₦airaland Forum

Mordecai:
In the early days of the church, devotees paid for indulgences as part of the way to salvation.

In the teaching of the Catholic Church, an indulgence (Latin: indulgentia, from indulgeō, 'permit') is "a way to reduce the amount of punishment one has to undergo for sins"...
...
...By the late Middle Ages indulgences were used to support charities for the public good including hospitals.
(Culled from Wikipedia. Read more at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence )

Enter Martin Luther.

He came to reject several teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic Church; in particular, he disputed the view on indulgences. Luther proposed an academic discussion of the practice and efficacy of indulgences in his Ninety-five Theses of 1517. His refusal to renounce all of his writings at the demand of Pope Leo X in 1520 and the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at the Diet of Worms in 1521 resulted in his excommunication by the pope and condemnation as an outlaw by the Holy Roman Emperor. Culled from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther )

The movement led by Martin Luther laid the foundation for the Reformation, and the growth of the Protestant wing of Christianity. His views on celibacy led to the present ability of Christian clergy to marry and raise families. Mind you, all these were done in blatant disregard of the then church leadership, even under the banner of excommunication.

Today, these beneficiaries of the Reformation now want total, unquestioning submission by their adherents? When the foundation of Luther's rebellion was that salvation and, consequently, eternal life are not earned by good deeds (including tithing) but are received only as the free gift of God's grace through the believer's faith in Jesus Christ as redeemer from sin; and that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge, not the office of the Pope (or of the present day GOs)?

If only the founders of the evangelical movement would see what it has turned to in Africa.

Nobody is against debate , criticism . Oyedepo did not complain . But we have to point out the error of the new generation of Christians . The Bible is our guide

Janosky:
Bros, thanks.

1 Timothy 5:20

"Those who sin should be reprimanded in front of the whole church; this will serve as a strong warning to others"

Are Pastors liable to discipline and reprimand before the Church members ?
What's your take?

It depends . A junior Pastor can reprimand a senior Pastor openly . Everything depends on the gravity of the offense . It could be privately , or could be among Pastors and it can be before congregation

Sometimes private matters are dealt with privately and public matters are dealt with publicly

loswhite:
But your pastors opened their mouth to criticize the catholic church but cannot tolerate criticism. Majority of Nigerian Christians are just zombies

Be specific what did they say. Dealing with doctrinal difference By ministers is allowed . But it is different from Christians insulting Men of God

Jeezuzpick:
You are quick to assume I'm a "new breed".

I was born again 31 years ago.

Now, back to the issue.

A spiritual leader is not to be envied, because it's a very tough position 5o find oneself. Leaders are sober, grave people who weigh every word before they say it because their followers will hold on to them.

Personally, I try to live "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord" and I can easily find those by myself in the Bible. Like the Bereans,I weigh what these men say, and, I must admit, on many occasions, I find they stretch the Word a bit.

The key word is "let brotherly love continue". What we have now are men claiming to be "fathers" to other children of God, and claiming infallibility under the "touch not my anointed' thing.

Well, we are all anointed, all of us are "touch not", I stand by those words.

Se are Apostles, some Prophets, some are teachers , etc, but God appoints all and anoints all to function in His house.

For the purpose of function, yeah, some lead, but by structure, the Church is made of brethren, not "Daddies" and "children".

Don't think of it as an office with a boss and subordinates, where the boss takes credit or criticism for the success and failure of all. Rather think of it in the image of a football team, where there's a captain and assistant, but all play their part and are true friends, junilating together when they succeed and learning together when they fail.

The scriptures I quoted explains my stand with Gods word . There is no place in the Bible either old and New Testament which support Christians insulting their pastors .

Jude 1:8 (KJV)
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Quelme:
which God called them? People like you are what Martin Luther fought for. Emancipate yourself from religious slavery....

He followed the Bible .

Mordecai:
Freeze's controversy aside, I do not see why we can criticize the actions of political leaders, traditional rulers, and not religious leaders. Every organization will wither away without criticism.

The body of christ has structure and a culture from the Bible . We follow the Bible .

Exodus 22:28
28 Thou shalt not revile God, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
... But these men had no qualms criticizing laws and policies of the government.

As long as it’s within their human right and constitution

The recent CAMA law is a good case in question. They should thus open their own doors and windows to correction.

But by who ? You can air your opinion or present your case scripturally to your pastor privately if you have issues . Correction is Extreme language

They should not tolerate insults though.

Did Oyedepo complain ?

