Hey Odumchi, I got banned again in that thread for posts at the bottom of this page:

https://www.nairaland.com/1249503/interesting-images-precolonial-early-colonial/8

Sorry to keep bothering you about unbanning my posts in that thread, but I'd appreciate it if you could unban me. Thanks.

The google books link preview page that you posted isn't showing up for me. It says "You have either reached a page that is unavailable for viewing or reached your viewing limit for this book" so clearly those pages are unavailable. However I did scroll down to p. 217 of the book, which is actually visible to me, and I started reading down from there. I read the claims put forward by the author about strong cultural similarities or connections between Africa and Indonesia and I was amused because they were all extremely superficial connections that do not in any way require direct contact for those cultural practices and aspects to arise in different and distant human populations. The author (Arthur Morris Jones) of that 'Africa and Indonesia' book was basically grasping desperately for the slightest similarities and using these to infer deeper cultural or historic connections than actually existed.

The article by Blench I've seen and read before and I have to point out that

a) Blench is primarily a linguist, and he is definitely not an expert on the issue of West African art and its origins, the casting techniques used in that art, or the relationship between West African art traditions and the cultures that they are found in. Not surprisingly therefore, he is only putting forward a theory of there being evidence for ancient contact between southeast Asia and West Africa, not claiming that the inspiration of the Ife art is by ancient Indonesian migrations into West Africa.

Now in the part of the paper where he talks about elephantiasis and the supposed depiction of elephantiasis in some of the Nok art (which assumes that the art is depicting a real disease, and is not just deliberate exaggeration for some other reason) as mentioned by Willett in his 1967 book, the mistake there is that Blench's claim is simply incorrect - it is not necessary for the disease to have been transmitted by people migrating into West Africa from Southeast Asia.

First, elephantiasis (swelling and thickening of the lower limbs) can be caused by podoconiosis, which is simply caused by irritant soils in an environment and occurs in other areas of Africa without any interaction with non-Africans and without parasites being involved. In light of this, if one assumes that the figures in the Nok art are real depictions of people with diseased limbs or geni.tals, who is to say that podoconiosis or a similar disease to podoconiosis might not have affected the population in the Nok area, resulting in the depictions of swollen body parts in some of the art?

Second, assuming that there was elephantiasis caused by filariasis (caused by parasites), rather than podoconiasis, in central Nigeria, this disease could simply have reached other parts of Africa (such as East Africa) in ancient times (after those areas had had contact with people from Southeast Asia) and the disease could have been transmitted by migrants or traders from other parts of Africa, not directly from Southeast Asian migrants. The assumption that because there is "no continuous zone of infection from East Africa to West Africa" today it would have to have been transmitted directly from Southeast Asia to West Africa ignores the possibility that there could have been a continuous zone of infection in the past, before later population movements occurred in central Africa, and also ignores the possibility of the spread of the disease by long distance traders or through migrations or back-migrations from Eastern Africa to Western Africa in the past.

And of course, as Blench admits in his paper, the dates of the Nok art are too early to suggest direct Indonesian - Nigerian contact, anyway. So assuming that it was depicted in the Nok art, direct contact is not a good explanation of the elephantiasis.

b) Apart from the "elephantiasis in central Nigeria (the area of the Nok culture)" claim there is nothing else in the rest of Blench's article that could really imply a possible connection of Ife to Indonesia, so it is not necessary to comment on the rest of the article.

c) As I said earlier, the people in the art are clearly black. They don't even look mixed. The only way one could think that they have Asian eyes or "Asian nasal bridges" is if one doesn't know what black people and Indonesians look like, or if one somehow doesn't think that black people can have thin almond shaped eyes. There is nothing about their noses that looks non-black and the eyes don't actually look Asian.

d) When the art of Ife was first "discovered" by Westerners, all sorts of theories were put forward linking the origin of the culture and the art to the ancient Mediterranean. These kinds of claims have long been discredited by later researchers. The new focus of African and non-African people who want to link the origin of the art to another area today is North Africa (which is close to the Mediterranean) and the Middle East, but they aren't having much success. These external origin theories don't really have much going for them.

e) Most importantly, Indonesian art is just nothing like this art (or the Nok art, for that matter). There are basically no similarities.

PAPA AFRICA: what do you think of some who link ile ife and lost wax casting to Indonesians? i think they mostly think so because of the non "negroid" features you find of the brass castings, the asian shaped eyes and the bridge of the noses. i never understood why their features are the way they are though.

Who the hell links this art to Indonesia?

Many books and articles have been published by scholars that have studied the art for over a century. There is no cultural, artistic, historical, geographical, physical or any other kind of connection between this art and Indonesia.

And the people depicted in the art are clearly black. Where's this stuff about "non-negroid" features coming from?

Alyricist★Laura:
^This Guy's a Bit of a Stubborn One.

Well, if you make what it clearer what your disagreement/objection is, then maybe I'll get it. So far, I'm at a loss as to what it is that you disagree with me about.

Alyricist★Laura:



Sir, we made it clear, many post ago that "Strong" is codeword for Defined.

Are you in any way insinuating that you did not understand the Language Of The Writer At This Point?

Or Just Continuing to Argue a Dead Point on a Basis of Not Wanting to Concede?...

I am pretty sure you are a Smart Enough Guy to know that "Strong Jawline" in No Way Meant "Strength"

Ok, so we agree that we have been talking about definition (outline), not strength.

So then why do you still insist that having a protruding jaw somehow implies having a defined jawline when I've explained that "definition" of the jaw is based on the perception of the ramus area of the mandible as being prominent?

I couldn't make sense of what your objection was, so I assumed you really did mean strength.

But to keep things simple:

If you have a protruding jaw and the ramus area of your mandible is very visible/prominent (like Angelina Jolie), people will tend to say you have a strong (defined) jawline.

If you have a protruding jaw and the ramus area of your mandible is not very visible/prominent, people will not tend to say that you have a strong (defined) jawline.

That's all I'm saying. If you agree with that, then we agree completely and that's the end of this discussion.

Alyricist★Laura:



As i have stated, in the original reply.....

The strength of the jaw is not what they meant though. The "definition" of the jaw (based on the prominence/visibility of the ramus area of the mandible) is clearly what they meant.

Are you saying you've never seen images of people who have slightly protruding jaws, but the ramus area of their jaws isn't particularly prominent (like those actresses)?

Royal, if you look at the picture of Angelina Jolie and that other actress that kandiikane posted at the top of p.4, as examples of people with strong jawlines, you'll see that what they mean by "strong jawline" is how really how "defined" or "outlined" the mandible bone looks - because the ramus of the mandible looks very prominent/visible on those actresses. I hope that clears up the confusion. You guys were talking about different things.

Alyricist★Laura:

Answer the Last Line of My Post.

The premises that you're assuming are true are

(a) 'a Strong Jawline is Defined by being "Definitive" '

and

(b) 'the most "Definitive" Trait a jaw can possibly merit' is protrusion.

therefore, a protruding jaw necessarily implies a strong jawline.

But

(a) is not true because as I said above, "strong jawline" was taken to mean how defined (outlined) the actual mandible looks on the face (which would probably depend on how visible/prominent the ramus of the mandible appears) - hence those pictures they posted of white people with strongly outlined (defined) jawlines to support their argument.

(b) is your opinion, and you're certainly welcome to it, but since (a) is false, what anyone thinks is the most 'definitive' trait of a jaw (definition, size, protrusion, etc.) isn't really relevant

Alyricist★Laura:




It's Possible to have a Strong Jawline without a "protruding" jaw. However, If you have a Protruding Jaw, it can not be anything other than Strong.

