₦airaland Forum

Boomark:
That is exactly what their falsehood make it look like. They don't know their left or right. Have you seen how they all dodged the question I asked them concerning what . To chose either A or B.

See the question here

https://www.nairaland.com/8473507/one-god-father-trinity-false/12#136175226

Gabrielshow24 even said that what Jesus said is a false dichotomy. They insult and reject Christ with their doctrine.

https://www.nairaland.com/8473507/one-god-father-trinity-false/11#136168245

I will make an announcement on Sunday. Their high BP will increase because I'm good to permanently slay their false trinity doctrine. I will invite you.

Quite right. For some reason my further responses aren't allowed with a following ban. I see the real truth is too much for them to bare.

Steep:
It is. Mathew 28:18 says baptizing is in the name of the father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit. This is Trinity.
Paul ended some of his epistle by saying the grace of Jesus christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit. Jesus referred to the holy Spirit as someone who will dwell in his disciples forever. It is allover the Christian Bible.

Matthew 28:18–19 is frequently cited to back the concept of the Trinity, but it actually illustrates Jesus receiving authority from God, rather than being equal to Him. Verse 18 suggests a hierarchy—“All power is given unto me…” This clearly shows that Jesus is granted authority, rather than having it inherently. This challenges the notion that he is co-equal and co-eternal with God.

While verse 19 mentions the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it doesn’t claim they are one or equal. In fact, the apostles in Acts never quote Matthew 28:19 when baptizing; they consistently do so in the name of Jesus alone, not using three names (see Acts 2:38, 8:16, 19:5).

The doctrine of the Trinity emerged centuries later. Early Christians, like Eusebius, referenced this verse without the Trinitarian formula, hinting at possible later modifications.

Kindly verify that the Christian historian Edmund Schlink wrote that the baptismal command in its Matthew 28:19 form cannot be traced back to the historical Jesus with certainty."

Theologian F. C. Conybeare concluded that the Trinitarian formula was inserted into Matthew 28:19 to align with later theological developments.

Steep:
The Christian God is not same as Allah. In Christianity one God means one essence, but three in personhood but in Islam Allah is singular both in his essence and in his personhood.

Then this Christian God is not in perfect agreement with all the verses of the Christian book called Bible

Steep:
no hierarchy within the trinity instead there is order operation rather than inequality of nature.
Jesus, The father and The holy Spirit are one. But have different order of operation.
For example, all things came from the Father through the Son and by the Spirit.
The Father is the head of Christ because the father ordained Jesus christ.

The main concern here isn't just about the order of operations; it's really about how we understand the different roles within the Divine. This idea seems to clash with the strict belief in one God. Even if the Trinity suggests that there's equality in essence but different roles, splitting up identity or function within God is not but introducing partners alongside Allah.

Gabrielshow24:
I am a gentleman, so I ask before I release a barrage of hadiths that support my case!

Once more you have a skewed perception of trinity and I redirected you to check my previous responses that deal with it but for the sake of the little ones, I will define it. In definition, Trinity concludes that they are three divine members of the Godhead that encapsulates the concept called "God"!

The Father, The Son and the Spirit. In biblical stance it's impossible to posit that the Father can do something that his Spirit can't! Likewise the Son, where he expressly stated that "whatever he sees his Father do, that's what he does"! —Thus, by capability the same fulfills upon him even without considering other verses that buttress different criteria such as " fullness of God dwells in him", " first and the last" etc

Now, I don't really care whether it's by Allah's leave; my emphasis is on the doer of the action! 🤨Is it Isa creating or Allah? If I say, By Tinubu's leave I went to Mecca, who exactly went to Mecca? Everything you hoped to object with revolves around "authority"! It doesn't negate the Essence! Thus, the concept of co-creator is invariably imputed upon Isa by Allah!

Thank you for explaining.

