₦airaland Forum

Reyginus: Na wa o. You just ended up contradicting yourself. Once you say a thing is in repetive order, what it entails is that, it follows a particular order. Or maybe you have something better. Can anything be repetitive and yet doesn't follow an order? What then is the meaning of 'repetition'?

dumb. Orders brought about by intelligence is what you are asking, or have you forgotten your question?

anonymoux: [size=18pt]LET ME CLEAR THINGS AROUND HERE... "GOD" HAS ONLY ONE MEANING AND IT IS "MY CREATOR" SO IF YOU SAY THERE IS NO GOD, IT MEANS YOU ARE SAYING, THAT YOU WERE CREATED, BUT YOUR CREATOR DOES NOT EXIST - WOW!!! SOMEBODY WHAT A GREAT IRONY[/size]

dumb. and why are you shouting to say rubbish?

you werent created, your ancestor evolved and you were born. simple

Double Post

ogaga25: do u believe in re-incarnation?

WHY WOULD I BELIEVE IN SUCH A DUMB THINKING

[quote author=inspiredbyGOD:.]You might feel that what you have done hurts nobody and another person holds the view that it hurts someone. The problem is that if we are the ones defining good and evil, then good and evil do not really exist. If good
and evil are just ideas that we get to come up with and tweak the meaning of, then they cannot really have any authority over us. If it's wrong to punch you just because you say so, why should I care? You say it's wrong, but I
might say it's right. Who is going to decide which one of us is correct?[/quote]THIS IS WHY WE HAVE COURTS OF LAW - WHOSE LAWS ARE BASED ON THAT SIMPLE BASIC LAW OF DO NOT HURT ANYONE - DUMB AZZ

Reyginus: ooman, my friend, I don't agree with this. Their may not necessarily be a degree with the tag 'high', but their are variations in the classification of designs. Let's use a wood and the universe as example. That the cellulose fiber is embedded in the lignin matrix of a wood, in spiral arrangement, is common knowledge because of the design's simplicity. On a complex note, till this moment, our understanding of the universe is not absolute. To now say, the design pattern of the wood and universe are synonymous by deeming them repetitive, betrays commonsense.

what we observe in the universe as a whole is repetitive patterns, NEVER A PARTICULAR ORDER OR DESIGN BROUGHT ABOUT BY AN INTELLIGENCE OR GOD.

pseudonomer: For any readers who've embraced atheism, this is offered as encouragement to reconsider that philosophy.

Atheism lacks logic because it underestimates the complexity of life, doesn't do the math well--especially fractal geometry--and it won't ask itself the really hard question. (Fractal geometry, originally called Chaos Theory, is a relatively branch of mathematics that discovered that the patterns of coastlines, leaves, trees, hilly land-scapes and virtually anything in nature are NOT RANDOM but mathematically calculable--and evidence of supreme Designer!)

well, read this

wikipedia: Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions, an effect which is popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general. This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.

Heisenberg uncertainty principle makes it certain that this does not leave the field of mathematics, hence cannot be applied to cosmology - and that also means that this theory is applicable to closed systems, the earth is not a closed system.

wikipedia: In common usage, "chaos" means "a state of disorder". However, in chaos theory, the term is defined more precisely. Although there is no universally accepted mathematical definition of chaos, a commonly used definition says that, for a dynamical system to be classified as chaotic, it must have the following properties:[8]

it must be sensitive to initial conditions;
it must be topologically mixing; and
its periodic orbits must be dense.

The requirement for sensitive dependence on initial conditions implies that there is a set of initial conditions of positive measure which do not converge to a cycle of any length.

this is exactly what evolution means. Chaos theory proves evolution right by stating how ordered systems, living systems and inorganic chemicals evolved from a state of total chaos after the big bang. Never refers to an external designer.

pseudonomer: Where did law of Physics come from and why do they always work?

Laws of nature are never constant. They change in different environment. For example, triple point of water can only occur on earth, NEVER ON MARS. The laws on earth about water applies to the triple point of water. but when you are on Mars or Mercury, you have to discuss the single point of H2O. Laws of nature do not always work in all conditions. They are not fixed. There are only the way matter behaves, not the way matter MUST ALWAYS behave.

pseudonomer: Atheism doesn't want to answer this question, yet science willingly assumes the certainty of these physical laws.

