₦airaland Forum

@smile4kenn,

smile4kenn:
There is no gain in criticizing the catholic church. They have been existing for thousands years and the church is still there with millions of members,

Do you think people in catholic church are not humans? or do you think catholic priests are not humans?

Actually, just to correct an impression from my point of view, I don't think anyone is saying that Catholics are not human. Rather, the issues being discussed need to be well understood on either side so that people do not come away assuming that anyone is attacking Catholics themselves. In the past, tempers have been high - and they still run high in the present. But when discussions are held on several issues, the tendency is for people to ignore the issues and rather focus on personal feelings. Just my observation, Cheers.

@tribalist,

tribalist:
Its a no brainner. So stop disguising the fact that you didnt know what you were doing to insult catholics. These pictures you posted where done before you even made the other thread to cover up this fact. You are quite aware of your actions and deed.

Posting pictures of such apparitions is no insult - in as much as it is Catholics themselves who have attached some religious importance to such simulacra. Even if I was not the one to post them, these are not private matters as many people know that these images are all over the net - so why should that upset you so much? It's not as if I even made any critical statements about such images, and the only that seems to be so upset here is you.

tribalist:
Even in your previous posts in catholic threads your signatures of ridicule are all over the place. All those pictures of catholic faithfuls praying to mary or the pope praying in mary's grotto were all posted by you and no one else to buttress your point that catholics bow to mary.

That's true, and I don't remember denying that I've been engaged in fiesty debates with Catholics in the other thread. There were two things that drew me into that debate: (a) the denials of several Catholics at the obvious issues of images and praying to Mary; and (b) the taunts of Catholics who would not let me be (that's why I often said "me I dey my own jeje". My aim was not to ridicule anyone; but it is understandable that a few Catholics would have been upset after reading the evidence in my debates about the issues they denied.

tribalist:
To a first timer, it might look like a mistake that you posted this picture erroneously without any malice of sort, but your past posts vindicates me that you really despise catholics with a passion and you will do everything in your power to bring us down.

You truly sound like the first-timer you envisage here. I don't post pictures or evidence erroneously; nor do I despise anyone or even aim to bring anyone down. If that is what you made out of reading my posts, you missed it by a long short and only allowed your mind to stray.

tribalist:
Unfortunately no matter the scheme or devise you think of or plan towards to humilate catholics will ever succeed. The more the evil intentions to scorn and make mockery of catholics, the more we multiple.

People have always multiplied their number on error - so what is my bother there? Pride does not help your case here, so I could as well bear with your misgivings.

tribalist:
Of course it is all over the net but you will be the first one to scout for them and post it. I have seen you have devised a ploy whereby you just open a topic or paste pictures that could cause a religious war or denomination battle and you would quietly step aside and allow your people to finish your battle. How cowardly of you! But when someone posts something remotely negative about you, all your followers will be pressing the moderator button to come to your aid. But for you slander is ok. No problem. Thats what you get for not being a favoured denomination.

Lol, you are really disturbed about something that cannot be defined here - and trying to misrepresent issues where no one else is complaining is a sad waste of your resources.

tribalist:
from the little i have seen in the past catholic threads were you were a scourge, the members there decided to ignore you and all your feeble entries and hand shake of friendship were rebuffed. It was due to the fact that you were totally blanked out maybe a sort of ban from the catholic forum that you decided to open other threads or contribute to anti catholic threads.

Ah! This one is a huge laugh! Catholics banned me or rebuffed my shake of friendship? Make I laugh out really loud! Since my return after a long break, I chose not to go over to either the Muslim section or Catholic threads and rather concentrate my efforts elsewhere in general discussions where thinkers (rather than whiners) participate. Even so, I'm not the only one debating the issues of Catholicism on the forum; but just to placate your conscience, you zeroed in on pilgrim.1 because you have very little clue where else to turn to for your sobs.

My dear tribalist, there's no need for all these vexations - I was long done with debates on Catholic issues - and where I piced it up yet again was to show that it was pointless for a few Catholics to refer to others as liars when they themselves were obviously denying the obvious. The issues are there - and if you feel so offended and put off, there could have been a better way to discuss this. However, if you would rather feel that your case is beyond help, then there's no need to reason issues through any further. Do have a wonderfukl weekend. Jesus is Lord.