For Years in the electronic business..for the last 15-18 years....the saying went as...

An Lcd Tv isn't Always an Led Tv.

But, An Led Tv Is Always an Lcd Tv

So if it is at all Possible, Can you please Post a Picture of a Protruding Jaw that isn't considered a "Strong" Jawline

I've never seen such

If Strong Jawline is Defined by being "Definitive" then how can the most "Definitive" Trait a jaw can possibly merit...not be considered strong?..

..............

No a protruding jaw (prognathism) does not necessarily mean that one has a strong jawline. I think that is very obvious, but if it is not obvious to you then clearly we mean completely different things when we write "strong jawline." I think that I (and other posters in this thread) are talking about something like "strong jaw definition" or "greater jawline definition" when we talk about a "strong" jawline whereas you are talking about something entirely different like the size and strength of the actual jaw bones themselves - maybe you're saying that black people have stronger and larger mandibles. I don't know if that's true (don't really care enough to look into it). But the posters who contested your statement about jawlines seem to have been arguing that whites have more strongly defined jawlines.

Anyway, since what it seems they were talking about is jawline definition, not mandible size and strength, I have to say that I haven't seen some overwhelming and rigorous evidence showing that black people have much "sharper" and much more strongly defined jawlines than other groups or vice versa. But if I haven't seen such evidence showing that one group has more strongly defined jawlines it's probably because I haven't looked into this kind of stuff, because I consider it mostly a waste of time.

.

b) Second, there is indisputable evidence that the Benin version of the Agboghidi story was told long before Jacob Egharevba:

"In 1966, I studied the oral tradition of the Edo people of Nigeria in Edo (Benin city) and its rural environs. Among other storytellers whom I talked to, observed and recorded, Iditua of Urhokosa village was a recognized master narrator who told narratives of epical dimension, and whose rendition of two epics, "Agboghidi" and "Odologie", named after their principal figures, I recorded. This was the first time that the story of "Odologie" has ever been brought to the attention of an outsider, and I could surmise that even within Edo society, it is not well known. The hero's name appears in Jacob Egharevba, A Short History of Benin[i] (1934), in a list of princes and princesses who rule the Edo after the death of Ere, the last Ogiso, the first royal dynasty. Otherwise, neither his name nor the stories of his actions recur in tradition. But the story of Agboghidi has had a different literary history. While it has not yet received the recognition it deserves in world literature, it has been textualized twice: the first time as an epic measured in pentameter, so rendered by John Wyndham and published as [i]The Curse of Obo in 1926. Wyndham heard the story from Prince Aiguobasimwin, the eldest son of Oba Ovonramwen, who was deposed and exiled from Benin when the British army destroyed the city in 1897. Prince Aiguobasimwin, later Oba Eweka the second (1914-33), told the story in 1911, before his father's death and his own ascension to the throne, but while he was a warrant chief of Benin. Wyndham puts the story in the mouth of a personified Forest talking to an Englishman. The opening lines are indicative of his literary handiwork:

The Forest of Benin speaks to an Englishman: -
These many evenings, Stranger, I have watched
Your patient quest of dead kings' halls, while I -
My mother-grief still sore - have screened from view
The ravished remnants of a bygone Power (Wyndham 1926: 9.)

The second time the story of Agboghidi appeared in press it was in an adolescent book of folktales prepared by Joseph E. Sidahome, Stories of the Benin Empire (1964), which was published posthumously. Sidahome's brief biographical sketch that appears on the dust jacket recounts a life of an aspiring young man. He was born in Owaha, Ishan, in 1917 and lived with his parents in several Midwestern towns in Nigeria, Ubiaja, Benin City and Ondo." - Dan Ben-Amos, "The narrator as an edtior", from page 282 of the book Textualization of oral epics by Lauri Honko

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=vyfOPBtlz54C&oi=fnd&pg=PA282#v=onepage&q&f=false

The statement about Ere being the last Ogiso is not correct unless one goes by Egharevba's original edition, obviously.

The rest of the statement is relevant because it cannot be claimed that the story told by Oba Eweka II in 1911, when he was a prince, was due to Egharevba. So the claim that Egharevba "made up the Benin story" is rubbish (yet another error from the ogbuefi of propaganda), as the story was an epic long before he published anything. The story cannot have been made up on the spot by Oba Eweka if it inspired an epic from Wyndham but is obviously a piece of tradition from before the fall of Benin.

7.

Now with regard to the Ubulu thing.

a) The date of the Benin-Ubulu conflict is remembered as around 1750, which falls exactly into the time that the Ubulu rebellion was put down by Agboghidi (by the way, the meaning of his "title" (ingrate) actually confirms the Benin story, but I guess you didn't know the meaning).

Oba Akengbuda is remembered as the Oba of Benin that was reigning at that time, and his father, Oba Eresoyen, was so rich that he built a house covered in cowrie shells, so this was not a time that Benin was lacking finances from trade.

Now, Oba Akengbuda is the Oba that initiated the indigenous production of firearms.

So the question remains: if Oba Akengbuda not only had guns from trade during his long reign, but also initiated the indigenous production of firearms, what particular weapon could have been used to stop him by less militarily equipped groups, if he had waged war with them? Guns did not factor heavily into Benin's military except in a few instances, but if they had felt that there was a real challenge, Benin would certainly have had the tools (guns) to accomplish their objective of suppressing a rebellion.

I doubt very much that an Oba who reigned for a very long time (several decades), and whose reign is remembered very favorably, and who had access to guns from both external trade and internal manufacture, had his soldiers defeated by eight men or was forced to sign some peace treaty with a poorer (i.e., less resources available) kingdom.

Thanks for the correction on the meaning of the Igbo word "ali" but I disagree completely with the statement about Oza nogogo and Anioma. All I see coming from Oza nogogo are a legion of complaints. Virtually every site on Oza nogogo that you can find has some complaint about marginalization by their Ika neighbors and a desire to be reunited with the Oza community in Edo state and also, usually a (contrasting) emphasis on their Benin, non-Igbo origins. This is why I asked what people who had been there and knew the area thought about the claims made online - because the statements from actual Oza nogogo people online were painting a pretty bad picture and they seemed very unhappy with their situation. Instead of any direct comment on the claims and accusations, I was presented with an allegation that it was all one big conspiracy to wrest mineral royalties in Oza nogogo from the Agbor kingdom and give the royalties to the Oza nogogo people. Even if such a claim were true (and given the nature of the specific complaints I'm extremely skeptical of the claim that it's really all about mineral royalties) there's not even anything wrong with those mineral royalties going directly to Oza nogogo anyway.

And their names and everything about them (except for one or two titles) is all Bini, so I don't see why they (Ikas of Agbor) insist on holding on to them but simultaneously criticize any other kingdom as expansionist.

