₦airaland Forum

KunleOshob:
Yeah the site is really interesting, only problem is that after i spent weeks going through it and various links attached to it i was left with more questions than answers. One thing though if you read it with an open mind it is guranteed to open your mind to possibilities.

Precisely my thoughts.

The thoughts on that site are so deep; so I'm going to have to spend some time to get the big picture before I offer any synthesis from what they have shared. Meanwhile, I'm a bit fascinated about the mystery of the crop circles - which will feature first before coming back to the UFO to tie the pieces together (especially as some think that the crop circles can best be explained by the activity of real occurences of UFOs that nobody talks about). Hmm, na wah.

Till then, have a great evening.

sarmy:
3. Where to and how (local church, local pastor or those in need or as led by the Spirit of God)

I would say that our offerings are a ministry of the Church and was not meant to be carried out just about anyhow according to our fancies.

One could always give to the poor however one chooses (Mark 14:7); whereas the ministry of the saints is something which is gathered in Church (1 Cor. 16:1-3). Again, as this minsitry also extends to the support of ministers (1 Cor. 9:14; Galatians 6:6) as well as elders (1 Tim. 5:17-18), it makes sense that they are made collectively in Church. That does not mean that we cannot support the poor directly, though; yet, such a support is no excuse for not obeying what the Lord had ordained in 1 Cor. 9:14.

sarmy:
4. If a percentage of ones income is given to the local church and some to less privileged in the body of Christ/society but not as tithe, would this be acceptable to God.

Perfectly so, I believe, because whatever we do with our money or material wealth is absolutely up to us (Acts 5:4 – “Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?”). One cannot dictate to another what and how their money or material substance should be used. Yet, whatever percentage we may want to set aside for the help of the poor, it should not be confused for the ministry of our giving in Church as outlined earlier.

Many blessings.

sarmy:
2. When (monthly or weekly, regularly and consistently even when you are owing or having pressing financial needs, what about if you did not pay for a while, must you re-pay back)

There are so many questions embedded in that single one; and let’s see if we could deal with them inidvidually:

(a) when should it be – monthly, weekly, regulalry and consistently?
I think the keyword there is ‘consistently’. If one wants to do so more regulalry or even monthly or weekly, it is a transaction between him-/herself and God.


(b) what about when there are pressing financial needs (like bills to be paid)?
I think that the Bible has a direct answer to that:

‘For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted
according to that a man hath,
and not according to that he hath not.
For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened’
~~ [2 Cor. 8:12-13]

The verses above clearly states that giving, even when it is based on a willing mind, is accepted according to what a man has and not to be made under a burden where you don’t have. If one is cajoled to pay or give anything under a burden, then something else is operating rather than the Word of God.

Now, please understand that these are my thoughts – and I may be wrong. However, let’s balance the concept by recognizing that some people’s hearts have been moved to give ‘according to their ability’ (Ezra 2:69 and Acts 11:29) while others were moved even under deep poverty to give more than their abilities (2 Cor. 8:2-4). The underlying current is that each giver should know that God does not wish to burden them in this ministry at all.


(c) what about if one does not pay for a while – should he/she repay?
Hmm, I don’t think tithes and freewill offerings for the Christian should be treated as rents that we owe landlord O! Under the Law, the concept of repaying tithes was well established – problem is that one was to add 20% of the value of the tithe before repaying it (Lev. 27:31). However, this was not the case with those who preceded the Law, nor is it the case with those who came after the Law. I may be wrong, but for the Christian, the idea of repaying tithes is not Biblically tenable. That is because tithing for the Christian is not predicated upon the Law of Moses.

@sarmy,

I understand that the experiences some of us pass through could be very dire indeed. My advice is that if you find that someone is manipulating about anything for his own gain, there should be no reason why you would want to remian under such oppression. As you search out where to fellowship, you will come to find a few churches where ministers will help your walk in Christ with integrity and wisdom in God’s Word.

In additionto the succinct answers provided by sleekmag, let me address your questions. The first thing to note is that I don’t argue tithes or any type of giving for the Christian upon the basis of the Law – I have often consistently laid that position clear. Are there principles in the Law we can benefit from as regarding tithes and other offerings? Yes, and I’m aware of so many of them. However, my approach in this matter is not to “justify” tithes by a literal application of the Sinaitic/Mosaic Law. That said, let me share a few pointers with you:

sarmy:
I 100% support giving, 10% of ones income to God should not be problem as a child of God, but according to Paul, as one purposed in his heart which is as led by the Spirit not strictly by a percentage of ones income should one give to God, many have disagreed with this in relation to tithe,

Actually, that should have answered your questions. However, if we address them individually, I should note the following:

sarmy:
OK no problem but,

Please, before I finally succumb, kindly clarify the following, with bible reference from the new testament if need be, either for or against. Thanks and God bless you.

1. What to pay as tithe (10% of gross income b/4 tax or net after tax including any other income or gifts)

The point here is not to be so fastidious about an exact amount – whether 10%, 75.58% or even 100%. We learn in Scripture simply that Abraham gave ‘tithes of all’ (Genesis 14:20, KJV) the same thing which the NT calls the ‘tenth of the spoils’ (Heb. 7:4, KJV). The NIV, the AMP and a few other versions use “tenth” in Gen. 14:20, and technically they are the same thing. If one was to be meticulous of exacting figures around gross or domestic income, how would one have calculated what exactly is 10% of Abraham’s spoils?