Okay, just so that no one misunderstands why this thread, I can only say in few words:

Observe the patterns
they happen -
people see what they want to see
and they are not limited to just religious symbolisms

At the end of the day, let's understand something: there are "orphic" phenomena happening in our world.

Orphic (adj)
‘Having an import not apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence;
beyond ordinary understanding'

This was not to ridicule anyone; but as we observe these issues, we can at least appreciate that such things exist.

Cheers all.

idupaul:
there is somting bout your line of tot, its really diverse.

its either u are one really pious and smart person or a good deciever.

i think i want to meet u in person because u amaze me

Hahaha! That's quite a good one.
It's true - my thinking is quite diverse, and that's because I learned quite a lot from the people I encountered along my search for meaning in life and faith. One cannot live in a box, and when you encounter people who challenge your thinking with the "real" questions of the day, you have no alternative than to calm down and search for answers! I mean, really search!
Perhaps someday we shall have the fortune of meeting - never say never. But as far as "amazing" anyone is concerned, I would be shy to admit to that. Rather I always hold that the people I've met in life are the truly amazing people indeed.

idupaul:
well done pilgrim

are u just one person or a group that shares the same ID?

@idupaul, lol. . . why do you say so?

@tribalist,

tribalist:
@pilgrim

You are really a devilish and fermentor of problems.

Okay, thank you all the same and may God bless you in return.

tribalist:
Why do you like insulting catholics at any given moment it pleases you?

I have not done so. Posting pictures of what people saw surely should not be regarded as insulting Catholics - especially when these matters were not done in a closet. All the same, I didn't set out to insult anyone; and that is why I rather went to another thread and shared matters on these subjects without zero-ing in on Catholic insigna. You may want to go have a look.

tribalist:
Obviously these images and pictures were meant to poke and make fun of catholics and give non catholics the opportunity to say slanderous and offensive statements against catholics.

That's not true. Even if I never posted those pictures, they are all over the net and many people must have seen them before even I posted them on the forum. Yet, I don't see how that should be interpreted as slander against anyone.

tribalist:
Why do you derive so much joy in making other denominations unhappy?

You're misreading issues and arriving at such vexations unnecessarily. If I wanted to focus on making your own denomination unhappy, I would have been doing so every single time I log in. However, there could be a better way of sharing matters with me - but if you would rather be vexed, I would not go there.

tribalist:
You hide under the garb of being a christian but you as long as it has nothing to do with your church or beliefs you wage an all out war to ridicule that religion or faith.

No one has been complaining other than yourself - how many people have felt that I'm waging an all out war against Christianity?

tribalist:
If it was another person that posted these pictures to fan the embers of hate of another denomination or faith, the moderator would be very very quick to lock the thread or even ban the person because of you. But since you have been given the blanket license to do and undo on nairaland, you waste no opportunity to take advantage of it.

I think there's a better way to handle these matters. Simply tender your complaints to the moderators that you would like those pictures removed from this thread, and they might oblige you. Because I was sensitive to not hurt anyone's feelings, that's why I went to another thread and posted pictures about patterns not limited to just Catholic insignia - they include such insigna in Christian and non-Christian phenomena. Does that mean I am out atacking everybody all at once?

tribalist:
I don't know why your so afraid of posting what church or denomination you worship in.

I haven't been afraid of doing so - if you had taken the time to read through my earlier discussions with Catholics in the relevant thread, you would have seen what I said about such questions.

tribalist:
Since you like to take advantage of other people's faith, it would be fair to proclaim to the whole world where you worship and what you do. Maybe your afraid of the slags you might recieve after your past miraculous post of how you converted.

My discussions so far should be easy to help identify my beliefs on any issue.

tribalist:
I really don't see you as a christian that wishes the best for other faithfuls.

That's okay - there are many people that have said worse things to me directly.

tribalist:
If your own idea of convincing people to follow jesus christ is through venominous posts and ridicules of other people's faith, it says a lot about the kind of jesus you claim to worship.