Take what the Bible says period . It’s against scripture For A christian to insult men of God

On another note, these churches are products of a rebellion by Martin Luther against the church leadership. Just saying...

He presented his Theses . He wasn’t insulting anybody

RTSC:
A president has lost his right to public respect if he misbehaves.

That is why he is president. He is a public servant, not a king.

You’re Wrong Read your Bible

1 Peter 2:18 (BBE)
18 Servants, take orders from your masters with all respect; not only if they are good and gentle, but even if they are bad-humoured.

verlmoon:
this is purely your opinion. anyone who reads the whole of psalm 105 would understand that God's anointed refers to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jocab and God regarded these people as his prophets as He revealed his plans to them and through them they were fulfilled.

And who is it referring to as prophets

Jeezuzpick:
Uncle,

In your bid to glorify these men, you seem eager to place yourself below them.

I urge you to accept the fact that they are not more blessed than you or me, neither does God love them more than He loves us.

We are all equal before God, and each one of us, if willing, God has an anointing for us to be vessels unto honour in His house.

Even an Usher needs God's anointing to function. I have personally seen an Usher pray and a blind man's eyes opened during Reinhard Bonkke's crusade.

Never forget that, and it shall be well with you.......or are you not God's anointed too?

Me I am also anointed o, I am among those God says to "touch not".

We all have equal salvation . But there are lines of authority in Gods kingdom . Some of you new breeds don’t study the Bible but you follow social media culture

Hebrews 13:17 (NLT)
17 Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

1 Corinthians 12:28 (KJV)
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

ziondaughter247:
'Touch not my anointed' is the most manipulative statement in christendom. I can assure you that many of thes pastors called themselves, they are not anointed. Just like one useless wicked man I worked with. Onye arurala! Later he will come and tell you he's a pastor and 'touch not my anointed'. Fake people!

'Pastors' should be called out for bad behaviour! in fact they should be held more accountable for their misdeeds.

You’re wrong ! There’s a process to deal with a matter . Did you Go to him , what was his response ? Who Did You report him to? God’s kingdom has discipline .

maasoap:
Your so called men of God are nothing but scammers and money worshippers

You’re not the first . So they said of Jesus .

John 7:12 (NLT)
12 There was a lot of grumbling about him among the crowds. Some argued, “He’s a good man,” but others said, “He’s nothing but a fraud who deceives the people.”

Righteousness89:
Let's Learn to Remove our Mouth From God's Servant! GOD who Called them knows How to Deal with them if they Go Astray..

You Attract and Acquire Trouble and Curses when you open your Tongue anyhow.

Numbers 16:1-5
1 Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men:
2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?
4 And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face:
5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

Numbers 16:28-33
28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

Numbers 12:1-10
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
2 And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it.
3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
4 And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.
5 And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.
10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

2 Kings 2:23-25
23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
25 And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

Precious message

jaeyking:
we are also forgetting a passage in the bible
1Cor.6.1 - If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?
1Cor.6.2 - Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
1Cor.6.3 - Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
1Cor.6.4 - Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!
1Cor.6.5 - I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?
1Cor.6.6 - But instead, one brother goes to law against another--and this in front of unbelievers!
1Cor.6.7 - The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?
1Cor.6.8 - Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.

Let me relate the issue, if you feel your pastor made a mistake or you feel they did something wrong,
you can approach them in the presence of Fellow believers and delivery the suit or you meet him one on one. Pray for him and treat him with love. no one is above mistake. But a public bashing is very wrong.
Sadly most Churches this days are far from what Apostle Paul said in his letters in 1 Corinthians.

so in summary what ever dispute should be settled in the church away from the ears of unbelievers.
as this enables More Love to be built within brethens.


and truth be told the Muslim Brethren are actually following this passage more than the Christian brethren.
Hardly will you see a Non-muslim interfere in their issues

Nice

antocreative:
Who ordained him a minister?

It doesn’t matter . You don’t have his record . Leave him alone

Timi141:
Imagine saying you can't call pastor's to order because the bible said so What sort of stupid rubbish is that?

If the Bible says so that settles the matter except you’re not a christian .

James 1:22 (KJV)
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Janosky:
No human is above discipline and correction

Sure . It depends on who has jurisdiction . You can only do it to someone under you not above you

Insults no.

Nice

Rebuke and reprimand/discipline, YES!

If you have authority over that person sure !