However;


The concept of God being three distinct persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (you agree they exist/existed separately, Jesus on earth, the descending or sent holy spirit and God the father) contradicts the clear message from all the prophets that God is fundamentally one and indivisible.

When Jesus states, I can do nothing by myself (John 5:30), it highlights his dependence, which is not a characteristic of God.

Furthermore, when Jesus says, The Father is greater than I (John 14:28), it indicates a hierarchy rather than equality. God isn't split into greater and lesser beings.

Jesus also mentioned that he doesn't know the Hour, only the Father does (Mark 13:32), and a being without knowledge cannot be considered God.

The Holy Spirit, too, doesn’t speak on his own but only shares what he hears (John 16:13), suggesting he operates under authority, not as a co-equal with God.

If the Son only acts based on what he sees the Father doing (John 5:19), it implies that the Son is following rather than being equal he doesn't possess an independent divine will.

Throughout the Old Testament, no prophet ever preached that God is three in one; they all emphasized pure, indivisible monotheism.

Even Jesus affirmed the Jewish belief in one God. The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29), not three.

If the Father, Son, and Spirit were genuinely co-equal, none would be subordinate to another in knowledge, will, or action but the Bible tries to present a different picture.


Then consider a strictly obedient military officer ordered to kill someone by a superior. In obedience he fired and killed but not by his will but command.

Let's look at this a little closer. What did Isa a s mould the bird with? Did he freshly create that or it was already there created by Allah?

Isa a.s (Jesus) molded clay which was something already created and the bird only came to life by Allah’s leave, meaning the act of creating life was not from Isa himself, but from the One who owns life and grants permission for miracles. Allah alone.

By Tinubu’s leave, someone travelled to Mecca. No one would say Tinubu did the traveling. You went, but you couldn’t have done it without Tinubu’s authority. In the end will Tinubu have reward for enabling you to go to Mecca? Yes without diminishing your reward.

Steep:
why don't you continue the verse he also said there is one LORD by whom are all things, you just pick a from a verse what you think aligns with your belief, not minding the other pars and verses goes against your belief.
You have jumped into another topic.

So are you saying one verse says this and the other the opposite?

You seem to refer perhaps among others 1 Cor. 8:6.

The verse makes a clear distinction between the Father and Jesus: the Father is referred to as “God,” while Jesus is called “Lord.” This shows that the Father is the source of creation, and Jesus serves as the means through which it happens. This isn’t about equality; it’s about hierarchy. Even Paul acknowledges that God is the head of Christ.

Corinthians 11:3:
The head of Christ is God.

Philippians 2:9:
God exalted him [Jesus]…

Only someone less than God can be exalted by God.

1 Timothy 2:5:
There is one God, and one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus ( by Christian belief)

Gabrielshow24:
It's in the hadith..with varying accounts of his expressions when he received the "wahy"👌. If you like proof, let me know. I base my speech on facts not hearsay! I will post all the necessary hadiths related to these expressions or episodes 👀!

The one that has real facts needs no special invitation to present.

Gabrielshow24:
In what way did you infer that I said Jesus gave the spirit to himself! In the Quran, Allah refers to himself as the "first and the last". In the bible, Jesus refers to himself as the "first and the last".
By Quranic standards, does Jesus not have the Essence of Allah? —Even though I don't want to be totally blunt by using direct equation since I have taken into view the standard Islamic narratives 🤧!

Let also ask you, By your prophet's definition or standard of relegation of other false gods, he posited that because they do not have the power to create they are false but look at such a one in Isa, that made birds🤨, supposedly didn't die and yet exhibited features and attributes that are imposed on God alone!

You have a skewed perception of trinity, you can look at my responses to educate yourself. You acknowledge that Elijah and Elisha have portions of God's spirit and you posit that having greater abundance doesn't warrant the Divine attribute—This is wrong, the fullness of God as much as you want to spin it as a metaphor rears its head as Jesus embodying the Full divine Essence of God!