It's such a pity if you have issues about what I share with people such that you're the only person with this angst against my entries. If others feel I'm all out to attack Christianity, I sure would have heard from them.

tribalist:
Your just a harbinger of hate between catholics and protestants. Good luck to your evil propaganda!

Thank you again, and in return may God bless you for Christ's sake.

Another phenomenon that some people have been investigating for a while now is that of the "Crop Circles"


https://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/135000/images/_138718_crop_circles_300.jpg
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/138718.stm


[img]http://www.dcca.nl/2008/standaardbuiten/1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.dcca.nl/2008/standaardbuiten/2.jpg[/img]

credit: http://www.dcca.nl/2008/standaardbuiten/standaardbuiten-uk.htm


Now, of course many people have their own explanations to these matters - some even calling it a hoax. Theories abound as to how some of these issues occur; some others clearly do not know how specifically to give a satisfactory answer to every single case.

For me, I would say that the reader should not be alarmed or unduely disturbed. I'm not suggesting I have answers; but for those who may not know and want to interpret just about every occurence of a simulacra to a religious "sign" and bend the knee, it's my hope that such friends would broaden their horizon and set their hearts where it should be.

Shalom.

Nimshi:
You see what your eyes want to see.

True.

Now while the reactions may be varied (as we have seen), no one can deny that these phenomena are quite striking. I mean, it is not everyday one sees the word "G-O-D" on the side of an alligator spelt so unmistakenly! Yet, that alone is insufficient reason for anyone to rever that alligator to such extent as to worship the creature. Romans 1:25 warns us against the attitude of those who "worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator" (Roman 1:25). Fascinating as they are, they should not distract us from knowing Who really is the One we worship.

We next turn our gazes to the happenings in our galazies – those nebulous patterns that may amaze us in their own unique ways. I’m not aware of anyone as yet making a simulacra from them; but most of the images may look like a few familiar cognitive phenomena around us, especially when viewed at different scales. So, what are some of the examples of these nebulous bodies? Enjoy below:


APOPHENIA of the GALAXIES


https://collab.digitaluniverse.net/media/f/f7/Pillars.jpg

Recognize anything here?


https://dtastronomy.wikispaces.com/file/view/eagle_nebula_heic0506b_f.jpg

The “Eagle Nebula”


[img]http://www.daviddarling.info/images/Ant_Nebula.jpg[/img]

The “Ant Nebula” (Menzel 3)

Now, while people may be fascinated by these apophenia so much so as to attack some “miracle” or religious significance to them, perhaps we may need to take our eyes off those types for now and focus on those other pareidolia that do not have (as yet) a religion made out of them. Yep – there are such simulacrum that do not bear religious insigna on them, but which nonetheless fascinate us with wonder as well. A few examples to the point:


COGNITIVE BIAS, APOPHENIA, or TYPE 1 ERROR?!? (4)


Kitten Born With Love-Heart

[img]http://www.lifeinthefastlane.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/heart_kitten_2sfw.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.lifeinthefastlane.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/heart_kitten_3sfw.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.lifeinthefastlane.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/heart_kitten_4sfw.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.lifeinthefastlane.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/heart_kitten_5sfw.jpg[/img]

Picture credits: http://www.lifeinthefastlane.ca/kitten-with-a-whopping-huge-heart/offbeat-news



Piglet Born With Love-Heart

[img]http://www.lifeinthefastlane.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/heart_piglet_1sfw.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.lifeinthefastlane.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/heart_piglet_2sfw.jpg[/img]

Picture credits: http://www.lifeinthefastlane.ca/kitten-with-a-whopping-huge-heart/offbeat-news



Puppy Born With Love-Heart

https://bp0.blogger.com/_ySCIT3KO9Zc/RqDEfR3VtEI/AAAAAAAAGnA/xp9I80t4i-A/s400/Chihuahua_1.gif

https://bp1.blogger.com/_ySCIT3KO9Zc/RqDEfh3VtFI/AAAAAAAAGnI/XWdU372p53c/s400/Chihuahua_2.gif

https://bp2.blogger.com/_ySCIT3KO9Zc/RqDEfx3VtHI/AAAAAAAAGnY/qiph6F5CGWU/s400/Chihuahua_4.gif