Atheism has answered this question times without number. Your failure to learn is your ignorance.

pseudonomer: Theoritic physicists have in recent years developed the matrix or M-Theory--an extension of string theory--to explain the universe. (You'll google it, as there's no room to address it here.) But even that has at its basis certain fixed laws of physics. Where did those laws come from?

read this

wikipedia: [size=15pt]M-theory (and string theory) has been criticized for lacking predictive power or being untestable. Further work continues to find mathematical constructs that join various surrounding theories. However, the tangible success of M-theory can be questioned, given its current incompleteness and limited predictive power.[/size]

pseudonomer: When pushed for an origin of the laws of science, the atheistic-evolutionary answer essentially is that those laws have just always been there. Thus logic fails the atheist movement by the refusal to address origins.

When did an atheist or a scientist ever tell you that laws have always been there? We know the universe is not eternal, so how come the laws governing it will be eternal or "always been there"? does that sound like logic to you?

Laws of nature are not fixed. There are only the way matter behaves, not the way matter MUST ALWAYS behave. They change and they only evolved when matter evolved.

pseudonomer: Bottom line: Laws--spiritual or physical--[size=15pt]demand a Lawgiver who is also a law Sustainer.[/size] And that would be God.

IGNORANT.
Laws of nature change in different conditions. hence there is no need for a sustainer. Laws only evolved when matter evolved, hence the question of a giver is terminated.

greatgenius: ok maybe i should make myself clear on this topic..i am not arguing against the contradiction. my stance was and is that omniscience and free will can and does co-exist. just like light and darkness co-exist..love/hate, good/bad, positive/negative, white/black etc..these are all "contradictions" but they co-exist..in the world of relationships/relavity they all seem like contradictions but in the realm of the sublime they are not..ultimately like white and black seemingly "contradictory" stuff are one and the same. different degrees of the same thing..

white and black can never co-exists. their mixture, effusion and diffusion always produces gray. What nonsense are you saying? and no one has stop this madness? Atheists what is going on with you guys?

greatgenius: yes ultimately there is no such thing as freewill, becuase like darkness it is an illusion(but so is physicallity or more precisely relavity)

actually, freewill is not part of those things i would term as illusion. Its my choice and its real. If i decide to go on hunger strike, i would feel hunger, freewill is real just like we are.

greatgenius: and God is only playing a game with himself

glad you know that

greatgenius: ..so like matter, freewill is a real illusion.. the problem with this argument is if you see yourself as seperate from God then the more deeper you get into it the more confused you become which is evidenced from most of the responses here..

pathetically erroneous.

greatgenius: i haven't backtracked you just obviously does not not understand as usual..
let me put it this way..are those who claim God created or the universe came about through a series of process taking "billions of years" right? yes..what about those who claim he seems to have created the universe in an instant. well they are also right. God created the universe in an [size=15pt]"instantbillions"[/size]..both sides are right.. but to you and a lot of other people being right means the other must be wrong.

Pitifull and PATHETIC

greatgenius: now to your question. is there a contradiction or not? well answer this is there a contradiction between white and black or they are actually one and the same..

black and white can never co-exist. asking about contradiction depends on what you mean but they are not one, can never be one and they are not the same. white is a continuous spectrum of SEVEN COLORS. BLACK IS ABSENT OF SPECTRUM, SO WHAT NONSENSE ARE YOU SAYING?

greatgenius: my answer to your question is there is/isnot a contradiction..( This is sort of in the same line as my statement in another thread that "God is everywhere and nowhere in particular" mantra that @Anomy failed to get. so i wont be surprise if you also fail to grasp this is/isnot concept)

CHRIST, even those who are mad think they are intelligent and that no one else is as intelligent as they are.!!! No offense

