₦airaland Forum

In fact I say this with all emphasis that the 40 million Igbo would likely vote for a Jonathan if he plays his cards well, far more than the Yoruba could ever vote for him.

If the Igbo decide to be "neutral" and field their own candidate through APGA, Jonathan loses that block vote (even though the Igbo candidate won't win),. He would then rely on a split south south vote (yes south south would be split ), and an unreliable Yoruba vote, against a united north. Guess who wins then?

debosky:
Erm. . . who did the SW vote for in the 2007 elections?

I think you need to revisit your history books.

The AC is under the control of SW elements today. If there is a Tinubu or Fashola on their ticket, guess who the Yoruba would vote for? I know it won't be the PDP candidate.

OAM4J:
i laugh in Guadeloupe

so you think it is easier for you to get the support of the North than to get the support of SW.

sometimes I wonder if some of you in SE have learned anything at all about Nigeria Politics, the way some of you reason

A resounding YES! 
Has the SW ever voted for anyone who is not Yoruba? NO!  That is our history, learn from it or pay for it.

SS seems to know better than you. Trust me SS with GJ, if play the card well will get the presidency in 2011 with or without SE - Fact.

We shall see about that. You think we don't want the presidency too. Keep dreaming. 

The north know who is the most formidable contender in the south.  No need convincing you about that.

gogo123:
nna lea anya, please don't be so upset with the man, lets cooler heads reign, the man might not be entirely wrong .
are you sure that goodluck that will do us right, i think the only way we igbos can get out of this terrible mess is by wining this presidential post and if it is not turn by turn, it will be a lot difficult, the south westerners simply want the free oil money from the south south, if goodluck stays for 8yrs, then a Northerner out of anger will permanently  keep it, where will we be then.
me think that some of them that are against zoning are essentially trying to deprive we the igbos of our turn, when ever the sw people suddenly starts being nationalistic , i look around  proper, there must be  a catch some where

You hit the nail on the head. That is why I have maintained that if ever we support Jonathan for next year, he must pledge to do for us all things we would have done for ourselves on the seat. He would effectively be serving the EASTERN interest (Anambra, Enugu, Bayelsa, Imo, Rivers, Cross rivers, Akwa ibom, Ebonyi, Abia and may be Delta).
The East is a socio-political and economic block.

If he does that, we can (together) go to the north to negotiate acquiescence and support. They are the most politically matured part of Nigeria and so would understand, especially since it would be a united Eastern demand.
Leadership on the part of Jonathan is all it would take, and he can get 8 years more in office.

Trusting the South West for votes would be his biggest mistake.

If he comes with that south south BS, we would dump him for a northerner. Simple.  

Awolowo as a "founding father" is almost an aberration because the man never set out to create one country called Nigeria. To Awolowo, Nigeria is a product of circumstance instead of design. He had openly described Nigeria as a mere geographical expression.
And when the opportunity came for him to negotiate power at the center with his contemporaries (Zik and Bello), he sent representatives to both parties simultaneously -unbeknown to neither of course. What type of man would do that?
When he was released from jail in Calabar in the Eastern Nigeria, he went ahead to make promises only for him to do the opposite in a matter of months.
Is there anything like gentleman's honor in Awolowo's playbook? 

He was a founding father alright. We are still trying to kill the rattle snake he left behind. 

@Azuka O.

What you are dealing with here is a product of Awoism per excellence. I don't know why it is hard for some of you Igbo guys to see Nigeria for what it is.

The guy is a dictatorial slowpoke with a Hobbesian "state of nature" mindset.
What you are trying to do is tantamount to negotiating a gentle man's agreement with a rattle snake you found at your doorstep.

Well, good luck with that!
You would be well advised to heed your own advice by allowing Babapupa and his alter-ego Akigbemaru to be what their patron saint Awo programmed them to be.