Credit: http://lumq.com/07/chihuahua-puppy-born-with-love-heart-pattern/

Besides the religions of the ‘Cross’ and the ‘Crescent’ (no offences intended), there are other crowds that are drawn to similar cognitive biases in nature. One such example is the case of the “Monkey Spirit in a Tree” in Singapore. Viewed from various scales, one may see outlines and projections that may look like monkeys on the tree trunk. See for yourselves:


CLUSTER ILLUSION OR GAMBLER’S FALLACY? (3)

“Monkey Spirit” In Tree – Singapore

https://images.stanzapub.com/readers/2008/09/07/untitled1-copy1-copy1_2.jpg

https://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2008/09/07/untitled1-copy2_1.jpg

https://images.stanzapub.com/readers/2008/09/07/monkey-tree1_2.jpg

https://images.stanzapub.com/readers/2008/09/07/monkeynews9_1.jpg

______________________________________________________________

“The monkey spirit tree made it to the headlines and became one of the most
talked-about news items in Singapore. A usually peaceful housing estate
bustled with life as people gathered at the tree to pray for good luck. Believe
it or not, a number of people had a windfall after paying their respect to the tree.

The phenomenon occurred in Singapore in September last year. It was caused
by a car accident which split open the bark of the tree to reveal two monkey-like
figures that resembled a smiling mother monkey with her little child.

News broke out when an anonymous person left a notice beside the tree,
stating that a monkey was searching for his father, the Monkey God, that had
been released by the accident. Believing it as a sign of good omen, people from
far and wide gathered at the tree to pray for good luck.”
______________________________________________________________

source and pix credits:
http://www.newsflavor.com/World/Asia/An-Unusual-Phenomenon-The-Monkey-Spirit-Tree-in-Singapore.246163

idupaul:
Why must the holy virgin be always pictured in that dressing.

That's a very important point I was contemplating on expatiating upon - but you anticipated me.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=178839.msg2891554#msg2891554 date=1223074155]Well, a few of my muslim “friends” on YIM have “kindly” asked me in very critical terms (apart from the remonstrances) to check the “signs” of Allah all over the place.[/quote]So, there they are. But although some were naïve to assume that it has always been “allah” written on those medium/media, they supposed (nay, ‘alleged’) that one could not find a similar “sign” for the European’s god (by which they meant that no such signs could be found in the English equivalent of “God”).  I remember someone gently “reminded”  me on the forum that Jesus never spoke English (“never heard of it”,  said she) . . by which she had thought of calling my attention to the name ‘Allah’.

That being so, I only smiled and asked those gentlemen to come back here and let me help them see just the very thing they alleged was never in existence. Below, you will find “GOD” written on the side of the alligator:


                      https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/08/Gator_228x151.jpg

                     https://purgatorio1.com/wp-content/pics/godgator.jpg

                     https://www.yoism.org/images/WithGodOnHisSide.JPG


                      ____________________________________________________________

                    Michael Wilk was tossing back a few beers with friends when he saw
                    God on the side of his 4-foot-long pet alligator. The white markings
                    popped out against a backdrop of black scales to form the letters G-O-D.”
                      ____________________________________________________________

source: http://purgatorio1.com/?p=473  (more here)

debosky:
In addition, no real purpose or reason can be ascribed to these random sightings, except for generating undue hype or paranoia.

Hi @debosky,

Well, that's one view (or reaction) to the phenomena being shared in this thread - as I didn't want to derail the other one. The thing is that it is not limited to Mary sightings or apparitions - as you will see later on.

Warm regards.

Ah, but it’s not only about the “Virgin Mary” or “Jesus” that these pareidolia and simulacrum have been attributed. Indeed, there are so many of these that one encounters around the world; and they have also been regarded with special attention by their admirers. Let’s look at a few other religious apophenia in the world (I apologise – the grammar no be my fault ).