Suffice to say that giving one’s tithes should not be based solely on the traditional idea of 10% of income, allowances, earnings or wages. It has been the adopted mindset of so many people that tithes/tenths should always be some deductions of exactly 10%; and that is because they always based their ideas on the Law - but it ought not necessarily be so. We know that there is such a thing as the “tithe of the tithes” [Neh. 10:38]; so how does one go about calculating the “tenth of tenths” today in economic terms? Facetiously, we may refer to it as merely 1% and not 10%.


Numbers 18:24 shows that tithes could also be referred to as heave offering – “the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD” (cf. verse 27). It is not until one carefully considers verse 29 that we find the basic principle of what the tithe actually represents – it is the “principal” or “best” part of the offerings given for God’s glory:

“Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD,
of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it.”

The point here is that what the priests presented as their own tithe/heave offering was only 1% of all the tithes in value among the children of Israel – and yet, it is that 1% that God called “the best part thereof, even the hallowed part”. This should humble us to see that God is not looking at the cleverness of actual figures of 10% running in our heads – He rather looks at the heart and the value we place on our offerings. Whether it is 1% or 10% or even 100%, the basic point in tithes is simply that it is the “hallowed part”.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
I know she would come back, is it not pilgrim?? Not one to back out of an argument or topic even when she is arguing from a weak perspective I am sure she would be browsing through the whole http://www.bible.com/ as i write trying to find something she can at least quote out of context to justify her position. Trust me ma dear as far as tithes is oncerned in the bible i have read every single thing written in the bible about it and there is no biblical way to justify the type of tithng practised into churches today it as nothing to do with your income or money.

Hehe. . Kai, na wah for you! You no even want me to breathe sef. Lol, anyways. . . I don't go to websites to harvest my ideas from anyone - and that is why I often offer pointers that I can defend after having done my own study. Maybe if I hook or hang somewhere, me and you fit run to www.bible.com/ and make excuses from there, No?

Stay blessed o jare.

Hi @sleekmag,

I enjoyed the answers you provided to sarmy's questions. I'll try and post a few thoughts in addition thereto. Cheers.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
@sarmy
I am afraid pilgrim would not be able to answer your questions based on scripture, this is beuase there is no where in the bible (old or new testament) that tithing was described as a percentage of income.

Why you not let me land first before you remove the tarmac!
Hehe. . pls give me some time to come back and share naw. . abi?

God bless you brother, I'll come back and share more on the questions sarmy has asked.

@JJYOU,

JJYOU:
you are welcome. my invoice is on its way.

Hahaha!! I don laugh till water jabo for my eyes! Kai! This guy, you're so funny with your wise sayings! Anyhow, thanks - and many blessings.

@sarmy,

sarmy:
@pilgrim,

I hope you will understand why I keep coming back to you on this subject, I really appreciate your time, just that I want to know all I'm yet to know, may God continue to bless you.

I 100% support giving, 10% of ones income to God should not be problem as a child of God, but according to Paul, as one purposed in his heart which is as led by the Spirit not strictly by a percentage of ones income should one give to God, many have disagreed with this in relation to tithe, OK no problem but,

Please, before I finally succumb, kindly clarify the following, with bible reference from the new testament if need be, either for or against. Thanks and God bless you.

1. What to pay as tithe (10% of gross income b/4 tax or net after tax including any other income or gifts)

2. When (monthly or weekly, regularly and consistently even when you are owing or having pressing financial needs, what about if you did not pay for a while, must you re-pay back)

3. Where to and how (local church, local pastor or those in need or as led by the Spirit of God)

4. If a percentage of ones income is given to the local church and some to less privileged in the body of Christ/society but not as tithe, would this be acceptable to God.

The word of God it truth, we shall know it and the truth shall set us free from any boundage.

Many Thanks

I must thank you for sharing those very interesting questions with us all. Later today I shall come back to share a few pointers which I have found helpful as regards those questions; but for the present, I have only one answer to all four questions you offered:

"Whatever argument you read or hear from men,
don't let such things decide what you would do.
As regards giving, let your heart be moved by
the Spirit of God: He is the authority above everyone else."

Let that be more valued than anything you may read from me; but I shall do my best to share my heart with you on the subject. God bless you much for His Name sake.
"

KunleOshob:
@Pilgirm.1
And others who are interested in the UFO phenomenum, check out this site http://www.bibleufo.com/ make sure you are armed with your bible while browsing the site for cross reference purpose, it promises to be really mind buggling. Also a caveat: those who don't want to risk their world views being changed need not bother to check the site enjoy

@KinleOshob,

You're such a lovable brother! Thank you for that reco - I haven't even browsed a quarter of it yet; but someone else had recommended that same site following my post on the UFO testimony by the politician and pilot. Some very intriguing articles on that site. . . can't rush to digest them.

Other phenomena will be posted soon in detail. Another kind brother asked me to look into the phenomenon of crop circles and make a committed statement instead of "ducking behind the lame excuse of having no answers" (his quote). Well, my thanks again to him; and I will take some time off to look deep into it and make some more detailed postings on the phenomena. However, I no go lie naw. . . if I no get answers, why I go pretend hubris?

It's sha all good. . . we are learning more about orphic realities in our living world. Whatever are the interpretations, may God help our hearts to know how to love and serve Him above all else.

Shalom.

Human Evolution Coming to a Halt

          Press Assoc. - Tuesday, October 7 04:21 am

          _______________________________________________________________


https://d.yimg.com/i/ng/ne/pressass/20081007/03/3374551651-human-evolution-coming-halt.jpg?
          Human evolution is grinding to a halt, according to a leading genetics expert.

          The gloomy message from Professor Steve Jones is: this is as good as it gets.

          Prof Jones, from the Department of Genetics, Evolution and Environment at
          University College London, believes the mechanisms of evolution are winding
          down in the human race.