006:
. . . but how could he use C as a pawn when the position he’ll get in the arrangement is completely powerless? In how many companies could you control the MD? Even if you had success sometimes, the whole achievement could be reversed overnight if the MD suspects you are using him because he has all the powers.
So how 

The most thoughtless part of Zik's action was that he completely forgot about the role of the British in the whole equation. He forgot that the British only reluctantly conceded the independence. Zik was desperate to secure the independence for Nigeria, but he forgot that playing second fiddle to Ahmadu Bello was tantamount to handing back the independence to Britain through the back door.

To develop your analogy further, let us assume there is a fourth party D who was covetous of the new company ab initio, and wanted some controlling shares, but was turned down by A and[b] B[/b]. He then decided to wait, and instead signed a surreptitious agreement with C which effectively allows him to use C as puppet in order to access the company shares through C's executive fiats.

Now, that is being excessively short sighted for a man of famed great foresight.

006:
Here is why I said Zik was the greatest fool of all time. Let me use an analogy.

3 friends, A, B and C founded a company. A was seen as the overall frontman of the 3 by many and was well read. The rule says that only 2 of the 3 men will be in the management board, one being Managing Director, MD, and the other Image Officer, IO, that is completely powerless and does the MD’s biddings; and the 3rd sidelined (can only manage his share of the partnership). A doesn’t trust B who is also educated but A has 2 options;
(1) Be the MD and B the IO; or
(2) Be the IO and C’s boy, who is far less qualified or barely educated and relatively unknown, the MD.

It is widely believed that A has the overall interest of the company he helped founded at heart and is supposed to do his BEST to help steer the newly founded company to greater heights. After much negotiation, A decided that the best option was to make the barely educated man, C’s boy, the MD that has the power to call the shots as well as runs the company. He then opted for IO position.

My question is how do we rationalize that decision? Is it wisdom or utter foolishness?

The best option for any rational man and one that truly has the interest of the company at heart, being a new company, was to be the MD and the man he doesn’t trust the IO. With his position as the MD, he could control whatever he fears B might do while at the same time, tries to fulfil the vision he had that made him work so hard to found the company.

Brilliant analogy.

henry101:
@ Onlytruth
I tot Nnamdi made sure the Igbo held on well @ the central govt. during his time as .
He made sure they were heads of federal govt. agencies.
I think Zik was concerned about the personal development of the Igboman while Michael Okpara was all about the infrastructural development of the eastern region.
Zik cant be a and a premier of the east same time.
I need some clarifications on his role @ the center from U.

Zik was the Premier of the East before October 1959. He later joined the Ahmadu Bello -led NPC to form the government at the center at independence in 1960. Michael Iheonukara Okpara became Eastern Nigerian Premier from October 1959 to January 1966. Zik was the GC and went ahead to become the first president when Nigeria became a republic in 1963.

Andre Uweh:
@ONLYTRUTH: regarding western Cameroun, why do we want to keep them in Eastern Nigeria when they do not want to. When Fredrick Lugard almagated the north and southern Nigeria,the Camerounians were not there. If not for the German loss of WW1, they would not have been in Nigeria to start with.
They are now where they have always belonged to i.e The Camerouns.

But I asked earlier, how did Northern Cameroon join Nigeria then?
I posted an article in which a Cameroonian basically lamented a missed opportunity to stay in Nigeria (after 45 years of the plebiscite). I know the Cameroonians made their choice at the time, I only feel that if Endeley for instance was to be the Prime Minister of Eastern Nigeria, instead of Zik, it could have been difficult for his people to vote to join Cameroon. They felt marginalized, and a more astute NCNC move could have saved the day.