Well, a few of my muslim “friends” on YIM have “kindly” asked me in very critical terms (apart from the remonstrances) to check the “signs” of Allah all over the place. Okay, granted – I checked and came up with the following:

https://semuabisnis.com/Cerita-Renungan/images/ikan_alloh.gif

https://www.islamicvalue.com/mjz51.jpg


https://www.islamicvalue.com/bees.jpg https://semuabisnis.com/Cerita-Renungan/images/miracle_allahu.gif

‘Allah’ in Arabic written on ‘honey cubes’


https://www.semuabisnis.com/content_images/1/Lafal-Allah-pada-sebutir-telur.jpg

‘Allah’ in Arabic written on an Egg


https://www.semuabisnis.com/content_images/kaktus.jpg

Cactus spelling ‘Allah’ in Arabic


https://semuabisnis.com/Cerita-Renungan/images/tree_ruku2.gif

Tree in ‘Ruku’ Position (Islamic prayer position)

There certainly have been many such expressions recorded in so many places around the world. Whether they include images on –
~ a Missouri man’s grease tray
~ grease cheese sandwich
~ a Chicago underpass
~ a tree in Dallas
~ dental x-ray in Arizona
. . all these have drawn people in their multitudes to give them various meanings and signifiance, so that some who are quite religious have made some special buffer to zone off such grounds for worship/prayer.

A few more of such images are given below: see what you make of them.


SIMULACRA, PAREIDOLIA, APOPHENIA . . . OR ?!? (2)


[img]http://0723081442_M_072308_fishstickjesus.jpg[/img]

Whose Face Is This?


[img]http://mikesplace.freeserverhost.com/Gallimaufry/VirginMaryGrilledCheese/Virgin%20Mary%20in%20Grilled%20Cheese,%20box%20print%20&%20framed%20print.jpg[/img]

“Virgin Mary” on Grilled Cheesethat fetched $28,000 .


https://www.nbcsandiego.com/2005/1027/5188862.jpg

Some see a crucifix in this fishbone


While some of these images have drawn the attention of many curious minds, most of them have been discounted and others have not aroused the interest of the authorities to investigate them (as in the case of the souplantaion panelling in San Diego). Indeed, most of the patterns are around us everyday and we tend to take them for granted. And if you’re a thinker inclined to enquire about their religious significance, it seems queer indeed that so many people are moved to build shrines for worship or prayer around these images – whether they appear on food or on trees.

APPARITIONS,   SIGHTINGS,   IMAGES,   SIMULACRA  . . . OR ?!?  (1) 

There is hardly any part of the world where people are totally oblivious of reports about the apparitions or sightings of “Virgin Mary”. Whether these are actually ‘Mary’ herself appearing in these phenomena is not the issue here; but observe for yourself and see if there are dots to be connected somewhere as to the coincidence in these occurences.


             Some See Virgin Mary In Souplantation Paneling

              https://www.nbcsandiego.com/2006/0824/9730048.jpg

              https://www.nbcsandiego.com/2006/0824/9729318_240X180.jpg

              https://www.nbcsandiego.com/2006/0823/9726804.jpg

             https://www.nbcsandiego.com/2006/0823/9726807.jpg

             https://www.nbcsandiego.com/2006/0823/9726809.jpg

             https://www.nbcsandiego.com/2006/0823/9726810.jpg

             https://www.nbcsandiego.com/2006/0823/9726811.jpg

                   ________________________________________________________

                   “The latest sighting of the Virgin Mary is at a local Souplantation
                   in San Diego. . . Customers told NBC 7/39 that they see her image
                   in a piece of wood paneling at the restaurant on Mission Gorge Road
                   in Grantville. The business' management said that it has been there
                  for years. . . The local Catholic diocese said that it is not investigating
                  it as an actual apparition of Mary.”
                   ________________________________________________________

source and picture credits: NBCSanDiego.com (August 2004)
There’s a link just above the NBC San Diego report where readers can view more of these images.