BY WHAT HURTS OR DOES NOT HURT YOUR FELLAS, THAT IS HOW WE DETERMINE WHAT IS GOOD AND BAD. POR.N IN OUR VIEW, AS LONG AS NO ONE IS GETTING HURT, IS NOT WRONG TO US

greatgenius: ok maybe i should make myself clear on this topic..i am not arguing against the contradiction. my stance was and is that omniscience and free will can and does co-exist. [size=15pt]just like light and darkness co-exist..[/size]love/hate, good/bad, positive/negative, white/black etc..these are all "contradictions" but they co-exist..in the world of relationships/relavity they all seem like contradictions but in the realm of the sublime they are not..ultimately like white and black seemingly "contradictory" stuff are one and the same. different degrees of the same thing..

yes ultimately there is no such thing as freewill, becuase like darkness it is an illusion(but so is physicallity or more precisely relavity) and God is only playing a game with himself..so like matter, freewill is a real illusion.. the problem with this argument is if you see yourself as seperate from God then the more deeper you get into it the more confused you become which is evidenced from most of the responses here..

LIGHT AND DARK CAN CO-EXIST HOW POSSIBLE IS THAT ITS A TOTAL IMPOSSIBILITY. DARKNESS DISAPPEARS IN THE PRESENCE OF LIGHT AND SO DOES FREEWILL IN THE PRESENCE OF OMNISCIENCE AND VICE VERSA

SMH

musKeeto: For those who still have doubts as to how to win an argument like a Christian, just a few highlights from a poster here on another thread...
Note the part in red...

you still dont get the point. FREEWILL AND OMNISCIENCE ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. FOR THE FACT THAT I HAVE MULTIPLE CHOICES AND THAT THERE ARE MULTIPLE OUTCOMES HAS NULLIFIED OMNISCIENCE

Logicboy03: Please, dont mind this guy. He is not one of the intelligent christians.




Nice article by the way

Reyginus unintelligence is so alarming and stunning.

[quote author=dotcom_na_me_na_me]There is a perception out there today that it is atheists and skeptics who have the intellectual high ground when it comes to matters of faith, logic, reason and science. Christians are commonly portrayed in the media as basing their beliefs on "blind faith" without having any evidence to back them up.

The reality, as many of you already know, is the complete opposite of that.

But still many skeptics and atheists run around as if they are the "enlightened ones" and all the Christians are a bunch of uneducated, illiterate, eediots.

[size=15pt]Well, here are five surefire questions i came up with to leave the atheists stumped![/size]


(1) How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe if there is no God?

(2) How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible complexity of its essential components?

(3) If God does not exist, then from where comes humanity's universal moral sense?

(4) How do scientists know stars are "millions of light years away"? Have they been there and back? Do they have a tape measure that stretchs that long?

(5) If our brains are just a mishmash of biochemistry, how come chemicals like gasoline or bug spray can't think?

(6) Do you affirm or deny that atheism is a worldview? Why or why not?

(7) Not all atheists are antagonistic to Christianity, but for those of you who are, why the antagonism?

(8.) What would it take for you to believe in God?

(9) If you affirm evolution and that the universe will continue to expand forever, then do you think it is probable that given enough time, brains would evolve to the point of exceeding mere physical limitations and become free of the physical and temporal, and thereby become "deity" and not be restricted by space and time? If not, why not?

(10) If you answered the previous question in the affirmative, then aren't you saying that it is probable that some sort of God exists?


Please no insults/abusive words. If you cannot answer any of the questions, please fast forward yourself.

I Respectfully Request The MOD That This Should Apply: Failure by anyone to comment politely with no insults should result in deletions of your posts, suspension of posting privileges, and/or complete banning by the MOD, or better you don't comment at all.[/quote][size=15pt]but you asked 10 questions!!! [/size]

[quote author=dotcom_na_me_na_me]There is a perception out there today that it is atheists and skeptics who have the intellectual high ground when it comes to matters of faith, logic, reason and science. Christians are commonly portrayed in the media as basing their beliefs on "blind faith" without having any evidence to back them up.

The reality, as many of you already know, is the complete opposite of that.

But still many skeptics and atheists run around as if they are the "enlightened ones" and all the Christians are a bunch of uneducated, illiterate, eediots.