Ogbuefi 1: @Physics MHD,

1)On a different court for Ozanogogo does not translate to a different clan nor transfer to Benin kingdom, I will therefore advice you read the remarks without any bias.One of the reasons given by the Ozas was language and distance and this was justified and even supported by many Agbor who simultaneously recommended that such courts should as well be established in the peripheral towns such as Oza, Emuhu and Oki.I was challenge you to provide one single document when all Oza people were together under one Akugbe native authority(not district) of Benin.It was never the case.Igbanke along with other Ika clans were even part of the old Benin district ( except you are saying that all Ika clans should be transferred back to Benin).Who ever gave that account does not even know what he is saying.
Now on the issue of Ikaworld.com, let me put it this way, The claim that the Ika(Anioma) market days are different from Edo market days is wrong and I think the author of that account got it all wrong.The Anioma and Edo people call the market days similarly and ascribe to them different purposes which as well shows some similarities.The author of that may not personally understand why Ozarra came to be where they are at present.Or I would say he would want Ika land to be described as a homogenous unit but this has never been the situation in Aniomaland.Our people are of diversed origin and in some other clans like Ebu and Ugbodu we still hear some other dialects such as Yoruba and Igala.What however unites us is our history , customs/civilization and identity.There are of course a few voices of dissent but I bet you if a referendum is conducted in Ozarra today, most would want to remain in Agbor and those who would want to join Benin will do so because they want to identify with their Oza Aibiokunla kith and kin and not because they see their lands as part of the domain of the Oba nor do they wholly identify themselves as mainstream Benin People.
If I should follow , your line of arguement then I will be like many Anioma people be willing to give up Ozarra in replacement of Igbanke, and other Ika communities in Beninlands like Iru, Igbogiri and Owa Iriuzor(renamed Evbo Obanosa).

1. "Transfer to Benin Kingdom"?

I have seen their personal names, the names of the different quarters of Oga nogogo, the names for priests, the names of people in their history, etc. and it is all Bini. All of it. I'm willing to bet that if I heard them speaking I would hear mostly Edo (though obviously somewhat different), with some Igbo spliced in here and there. Now, who is talking about a transfer to Benin kingdom? Some Bini places like Egor have traditional rulers that claim to be their own kingdoms and not truly under the Oba of Benin, so how does me stating that the Oza-nogogo are Edo, and not Ika, and are only under Agbor through colonial poltics equate to claiming that they should be "transferred to Benin kingdom"? I said that going by your argument in this thread that Igbanke should be transferred to Anioma and that they are being held against their will chiefly through the moves of the Benin Palace, then they (Oza nogogo) should be in Edo state because they are in fact an Edo group, no matter how many Oza nogogo titles you try to connect to Agbor.You keep talking about the "domain of the Oba" and "mainstream" Benin people, but that's not even connected to this discussion, and you have yet to explain why the domain of the Agbor kingdom should extend into Oza nogogo when the Ika people of Agbor and the Edo people of Oza nogogo are ethnically different even though that is your entire argument for your accusation against the Benin palace not being able to claim the Igbanke as being Edo.


2. You talk about voting to stay under Agbor kingdom, but I have provided at least two sources, in an earlier post in which actual people from Oza nogogo listed specific grievances that they had against their neighbors and the way they feel that they have been treated all those years. I asked for clarification from anybody about whether these claims of marginalization were in any way reasonable, but you dodged that question like a trained politician although you clearly read that post. Nobody has been able to answer whether the accusations of some Oza nogogo people about marginalization are indeed true, despite all the time that has elapsed since I first posted that claim. Meanwhile, all this time people were talking about deliberate marginalization of Igbanke or Ekpon without ever stating what they thought this marginalization really was. Maybe instead of claiming that the Oza nogogo people are so naturally desirous to be under Agbor kingdom, you should tell your leaders, elected officials, government, etc., to refute those accusations that are incorrect and to meet the needs of their community and address those accusations that are correct. The best you could do was to claim that they want some minerals, yet there was no complaint about resource control from them, rather they were concerned about development in their community. There are not that many Oza nogogo websites online, nor are there many books or articles about this group. If in every single article online, one reads some sort of grumbling against their Ika neighbors over alleged marginalization, then how am I supposed to believe this claim about some sort of overwhelming desire to be part of Agbor?


3. As for ikaworld.com I do not care about any comments about market days. I know that the Edo market days and the Igbo market days are the same. I posted that to show that even other Ika people were reasonable enough to see that a group that shows such clear signs of "Bininess" are of Edo origin without engaging in irrelevant claims about some Ogisi title (which even sounds like it has an Edoid origin, by the way, but that's another topic entirely). My point is that some of your own people are not necessarily agreeing with you, perhaps because they are not expansionists.

4. Why do you insist on calling Oza nogogo by the name Ozarra?

5. What is all this talk about heterogeneity?

Your very argument hinges on the claim that the ethnic difference between Igbanke and Binis means that Igbanke should not be part of Benin kingdom but should be with their kith and kin!

Meanwhile you somehow don't see why the Oza nogogo people should not be under Agbor, which is not composed of their kith and kin.


6. And I am following your line of argument, by the way. It's just that you seem unwilling (for whatever reason) to extend your reasoning to its logical conclusion - that every Edo speaking community (not just Oza nogogo) in Anioma should be "transferred" to Edo state. You also mentioned the Edo speaking community of Alilehan in one of you posts that did not show and you claimed that "Ali" was an Igbo prefix meaning "land of". Yet you could not translate the rest. Why is that? Maybe because the name is like Greek to you? For the record "Ala" rather than "Ali" seems to be the Igbo prefix meaning "land of" and Alilehan is undoubtedly Edo. Alile is an Edo word for a very strong cord found in the forest that cannot be cut - that is the literal meaning but the real meaning is a person (or community, in this instance) with very strong character. But I think that name (Alilehan) matches up better and more perfectly with the Bini name Aileleihan, meaning one who refuses to take the wrong way. It's a shame that you want to claim these communities for the Ika but you and other Ika people are completely confused by even their names. Yes I would have no problem with doing an exchange of communities if it would stop all this whining and propaganda but I know that that is not necessarily feasible.


7. I did not continue that Ekpon debate with you after my response didn't show up, but for the record, I have looked around and Esan people are still definitely claiming Ekpon in every publication from Esan people that lists the Esan subgroups.

I have to ask, do Esan people have any idea what Ika culture is, social aspects or otherwise, for them to be able to tell that this is a separate group, not a subgroup of their people?

The truth is that from sources that I have read, the Esan considered Ekpon to be just another branch of the Esan, so if this makes them expansionists, then they've been misled by the cultural adoption frmo that group (Ekpon). It does not mean that they're trying to steal Ekpon from a group whose culture they are not experts on.

They would assume the Ekpon were Esan for the exact same reasons that you can tell that they aren't Esan but rather Ika: language and culture.

This is an interesting post on some Ekpon man (who, for whatever reason, called himself Idemudia) and because of how he had presented himself, even an Igbo man (Chxta) originally thought he was Bini! :

http://chxta..com/2009/02/death-of-language.html


You say "the old Esan dialect is practically dead" (and that article written by that Ekpon guy in that link above confirms this claim) and that "Ekpon has become more Ikanized"

How on earth is it the fault of the Esan if they considered a language (the old Ekpon language that is near death) that could be considered a dialect of Esan to be evidence that these people (Ekpon) were an Esan speaking people?!!

Or were the Esan supposed to identify every cultural and linguistic aspect of Ekpon that was different as Ika (a culture and language they are not experts on), when, even within Esan, there are different dialects?

Any sort of propaganda that leads to some conclusion like "the Esan are oppressive expansionists" needs to be reworked immediately.

If these people are serious about being Igbo, they will just learn Igbo (real Igbo), stop using Edo or Esan words, customs, names, etc. and nobody will confuse them with anybody else. You cannot be in limbo between two ethnic groups, culturally and then declare that you are really only based in one group.