Orphic (adj)
‘Having an import not apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence;
beyond ordinary understanding’ (WordWeb online)


The “unbelievable” have often been explained away by doubters – and there are many of us who fall into that category of enquirers. One thing is sure as we examine issues that will be shared in this thread: most of these phenomena cannot be explained away; albeit many people who have tried to do so only serve us with unsatisfactory exculpations. Not that I have any answers myself: no, I don’t have any answers at all. But the wonder of it is that I choose to hold my thoughts in reservations where it is not clear to me what they are, rather than assert that thus-and-that are actually the answers.

*As it is not my intention to derail a particular thread on these themes (and definitely not to offend those who hold such convictions), it seemed a better deal to bring my concerns to a different thread for comments and discussions to be shared. [I apologise upfront to our friends and brethren of the Catholic faith to understand that pilgrim.1 is not proposing a dissing of their convictions – that is not my intention, and I respect your convictions even though we may not find common grounds on so many issues].

However, it would be interesting to see what these phenomena make many people think. Are they merely to be ignored, laughed away, . . or there is something about them that should make us think for a moment and appreciate just how little we know of our living world? Indeed, some have opined that they are possibly “reactions”; others may be inclined to see them as “tricks of light”. Whatever is the case, let’s take a look at some of these and see the reactions and comments that may follow them.

My wonderful Master Jesus, I love You and praise You for Your grace.

Nehemiah 8:8

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly,
and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

jennykadri:
pilgrim dear,how is u doing today honey

My dear sista, Jesus is Lord of my life everyday. I dey kampe - all glory to His wonderful Name. You nko? How body? I trust you're blessed even more in all things!

idupaul:
Are u saying those images pilgrims posted are apparitions ? them look reactions to me

Hmmm, well. . there is bound to be mixed reactions from everyone on these issues. Perhaps in order to not derail this thread, I'll try to post a bit more on the subject from another perspective. Bless you all.

Okay people, I know the topic was about ‘people’, not dogs or other animals. However, if this is any worthy news to make you smile, here it is:


[size=14pt]Argentine Dog Saves Abandoned Baby[/size]

____________________________________________________________

https://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s331/wvbocere/LaChina.jpg

An eight-year-old dog has touched the hearts of Argentines by saving the life
of an abandoned baby, placing him safely alongside her own new puppies.

The country's media are calling him "the miracle baby". He was born prematurely
to a 14-year-old girl in a shanty town outside the capital, Buenos Aires. She is
said to have panicked and abandoned the boy in a field, surrounded by wooden
boxes and rubbish.

Then along came La China, reports say, the dog which somehow picked up the baby
and carried him 50m to place him alongside her own puppies. The dog's owner
reported hearing the child crying and finding him covered with a rag. The baby,
weighing 4kg (8lb 13oz), had some slight injuries, but no bite marks.


Owner's concern

The owner called the police and the child is now being looked after by the authorities,
while a decision is taken about his future. The frightened mother appeared shortly
after her baby was found.

The Argentine media has descended on the shanty town, talking of "the Argentine
Romulus and Remus", the legendary founders of Rome, abandoned as babies and
rescued by a wolf, nearly 3,000 years ago.

La China, worried about her own puppies, is reported to be petrified by her new
found fame, and her owner says he is worried that she is not eating.

____________________________________________________________

source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7577275.stm
picture credit:
http://wvbocere./2008/08/22/argentine-dog-saves-abandoned-baby/

theopops:
Offline: pilgrim, I sent you an offline.

My brother, sorry for the delay. I'll take a look - so many YIM popping up (especially from those "greeting" me with the caterwauls), that's why I decided to come here and cool off. Cheers.

sarmy:
Brothers and sisters

Heb 7:5 makes it clear that in the old testament tithe was required as part of the law and Galatians 3:10-13 says we can no longer continue with the practices of the law,

5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Dear sarmy,

    (1) Levitical priesthood is based on the Mosaic Law - yes? Yes.

    (2) The concept of TITHES came before the Levitical priesthood - yes? Yes.

    (3) Tithing as a whole did not originate with the Levitical priesthood - No?  NO.

    (4) The Levitical priesthood put an end to TITHING - yes? NO.

