₦airaland Forum

ijawkid: You have come again with your foolish myopic suppositions.....how can you say evolution is infallible??....only a fool raised to the power of 1 million would run into such conclusion...not even your atheist G.O's would say this.......rubbish!!!.......

NOW WHO IS SPEAKING, A CHRISTIAN WHO BELIEVE IN 6 DAY CREATION?? NOT WORTHY OF MY ENERGY!!

greatgenius: you should. you will be one more, less ignorant to deal with..

[size=15pt]DUFFER[/size]

davidylan: If anyone can understand such convoluted logic please help me out.

you are so myopic. You dont even understand the nonsense you are spitting out yourself. That is funny.

I will leave you with Epicurus

davidylan: This is purely circular reasoning. Again i repeat - your host knowing you wont attend (since he knows the end from the beginning) does not detract from the fact that you took the decision to REJECT his invitation. YOUR freewill is the reason you are not attending the party.

The host knowing i will not attend is the reason i wont attend. I might decide to attend but some mythical spiritual force will thwart my plan anyway, so the plan of this omniscient monster would come true.

greatgenius: are you alright or just dumb. in one sentence i tell you that we create our realities and in another sentence you are telling me i cry on God for solutions?..is that what you deduced from my statement?

[size=15pt]IGNORED[/size]

davidylan: I would rather look to a Saviour than fallen man. If you could help yourself you wont be here worrying about God.

lol. a "fallen" man? SMH. For the nth time, you created a topic: cowardice of atheism. You invited us.

The Mods also instructed us to use the religious section for our posts. This is why we remain here in the first place. We have unsuccessfully asked for Atheism section

Evolution is so infallible!

Frosbel, what's with you and that business man. Better leave him alone and see to your business.

davidylan: It is true that your host knows you will not attend... however that was squarely your choice. You cant blame the host for extending an invitation that you flatly reject and deride.

It doesnt matter if i accept the invitation or not. My host already knows if i will attend or not, he/she already knows the end from the beginning, so my freewill does not matter.

what is so hard in that that you cant understand?

davidylan: all the best to them and whoever they cry to.

we look into ourselves for answers, you on the other hand look to your imaginary savior

greatgenius: the bolded is the problem which unfortunately is not only an atheist problem but majorly of humans..most people have no idea that they create their reality

atheists do not cry on God for solutions, you do

davidylan: lol the atheist value system is quite warped. They complain that God hasnt come down and made the earth just one beautiful garden with absolutely no pain or "evil" (forgetting of course that man creates evil by his own freewill)... they then go ahead and moan at God for not giving us the freewill to create the "imperfections" they do not want!

The devil thwarted your God's plan, and then nothing goes right with the world again. How is that for an omniscient God

davidylan: How? Does your choice not to attend a party you were invited to infringe on the freewill of your host to invite you or not?

my host, in this case God, already knows if i will attend or not. My choice to attend does not matter in the situation.

Where there is kismet, you have no choice or option, its all pre-decided. Your freewill does not matter

davidylan: ok you are simply stumbling around in the dark now.

Its like being invited to a party. The person who extends the invite had the freewill to invite your or not. You on the other hand have the right to come or not. See my freewill as the party organizer to decide to invite you is not limited by your choice to come to the party or not.

Pathetically erroneous.

InesQor: I am saying, what if God has a sort of "formula" that dependent on your freewill choice, will give an end result? This too is a sort of omniscience.

Besides being an engineer, I am a computer programmer and I perfectly understand this. I create an array of options and I program it thus: if the user does this, then do this. Otherwise if the user does this, do that. Otherwise... etc. Basically, I believe God's omniscience has a wide range of eventualities, and your freewill decides how things end.

Then god himself lacks freewill. He is limited by number of options available and he isn't conscious, if your analogy is the case.

InesQor: This brings us back to Molinism and counterfactuals, which is my belief when it comes to God's omniscience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

Molinists believe that God does not only have knowledge of necessary truths and contingent truths but that God's middle knowledge contains, but is not limited to, His knowledge of counterfactuals. A counterfactual is a statement of the form "if it were the case that P, it would be the case that Q". An example would be, "If Bob were in Tahiti he would freely choose to go swimming instead of sunbathing." The Molinist claims that even if Bob is never in Tahiti, God can still know whether Bob would go swimming or sunbathing.

If it were the case that P, then it would be the case that Q.
ELSE
If it were the case that S, it would be the case that T.
ELSE
If it were the case that M, it would be the case that N.
ELSE
....
etc

I believe God's middle knowledge contains all these counterfactuals. Whichever decision you make, creates an entirely new "universe", and God already has them all analyzed in his omniscience.