Also, this same dispute exists in Rivers state with some group that is considered by some Ijaws to be a group of Ijaw people with Igbo influence being called Igbo by Igbos, because of such enormously prevalent signs of Igbo culture and language among them. So the case of Edos identifying people with Edo culture as Edo is not unique to so called Bini or Esan expansionists. Whether those groups in Rivers state are Ijaw with Igbo influence or Igbo with Ijaw influence is a whole other issue (it seems that they're a basically a real ethinc mix, from what I've read), but either the Igbo or the Ijaw would be engaged in "annexation" attempts according to you, just because they rightly see elements of their own language and culture in those groups.

Thanks for the clarification lakal, step1, and Negro_Ntns.

Well, the spambot got that very long response. No surprise there.




@ Yoruba speakers, could you explain something to me


How can "Olueko of Eko" be the traditional Yoruba title of the Oba of Lagos if he has a unique title for his throne?


a) Doesn't "Olueko" (Eleko) literally mean king/ruler of Eko? In that case, "Olueko of Eko" would mean King of Eko of Eko? Well if it is indeed Eleko of Eko (which still means ruler of eko of eko), then he does not have a unique title for his throne. It would seem that exotik was right. There is nothing unique about the Oba of Lagos's title because it literally means ruler of Eko (Lagos). This is no different than the Oba of Benin meaning the king of Benin or the Olu of Warri meaning the king of Warri. I don't think that Olueko or Eleko is a unique title.

b)  What is the difference between Olu and Oba as far as speakers of the Yoruba language are concerned?

"Hip mask worn with court dress, owned by the current Chief Ineh of Igun. Brass, 16.5cm (6.5". Only three hip masks of this design are known; the other two are in the British Museum."

Bird of prophecy. Brass, approx. 33cm (13".

Court Official Nigeria, Kingdom of Benin, Edo People, 16th-17th century, Largest

2)On the issue of slavery, You are just trying to be diplomatic abt that fact.Edo was a slave in the palace.There was nothing like servants like we have it today.OK, he was a servant , so what was his roots, to which family in Benin did he belong because every Edo man belongs to a family as reflected in their morning greetings, You belong to one.Which of these did the palace servant EDO hail from ? You have displayed much here and I am expecting an answer.Methinks , he was a slave , though for ethnic pride which is the feature of every Edo native has blinded you from seeing the fact.

I don't think Egharevba, or anybody else for that matter, would have known what specific family he hailed from in the 15th century, unless he was the founder of that family, considering that his role, although heroic, was brief and limited. He was just a guy named Edo and since he didn't found an historically important family, there is little reason for Egharevba to know what family he came from.

It seems the truth is that only certain men could be called  one of the slaves of the king (ovien oba).

You claim that there were no servants there but those who have taken the time to find out from Binis in earlier times made observations that strongly disagree with everything that you're saying:

"These criteria of extreme patrimonialism were fully realized in the Benin ideology of kingship, but each was countered by an opposite principle. 'The Oba owns the land' (Oba nya oto) was no shibboleth; he appointed an official to regulate its distribution and also a band of 'surveyors' to show people their boundaries. Yet the land belonged to ward and village communities and was administered by their elders (Bradbury 1957: 76). As Dapper rightly reported in 1668, 'all the Benin people, high and low, are bound to acknowledge themselves to be the slaves of the king' (cited in Ling Roth 1903: 91); but Nyendael was no less accurate when, in 1701, he wrote: 'All male slaves here are foreigners; for the natives cannot be sold for slaves, but all are free, and alone bear the name of the king's slaves' (Bosman 1967: 402). In fact only freeborn Edo had the right to be branded with the facial and body markings which distinguished 'the Oba's slaves' (evien-Oba) from 'real slaves', that is the slaves of (ordinary) 'people' (evien-onbhan) and the private slaves of the reigning incumbent (evien-Omo)." - R.E. Bradbury, "Patrimonialism and Gerontocracy in Benin"



http://books.google.com/books?id=QPsNAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA21


"The Oba's palace retainers were divided into three major segments among which were distributed the menial, craft, administrative, and ceremonial functions necessary to maintain his household and his royal dignity. Briefly, the Iwebo had charge of royal regalia, the Iweguae supplied the Oba's servants and attendants, and the Ibiwe-Eruerie were responsible for the discipline and welfare of his wives and children. These retainer associations were also the main instrument for the recruitment and training of governmental personnel for the execution of the Oba's civil and ritual authority throughout his domains." - R.E. Bradbury, "Patrimonialism and Gerontocracy in Benin"


"Recruitment into retainer service was open to all male free-born commoners. Indeed, in principle, every ovien-Oba was by paternal filiation a member of one of the retainer divisions. However, unless he was formally initiated into his association ('entered the palace') his membership of it remained purely nominal, affording him no access to its apartments in the palace or to its revenue or deliberations. Since Benin villages were made up of a number of patrilineal groupings of disparate origins, each village contained members of all the palace associations." - R.E. Bradbury, "Patrimonialism and Gerontocracy in Benin"


http://books.google.com/books?id=QPsNAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA22

There were even "slaves" of the Uzama that were also of free-born origin:

'Literally, "slaves of Ezomo". The free-born Bini describes himself as ovien-oba (the oba's slave) as a way  of expressing his loyalty. The point Bradbury makes here is that in the Uzama territories, the free borns refer to themselves not as evien-oba but as evien of the respective uzama chiefs.' - Foundations of Nigerian Federalism: Pre-colonial antecedents, p. 256


http://books.google.com/books?id=3JIHAQAAMAAJ&q=ovien+oba&dq=ovien+oba&hl=en&ei=rXztTbj3C-XM0AHF4YTDAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBg

And it turns out that the privilege of being one of the ovien-Oba, as noted by Nyendael in 1701, and as told to Bradbury in the 50s, is known up to this day:

"Her rights and status then are contingent upon the holistic categorization of her person as a unit of being who procure life and therefore the instrument for human propagation, she should ,therefore, be placed in a protective sector where her beings would be valued, appreciated and adequately nourished. That is why some times WOMAN in Benin would say that “Okhuo ere ovionba”. Meaning, women are not slave of the Oba but citizens, while the men are the Ovien-Oba who can be summoned to undertake tasks as the Oba may desire from time to time.

For purposes of correction, the term OVIEN OBA” does not mean Slave as the word connotes. It means Subject. Every person under the Kingdom is a citizen. Subject to the Overlord of the Oba." - Chief Nosakhare Isekhure (the Isekhure of Benin), "The Law And Gender Sensitivity" (part 1)

http://www.edoworld.net/The_Law_And_Gender_Sensitivity.html

This shows a consistency on this matter of "slaves" of the Oba that has existed for centuries.

From what Bradbury found out regarding the distinction between "slaves" of royalty and nobility and ordinary slaves, I would strongly disagree with the idea that this "slave" named Edo, if he did indeed exist, would have been what you were trying to portray him as. This "slave" named Edo, if he actually existed, would have held a high position in society.

You are welcome to your own conclusions. But I would say that those sites and sources that have described him as a servant were more accurate and are not merely being diplomatic.

1)I am beginning to like Physics MHD, He is a brilliant chap, First of all the absence from this post was unplanned.I was engaged with other issues.Good, for reading the UNDP report on the Niger Delta.I find it funny to make quotes from the publication, I made references to in the first instance, I have read it thoroughly, The primary reason for the response that Edo is poor is when you came up with the story of a "paradise" which is insultive to me and the entire Anioma people.I also hoped you saw from the statistics attested by the United Nations that the Human Development Index of Aniomaland is ahead of Beninland despite the fact that Benin has a larger urban population which should have been a justification for a better performance.I need to remind you that Delta was ranked first and Aniomaland lead the state in all parameters considered.

a) the HDI of Aniomaland alone is not necessarily represented in the report because the HDI of nearly 70% of a different population in Delta state is also being used, although rather indirectly. Whether it would be higher or lower without the HDI of the other, non-Anioma areas is another issue, but it's clear that the Delta statistics can't be used to draw conclusions about Aniomaland alone.