Therefore what? Therefore this -

              (a) that Levites took tithes by the Mosaic Law is clear (Heb. 7:5)

              (b) but the Melchizedek priesthood is not based on LEVI (Heb. 7:6)

Hence, what has happened to the order of priesthood according to MELCHIZEDEK? Why do we always miss that one in every argument? Why are people to quick to remain on LEVITICAL priesthood and forget all references to Melchizedek?

So, here's what the Bible says about Melchizedek in Hebrews 7:8 - which I already quoted from your own recommendation of the AMP version:

      (a) "Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received
             by men who are subject to death;

      (b)  while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one
             of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually]".

It doesn't seem to be clear why people are against tithes - and all excuses about Abraham's tithing don't make any sense. What did the Bible call it - "FRAUD"? The only thing anyone can do is this: if you don't want to give, don't do so. Why accuse others simply because you cannot give tithes?

@sarmy,

sarmy:
Using the name Tithe AS IF STILL PRACTICING ORDINANCES OF THE LAW is wrong, we can give 10%, 80% or 100% no problem, it's good, there are rewards in giving but using mal 3:8-10 to support giving is contracry to Apostles' doctrine.

Lol, if the name "tithe" is the problem, what then is the name of the 10%, 80% and 100% you are proposing?

See, my dear brother, the issue is simple for me: it does not worry me in the least what it is called in Scripture - God called it "tithes", and that is enough for me.

The problem with many people is that they often want to strain so much to make tithes a matter of the LAW, when they know very well that it preceded the LAW. How do they play round this fact? They make excuses as to say that:

    (a) Abraham gave tithes only once:  so?
         how many times should he have given before God can call it "TITHES of ALL"?

    (b) he did not give from his own income: so?
         did God call it stealing or borrowing or anything else other than tithes?

    (c) we cannot repeat what Abraham did: really?
         then we should stop having FAITH!

I just wonder how miserable our excuses for not wanting to follow scripture can be sometimes! If Abraham did not give tithe, or if God called tithes "evil", or "FRAUD", or "FALSE". . . then I would see their point. As long as God has not called it any such, why do we often make such statements just because of our own perception of what men have made it into?

@KunleOshob,

Thanks for your concerns. Let me show you a few things that often amazes me with Christians who are at liberty to accuse God's Word of what it never said.

KunleOshob:
I am sorry to have used the word false doctrine, i think i would have stated it better if i described it as fraudulent doctrine.

Rather than push your default agenda of calling it anything as such, it would be better to share with us where you find God describe tithe itself as either "false" or "fraudulent". Nothing else matters, for if you cannot find such a verse saying such, I think the rest is mere entertainment in your arguments.

You see, Kunle bros, I'm not the sort of person who goes haywire just because some people are abusing Biblical doctrines. People have said a lot of things and driven their mouths and hearts to say things that they shouldn't - and it seems we shall remain on this page forever on the same thing. So, to make it brief, just be so kind to show us where God called tithing the same thing you are too driven to call it: "false" and "fraudulent". That will do for now, thanks.

IDINRETE:
mr and mrs moderator for the attack on pilgrim

@IDINRETE, Lol. . . please don't get upset on that small event. Attack? That's nothing. How body?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Chrisbenogor:
@pilgrim
How body? Abeg no mind that omomor just ride on abeg.

@Chrisbenogor, will do so sometime later as occasion serves me. Warm regards.

@MC Usman,

MC Usman:
I have never come across any biblical text that concedes that Mary kept her virginity throughout her entire life.

Nor have I. However, the Biblical texts are all there to be read so that people don't go about with untrue concepts.

obatoro:
God bless you my brother!

@obatoro, God bless you more.

@sarmy,

sarmy:
I really like this forum, in my church it seems 'am alone as I can not discuss this with anyone, they seem not to understand or too afraid to talk about it, I feel like leaving the church but where do I go as most churches are the same, I almost turning away from Christianity when my pastor said quoting from mal 3:8-10 that it's compulsory for christian to tithe if not THEY WILL NOT GO TO HEAVEN as no robbers will make it to heaven.