You can have part of something doesn't necessarily translate to having the full. Elijah and Elisha in their own rights did things that were remarkable based on the portion of the spirit upon them! You can ascribe these things as "Divine" but the emphasis is that both didn't have the fullness of God! They had in portions and worked according to the portion given to them!

Please read and understand your scripture.
Matt. 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

The spirit was decending from whom unto Jesus? Then if it was the full spirit what about the part of the spirit that resides in other human creations of God.

Do you have the creating a bird narrative in your Bible?

Why do you read the verse in the Quran incompletely?
...I create for you out of clay the shape of a bird, then I blow into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s permission..."
(Surah Āli ʿImrān 3:49)

By Allah's permission shows the one who actually has the power to create.

You say my perception of trinity is skewed yet you fail to appropriately define it to correct me? Why?

Steep:
what is how? That is what the word theotes mean.

If Paul truly believed that Jesus was God, he wouldn't refer to God as the head of Christ or restrict God to just the Father.

The head of Christ is God.

In simple terms, God holds authority over Christ.

There is one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in all.

Gabrielshow24:
Yet when it soothes the Quranic writers they give him two hands🤨. Islam doesn't have an handle of the concept of omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God!

You limited your Allah by saying he needs a consort to make a son when he obviously didn't need one when he made Adam and Jesus—You claim he said "Be!" but yet it seems so hard for Allah to say "Be!" again, in order for him to make a son🤨.

By the way, Adam was made by clay according to some Quranic verse which contradicts the Islamic reply that "Jesus is like Adam, a word from Allah!"

Another misunderstood probably intentional on your part. The Quran affirms Allah has hands as He described but not like anything in creation.
There is nothing like unto Him” (Qur’an 42:11)

It is a metaphorical statement denoting power and favour.

Where is Allah limited in needing a consort when his command is sufficient to do all he does?

Adam's body was made of clay or soul and this literally passes to all mankind that have bodies which degenerate back to clay.

Indeed, We created man from clay..."
Surah Al-Mu’minūn (23:12)

Sincerely ask yourself which is easier? Creation with no parent or with one parent?

You don't understand that without the command Adam will not have been in that bodily form.

And We certainly created you, then We gave you form; then We said to the angels, 'Prostrate to Adam.... (Quran 7:11)

Gabrielshow24:
The same spirit of God was in different portions in the case of Elijah and Elisha! Thus they were presumably filled with the spirit but not the Fullness of God! It's only Christ that the phrase "fullness of God" was used!

Yes, the fullness of God comes with the full package, the nature along with the fruit! 👌

Paul didn't con-vulse while receiving messages but yet you believe in the visions of such a one👀! Incase you do not understand, kindly look up the biblical classification of such a spirit!

Stephen, Elijah, Elisha, and others were empowered by the Spirit of God to fulfill their missions.

Jesus, too, was filled with the Spirit of God, as we see in Luke 4:1: “Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan…”

The Bible doesn’t say that Jesus gave the Spirit to himself; rather, it was bestowed upon him by God.

Prophets like Elijah and Elisha received portions of God’s Spirit as gifts. Similarly, the Bible tells us that Jesus was also given the Spirit by God. The term "fullness of God" serves as a metaphor for intimacy, support, and divine approval not as evidence of divinity.

If having a portion of the Spirit doesn’t make Elijah or Elisha divine, then having the Spirit in greater abundance doesn’t automatically make Jesus God either.

Let’s not forget Matthew 3:16 – “...he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him.”

If Jesus already possessed divine fullness, why would he need to receive the Spirit?

Seems you enjoy switching off and on his supreme deitiness

The distinction between portions and fullness is functional, not ontological.

Gabrielshow24:
The same spirit of God was in different portions in the case of Elijah and Elisha! Thus they were presumably filled with the spirit but not the Fullness of God! It's only Christ that the phrase "fullness of God" was used!