In fact, although they did rate several Anioma LGAs as being among the LGAs with the highest HDI scores in the Niger Delta, this is what they also wrote (I don't know if you missed it):

"Across Nigeria, no local data on GDP per
capita exist because local contributions to
GDP have never been measured, although
this issue is currently being addressed. GDP
per capita has instead been calculated as
the internally generated revenue of local
governments per capita. This serves as a
proxy for measuring local economic activities.
Some reservations crop up in using
this calculation to measure GDP, however,
because it often does not reflect the
real lives of local people or local economic
potentials, given the high levels of both
misappropriated funds and tax evasion.
To calculate the human development indices
for this report, the missing data were
interpolated using standard spatial interpolation
techniques. In some cases, state
scores were used as benchmarks and local
scores were derived by weighting the state
score with the overall local scores on the
indicators with available data." - p. 61


"The HDI for Local Government
Areas
Local HDIs are comparatively lower than
state rankings. This is partly a result of
using internally generated revenue as a
surrogate for GDP in the calculation of
the HDI. But the HDI values are still useful
in showing the variations in human
development across each state." - p. 61


So the data for HDI for LGAs ignores local GDP and only uses IGR per capita, plus some additional estimates based on the state's scores, to create other data.

And if you look carefully through the "GDP index" for LGAs for each state in  Table A2.1 of Appendix 1, you will notice that


- Ughelli North is claimed to have a GDP index of 0. Ughelli South is claimed to have a GDP index of 0.674

- Etsako Central LGA in Edo state, is claimed to have a GDP index of 0.  Etsako West has a GDP index of 0.279.

- Four of the LGAs in Ondo are claimed to have a GDP index of 0.

- Three LGAs in Akwa Ibom are claimed to have a GDP index of 0.

- Almost every single LGA in  Delta state is claimed to have a higher GDP index than almost every single LGA in every other Niger Delta state. That is to say, you could pick out almost any LGA in Delta state completely at random and the UN Niger Delta report would claim that it has a higher "GDP index" than:

Oredo LGA in Edo state and any other LGAs in Edo state

Aba North LGA in Abia state (which is where Aba is centered at, I presume) and any other LGAs the city of Aba covers

Uyo LGA in Akwa Ibom and any of the other LGAs of the city of Uyo.

Akure south LGA in Ondo state

the LGA in Cross River that the city of Calabar is centered around

the LGAs in Imo state that the city of Owerri covers

and so on. . .

Do you have an explanation for the zeros for "GDP index" for some LGAs? Obviously they rounded them down to zero because the number was negligibly small, but why are certain LGAs immediately around them slightly higher or much higher? Look through all the LGAs with a GDP index of zero and explain to me what the problem is in those LGAs that their immediate neighbor LGAs are not facing.

Do you have an explanation for how almost every LGA in Delta state is claimed to have a much higher "GDP index" than almost every LGA in every other state in the Niger Delta, including those LGAs of capital cities?


b) The report claimed (on p. 54) that Edo state had the 2nd highest HDI in the Niger Delta, and that Delta was ahead of it by 0.018. So this HDI statistic actually does not support any assertion about there being some overwhelming difference in development - whether due to "wickedness" of Binis or other factors.

There also seems to be a contradiction between Edo state trailing Delta state by so little in HDI, but the HDIs of the LGAs of Edo state trailing the HDIs of the LGAs of Delta state by so much. And it is also the case that the HDI values for the LGAs of Edo state vs. the HDI values for the LGAs of states which rank lower in HDI than Edo state don't match up well with the claim that Edo state has a higher HDI than these states.  Perhaps you could explain this. It seems that there are multiple contradictions in the data.


c) Given that Delta state's allocation is much greater than that of Edo state (see chart 2.5, p. 62), but it does not have even twice the population of Edo state, it's surprising that there wasn't a much greater difference in the HDI claimed for the two states or that Edo (the state with the lowest allocation out of those considered Niger Delta states in this report) was claimed to be second behind Delta in HDI.

d) The report also claims with regard to HPI: "The best performing states in the Niger
Delta are Delta at 22.4 per cent and Edo at 23.4 per cent." (p. 57)

So even this 2005 statistic says that Delta is only a slightly ahead of Edo state with regard to "human poverty index"

e) However, on p. 45 on table 2.4 it claims Edo state has a slightly lower percent poverty level than Delta

f) And on p. 35, table 2.1 explicitly says with regard to "poverty incidence": 2004:  Delta: 45.35
                                                            Edo:   33.09



So "human poverty index", "poverty level" and "poverty incidence" don't seem to agree with each other, but it has Edo faring better than Delta for two of these statistics., while faring slightly worse for a third.



And what I really noticed about the HDI calculated was:


1. "The well-known limitations of the HDI in
the region have to be borne in mind. For
instance, the data on income used to compute
the per capita GDP component include
oil revenue, much of which is not
retained within the Niger Delta region. The
HDI also does not adequately capture severe
environmental degradation and poor
infrastructural provision because of the
nature of its measurement parameters. The
Niger Delta states do rank relatively high
on the HDI indicators of life expectancy,
knowledge and GDP per capita values.
Unfortunately, these do not include the
items the states badly need, such as roads,
water, electricity, appropriate waste management
and so on. There is a sharp contrast
between the quantitative indicators
and the real quality of life of the people
in the region. It is necessary to look beyond
the HDI for an effective assessment
of the problems of the Niger Delta." - p. 56


2. "Most indicators used
to compute the HDI
do not include the
items that the Niger
Delta states badly
need, such as roads,
water, electricity and
appropriate waste
management, among
others." - p. 49



3. "The report discovers that most of
the best performing local government areas
on the HDI are the urban ones, while
the majority of the poorly performing
ones are those based in rural areas. The
local government areas without oil facilities
appear to fare better on the poverty
index than those with oil facilities; an indication
of unequal distribution of oil revenues.
The poor outcomes of development
interventions of oil companies are,
to some extent, due to lack of a systematic
link to government development plans.
The delta.s appalling human development
situation cannot be completely captured
by the HDI, as some essential issues in
the region are not reflected in the computation
of the index, such as the dire state
of infrastructure. The lack of data also
distorts the calculation of the index to
some extent. Nevertheless, available data
point to the fact that the region is not faring
well. The poor marks suggest the delta
may struggle to achieve the MDGs. It is
only close in one area.school enrollment
and is not likely to meet the other
goals by the target date of 2015 or anytime
soon after." - p. 2




4. "In interpreting the results, it is important
to note that the human development situation
in Nigeria as a whole is deplorable.
The use of relative terms better, higher,
worse and lower should not be misconstrued.
The mere fact that a region, state
or local government has a higher score on
an index than another does not necessarily
mean that the human development situation
in that region, state or locality is good.
As will be clear in subsequent sections of
this report, the HDI for the Niger Delta
region as a whole is unacceptable considering
that it has produced the wealth fuelling
development in other parts of the
country." - p. 50






As for the lack of development in many parts of the Bini areas of Edo state, that seems to have to do with most governors of the state (including the current one, who is not Bini) concentrating much of the development for Edo south in Benin city and the drain that the city has on other areas. The Niger Delta report even agrees with that idea, so the fact that a group has one larger urban area does not mean that other areas would necessarily be faring well without additional money.