         At least in the developed world, humans are now as close to utopia as they are
         ever likely to be, he argues. Speaking at a UCL Lunch Hour Lecture in London,
         Prof Jones said there were three components to evolution - natural selection,
         mutation and random change.

         He said: "In ancient times half our children would have died by the age of twenty.
         Now, in the Western world, 98% of them are surviving to the age of 21. Our life
         expectancy is now so good that eliminating all accidents and infectious diseases
         would only raise it by a further two years. Natural selection no longer has death
         as a handy tool."

         Mutation rate was also slowing down, he said. Although chemicals and radioactive
         pollution could cause genetic changes, one of the most important mutation triggers
         was advanced age in men. "Perhaps surprisingly, the age of reproduction has gone
         down - the mean age of male reproduction means that most conceive no children
         after the age of 35," said Prof Jones. "Fewer older fathers means that if anything,
         mutation is going down."

         Random alterations to the human genetic blueprint were also less likely in a world
         that had become an ethnic melting pot, according to Prof Jones. He said: "Humans
         are 10,000 times more common than we should be, according to the rules of the
         animal kingdom, and we have agriculture to thank for that. Without farming,
         the world population would probably have reached half a million by now - about the
         size of the population of Glasgow.

        "Small populations which are isolated can change - evolve - at random as genes are
         accidentally lost. Worldwide, all populations are becoming connected and the opportunity
         for random change is dwindling. History is made in bed, but nowadays the beds are
         getting closer together. Almost everywhere, inbreeding is becoming less common.

         "In Britain, one marriage in fifty or so is between members of a different ethnic group,
         and the country is one of the most sexually open in the world. We are mixing into
          a global mass, and the future is brown."

         He added: "So, if you are worried about what utopia is going to be like, don't; at least
         in the developed world, and at least for the time being, you are living in it now."

          _______________________________________________________________

        source: Yahoo News.

Hi fellas,

First off, I'm not posting this as a platform for controversy between TTE (TOE) and THEOLOGY. Rather, I just thought it was an interesting bit of news that we should watch as it develops. My outlook has always been that people should not make themselves the victims of needless arguments, but rather be thinkers or at best students about issues in life.

Consequently, the reposting of this news item does not invite bashings from any side of the divide: hence, "Don't Bash The Theory". This is what someone who is studying the subject simply has to say. We read and observe and share thoughts thereto - not fights on top of him O. . . I dey beg!

The news follows in ernest.

@JJYOU,

Thank you for the above.

@JJYOU,

I really want to thank you for that piece on "Rationale for rejected Offerings". I believe it will bless the Fellowship as much as it has blessed me. God enrich you more with divine wisdom.

@jennykadri,

No, you're not hot-tempered my darling. Lol, I'm learning everyday; and am very much blessed by friends like you who have helped me to mellow with reason.

jennykadri:
body dey inside cloth jare,how u dey?

u sef u know say they will always be war in d enemies camp when one finds the true light,but when such war happens,leave d battle for God to fight for u


after he said --------The battle is not ours but his

Yes O - you're very correct. He has fought all my battles and proved His mercies faithful every single time. All glory to Him.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
@pilgrim.1
You must have been a vey sturborn and argumentative girl when you were young i sincerely hope your husband to be would be able to cope with your arguments

You are very correct - I was (sadly) as guilty as described! You can pray for me. . my wahala too much at times, and that is why sometimes I simply fold myself away for a while. Shalom.

Hi @jennykadri,

Rather than keep trying to type anything to converse or discuss with them, I have simply stayed on posting the default reply as I did with the Reminder thingy. No need for me to go into long story on any religious debates with them. I apologise if this annoys you, and I understand. Please don't let it come across to you that way. . . patience and God continue to bless your heart for Jesus' sake. How body today?

jennykadri:
pilgrim kindly ignore this people

seriously ur replies to them is beginning to annoy me,concentrate on ur thread and don't go offtopic

period

Okay, thank you nne. People like you are a blessing to me. God bless you.

olabowale:
[s]Your email is p_romanio, right? I will be getting in touch with you. Or my email is aqeedahfisrt@yahoo.com. Please get in touch with me. I think whatever you do not want to share publicly, when I get it, I will share it publicly, at my own joke and expense. I will then respond to you publicly and privately on the matter!

At best, we see that you claimed not to have been an expert in Islamic religion. At the same time, you are asking people who are older than you, yet remain in Islam to get in touch with you for some"secret/what they don't know," about Islam! What will you come up with if you are an expert? Even John Esposito of Georgetown University and other Orientalists could not be this cocky with ungrounded "confidence!"

At best, since you discover "Romance, being boy crazy," around 2001, with "hijab," on your head, you are probably not more than 25 years old! The same exact age as my first son. Now, what will you know as a secret not worth sharing with the rest of the world, except with previleged few, "like us, in Private?" Is not like that you a muslim? What do you care about the stability of a religion you found so abhorring that you left it for a one that allows you to "romance, and deep yourself in a mantle of someone other than yourself will bear your burden." Heck, Plus_Queen told you that am old enough to be a grandfather! All my life, I have remain a muslim. I have spent 2 times your age already. I read Qur'an in Arabic. Is there anything I can learn from a disbelief about belief? The only this is that I should not do what disbelief does!

Is not like anyone cares about your thought. Your id is P romanio! You sound more latin/italian/spanish than a Yoruba Nigerian African woman. So, all these charade is unnecessary! And when you "reveal" the secrets, we will defend "Islam," not "Muslims" by the Books of Allah, the Al Qur'an, and, by the Hadith and Sunnah of the Messenger (AS)! [/s]

You are a funny bunch, all by yourself!