"

Touch not my anointed" has been twisted out of context for selfish,self serving interests.
"And Do my profits no harm"

Sacarcim is unnecessary

The Bible truth is that David was speaking against commiting murder of King Saul.
Did Prophet Nathan not rebuke David, Yahweh's anointed king , for adultery & murder?

Nathan Was prophet , Prophets can judge kings , prophet make and unmake kings. It’s their jurisdiction

Did Paul not rebuke/discipline Peter for strawing away from the gospel of Jesus Christ?

It was his jurisdiction . It was his church . If a man misbehave. In my house I can correct him

joefelin2345:
What are the evidences that some of these ministers are called by God? Is is becos they built big churches & cathedrals? Is it becos they have large followers? Is it becos they perform miracles which could be stage managed? Is it becos they claim that God called them?. Moses we know, Aaron we know, Joshua we know, Saul we know, David we know, other prophets & disciples in the old & new testaments we know. I have been watching some You tubes where a former Erelu Agbaye (now Erelu Jesu) accused some prominent Pastors & Bishops of being involved in ritual practices. Many of them have gone under ground.

That is why it is Safe for you to leave them alone. Leave all judgement for God

1 Corinthians 4:5 (KJV)
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

petengine:
When you insult the president of your country, you're respecting an elder. But when you insult a pastor, you're disrespecting your elders.

What fools! Respect kill you dey!!

A prophet can judge kings or a whole nation . It’s his office .

Jeremiah 1:10 (KJV)
10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

jmoore:
Touch not my anointed is a verse for manipulation..

That’s what rebel say and That’s an insult to the word of God.

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

These pastors think they have monopoly of wisdom.

So pastors are anointed while the members are not anointed?
See how ridiculous it sounds.
Fact: Every Christian is anointed.You can only threaten babies with 'touch not my anointed'.

God deliver us from a generation losing christian And Bible culture . The Kindom of Hod will always have leadership structure

Hebrews 13:17 (NLT)
17 Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit

1 Corinthians 12:28 (KJV)
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues..

safetyInspector:
So if a man of God correct you it means that he is judging you or are you a servant of satan?

Correction welcome . Only a man if God can correct a man of God . You point him to scriptures and hear his response . The scripture corrects all. When two men of God see a scripture differently there is no need of insults . Waka go and I waka go . Leave the rest to God who is the judge of every mans heart

Romans 14:4
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

EMMAUGOH:
Exactly what I reply them last time.. Jesus rebel againt Pharisee authorities because of the people are scared to point thier HYPOCRISY.. But in Nigeria ,either they are too blind to see or they just want false preaching to thrive out of fear

Jesus was prophet . A prophet is an oracle of God . He has authority to pronounce and judge

genkins:
All these from the old expired covenant of the old testament. In the new testament did u not see where Stephen was stoned to death? All the disciples were executed

Principles are forever . Acts 23 which I quoted was not Old Testament

Jude 1:8
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

jaxxy:
Rebellion is when u think u know too much and don’t learn

Wrong again . What you're defining is PRIDE not REBELLION. REBELLION rather is taking stand or resistance against authority .

Learning entails asking critical questions. Christians, pastor and leaders shudnt shun people from learn by asking critical questions

.

Nobody shun people from asking question. The bible encourages it. What some of you do rather is insulting and attacking ministers

This is not the Old Testament sir.
Unless u saying Moses is greater than Jesus. In this new dispensation of Christ, things are not done the old way.

Explain what is old testament? The principle of respect,?

Yes anybody can be a prophet, teacher, etc sofar u are willing cos they are gifts from the Holy Spirit which is in all believers.

Wrong! Anybody can't be a prophet . People are called by God into an office . But anyone can prophesy by faith . Prophesying is different from being a Prophet. You have to be called into and office its not a choice

Hebrews 5:4
And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

This gifts shud humble u not make u a terror to other believers. Only God can judge anybody. Judge not the Bible says. Stop ur arrogance and pride

Explain the pride pls.

A pastor is a servant. Jesus served his disciples. Greatness is by humility. Not arrogance.

Correct

Ure not talking to a naive person

Ok let's see the fruit

I’m standing for the truth not religious practices and routines.