EzeUche has already pointed out to you that the Southern Cameroonians has more in common with Eastern Nigeria than Cameroon, hence their current predicament in Cameroon.

keeeem:
@Onlytruth

These men did great things in their time. You see in life we all make mistakes probably errors of judgement which is excusable. Those errors of judgement are based strictly upon the limitations of the time. Ask your Dad and Mum, there were certain things they missed and when they look back they wished will av been done to better the present situation they find themselves. That is life my friend. Perfection lies with God. Let us understand that aspect of life we do not have control over. In a private discussion with an elderly man when I was in the university he said one thing and I will quote him here ' All our founding fathers achieved what they set out to achieve the other thing they tried to achieve God never allowed it. Awo set out to give his people the best in terms of infrastructure and he did. Zik set out to be the greatest bride he did. Ahmadu Bello set out to be in control of govt and that he achieved'

That is by the wayside, let us watch those things we say in public forums like this and the way we also put things. In their own times, they were masters in their right. Let us try to post educative things that the younger generation would learn from not using our own personal views to distort history. Education is supposed to better the society. Let us use the education we have to better our society.

We are backward because we as individuals are more developed than our country. We do not have any other country other than this. God bless us all. Amin

Your comments are honest, but how does the bolded sound to you?
They set out to achieve what they achieved, "but God never allowed them to achieve the rest".
Does that make sense to you? A man sets out to achieve his aim, and when he does, that ends the story, isn't that so?

Yes, they achieved what they planned to achieve, which is a mediocre state, which is the point of this criticism.
We are only criticizing them because they've been unfairly lionized in light of the way Nigeria turned out.

How do you lionize someone who founded a country still grappling with some of the most basic instruments of nationhood 50 years after the founding?

So the point is that we are unfairly lionizing them. If not so, show me electricity in a 50 year old country.

chakula:
ARGENTINA PLAYERS

MESSI – 47 GOALS

MILITO – 30 GOALS

TEVEZ – 29 GOALS

HIGUAIN – 27 GOALS

KUN AGUERO – 20 GOALS

ANGELO di MARIA- 18 GOALS

TOTAL = 171. GOALS THIS SEASON



NIGERIAN PLAYERS

OBAFEMI MARTINS - 5 GOALS

OBASI OGBUKE - 4 GOALS

YAKUBU AIYEGBENI - 3 GOALS

KALU UCHE - 3 GOALS

OBINNA NSOFOR - 1. GOAL

IK UCHE - 0 GOALS

TOTAL = 16 GOALS THIS SEASON.



We don die!

lol!

Remii:
Sometimes I wonder about the thought process of some Nairalanders, these leaders deserve commendation and not insults, most of them were at the ages of NLanders with very limited exposures yet they did what they did. [b]Everything was going good before the military coup of 1966 [/b]and that was the beginning of the end. The west in particular had development plans for every 5yrs up to the 1st 25yrs after Independence. When Awolowo got  to federal with Gowon he developed same plan for Nigeria, but around 1970, after the war he observed the military govt no longer keen on the plan anymore. that was the main reason he gave for pulling out of the govt.

Did you say everything was going good before 1966?

The AG (Action Group), Awolowo's party started the trouble in May 1962, far before the January 1966 coup.

From 1962 to 1965, western Nigeria knew no real peace until the coup of January 1966.

tkb417:
God bless you

The clueless men did wonders for Nigeria when they were their ages!!

ask these internet warriors/legends to tell us what they have done for their Local govts

nothing and yet, they know who was cluesless and useless

na wa

At my age, I am doing more than they ever did. You may not believe it but I am.  A clueless nation is destined for failure even in a  million years. That is why we have nothing to celebrate after almost 50 years of independence.

As for what our generation can do, have you ever imagined climbing out of a bottomless pit?

All your efforts might seem in vain because frankly you have an uphill task.

These so called founding fathers failed the most basic test of leadership, which is to lead.
At least they were tribalist and invidious (Obafemi Awolowo), megalomaniacs and basking in hubris (Azikiwe), and ultra retrogressive (Ahmadu Bello).

sjeezy8:
lol I have to make atleast ONE post on this thread.

@poster if Obafemi Awolowo, Nnamdi Azikwe, And Ahmadu Bello, are All Clueless Founding Fathers what is ojukwu? What did he ever achieve? He didnt do shiot as the head of the east and he even failed at making a biafra a country.