Reminder:

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=178839.msg2900499#msg2900499 date=1223292072]

olabowale:
You got to answer my "questions."

I don't need to - and that has been made clear so many times:
I'm not interested in any Islamic arguments on the forum.[/quote]

@anonimi,

Let me also bring out another point from our earlier discussion: I apologise for my firmness, even though you were trying to help us see a few matters by reposting from Yomisays.

One his own persuasions was this:

Yomisays: There may be a few ommissions, but note that none of the above is about “giving to God” (a very vague term, as I am not sure what God would do with money if anyone ever gave Him any).

Well, what I should have said was that it is not true that "giving to God" was a very vague term. True, whatever was being given in Scripture was handed over to the hands of men; but we know that God Himself who inspired the Word says clearly in unmistakable terms that such offerings or giving were made "unto God". I have cited a few above, and if it helps to point them out here again:

Exodus 35:22
And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted,
and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets,
all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered
an offering of gold unto the LORD.

Leviticus 23:38
Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts,
and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings,
which ye give unto the LORD.

Ezra 7:15
And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors
have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation is in Jerusalem.

Of course, there are many such references in Scripture; and I should have gently shared these with us. Yet, the point is that the clause "giving to God" is not a vague term in Scripture. As long as it was offered for His glory, albeit it passes from hand to men's hands, Scripture recognizes such givings and offerings as made "unto God".

Cheers.

@sarmy,

My dear brother, thank you for your warm response. Please forgive me that I have not been as gracious in my repostes; but I'm learning everyday - and again thank you for your forebearance towards me.

sarmy:
@ pilgrim,

1 Corinthians 9:9-11 AMP version

11If we have sown [the seed of] spiritual good among you, [is it too] much if we reap from your material benefits?

My sister, you are either a pastor or pastor's wife or to be, anyway, more blessing to you, I really appreciate all your inputs.

Lol, . . none of the above O!! Although I wish my rascally husband-to-be was aiming to be a pastor!

sarmy:
However, from the above verses of the scripture, there is no command statement in what Paul said, "is it too much if we reap from your material benefits, this could be freewill offering, pastors offering or freewill giving but definitely Paul was not asking for tithe, it he wanted it he could have stated it more clearly in any of his epistles.

Okay O. I hear. Lol, I hope you know Scripture uses different terms for tithes? Me, I never see the terminologies of "pastors offering" or "freewill giving" yet - I still dey search. So at the moment, I will not assume any hubris or extremum here until I find those terms. Best I can say is: "pilgrim.1, just shut up until then!" Lol, you know already I'm just teasing ya.

sarmy:
A command is to direct with authority; give orders with consequences for disobedience, that is not found, such statement on tithe in the new testament

Okay, I hear. What then is meant by "Even so hath the Lord ORDAINED. . ." (1 Cor. 9:14)? Me, I don't want to assume that is a command of forcing anyone to do anything; but even if the Lord had ordained it as such, it does not appear to me that He forces anyone to give anything. Talk about consequences of disobedience to what He has ordained, He alone will judge at that Day (1 Cor. 4:5).

sarmy:
but found in the old testament as in Mal:8-10, what we have is the direct opposite, give freely, willingly, cheerfully for God loves a cheerful giver

Well, I don't think so, and will not force my persuasions on anybody. However, what I do know (or rather think) is that the same elements you mentioned about "give freely" or "willingly" etc., are already in the OT. Can I show some? Here:

Exodus 35:5
Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD:
whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it,
an offering of the LORD; gold, and silver, and brass

Exodus 35:21
And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up,
and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they
brought the LORD'S offering to the work of the tabernacle
of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments.

Exodus 35:22
And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted,
and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets,
all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered
an offering of gold unto the LORD.

Leviticus 23:38
Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts,
and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings,
which ye give unto the LORD.

Ezra 2:68 & 69
And some of the chief of the fathers, when they came to the house of the LORD
which is at Jerusalem, offered freely for the house of God to set it up in his place:
They gave after their ability unto the treasure of the work threescore and one
thousand drams of gold, and five thousand pound of silver, and one hundred priests'
garments.

Ezra 7:15
And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors
have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation is in Jerusalem.

Well, [color=Black]d[/color]em plenty well-well - and the point is that right there in the OT we see that those who offered money or currency (gold, silver, brass and all jewels of gold) did so of a willing heart, not under compulsion or coersion, and they rejoiced in their hearts to have done so. This is why I often beg us all: go look well well before you talk for de matter. Cheerful and willing hearts were seen in freewill offerings in the OT; and for me as a Christian, I can understand why some have helped me to see what the Psalmist said:

Psalm 110:3
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,
in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning:
thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Do the verses above help you as well?

sarmy:
and

2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. There is no anywhere in the new testament (Note:as far as I know) where there is command for christians to tithe (it was a command under the Law but not anymore under Grace)

Okay. No wahala. . . until we see am.

sarmy:
As Paul said in the above passage, you can purpose/decide how much you intend to give 5%, 10%, 50% or 100%, monthly, weekly or yearly. It's up to you as led by the spirit of God under His Grace, this brings much more blessing than the old testament method of giving.

But in the OT, there were profound blessings for giving as well, No?

sarmy:
Reason why some pastors still preach the old method is because they don't trust members will give enough.

Okay. However, in addition I might add: probably it is because they haven't seen the balanced and richness offered on this subject under the new covenant. I may be wrong, though.

God bless.

@KunleOshob,

How are you today?  

KunleOshob:
My dear you should learn to quote scriptures in the bible in it's real context and also read passages to the end in other to get it's real meaning, not just isolated verses which can be used to confuse us and distort the real facts.