Well, here are five surefire questions i came up with to leave the atheists stumped!


(1) How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe if there is no God?

(2) How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible complexity of its essential components?

(3) If God does not exist, then from where comes humanity's universal moral sense?

(4) How do scientists know stars are "millions of light years away"? Have they been there and back? Do they have a tape measure that stretchs that long?

(5) If our brains are just a mishmash of biochemistry, how come chemicals like gasoline or bug spray can't think?

(6) Do you affirm or deny that atheism is a worldview? Why or why not?

(7) Not all atheists are antagonistic to Christianity, but for those of you who are, why the antagonism?

(8.) What would it take for you to believe in God?

(9) If you affirm evolution and that the universe will continue to expand forever, then do you think it is probable that given enough time, brains would evolve to the point of exceeding mere physical limitations and become free of the physical and temporal, and thereby become "deity" and not be restricted by space and time? If not, why not?

(10) If you answered the previous question in the affirmative, then aren't you saying that it is probable that some sort of God exists?


Please no insults/abusive words. If you cannot answer any of the questions, please fast forward yourself.

I Respectfully Request The MOD That This Should Apply: Failure by anyone to comment politely with no insults should result in deletions of your posts, suspension of posting privileges, and/or complete banning by the MOD, or better you don't comment at all.[/quote]1. there is no "high" degree of design in nature. there is only repetitive patterns of constantly composed baryons. There is also no "high" degree of order in nature. disorder, entropy, is in fact on the increase daily. Learn about the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

2. there is nothing about a living cell that is irreducible. Hence, there is nothing like"irreducible complexity of its essential components". What are the essential components? Ribosomes that make proteins? well they are made from RNAs, RNAs are from organic chemicals, combinations of inorganic chemicals make up organic chemicals, mostly C,H,O,S,N,P. The inorganic chemicals are composed of constant composition of baryons, baryons themselves are charges of energy in specific ratios.

3. Morality evolved from need for group survival. Every social species have laws that governs how the young, males and females behave - being territorial for example, tells a dog or a lion where to go and where not to go and when to be humble or fight back. No God needed.

4. Knowing the speed of light, scientists can measure the photons given by any star by the rate at which it reaches earth. Just google that yourself, try to learn than ask questions.

5. Our brains are not mishmash of biochemistry. They are well structured network of cells, the result of billions of years of evolution in previous ancestor by natural selection - natural selection means the passage of better genes from generation to generation. Passage of novel genes for millions of years produced our brain, and its still evolving to hypersapiens. Have you not heard of the rainman or the movie? just google that.

Consciousness can only come from specific network of particular cells, hence only organs like brains - the amygdala, neocortex code for consciousness and memory. Gasoline cannot think because its molecules are not arranged into cells (i cant believe an answering this dumb question). Bugs on the order hand are aware of their environment, hence knows when there is danger and so run for their lives or when to stay and feed. Each organism's consciousness and intelligence is limited by the number of brain neurons. The chimpanzees can both make and use tools - google that.

6. waste of nairaland space

7. who are those antagonizing you?

8. God should poke his nose down for me to see.

9. there nothing like that. transdeism, pantheism and the like theories are cooked up by christians and not by atheists, so why not ask them.

10. waste of nairaland space

bye bye

Good night guys, sweet dreams to atheists, sweet revelations to Christians, suicide bombing to Muslims.

davidylan: how did you know this?

just revise your analogy again pls!

davidylan: You seem to be running in blind alleys. How does God cease to be omniscient if you accept His invitation?

because his Aforeknowledge says that i will not accept the invitation. YOU NEED TO REVISE YOUR OWN ANALOGY AGAIN

davidylan: Bro... the only thing He has asked of you is to simply believe... easy. you dont have to sacrifice a goat, bow down 90 times, climb 20 mountains.... only believe and confess Him as Lord.