Ok

Casan0va:

TO THINK THAT HE EVEN MAKES ANYBODY THAT WANTS TO COMMENT SAY THE "SHAHADA" BEFORE COMMENTING THERE BUT LEAVES CHRISTIAN THREADS FOR EVERY DISSENTER, ATHEIST, HATER, ANTICHRIST AND THE LIKE TO COMMENT WHATEVER THEY WANT TO


MR SEUN, IT'S BETTER YOU REMOVE THAT STUPID AND MINDLESS RESTRICTION OF MUSLIM THREADS OR YOU PUT IT ON CHRISTIAN THREADS, DON'T ATTRACT CURSES TO YOURSELF

Food for thought

mannasseh:
Everybody who has given his life to Christ is God's Announced and prophet not just Pastors

Wrong ! God’s principle isn’t the same in every generation . The Kindom of God runs by leadership offices which are to be respected .

1 Corinthians 12:28
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Hebrews 13:17 (AMPC)
17 Obey your spiritual leaders and submit to them [continually recognizing their authority over you], for they are constantly keeping watch over your souls and guarding your spiritual welfare, as men who will have to render an account [of their trust]. [Do your part to] let them do this with gladness and not with sighing and groaning, for that would not be profitable to you [either].

superlightning:
still a vague response.

Romans 14:4 speaks about downplaying one's calling. A minister is answerable to his master in terms of service (calling) and nobody is downplaying the calling of any minister of God here.

No rather it’s about judging and condemning a mans revelation , intention and conviction . Every man has a reason for his belief

InvertedHammer:
/*

Person wey dem catch na im be thief. Camera and social media are exposing many things. See how he looked like the real deal in the church. And some gullibles with ingrained low self-esteem(like petra1) will say "touch not my annointed" and let them continue with their crime/fraud.

Read my post not the title . It’ addressed your concern . If a man of God commits a crime against the law , the law should handle him .

Imagine what Chris went through with his wife before they divorced. Now imagine what Adeboye and Oyedepo's wives may be going through in silence. Public posturing doesn't always tell the story. */

You weren’t there so leave rumours out. Deal with the Bible

genkins:
All these from the old expired covenant of the old testament. In the new testament did u not see where Stephen was stoned to death? All the disciples were executed

Prophets were killed by jezebel too .? Persecution By the enemy Is a food for the righteous In every generation . Old and new. We are talking about Christians insulting Men if God . There is no validation for such in the Bible . It’s not a New Testament culture .

Jude 1:8
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Paul apologized to the highpriest after he Had insulted him unknowingly

jaxxy:
Who exactly is or are the ANOINTED?The answer is every believer is. Not any pastor or prophet

That’s what the rebellious Sons of Korah told Moses also.

Numbers 16:3
. . .And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?

God kingdom runs by leadership offices Not democracy . Rebels don’t like authority

Every believer is a pastor/prophet..

1 Corinthians 12:29
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Hebrews 13:17 (AMPC)
17 Obey your spiritual leaders and submit to them [continually recognizing their authority over you], for they are constantly keeping watch over your souls and guarding your spiritual welfare, as men who will have to render an account [of their trust]. [Do your part to] let them do this with gladness and not with sighing and groaning, for that would not be profitable to you [either].



Kindly do well to study true scriptures . Stop following rebellion .

Buliwyf:
You modern pastors are clowns. Suit wearing clowns.

I am sure there were people like you saying the same thing when Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees. All of a sudden you whip out bible verses to scare and stop dissent.

First question. Who anointed you? One conman goes and anoints another burgeoning conman and both now claim to be anointed in scamming people and parting them from their money.
It's funny how that anointing never lets you speak up against politicians thieving money and sitting in the front row of your churches and giving you a share of their stolen wealth. Cecelia Ibru before she was caught was gallivanting about with Redeem Church hierarchy and at no time did their anointing tell them to distance from her. Even Pastor Ize Iyamu will claim to also be an anointed man of God. I even hear that Paul Enenche who was shouting about building churches in a recent video was known to go about in different government parastatals praying for civil servants in high positions in Abuja and hustling his own money. Some of them were later caught with their hands in the till. Anointing my ass.

Second question. Why do you think we should criticize politicians and imams but leave your pastors out? So you want to be able to criticise other religious and secular leaders and insult them when they do something you don't agree with but don't want the same to be done to yours? You are a clown

When they insult Buhari they don't remember that elders should be respected. But as soon as their own erring pastors are insulted too they start screaming and playing the respect card. Nonsense.

You’re wrong . Read the Bible . I quoted from it

domino4211:
People like you and Righteousness89 need to be deported to Mali..
You're the ones drawing us back..

Explain . .

martineverest:
but Jesus condemned Pharisees stop using old testament to deceive Christians

Jesus was Prophet. I said in my post. A man of God can only be rebuked by God or a senior man of God but not by church members . Kindly read the post again