Hmm, I only quoted a reference and did not even discuss it at all. How you then interprete my simply quoting that reference as distorting facts is a bit funny.

KunleOshob:
for instance in the passage you quoted from verse 18 says:

Lol, KunleOshob. . . look again my dear sir: I quoted 1 Cor. 9:9-11 - not from verse 18!!  If you wanted to discuss verse 18, no worries - all you needed to have done was share it with us rather than be driven to allege that I was quoting that verse to distort any facts when it does not even appear in my reference. Haa!

KunleOshob:
What then is the [actual] reward that I get? Just this: that in my preaching the good news (the Gospel), I may offer it [absolutely] free of expense [to anybody], not taking advantage of my rights and privileges [as a preacher] of the Gospel.

Thank you sir. But did you notice that the apostle knew it was his "rights and privileges" to be supported according to the issue in question? What you're bringing to our attention is that he did not use those rights, even though he did not deny anyone the same righst and privileges. Let me underscore this point by some verses within that chapter:


        1 Corinthians 9:14-15

        Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel
        should live of the gospel. But I have used none of these things:
        neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me:
        for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make
        my glorying void.

Get the point? Although he recognized that the Lord had ordained that they which preach the Gospel should live by it, and thus recognizing the same thing as his "rights and privileges", the point is that he did not use his rights - a personal choice he made for himself.

The beauty of the passge is that the very thing that many people today disdain and use in uncouth accusation against others is the very thing such accusers have deliberately refused to see in Scripture! The apostle recognizes that others who preach the Gospel had the "right" (or power) to this ministration; even so the apostles had even more rights to do so - yet, he had not used any such privileges nor accused others who do so as barawo (verse 12)! This is why I have often calmly asked that we be careful not to accuse other people unwittingly especially where we have not taken the time to study God's Word.

KunleOshob:
I wonder why our mordern day pastors would not copy this paul's example.

Maybe the accusers themselves need to learn not to be too driven to always accuse others.

KunleOshob:
However that is not to say that people should not give freelly to the church.

That is not to say that preachers of the Gospel are thieves, liars, manipulators, ole, barawo - simply because they use the "rights and privileges" which the Lord had ordained for that purpose. True, there are some who are hungry for filthy lucre (Titus 1:11); but we cannot always accuse everyone else every single time with all sorts of excuses.

KunleOshob:
it is just that your attmempt to quote the bible out of context needed to be responded to.

I'm grateful for such a response, thank you dear brother.

KunleOshob:
Nobody in this post as said to date that it is wrong to give to the church, what we are complaining about is the manipulative, unscriptural and deceitful way ( which is mostly through a demand for tithes) a number of churches go about getting their congregation to part with their money.

I don't think you have noticed how many people ackowledge that tithes have nothing to do with the idea of ~

         DEMAND,
         COERSION,
         COMPULSION,
         FORCE,
         CAJOLING,
         MANIPULATION,
         INDOCTRINATION,
         . . . or any other ONOMATOMANIA!!

The basic question is: "to tithe or not to tithe" - and though some have their mindset on a default idea that TITHE = LAW at every single time, they often fail to see these other issues. That is why my approach is simple: anything one pronounces against tithes immediately renders their arguments unbalanced when it comes to the hypocrisy of "let's just give freewill offerings". God nowhere DEMANDS freewill offerings from anyone as much as He does not demand tithes of anyone. Does your heart move you to give tithes and offerings? Amen - ride on and refrain from accusing others of what you don't know.

Shalom.

@anonimi,

anonimi:
pilgrim.1

Thanks for your response to my query. I will try it once i'm less busy and you will surely see the results here.

Good to know. Blessings.

@sarmy,

sarmy:
sis, There is no any commandment in the new testament for Christians to pay tithe, only freewill offering/giving, willingly, cheerfully and in LOVE not with penalty for not doing but with blessing if done with the right mind and intention.

Lol, then there is no commandment to even give freewill offering/giving, willingly, cheerfully and etc.

Hmm, it would help everyone of us to calmly go back and read the scriptures again and again on this issue. Never assume that there is "NO" reference for anything until you know for sure that such a reference is not there. The best one can say is "I don't know, but am persuaded that. . ."; or "this is what I think".

To find out more on this subject, I recommend you study 1 Corinthians 9:9-11 closely.

Blessings.

[size=14pt]Sonic Boom and Sound Barrier[/size]

[list]"Many people have heard a sonic boom, but few have seen one. When an airplane travels at a speed faster than sound, density waves of sound emitted by the plane cannot precede the plane, and so accumulate in a cone behind the plane. When this shock waves passes, a listener hears all at once the sound emitted over a longer period: a sonic boom. As a plane accelerates to just break the sound barrier, however, an unusual cloud might form. The origin of this cloud is still debated. A leading theory is that a drop in air pressure at the plane described by the Prandtl-Glauert Singularity occurs so that moist air condenses there to form water droplets."[/list]

Source: pizco.com

[size=14pt]Lenticular Clouds[/size]

Sometimes some people try to explain some of these UFO phenomena as if they could pass for everyday occurences. However, a different kind of explanation to these occurences exist to help understand that not every occurence should be regarded as a UFO. One such explanation is the idea of lenticular clouds, which are clouds that appear shaped like saucers or disks and tend to be stationary in the sky. A few of these lenticular clouds are given below, with picture credits to their various sources at the valuca.pizco.com webpage:


https://i34.piczo.com/view/1/9/2/a/b/o/f/e/z/q/i/1/img/i201978337_10118.jpg
© Piczo.com


https://i104.piczo.com/view/1/9/2/a/b/o/f/e/z/q/i/1/img/i259207551_47544.jpg
© Bob Askew, at Devon, UK.


https://i104.piczo.com/view/1/9/2/a/b/o/f/e/z/q/i/1/img/i259063280_28064.jpg
© Gianandrea SandriRoberto Cavallini; at Damascus, Syria.


https://i104.piczo.com/view/1/9/2/a/b/o/f/e/z/q/i/1/img/i259205503_58404.jpg
© Fabiano Busdraghi; at Puerto Natales, Chilean Patagonia.


https://i104.piczo.com/view/1/9/2/a/b/o/f/e/z/q/i/1/img/i248514807_44105.jpg
© Ahmad Jamaludin; Malaysia.