This idea nullifies omniscience in its entirety.

InesQor: Another angle:

What if we think of omniscience like a kind of complex formula?

E.g. The formula for the surface area of a sphere is 4*pi*r^2 no matter the radius r. This example is simplistic but, no matter what "r" you choose, the surface area is already known. This does not mean you did not have a freewill in selecting a radius, BUT no matter what radius you choose, my formulaic omniscience already knows where you would be going.

What if there was a being, that theists refer to as God, who has some complex formula of experience, that ALREADY KNOWS how things will end depending on the freewill choices you make? Is this an impossible scenario?

If the end result is known from the beginning, freewill is nullified. If a god knows the surface area, then no matter what, you would use a radius that would give that specific answer.

InesQor: A necessary preliminary to analyze this Freewill vs Omniscience problem with regards to a theist's perspective would be to attempt to think outside the confines of space and time. Otherwise this argument is futile.

Can you imagine that? A complex conscious being spawned out of nothing, then made all things out of nothing. Makes perfect sense.!?

Obi1kenobi: Ah, the same chestnut about a God outside human logical constraints. If an argument fails logically, just add a touch of mysticism and mystique to this being and voila, the questions disappear.

Isn't that funny? The bible NEVER makes any sense without a touch of miracle. Yet they claim its scientific.

The xtians ignorance is alarming. SMH

greatgenius: so what exactly is your point. does God knowing exactly what market you end up at change your freewill to choose what market you prefer to be at?.. does it violate your free will?..

Isn't that the point? If you end up at any other market than that predetermined by god, then he is not omniscient anymore. That os how freewill and omniscience are mutually exclusive.

davidylan: have atheists like you kept yourselves out of God discussions? I note that you like to gatecrash a lot of them.

See, exchanges like this are ultimately pointless... it is the safe haven for atheists who have no idea what they are talking about and thus are left with abuse as the only option.

ALL atheist -theist debates everywhere are always called by theists who are evangelizing, just as you called this. Dont forget that.

You called a debate-if we participate - then we cant stop talking about god, if we dont - then we are cowards. Does such conclusions makes you feel intelligent?

davidylan: except of course you seem to obsessed talking about a faceless "God" who you say doesnt exist. Keep deceiving yourself.

Have you forgotten you created a thread that addresses atheists. Keep atheist out of god discussion next time.

davidylan: Apparently you are on stage 4 of the script. Enjoy.

The implications are very apparent to me - the atheist wants to blame God for being at fault for His atheism. If freewill were to be true then you would all be in serious trouble.

On the contrary,god does not exist so I can't blame him. Just want you to realize that so you will be proactive. Your kind is the cause of african poverty

davidylan: See stage 4 of script. Atheists never disappoint.

He is not an atheist, dumbazz

davidylan: If making things up suits you fine then be my guest. Again you seem to be ultra angry at this God... i wonder why.

You are confused. You have lost it all. You dont even know what you are talking about and its implications.

SMH

davidylan: Actually you seem to be projecting your problems to me. What am i supposed to "learn"? That dogmatic atheist nonsense is worth a response?

Learn to think outside recorded myths

davidylan: Let me repeat... being aware of how a thing ends doesnt mean i manipulated you to make the choices you made.

I know that you will fail if you refuse to study for an exam... doesnt mean that you should blame me for making you fail your exams.

You failed to realize that this dumb analogy doesn't apply to god.

His omniscence is not based on our freewill. Except you are saying it is, which nullifies omniscience in the first place.

Just listen to the rubbish you are spitting. If I were a xtian, I would say its heresy.

Ihedinobi: Typical atheist nonsense

xtians and their stu.pidity.

Silence is the best answer for f.ools.

davidylan: i.e. this is my point of view (completely divorced from any form of reality), so i'm going to assume that every rational human should agree with me (even if most dont and have no idea what my lips are flapping about)...

So to disagree with me would make you "dumb" (since i have an utopian view of my own perceived intelligence).

Ah there ooman, helped you flesh out your thoughts.

Suit yourself. You never learn.

davidylan: You seem to be quite angry... at a God who doesnt exist? Strange.

Back to your post... lol you need to determine first before you know? What a complete joke.

Know before you determine or vice versa doesn't change the fact that your god is aware of the ending of a thing before its starts. You failed on this.

Ihedinobi: @bold, I totally agree. And, uh, stay the hell away from questions you can't answer, mon ami.



Er, are you proposing to try and help your atheist buddies out with an explanation for how omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive? Look at the downside, man. You could be Atheist #3 who fails at this.

Any normal human knows that freewill and omniscience are mutually exclusive. Dont be another dumb xtian arguing an impossibility