So I guess that makes Ojukwu a failure- If biafra was a country today one could atleast give him credit- but its not he is a failure.

So Ojukwu is now a founding father of Nigeria? Are you that afraid of Ojukwu that you can't even think logically anymore?

Na wa for you o!

Andre Uweh:
The Western Cameroun was not originally a part of Nigeria. The league of nations handed over the territory to the British imperial govt to be administered through Nigeria. It was not in the original plan to keep W. Cameroun under Nigeria. They had a right to reunite with their other half. As a result, a plebiscite was organised and they chose to opt out of Nigeria. Zik nor Nigeria had no right to hold them back. So count Azikiwe out.
Zik as a nationalist, had only one intention-to win power from colonial masters for Nigeria. Was that achieved or not?.

Of course I know that Southern Cameroon was reuniting with the French part, but they could have voted to join Nigeria. Why did the Northern part of Cameroon vote to join Nigeria (todays Adamawa and Taraba states)?
Zik could have borrowed a leaf from the north to do the same thing in order to keep southern Cameroun.

I'm not saying that the Southern Cameroonians were innocent victims or non-participatory bystanders. Far from it.
I just think that an Ahmadu Bello would not have lost Southern Cameroon (I'd give him that respect ).

Zik and NCNC were more interested in forming the government at the center, and they lost focus on the Eastern front.

The product was a diminished Eastern Nigeria, and subsequent further balkanization of the East. That is what I call building a house upside down.
A powerful Eastern Nigeria would have developed more clout to negotiate for power at the center.

From the article above, it is evident that a little more commitment on the side of the NCNC leadership (basically in assisting Endeley) could have swayed this plebiscite to Nigeria's advantage.

Securing this one alone could have had a profound effect on the way Nigeria turned out in later part of the 60s.

[size=14pt]The Cameroons Unification Revisited (1): On the Road to the Plebiscite of February 11, 1961[/size]



By Dibussi Tande

(Originally posted on the Camnet Internet forum on 11 February 1995)

Southerncameroonsmap It's [45] years to the day since the British Southern Cameroons voted, in a United Nations-sponsored plebiscite, to unify with the French Cameroons (then known as La Republique du Cameroun) to form the Federal Republic of Cameroon.

Over the years, there has been a huge amount of literature about the state and outcome of that union. This posting will not dwell on the issue but will instead  focus on some of the reservations expressed primarily in Southern Cameroons before the plebiscite. I leave it to the reader to compare the pre-plebiscite predictions to today’s realities.

Passionate Debates
The plebiscite came amidst a passionate and intense debate between the integrationists who wanted Southern Cameroons to become part of  Nigerian, and the unificationists who dreamt of a great "Pan-Kamerunian Nation" made up of the British and French Cameroons.

In spite of the numerous reassurances from President Ahidjo that unification was not about the assimilation of  Southern Cameroons, there were strident cries of protests and shrill warnings about the impending unification.

In a message to the people of Southern Cameroons a couple of weeks before the plebiscite, Sir Abubakar Tafawa Balewa, the Nigerian Prime Minister, pointed out to them that they were being asked to choose between "certainty and security:  an honorable status as an integral part of a big country", or assimilation by a country with an alien culture and a government which had made no clear promises to the people of  the British Cameroon:

    "If you vote against Nigeria, I cannot see how you can avoid living a life of poverty, hardship and under the constant shadow of violence, " he warned.

This view was shared by many in the Southern Cameroons, including a leading newspaper "Cameroon Champion", which described Southern Cameroon Prime Minister Foncha’s obsession with the utopic bilingual Cameroon federation where Southern Cameroons will "finally be free" as "Foncha's false Jerusalem" in its Feb. 8, 1961 issue.