Although so many of these clouds have been sited in different places at various times, one thing is clear: they are inadequate explanations for the real occurences of UFOs like the one posted earlier and testified to by the politician and the pilot.

Hi @idupaul,

How body? Lol, I'll try and post some more about "orphic" phenomena in due course.


May I also mention as an asides, something which someone brought to my attention: when she read my entries about "orphic" phenomena, she was alarmed and wondered if I was now dabbling into witchcraft! Haha! I assured her that wasn't the case - and although I didn't state it earlier on, this was to bring our attention to the fact that inexplicable things happen in our world. A few other things I offered her to take a look consequently soothed her mind. Lol, no - pilgrim.1 is not dabbling into witchcraft and she is still very active and committed to her Christian faith. Incidentally, the emailer and a few others have requested that I post more reports about the UFOs. So I guess you (idupaul) are not the only one asking me to do so. . . and I'll share a few more before moving on to the other examples of the "orphic" phenomena of our world. Fair enough?

Blessings.

Gamine:
Why wont they just leaf this gyal alone eh

Lol, just let them be. One can easily understand why people react the way they do. . . we are living in a very "orphic" world.

@ayinba1,

ayinba1:
@pilgrim

For once, read my post and take it as a response to your story. I am not having an Islamic debate with you. When you post things about Islam/that you did while muslim, and you are wrong, I do not think that it is too much for a muslim to correct you and whoever else is reading. Claiming to be an ex muslim, you mislead people by claiming all those things you did were acceptable as a muslim.

You are free to post but any falsehoods detected will be pointed out.

I have always held out an invitation for people like you who are too assuming. Not in any place on the forum have I claimed to be an expert on Islam (nor even am I close to being an expert on Christianity for that matter) - but if you really want to know how very little you know about the Islam you parade, then by all means get in touch and let me share with you privately on these matters. You will come off surprised about the things your mullahs endorse and make them actually official doctrine. I lived my life, and no other muslim lived it for me. The wonder of every Muslim trying to "correct" me as if I was an encyclopedia of the masjid is why I ask them to simply get in touch and let me share with them on what they don't know.

Cheers.

Hi All,

Here's another one someone teased me with a few minutes ago - asking: "Can we still find people like this"? Well, you read the story and see if you can give a benign nod with a smile. . . as I did!  Enjoy.

[list][size=14pt]Third win for young Countdown champ[/size][/list]

[list]https://d.yimg.com/i/ng/ne/pressass/20081006/15/3506439944-third-win-young-countdown-champ.jpg?[/list]

[list]One of Countdown's youngest competitors has continued his run of form, winning his third show in a row.

Eleven-year-old Kai Laddiman beat his latest challenger - taxi driver Bill Franklin - by a comfortable 95 points to 61.

And the schoolboy, from Broad Oak in East Sussex, is proving to be a king of the conundrums.

He took just four seconds to solve the puzzle, turning the letters LORNASBUM into SUBNORMAL.

Kai, who has to sit on a pile of cushions during filming so he can be seen by the cameras, has already obtained a B grade in AS level maths.

He said he learned the alphabet and how to count from the show, which he has been watching since he was two.

After his third win the young brain box grinned happily.

Mr Franklin, 49, from Market Harborough, Leicestershire, looked sheepish in defeat.

The Channel 4 word game has attracted a stream of youthful competitors in recent years.

In 1992, eight-year-old James Squires won, and in 2005, Tanmay Dixit won in two shows at the age of eight. In 2006, 14-year-old Conor Travers became the youngest series champion.[/list]

[list]source: Yahoo News[/list]

@ayinba1,

ayinba1:
@pilgrim

No need claiming that "someone" pointed  out that Jesus never spoke English. I pointed that out to you and feel free to show us evidence that he spokee/knew about english language.

What was my response to your assertion? Did He speak Arabic? You see why when you guys raise issues of this nature and want an argument by all costs, I often ask you lot to look a bit closer back home and see where your assumptions lead.

ayinba1:
Any muslim that has understanding will not read pilgrim's "conversion story " and place a fatwa on her. I mean what for?

It doesn't matter if they do - what would be their gain?

ayinba1:
Objectively reading her conversion story, I found a lot of disturbing facts which I tried to point out,  but her swarm of intoxicated and euphoric converts would always scream "blue murder" Oh, it's because she left Islam.

My conversion story was not meant to appeal to Muslims, much less Christians. Just as you may have found a lot of disturbing issues in it, so have several Christians - and some have contacted me off the forum to chat about these things as they see that from the onset I ave often and again made clear that I did not set out to lay a foundation for a theological debate of sorts thereto. I have shared answers with those who contacted me; and I did not think it wise to again bring them here on the forum. Of course, others have sent me worse than Abdul's email - and I still thanked them all. If there was nothing to my story, why then are you guy so reactionary to a simple sharing of a part of my life? Besides, when you tried to raise a few points, it was someone else who set your misgivings straight - and you acknowledged your mistakes in having misread the relevant parts. If you had anything further to share, there was not a single moment I discouraged you to do so - and I was more than willing to share with you. But have you done so?

ayinba1:
The fact is all the things that she listed., especially her path to conversion, (boyfriends!!--never an Abdul,  Hakeem , Rashid, always jake, beau and wth he's called) are totally unislamic.