It would be quite a sad expereince if one does not know why they have believed in Jesus Christ in the first place. Believing in Christ does not mean we are not going to face problems - there were plenty of problems Christians faced in the days of the apostles. They also enjoined us to be ready to face serious problems as well ("unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" - Php. 1:29).

My brother, challenges will come to you as a Christian - both from within and from outside the Church. I'm not the only one who has faced so many unprintable things for simply believing in Him - and you certainly will not be the only one encountering difficulties as such. However, our relationship with the Lord is not predicated on what anyone does or says: we are responsible to know exactly why we have believed; and when facing problems of any kind, we can be sure that He is faithful.

sarmy:
Now every member must have tithe number where they record this and also being checked by pastor to know those who are not paying tithe. What should I do, please advise

The simply advice I can offer is this: whatever you decision you take, try to never engage anyone in a confrontation. Such a reaction is counter productive and you not come away the happier of the party - see God's Word on what it says about "contentions" and you will understand my point. If you want to leave a church, there's a place where you can find fellowship without feeling pressurized by an assigned tithe number. We are not called to be religious police against anyone - and as you consider this issue prayerfully, God will guide your footsteps.



[quote author=pilgrim.1]see God's Word on what it says about "contentions"[/quote]A few:

~ Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom. [Prov. 13:10]

~ The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention,
before it be meddled with. [Prov. 17:14]

~ A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes. [Prov. 18:16]


God bless you.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
@pilgrim
I see obatoro and sarmy have been engaging you on the issue of this false doctrine that as gained popularity amongst pastors for obvious reasons, i wouldn't bother to respond to your post again as i see it has been properly addressed but you keep dancing round in circles and quoting verse out of context to argue basesless points.

Well, we all have our convictions about tithing - and while so many people call it a false doctrine, I'm not one to flag up a "popularity" placard describing it so. often, people take the position that tithing is evil; and when they have made up their minds that such is the case, what is the point trying to ask such people to read God's Word over the matter? If anyone wants to give - do so without castigating anyone else. If anyone does not want to give, save your money and don't let bitterness creep into the heart simply because others are giving. Why call it a "false doctrine" because of your personal disaffection when God did not describe it as such?

In fact, when we look closely, we are constantly reminded of one fact: tithing did not originate with the LAW; and that being so, how could the LAW put an end to what it did not originate? Hence, quoting Hebrews 7:18 to stretch it to mean what it does not say is missing the whole point. Abraham did not wait for any "law/commandments" before he gave tithes of all (Genesis 14:20 and Hebrews 7:4). I don't read anywhere in Scripture where God described tithes as "false doctrine", and I'm not going down that road to accuse the Bible of what many "Christians" are too quick to allege. If men have turned it into something else, does that mean that everything the Bible says about it is "false"?

Let me illustrate: there are MANY other things that people have turned upside down in practice:

         ~ the Lord's Supper

         ~ baptism

         ~ agape feast

         ~ Christian giving

. . . and so many others. For instance, I have heard a pastor say the same thing as sarmy pointed out: which is that if a Christian does not give tithes and offerings, such a believer would go straight to hell - quoting 1 Cor. 6:9-10 (thieves shall not inherit the Kingdom) - because Mal. 3:8 where people have robbed God! Rather than start a quarrel with that pastor, I opened my Bible and assured my heart that he was wrong - but just because that particular pastor was wrong did not mean therefore that tithing was a "false doctrine!" It is just the same thing where people have abused the Biblical teaching of BAPTISM or "Christian giving" - do the abuses mean that baptism is a "false doctrine"?

Instead of trying to push one's personal agenda, humilty requires us to be careful to not accuse God's Word of what it does not teach. As far as I know, men may teach wrongly about Biblical subject - but that does not mean that the subjects in themselves are "false doctrines". If by default someone does not like giving, the best they could do is save their money and don't give anything. Why get upset because others are giving? God does not force anything upon the Christian, nor should any Christian force his excuses to accuse God's Word of what it does not call tithing: for all I know, God's Word never once referred to tithing as a "false doctrine". To accuse such a thing against what God's Word says is simply to demonstrate a stray thought.

Regards.