Even in La Republique du Cameroun which really had nothing to lose from the whole deal, there were many who believed strongly that unification was uncalled for. Writing in a local paper, a native of Ntem Division in the Centre Province asked a fundamental question that is still relevant to this day:

    Qu'elle avantage y' a-t-il a demander la réunification des deux Cameroun si, a première vue, nous devons considérer nos frères Bamiléké et Bassa comme des étrangers dans notre propre département?  Dans quelle catégorie rangerions-nous un Camerounais originaire du Cameroun Britannique si nous nous considérons nous-mêmes comme des ennemis et si le simple fait de dire Bassa ou Bamileke dans le Ntem devient (, ) un crime méritent la mort?

However, the direst prediction about the outcome of the union between the British and French Cameroons was made by the Southern Cameroons leader of opposition and the territory's first Premier, Dr. EML ENDELEY. This prediction, which basically promised Southern Cameroons fire and brimstone in the event of  the “Kamerun option” winning the day, was contained in a Cameroon Peoples National Convention (CPNC) pamphlet published on the eve of the plebiscite. Endeley’s CNPC described the message as "eternal evidence of the full note of WARNING that is being sounded in good time to all Cameroon people before they make their historic choice of February 11." Excerpts of this document are available in another posting.

On February 11, 1961, the people of Southern Cameroons went to the polls to choose between two options:

    (a) Do you wish to achieve independence by joining the independent Federal Republic of Nigeria?
    or
    (b) Do you wish to achieve independence by joining the independent Republic of Cameroon?

Endeley’s dire warnings failed to sway voters and Prime Minister John Ngu Foncha’s pro-unification KNDP carried the day. Southern Cameroonians voted overwhelmingly (70,49%) to achieve independence by joining La Republique du Cameroun while Northern Cameroons, which also took part in the plebiscite, opted for remaining as a part of the Federal Republic of Nigeria.

According to Francis Wache (Cameroon Life Magazine, March 1991), as soon as it became obvious that Foncha's "Pan-Kamerunist" option had won the day,

    ,  a song rippled through the grassfields surpassable only, perhaps, by the dry season fires in the area: The chant ran:

    Foncha has walloped Endeley
    Foncha has walloped Endeley
    If Foncha hadn't been there
    Endeley would have sold us.

However, close to a century later, the pan-Kamerunian dream had become a nightmare for the people of Southern Cameroons.  As Wache points out in the same CamLife article,

    Today, thirty years after the event, a song is being hummed through the length and breadth of the Western shore of the Mungo:

    Because Foncha trounced Endeley
    Because Foncha trounced Endeley
    If Foncha had not trounced Endeley
    We wouldn't have been sold."

John Ngu Foncha, the "architect of the unification" did not challenge this view at the twilight of his life as evidenced by his 1990 letter of resignation from the ruling CPDM, by his heart-wrenching mea culpa at the 1993 All Anglophone Conference in Buea, and by his little-known statement to the 1994 Constitutional Consultative Commission, excerpts of which are available in another posting.

http://www.dibussi.com/2006/02/the_cameroons_u.html

babapupa:
Attention:::


Do not post in this thread/support ignorance and stupidity, keep away.

As you can see this thread is not for illiterates. So move on.

The most painful aspect of this whole saga is that as of 1957, Eastern Nigeria and Western Nigeria were basically independent.
Assuming that both Zik and Awo were waiting for the north, why was it necessary to accept a less educated leadership under the north? Why!

Where was EVERYBODY ELSE when this weird deal was going on?

Were these three guys that powerful?

Personally, I think that Nigeria's founding fathers were clueless, and I am particularly pained because they: Nnamdi Azikiwe, Obafemi Awolowo, and Ahmadu Bello were all regarded as being very well educated and visionaries. Events of the last 50 years in Nigeria question their education, wisdom and vision.

How did Nigeria lose Western Cameroon under the watch of Nnamdi Azikiwe? If Zik had a clue, arguably all other ills that befell Nigeria would have been avoided including Bakassi. The man believed he could build a house upside down.