True, never an Abdul, Hakeem, or Rashid for a boyfriend. At the time, I was not in Pakistan nor in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan - you understand why now? And it is true - it was not quite Islamic for a (former) muslimah to speak about 'boyfriend', because it automatically conjured the idea of zina (fornication) in their minds. However, I was sharing my story without trying to pretend anything - for: (1) I was not speaking as a Muslim; (2) my audience were not particularly Muslims (or I would have gone to the Muslim childboard to type it there); and (3) my audience were English speaking people who understood the culture of the West and had no problem understanding that having a boyfriend di not automatically infer that I was commiting zina.

Do I regret having mentioned them? No - why should I be when indeed I was not guilty of what has been alleged about zina, whereas there was no reason in my story why anyone should come to that conclusion unless they wanted to force themselves to think so. Again, the Western democracies are very unlike the Muslim cultures of the East - and people are free to interract across divides of race, gender and social status. I hinted on one of my trips to Pakistan (which I did not detail in that story for the gruesome experience I witnessed there); and I could be thankful that even as a Muslim, it was the democrasy of the West that broadened my mindset and threw me into the world of learning. How many American ladies today are unaware of the fact that you can achieve anything in America because of the relative freedom to everyone to study and work hard?

Even if I did not mention particularly Muslim boyfriend[b]s[/b] (plural), I had several of them - not only so, I categorically mentioned that among my friend[b]s[/b] (pl) were people of other faiths and worldviews: Jews, Mormons, adherents of the Grail Message, etc. However, my particular reference to Christian friends was simply because they had the most profound impact in making me re-think my position and calm down from my Islamic attitude towards them. As is obvious even on the forum, how many times do we see Muslims debate atheists, of adherents of the Grail Message? No - it has always to be against Christians! And that was the very life I lived as a Muslim - castigating Christians and Jews, slurring their faith, and yet was highly praised by Muslims for that very thing.

The difference it all made for me was that when I became a Christian and knew what it actually was for someone to be born again, I had come to love people genuinely - and it didn't matter who they were: Jews, Christians, Mormons. . . and even Muslims themselves, from whom I faced the most difficult moments of my life! Daily I lived in fear, and just could not comprehend why the same people who praised me formerly were those who sought to have my removed from existence.

Did I suddenly become an angel overnight? No - I was quite naive. Even though I knew for sure that I was born again, it took time for me to learn how to walk by the Spirit. In our human nature, we could face moments of the same temptations to be angry. . . and yes, I have demonstrated that same spirit even when I registered on Nairaland and debated Muslims on the forum. Then after I resumed from a long break, you could bear witness yourself that one thing that is consistent with me is my refusal to enter into any arguments with any Muslim. I have never sought to go over to the Muslim section to type anything there; and I have categorically stated again and again that I am not interested in any such discussions with Muslims on the forum. My level of participation on the forum also dropped - and like someone else noticed, I have sought to diversify my efforts to a range of other interesting concerns.

Of course, angry Muslims continue to email me so many unprintable things. I have had nothing for them than thanks and God's blessings upon them. What it easy? No. . . but the wonderful thing is that people who did not know me nor know themselves have also been such encouragements to me. They may think that I was such an inspiration to them and my testimony helped them renew their fellowship with the Lord, and in some cases brought others to Christ; but what they little realize is that THEY are the ones who have taught me much more than I have known for the past year. I am constantly reminded that the power in the Name of Jesus Christ is much more than mere talk, debates, arguments, or clever quotes. For me, it was not theology that settled the issue for me - it was the fact of undeniable miracles and God's mercy to let me experience them for myself! I would indeed have been a fool if I refused to heed the clear attestations of what I witnessed.

ayinba1:
AT the point of her boyfriend's healing, (boyfriend #?), I just knew she had nothing.

Maybe you thought you "knew" I had nothing - but why are you disturbed about it? And "boyfriend"? Yes, boyfriend - though I am accused about zina by every Muslim who has ever highlighted that issue, I don't regret having mentioned it because I know their accusations are only accusations and not true.

Healing? Unbelievable, I agree - but as a former Muslim, I knew if anyone claimed a miracle in Islam, they would not come back saying that they knew it was "nothing". It is okay to doubt. But if you had stood there with a sarcastic heart as I did, ready to ridicle someone who was that ill and you had no pity for his humanity, you would indeed have had to be a person with a heart of stone. Even though I did not believe in the prayer I offered, I was more than shocked that the prayer was instantly answered and he rose up from his couch fully healed!

Just imagine a Muslim standing there: formerly I had doubted anything and everything about the claims of Christians and healing in Jesus' Name. Consequently, I knew this gentleman was ill and was not faking it. What would an atheist father be doing with tears in his eyes as he watched his own son seriously ill? Could it be possible that his atheist father was also pretending to play along with his son's illness? Is that how atheists behave - even towards their own sons? Especially when such an atheist father had loved ridiculing his son's faith? Don't you think he would have been the very first person laughing his head off as he watched the "pretence"?

But, leave all this argument aside - because it was not the atheist father's tears that melted my heart. I knew this guy was ill. A second thing was that I knew this guy's character: he was not the type of person to lie - not even about his own health! A third thing: before that time, he had spoken directly to me that I would hear my dad refer to Jesus as "Lord" (which sounded like blasphemy to my Muslim ears). . . and it actually happened! You don't go away pretending all these matters as mere coincidence, if you were in my shoes.