@Physics HD, I am absolutely sure that  Uyilawa  Usuanlele and Toyin Falola where present in the Oba of Benin palace in 1933  when the bbok was first published and you were there when Egharevba revised his books severally eventhough the points made were not even tampered at all that the name EDO was derived from a slave (promoted of recent to a servant)

It would appear that you have not actually read the article. What is stated in there about advised corrections is actually from quotes directly from Egharevba's preface to the book. And your mention of 1933 and the version approved by Oba Eweka II is erroneous. The earliest version (the Edo language manuscript) did not contain any mention of such things as a "slave" named Edo. My point, which you did not seem to get, and which that article partially addresses, is that Egharevba added some things and removed some things as he went along throughout the 4 versions of the book and that some versions even blatantly contradict each other. The "slave named Edo" claim comes from a 1954 book by Egharevba called The Origin of Benin, and this story was later incorporated into the third edition and also the fourth edition, the 1968 version of A Short History of Benin, for which he was awarded his doctorate by the University of Ibadan. The 1954 book (The Origin of Benin) was not looked over by the Oba of Benin, and the Oba of Benin did not scrutinize every one of the various, and sometimes contradictory additions to A Short History of Benin. The second edition of A Short History of Benin, which precedes the book The Origin of Benin, is the version that was looked over by Oba Akenzua II and the approval of this second edition is included in the preface to the third and fourth editions, which contain fewer alterations than between the first and second edition.

It should also be noted that Egharevba's statements about Ewuare contain the most alterations and contradictions between editions (see Stefan Eisenhofer's article on the origin of Benin kingship in the works of Jacob Egharevba) of any part of his history.

My overall point, is that Egharevba is not necessarily gospel on every part of Benin history. On the issue of someone being called a slave, every man in Benin was called a slave of the Oba:

""When a male infant is born it is presented to the king, as properly and of right
belonging to him, and hence all the males of the land are called the king's slaves ; but
the females belong to the father, and live at home as long as he likes, till they are of
age, after which he marries them when and to whom he pleases " (David van Nyendael, 1701)

So this issue of him being called a slave is still being misconstrued by you in my opinion. Any ordinary man being called a king's slave is another issue, and as I noted earlier, a palace servant ("slave" was likely to be a warrior or a chief's son; for him to be called a slave by Egharevba or remembered as such by others, means nothing, since any ordinary, non-titled man was a "slave" of the king, anyway.

Now on the Talbot issue, I read the book from a library not my copy and I took note of what was relevant.I even thought the writer was a woman.Of course I would not have taken notice of the story of human sacrifice being over-emphasized in the book because really it is a little too late to convince anyone except for Benin irrendentists like yourself.There are legion of documents to prove the city of Benin is a city of blood .I asked this question before why is Benin sparsely populated ? Enough mindless killings in the past.And neophytes like you think you can change what the entire planet had known for generations, You an stick to a book written in 1926 why I will stand by eye-witness accounts by explorers to the City.If Benin had been praised as a city flowing perhaps with gold in the centuries past and Talbot had denied it, it is the likes of you that will brand the writer as attempting to give such a peaceful people a bad name.

I had referred you to quotes from earlier explorers mentioned in that article, but you choose to harp on Talbot and Bradbury's analysis.

It is noted by European visitors from the 1700s (Nyendael, among others) that there was a massive civil war in the 1700s that ruined the city to a large extent and left it depopulated and that there was a war which had been going on for decades in the 1800s that left the city further depopulated. This claim of yours about human sacrifice depopulating the city, apart from not being very logical, is entirely of your own creation because you had not bothered to read up on the city's history.

It was also dishonest of you to suggest that one of the wives of Oba Eweka II (the woman named Iyare), whose lover was an Urhobo policeman, was used for human sacrifice by Oba Eweka II, when you knew very well that those were rumors/accusations bandied as beer parlour talk until she was found in Effurun, unharmed.



On human sacrifice in Benin:

'Capt. John Adams writing previous to 1823 says : " Human sacrifices are not so frequent here as in
some parts of Africa ' - H. Ling Roth

"In Benin itself
the usual ceremonies went on, but I was told with fewer victims than in Adola's time.
The King himself told me he was sick of it all, but that he could not discontinue
the customs of his ancestors." - Cyril Punch, 1890


"I do not think that the completion of the compound was part of the rites done
by the king in attaining his throne. It was more than a year after Adola's death and
Adubowa was full king, yet the compound was not finished. Whether this was so or
not, it was obligatory on the king to ' make his father,' and again there were
sacrifices, and every year afterwards ; a king would also make sacrifices in the
compounds of other dead kings. I should say the actual number of victims has been
exaggerated." -Cyril Punch, 1890


Now who else performed occasional sacrifices?:

"Ibo, better Aboh.—I satisfied my own mind as to the correctness of several things which I long before learned, respecting some of the superstitions of the Ibo people. It appears but too true that human sacrifices are offered by them, and that in the most barbarous manner. The poor devoted victim is tied by his legs and dragged from place to place till he expires, and when dead he is cast in the sea. Infanticide is likewise committed, and is of a peculiar kind; the origin or cause of it I could never ascertain. Twins are never allowed to live; as soon as they are born they are put into two earthen pots, and exposed in the forest. The unfortunate mother is ever afterwards exposed to great troubles and hardships; a small hut is built for her in the bush, where she has to submit to many ceremonies for her purification, and remains separated from society for a considerable time. Her conjugal connexion with her husband is for ever dissolved, and she is never after permitted to sit down with other women, in the same market or in the same house. To give birth to twins is therefore justly considered the greafest misfortune which can befal a woman. If a child happens to cut his top teeth first, the poor creature is likewise killed; it is considered to indicate that the child would be a very wicked person in after life if it were allowed to live. " - Rev. Mr. Schon's Notes. Encl. P. in Captain Trotter's Report, Parliamentary papers, Volume 48, Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons, 1843



'Cole (Life in the Niger, Lond. 1862, p. 13) says an albino is killed at any peace ceremony at Aboh'.- H. Ling Roth, Great Benin


"4. Human sacrifices are carried on to a large extent at Aboh; see Inclosure, copy of a statement made by Mr.Cole, the Agent at the Aboh factory. Three slaves also took refuge on board this ship, stating that a priest had ordered a sacrifice of 5 slaves; two had been killed, and the 3 in question hearing they were to be the next victims, made their escape in the night." - Sholto Douglas, British and foreign state papers, Volume 52,Great Britain. Foreign and Commonwealth Office, 1868

"(Inclosure 5) - Statement made by Mr. Cole, Agent in charge of the late factory at Aboh.