You still dont get it. Whatever decision i make, God already knows, since he is omniscient. Him, offering me salvation based on my own decision HAS NULLIFIED HIS OMNISCIENCE, that is if he cares. If he doesnt care, he might know i wont accept but still allow salvation to be based on MY decision. Even at that, HIS OMNISCIENCE IS STILL NULLIFIED. Dont forget we are debating that omniscience and freewill are mutually exclusive, because now you are getting emotional, wanting me to accept a non existent being as my "savior". stupi.dity

davidylan: The only problem is He wont force it down your throat if you dont want it. You're not a 2 yr old... you're mature enough to be able to think and make a decision on how you want to spend eternity.

did you mention eternity?? You know not what you talk about. Consciousness in a disordered state? common, i thought you knew better!!

cyrexx: Is this your definition of freewill? Free to serve god or else be tortured forever. What is free in that. It's like a lady is free to marry me or else I send her to my personal torture chamber for the rest of her life. You are telling me that's freewill. Na wa o.

The Christians are dumb as a chicken. Discussions with them must always be in free time like this!!

davidylan: But why is God knowing you wont accept His invitation stopping you from accepting it? You have the choice to change the course of your life but taking His invitation bro. Do it... honestly its not the horrible monasteric lifestyly you fear it is.

because if i accept it, then he is not omniscient anymore. You seem to have lost what you are really discussing.

davidylan: It may not make sense to you but all He has asked from you is to simply accept the IV. Nothing more.

But he knows end from beginning, he should have found a more appealing way to present the IV

davidylan: Why? You dont like freewill anymore?

what suggested that. Since he cares, he must find a way to give me. How does a father have his way around his 2 years old?

davidylan: Bro... how is it possible that the reason you are rejecting my birthday IV is because you know i know you wont attend?

That is the question... hiding behind deflections is not working.

its not you in this case. We are talking about GOD. you seem to be forgetting that often. He knows end from beginning and he is mute. DONT FORGET ITS ALWAYS ABOUT A GOD IN THIS DISCUSSION NOT YOU OR ANY OF YOUR DUMB ANALOGIES

davidylan: 1. So now you hate having the freewill?

2. God does care, He found a way around it. He died on the cross and has extended Salvation to you... however He wont go around your freewill to force it on you. The choice to accept or reject it still remains yours.

Nothing i said suggested hate

Yes, he ra.ped a virgin (engaged to be married) to give birth to himself, then allow the people to kill him on the cross and so claimed he has saved you. Makes perfect sense.

Are you blind? did you not say

davidylan: [size=15pt]2. God does care, He found a way around it.[/size]

why cant he find a way around making me accept the salvation too, regardless of my freewill

davidylan: i nearly choked on my goat meat oh my brother...

To your stupi,dity. Funny bird

greatgenius: this is soo ignorant..The presence of evil disapproves God?.. man i need to come to nairaland more often.

what is darkness except the absence of light? WHAT IS EVIL EXCEPT THE ABSENCE OF A GOD OR AT LEAST A GOOD GOD!! GOD IS BOTH EVIL AND MUTE

davidylan: Of course He does care. Why would He die on the cross if He didnt?

SO WHY ARE WE BLAMING FREEWILL IF GOD CARES? WHY CAN'T HE ACT REGARDLESS OF FREEWILL

cyrexx: Ooman,
Weldone, I commend your efforts, but you should know that arguing with Christians is like....

[size=20pt]FUUUUUUUNYYY. THANKSSSSSSSSSSS. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRREAT!!![/size]

davidylan: Epicurus is being disingenuous. If he claims that God should not allow evil then why are his disciples howling about God blocking their freewill?

You wanted freewill, you got it. Now you blame God for the consequences of your own actions?

who wanted freewill? who ever cried to God for freewill? he gave freewill out of his own freewill!

If God cares about what happens to people, he would find a way out of it. He is God and he is mute

davidylan: So in short Epicurus is saying:

If i create evil with my hands... blame God for not stopping it? And the disciples of Epicurus then go ahead to accuse God of taking away their freewill?

Does God care about what happens to people in this world? or does he leave everyone at everyone's mercy?

davidylan: So in short Epicurus is saying this - its not my fault... blame God.

EPICURUS is saying presence of evil disproves a God, OR at least a good God.

EVEN THE CHURCH TESTIFIES TO THIS