But for me to have prayed that prayer and seen this guy healed before my very eyes - especially when I meant it as a joke - it was too much for me to take in! Unbelievable? Yes. But did it happen? Yes. What was the reaction of his atheist father? He was as gobsmacked as I was, but he said nothing! If it were all a well-written pretence for a drama piece, why did his father not start laughing out loud that I had been fooled? I have carried that question in my heart to this very day!

A second question was this: why would Jesus have answered a prayer uttered by the mouth of a (former) blasphemer who ridiculed Him and Christians and the Bible with bitter aspersions ferreted from atheist and skeptic sites? Honestly, I don know! I won't pretend that I have any answers. Some have suggested that it could be explained by quoting some verses from the Bible. Plausible; but I cannot truly answer why He would hear that prayer and heal this guy before my very eyes! What kept going through my heart was the fact that the guy in question had categorically said that he knew that the Lord wanted me to pray so I could see what He can do! What I meant as a joke (just to "prove" him wrong) turned out to be a serious reality. If there was nothing at all I learned that day, I went home with this lesson: never, ever in my life joke with the power of that Name! Never ever!!

Dear ayinba1, it's okay to doubt - I once was a serious doubter of miracles done in Jesus' Name. Even if it happened by my prayer, I knew that it would be a loss for me personally if I had not given my life to Him. I mean, just because someone performed a miracle in Jesus' name does not mean that such a person has a genuine relationship with Him (cf. Matt. 7:21-23). What I know is that the instant I called Him "Lord" (which I formerly refused to), at that same instance He actually healed me of my bitterness against Jews and Christians. . . and even helped me to love those who had sought to end my existence for simply becoming a Christian.

I have sought ever since my returning from that break, to not engage Muslims in debates and arguments. Rather, even though I had been invited much earlier to share my story, I was first praying about it and always heard in my heart to wait. I shared this with my email friends - and only one person from all who encouraged me said she would actually put me on her prayer list. The very day Queenisha invited me again to share, that same lady popped up on my YIM and asked if I felt what she was feeling. And that was: sieze the moment and tell your story - don't enter into an argument with anyone, just share your story. I asked her why (even though I felt the same way at that instance as she felt), and her reply shocked me: "I deeply feel there are 3 things that will happen from this: 1. you will be attacked severely; 2. someone will come to know Christ on the forum - and that person has been unfairly criticised by you, pilgrim.1; and 3. you will receive threats upon your life."

All 3 things have happened. I do not need to try and overstate them here; no need to repost emails about them. But I still am amazed that this same person that shared this with me was someone I had unfairly treated in the past when debating Catholicism on another thread. She was not a nairalander; but after that episode, I apologised to her and we became friends. She was the very same person who corrected me that I was wrong in assuming that there was only one place where the expression "full of grace" was used in the Bible! I learnt to respect her so much and valued her friendship deeply. Those who knew this event when I debated the Catholics will testify about what I'm stating here.

I'm not someone who tries to pretend issues in my life. I have made mistakes - and I come back to admit them. I have been unfair to several people on the forum - and I came back to apologise publicly on the forum to them. I have learnt a lot form even people who are not Christians: these all (Catholics and other Christians, as well as very few Muslims; a few non-Christians) have helped me become better at handling issues. When people attack me, I have been better able to forgive - most times, I log out of my YIM or Nairaland to pray for those who are bitter towards me. If they do not understand something about me and keep accusing their misconception against me, I still thank them and forgive them. I have no fear or anger towards them: and as they go back to my previous way of doing things, they can see a real and down to earth person who frankly admits her faults and never pretends anything.

ayinba1:
If you send her email to people that may cause her harm, that will be unfair. Truth stands clear from error. Let us watch and see how far  the euphoria lasts!

I have nothing against anyone sending me threats by email. Lol, I have even received a trojan virus by a "friend" once - luckily it was my personal PC and not the one I use for study or work. I agree that truth stands clear from error - and that is why I have stated again and again that I am not interested in theological debates with Muslims. I would like those who keep sending me their venom by email to see it here again: pilgrim.1 is not interested in arguing Islam with anyone. The truth is: Jesus changed my life - and He is my Lord and Saviour. I extend the same love to all who read this, and it is my heartfelt desire that they would be blessed much more than words are theological arguments can ever convey.

Thank you and God bless you richly - in Jesus' Name.

@huxley,

huxley:
AFAIK, BB does not talk about planet formation.

(1) Okay, granted. Others have stated the following:

"The Big Bang describes how this fireball grew to form all the stars and planets
we see around us now." (BBC Science & Nature)


(2) Please note: I said earlier that the Big Bang theory is not equal to the ORIGIN of the Universe:

"Without any evidence associated with the earliest instant of the expansion,
the Big Bang theory cannot and does not provide any explanation for such
an initial condition; rather, it describes and explains the general evolution of
the universe since that instant." (Wikipedia)

The evolution of the universe is not the same thing as the ORIGIN of the universe!!!



Dear huxley, we may be slobbered with accusations of "ignorance", and we are thankful. But like I said:

_____[pilgrim.1's quote earlier]_____________________________________

"there is nothing you want to tell the public here about the BB theory that
we don't already know . . . if you wanted to discuss the Big Bang theory,
no one would bother you - we already know where to go for info about such.
______________________________________________________________


Nothing personal. . hubris and extremum are not ideal positions to assume; and we had better learn to be thinkers and not the victims of needless arguments.

Warmest regards.