(Extract.)
I may as well add for your consideration a specimen of Ajie's brutality. One day (the precise date I do not remember) Ajie seized upon one of his slaves, and after torturing him for some hours, put him to death in the most barbarous and disgusting manner. He then set the corpse in front of my factory as a further proof (for I have had many) of his bloodthirsty propensities. The next morning Ajie sent his son under an escort to ask me what I thought of his power. A longer description I am not capable of giving, for the murder was perpetrated with the greatest obscenity and barbarity" - William Cole, British and foreign state papers, Volume 52, Great Britain. Foreign and Commonwealth Office, 1868


"6.Onitsha - No Treaty has been signed by this town, but I think it was as well to state that on the crowning of a new King as many as 60 human beings are sacrificed. The spot was pointed out to me by one of the natives, who volunteered the statement, which I believe was correct" - Sholto Douglas, British and foreign state papers, Volume 52, Great Britain. Foreign and Commonwealth Office, 1868


'Of Bonny burial, Adams writes (p. 139), " Human sacrifices are common. Where a chief dies, many of his wives are destroyed and interred with him." ' - H. Ling Roth, Great Benin

'Human sacrifice became more frequent. "What harm is there in sacrificing slaves?" asked some Igbuzo men of Father Carlo Zappa of the Society of African Missions. (1902)' - Suzanne Miers, Richard L. Roberts, The End of slavery in Africa, p. 443

"In 1879, an Asaba based missionary wrote

The power of life and death over the slaves is in the hands of the masters, as allowed by the custom of the country; the number of slaves destroyed annually in sacrifices to the gods, to ratify the investiture of a new office, or to accompany any dead of importance as servants into the world of spirits, is really appalling. (Church Missionary Intelligencer 1879: 239)" - Suzanne Miers, Richard L. Roberts, The End of slavery in Africa, p. 444   


So I don't know why you're harping on Benin. If I were to list all of the human sacrifice practiced throughout other parts (not all) of Nigeria, besides Benin, it would shock an Aztec, but I don't mean to divert the thread.

Now, you have accepted that Urhonigbe the largest of all Benin settlements is backward .I am curious the town is also very dirty. As an authority in the authentic custom and history of the Benin , you can give me a clue.I find this very funny when a town of such size is under developed.this is not the feature of Aniomaland.For the smaller villages of whom most of which are virtually empty, it is even a sadder case.These towns have suffered so much neglect yet the Benins have held power for so long with the likes of Ogbemudia, Odigie-Oyegun and Lucky Igbinedion.It could not have been that the state is poor , it is not that poor , so what happened ? Why is Beninland so backward ? As a city boy I am very sure you have never visited any village in the country side try and do it.I am no longer insisting on Urhonigbe.

I actually "accepted that it was backward" the minute the town was mentioned, so I don't know why you're trying to make it seem as though there was any denial about that.


The circumstances of the neglect and erosion that have made Urhonigbe backward are elucidated clearly in that article I referred you to earlier.

As for the several other poor, backward and undeveloped Bini villages, I don't see it from an ethnic perspective.


"All of these
factors point to large settlements, which are
universally accepted as engines of human
and economic development (see Abumere
2000 2004; Mabogunje 1965).
Unfortunately, this phenomenon has often
fostered inequality in development between
urban and rural areas. This is especially true
in Nigeria, where many of the cities are
parasites that absorb resources without
spreading development to surrounding rural
areas. In particular, large settlements with
populations of 20,000 or more are few in
the Niger Delta (see table 1.1). Only Delta,
Rivers, Ondo, Abia and Edo States have
reasonable numbers of such settlements." - UN Niger Delta Human Development Report, p. 23




Some people make the same complaints about only capital cities of other states being developed rather than the entire state by certain governors.


I did not state that Edo was a poor state. My point about less resources was that Edo state produces 1% of Nigeria's oil, while another state, like Delta state, for example, produces 30% and that the allocations are proportional. So Edo would have less to work with to begin with.


"The local economy is extremely dependent on oil
production, with the State's share of statutory allocated
revenue largely derived from oil revenue accrued to the
Federal Government. In addition, given the fact that only
around 11 % of revenue is generated internally,
Delta State's dependence on its statutory allocation is of
concern. As such, if oil production were disrupted,
especially for extended periods, this could have a negative
impact on the State's underlying revenue base."

(GLOBAL CREDIT RATING CO. - Delta State)

http://www.deltastate.gov.ng/GCR%20for%20Delta%20State.pdf

"Your hate should not let it consume you" Thank you very much for the advice but I dont need it.I dont hate people to start with , I am just rearranging the arsenal of bad language you think you have the sole proprietorship of .

How can I hate Benin or Edo people ? My maternal great grand mother hailed from Ewohimi in Edo state and she was amonst the first Christain converts in my home town, Igbodo.My people had to fight to have her buried in ny town because the Esan people had demanded that her body be brought back for burial.

How is claiming that your great grandmother is from Esanland evidence that you cannot hate Binis? This does not make any sense. Please, take this story somewhere else.

It is the wicked reaction of the events of the 1967 Benin systematic killings that is being condemned as wicked because that is exactly wht it is.If you like try and be a little more diplomatic over it.

You would recall that both you and omonuan said the Benins are wicked.

I also did not refer only to the Asaba killings. Ohaneze brought a claim of 8000 killed in the Midwest, but you told me 40,000 (in one of your banned posts). Now why was I going to believe you about all of your other claims?

The issue of the 1967 killings is the claim that "many" Benin people were involved. This might not have occurred to you, but it is actually known, to within a reasonable uncertainty, what the population of Benin city was at that time. So when you start to argue that "many" Benins or "the people of Benin" or that a significant fraction of the populace were responsible, you don't really seem to understand the number of people you are claiming was involved. I did not accept such a statement because it is not accurate. That's all. When bringing a grievance, you should make a distinction between bringing a grievance against a certain ethnicity and bringing a grievance against certain people. I am not sure that diplomacy was in your thinking here.

I will continue to tell you that I don't have anything against the Anioma, nor am I trying to insult them, contrary to what you might believe, but I would not turn a blind eye to an insult anymore than you would.

So the Afenmesan issue is just politics , then why did your Oba had to go to the extent of putting on the Ododo robes to "place a curse" on Alli.That was when the crack between the Benin and Esan was created.

Please, tell me honestly, did Professor Ambrose Alli not win in every Bini area in 1979 when he was elected?

The issue is politics. Edo North does not feel it has enough LGAs or enough political power and the push for Afenmesan state is certainly not unreasonable given this reality. But there are multiple sides to every story:

http://www.nigerdeltacongress.com/rarticles/re_the_making_of_the_edo_nation.htm ("Re: The making of the Edo nation" by Uyi Ikponmwen)

http://news.biafranigeriaworld.com/archive/2004/dec/01/027.html ("Re: Who Governs Edo State in 2007? Why unity should override other considerations" by Prince Edun Akenzua)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Naija-news/message/3514 ("On who rules Edo State in 2007" by Prince Edun Akenzua)

http://www.punchng.com/Articl.aspx?theartic=Art20080324411264

The issue with Alli seemed to mostly be about politics, but as for the issue of the dispute between the Ijaws and the Benin palace, I have seen some of the Ijaw claims being made to counter the Benin palace and although a few of them do stand up to scrutiny and I feel they should be given their own autonomy, as Ogbemudia (apparently) promised them in 1983, even after Alli vs. the Benin palace, I would also say that some of the other claims of the Ijaws in the area are overreaching and are based on shoddy reasoning, false claims about the meanings of words,  and misinterpreted quotes of historical sources, which I - a mere student and not even a trained historian - could easily refute. That the Ijaws deserve autonomy should not be in doubt, but some of their counter claims are inaccurate and the attempt to portray the Binis as not indigenous to Gelegele, Ughoton, etc.  are ludicrous from other available information and the truth lies between the most extreme claims of both (Bini and Ijaw) sides. I do not think they should be under a Benin chief in these times, being Ijaw, but the attempt to carve away Bini land, such as Gelegele and its environs, is obviously not something that would be taken lightly by the Binis or the Palace. Any entirely Ijaw indigenous communities that are inside Edo state, are another matter and there should not be a question of them getting their autonomy, so as to resolve things amicably, but I am not in a position to decide anything, anyways. On the issue of the Benin Palace vs. the Ijaw in Edo state, you should look at both sides of the issue, before you immediately conclude that the Bini side did not have a legitimate grievance. If those areas had been carved away into Ijawland, what would happen to the indigenous Binis? You should see that there are a few parallels between what was being fought for there and your own desire to regain Anioma towns that were wrongly carved into Edo state.