Yes, the fullness of God comes with the full package, the nature along with the fruit! 👌

Paul didn't con-vulse while receiving messages but yet you believe in the visions of such a one👀! Incase you do not understand, kindly look up the biblical classification of such a spirit!

Must you convulse in a trance? You are leaning on a fabrication you tell yourselves and have no proof since it is untrue.

Steep:
Actually it implies Jesus is fully God.
The word interpreted as "Godhead" is theotes in Greek and it means the state of being God.
Paul was saying that Jesus is fully God.

How exactly?

Boomark:
Like

Allah is God or Allah is god.

😄 Allah is God and there is no god other than Allah.

Allah, the one, supreme worthy of all worship. The sole worthy of worship

Boomark:
When you write God or god for Allah?

the use of the term is solely for mutually understood comprehension.

I may not understand you well though

Gabrielshow24:
There's no issue with our God but there is a big issue if it's from your Allah! You know the reason why but if you want me to spell it out for you! You do not associate anthropomorphic features to Allah!

Simply because the majesty of Allah is far beyond that and there's nothing likened or comparable unto him. He is above everything. Creates and sustains all other things.

Gabrielshow24:
There's no issue with our God but there is a big issue if it's from your Allah! You know the reason why but if you want me to spell it out for you! You do not associate anthropomorphic features to Allah!

Definitely you are not fair in your dealings then. No bother.

Gabrielshow24:
I took boomark in high intellectual esteem! I was wrong. He is no different to Max!

Once more, thanks for the input. I will consider that when next I converse! Perhaps, You have had time to use your own words and kindly tell us how "Allah wonders" and "Mohammed wonders" are the same🤨!—Given the unprecedented truthfulness at play in you!🧐

You should ask yourself the sense in continuing discussions with someone or people you have concluded only lie.

In any case you are free to have your decisions and preconvictions. May it lead you right through all eternity.

Gabrielshow24:
Filling something doesn't necessarily translate as the fullness of God!

As you are aware everyone has his or her portion of the spirit! The portion appointed of Jesus is the fullness of the deity not in folds!

To answer your supposed refuttal, Paul saw Jesus in a trance after his crucifixion and had first hand contact with his disciples unlike someone we know👀

Simple wisdom dictates that I can fill my cup with water doesn't mean it's the same as someone having the endless oceans within his cup! —There are two completely different things. Also that's false equivocation because you are imputing the fullness of God upon them because of the existence of the word "filled"!

Filled up with the spirit of God isn't the fullness of God?

Correct me thoroughly that to be filled with the fullness of God doesn't mean to experience the totality of God's nature, power, and love in your person?

You say trance about Paul? Are all things seen in that state real?

Gabrielshow24:
I took boomark in high intellectual esteem! I was wrong. He is no different to Max!

Once more, thanks for the input. I will consider that when next I converse! Perhaps, You have had time to use your own words and kindly tell us how "Allah wonders" and "Mohammed wonders" are the same🤨!—Given the unprecedented truthfulness at play in you!🧐

Do you have issues with God using or expressing human emotions in God regretted; Genesis 6:6, God walked in the garden; (Genesis 3: and God was grieved?

Was it Jesus or God or both that was amazed in Mark 6:6?

Gabrielshow24:
He encountered Jesus. Also, the same can't be said of Mohammed.

Remind me, didn't the Quran also affirm Paul as a Muslim? 🤨

It's not an exaggeration because studying scripture in depth allows one to make such inference! "The son of Man" , "the Lord saying unto my Lord", "The son to be kissed", " Jesus calling himself first and the last" to name a few!

In the presence of who? Before or after the crucifixion?

Then you make mention of fullness not used with others. What will you say of Bezalel; I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding Exo 31:3,
Stephen; I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding Acts 3:8 and Moses; I will take of the Spirit which is upon you and put it upon them...” Num 11:17?

The fullness of God wasn't in them?