Obafemi Awolowo never understood that he could build Yoruba land without destroying Yoruba cosmopolitanism which made it possible for the independence movement to take off from the west under Herbert Macaulay. He couldn't see that the Yoruba could lead a new Nigeria by those set of values and their educational advantage at the time. By instigating carpet crossing, he killed all those and planted a culture of suspicion and hate. 

Ahmadu Bello, not withstanding his education, believed that a new Nigeria could be led by the less educated section of the country. If he could accept British rule (which basically put the educated man ahead of his illiterate counterpart), why couldn't he allow his fellow Africans  who were more educated to lead the country? What was he thinking?

That is why you would never see me defend any of the three. Never!

Personally I think that Nigeria's founding fathers were all fools.  None of them had a real clue.

Awolowo couldn't see beyond his spectacle.
Zik believed in building a house upside down.
Ahmadu Bello believed that a cart could pull a horse.

All people of warped vision and mindset.

I will open a thread on the three to find out who among them was the biggest fool.

Why do I have a feeling that this story is incomplete?

@OP, is there something you are leaving out?

In any case, there are too many strange marriages in Nigeria these days, else, how could one rationalize this man's action here.

What type of a psycho would do such thing?

I think that in the whole 22 pages of this debate, the most interesting quote was someone who said this:

"To the ant on the table, the earth is flat".

lmao!

Thread closed. I'm out.

sjeezy8:
are you mentally ok ?

and you said countries - Arabs and ethiopians worked as kingdoms and caliphates- not as countries
There were no "african countries" in the 1800's other than SA-which had a white settler colony from EUROPE.

you are trying to make a different argument address what I said-

Fela was no match to Awo because fela didnt run a government- Please stick to the topic in term of development name anyone who was equal to Awo.

We are talking about government structure and development for governments during Awos time-

Babapupa's claims were the same set of bulls we've heard since we were kids.

From the same set of myths, Mrs Fumilayo Ransome Kuti was the first woman in Africa to drive a car!

sjeezy8:
please name them and name countries - that didnt have whites as settlers

So because they are white or Arabs or Ethiopians they are no longer Africans?

babapupa:
But you did not answer my questions?

Is having the 1st TV station in Africa, even before a lot of European countries not a good thing for Nigerian and Nigerians in general?

Is having the fist modern stadium in Africa not a good thing for Nigeria and Nigerians in general?


The fact that these historic achievements were sited in the west doesn't alter the term 1st in Africa and Nigeria. Refusing to acknowledge and take pride in that obviously reflects your own worse tribal affliction.

Do you have proof of these claims?

Do you know that many African countries were already fully established and functional even in the 1800s (before Nigeria was ever dreamed of)?

What in the world are you talking?

babapupa:
It is perfectly safe to reach and re-assert that conclusion if after 22 pages and still zero equal.

I think that in the whole 22 pages of this debate, the most interesting quote was someone who said this:

"To the ant on the table, the earth is flat".

lmao!

Even as I write this, the most sensible arrangement would be to build up Port Harcourt and give it the type of transportation (especially shipping) infrastructure rivaling Lagos. There is a need for synergy between South east and south south on this. The Igbo business men want to bring their money closer home. Only when such synergy is established would that happen.

afam4eva:
But port-hacour had no federal funding like Lagos and Abuja.

Yes, but that was not going to stop the regional government under Okpara. In fact, under the regional government, it was more doable, and they were already doing it before the coup of 1966.

Our current mistake is to assume that only the federal government can undertake such projects. In a properly reconstituted regional arrangement, it is more likely to be accomplished.

afam4eva:
I wonder why Port-hacourt should be declared a special territory along with Lagos and Abuja. It was never a capital.

Actually it makes sense because of its location and cosmopolitan make up. That is what the former Eastern Nigeria government under Michael I. Okpara wanted to do with Port Harcourt. They wanted Port Harcourt to rival Lagos in terms of development. Everything went to the dogs once the agents of divide and conquer had their way.