As for the Esan, most, if not all, of the traditional rulers in Esan land derive from either Ogisos or Obas of Benin, according to their own histories, so it's not surprising that Anthony Enahoro (Esan) pushed the Edo unity movement and said that he was of the Edo tribe. It's very ironic to see that some enogies in Esan are said to be joining the Afenmesan state creation movement. It's alright for the political leaders in Esan to push for that movement, but to see the enogies doing so makes no sense.

Anyway, as those articles show, Esan leaders were for the creation of an Edo state out of Bendel when the proposal was brought up. The real push for division is from Edo North and they even want Auchi (not Uromi) as the headquarters of the proposed Afenmesan state, but the Esan would not have it.

The Esan and Afemai may get their Afemesan state, but it won't really affect the Binis, so I'm not not dwelling over whatever statements are made against Binis by non-Bini people in Edo state to bring about that state creation.

It is the simply the over bearing nature of the Benin, a claim many of us in Delta state equally make.Really it has little to do with "politics" I bet you after Oshiomhole leaves and somehow power gets to Benin just as those leaders of Benin stock I have mentioned , they will abuse it and the silenced demand of an Afenmai state would be resurrected.I dont hover think Edo would be split not because it is not large enough to be divided into at least 2 states but it present status amongst the list of the least viable states in Nigeria is the main issue that would annul the genuine demands of people of Afenmai and Esan axis.I also find it funny to compare the present Edo in size the old Ondo state.

1. I have no problem with the creation of Afenmesan state, and you will see that if and when the state is created, there will be no significant outcry from the Binis,as they are not particularly dependent on Edo north or Edo central. As for people in Delta state, there is a movement for an Anioma state, there was a request for the creation of an Urhobo state, etc., so I'm not surprised at their perspective on this, but I have not heard that any group there was called overbearing (although recently, some people have interpreted the attempt of Great Ogboru to dislodge PDP (Uduaghan) after the Urhobo had already produced the governor, as Urhobo attempts to dominate the state's politics, just as some people claimed the dislodging of Alli (UPN) for Ogbemudia (NPN) was proof of Bini's overbearing nature.)

2. Where did you get the statistic that Edo state was one of the least viable states in Nigeria? Yes, Edo state has its challenges, but  the UN Niger Delta Human Development Report that you referred me to actually strongly disagreed with that claim, all throughout the report. I'm serious and being completely honest here. You should actually read it. I read it, and in my earlier, banned response (which would reappear on an earlier page in this thread, and which is full of insults that I have already apologized for), I broke down some of the statistics they claimed for Edo state in the context of Nigeria, and Edo state did not come out unfavorably like you are making it out to. What you claim, and what the report is claiming are different things entirely, so I wonder why you referred me to that.

3. The comparison was not in anyway about size. It was about distinct subgroups of a linguistic group wanting to split and have their own autonomy. The Ekitis split from Ondo so as to have their own autonomy, even though greater Ondo was possibly a better state.

Ogbuefi 1:

@Ngodigha, Physics HD is an ant and so are those of his likes.I have dealth with them severally , and this is just another opportunity.Apart from Tgbanke, Ekpon and Inyelen are other Anioma towns in Edo State.We do have as well settlements like Iru founded on Benin territory.We consider them nonetheless as our kith and kin.

@Physics MHD, I know insults s the nature of the average man from Benin .This is why I am waiting enthusiastically for your ''full" package.But dont think I will leave this thread like Omonuan, No way ! I neva said everthing Egharevba said is truth especially those that  relates to other ethnic nationalities.But the question I ask is that the father of this present Oba, Akenzua 11 in whose presence the book was edited did not deem it fit to made adjustments at that time.

My dear try and visit Urhonigbe and you would so ashamed of even trying to make comparisons in development between the Anioma and Benin people.

You are so insincere to accuse me of hate when you the one that spreads that message all over the place.I am not from Afemesan but it is a simple question I asked why is there a demand for an Afenmesan state ? I am waiting

1. Oba Akenzua II did advise Egharevba to make some corrections, actually. See Uyilawa Usuanlele and Toyin Falola's article on Egharevba's editions of A short History of Benin. In addition, Egharevba revised his traditions multiple times across different editions, so it does not mean that Oba Akenzua II was consulted and approved of every addition or alteration because he read over one verson at one time. 

2. I'll say it again. I wouldn't have any particular reason to visit Urhonigbe as of right now. But it's pretty strange how you're using the example of a town which was neglected by the government, in a state with less monetary resources (Edo state) and which is suffering from erosion, to make your point.

3. I don't really need to accuse you of hate when anyone can see it as plain as day. It doesn't even bother me now, but I didn't care for the fact that you showed such hate but were pretending not to have hatred. I don't have anything against you personally, but I will continue to say that your hatred is unhealthy and you should not let it consume you.

4. The Afenmesan thing has to do with politics. The denial of the governorship to Edo north all those years and the treatment of Ambrose Alli (Esan) was the real issue there. Edo north should have governed the state earlier than they did, no doubt. However, your mention of the Esan is funny. Tony Anenih (an Esan man), one of the biggest criminals in Nigeria, tried to scheme to make Edo north have to wait until 2015 to produce the governor of Edo state, while Edo central (Esan) would produce the governor (Osunbor) after Igbinedion. So apparently they weren't aware of the need to acknowledge ethnic zoning either. The Binis, being the majority in the state, could be credited with voting in Oshiomhole over an Edo central contender, or overturning the results and declaring Oshiomhole the victor, if we were to start crediting groups in that manner, but it probably had as much to do with the failure of PDP and the popularity of Oshiomhole as it had to do with the need to acknowledge ethnic zoning. There could still be an Afenmesan state in the future, but for the same reason there are other agitations for separations of states (such as Ondo splitting into Ondo and Ekiti, for example).

Ogbuefi 1:

The Benins are wicked and nothing can be further than the truth, Every body knows it , every one says it even amongst the Esan and Afenmai who are the supposed closest relatives of Benin.Have you ever wondered why these people want Afemesan State ? It is due to the irresponsblty of your leaders and people, A nationality named after a slave called EDO.When you passed your lies that Urhobos came from gboland , you thought you were addressing a neophyte,  I know the hstory of all Midwestern peoples, Ther origin, customs , civlizaton and so on. have even read Bradbury's book on Edo speakng peoples which you have quoted, In the same manner , you claimed you neva knew Urhonigbe, the largest of all Benin settlements

1. And now you misquote me. I didn't say Urhobos came from Igboland. I said several clans. But I was considering some Isoko clans in my count of "several" and was wrong about that.

2. As I said before, I don't have any particular reason to go to Urhonigbe just yet.

3. If you believe that "EDO" claim, then fine. But there's no reason that you shouldn't accept the rest of Egharevba's claims, then.

4. It's good that you're at least honest enough to admit the hatred. Don't let it consume you, though.

Percy Amaury Talbot was a man, and his wife was Dorothy Talbot. I thought you had read that book?

And as for the insults, you can keep insulting if you want. I already apologized for the insults and the insults to appear, and I'm not interested in littering this thread with anymore insults and vulgarity. So you can "give back with interest," but it's not going to make any difference to me.