife.”"

The God of Israel hates divorce BIT Allah and his Messenger are promoting SIN and ABOMINATIONS with respect of tasting the juice of multiple husbands.








All these to escape answering my Questions!?
The Question remain about the Wisdom of Allah and his Prophet
1. Tell me, what is the MORALITY, LOGIC and SENSE of this Law of Allah and his Prophet?

2. Why is the Faithful and Dutiful wife suffering for the rashness of her husband?

You credit the divorce law to Moses, not God, then prove 24:4 is God's because it says abomination before the LORD. But your own post says Moses stated it. That phrase is Moses' claim about God, made in the same passage as the permission you call only his. Either Moses' statements about God are reliable, and then 24:2 carries the same standing, or they aren't, and you have no divine verdict to set against 2:230. Your Matthew 5:32 also calls the marriage 24:2 allows adultery, so you are sorting verses by your reading of Jesus, not by anything the text says. A few things are still open from earlier, whenever you get to them: whether the wife put away without fornication may lawfully remarry under the verses you posted, the text saying consummation and not orgasm, and which hadith you consider weak. I'm happy to take them in whatever order suits you.