₦airaland Forum

Hi again @KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
@pilgim.1
I have read all the epistles you just wrote on the false doctrine we have been discussing and all i can say is that for all your effort and painstaking attempt to confuse us, your epistle is long on matter but very shallow on points and real facts, i can't imagine how any one can correlate 1 corinthians 9:14 with tithes, there is simply no logic in that correlation, the passage at best indicates we should give to the church it says absolutely nothing about tithes.

I am grateful that at least someone can disagree with me on this subject. The problem with pilgrim.1 is that she is not one of those that will refer to tithes as "false doctrine" when God Himself nowhere referred to it as such. Although you may have read me and come off more confused than you have gained, I was actually hoping that you would directly point out what Paul meant by "Even so" in 1 Cor. 9:14, and what he possibly was referring to in verse 13 of that same passage when he said "Do you not know that. . ?"

Rather than deal with them, you only returned some shakara and gragra pronouncing it as "illogical" - and for all that, I don't see where you enunciated those verses. If you cannot deal with what Paul was referring to in verse 13, you will never be able to understand verse 14 either. The rest are excuses which I have dealth with already; and if you have not been able to enunciate otherwise, I would leave the matter in God's hands to open my eyes to further matters.

It has always been my prayer that God may lead me to speak only that which He gives us in His Word - and that is why I will never call it anything He has not called it.

With much love in Christ, blessings.

@sarmy,

(3) However, it is absolutely wrong for any pastor to call down any curse upon any Christian for not giving. . .
        ~ tithes or 10% (or any other %)
        ~ offerings
        ~ freewill offerings
        ~ vows
        ~ donations
        ~ contributions
        ~ voluntary gifts
        ~ fund raising dole

. . . or any other types of giving! It is absolutely wrong for anyone to force the Christian to give anything at all, and let me share why I'm persuaded about this being so:


            A.  The Covenant of the Christian believer

God has not called the believer into a covenant of blessings and curses. That was what obtained under the old covenant of the Mosaic Law; for when Moses pronounced the Law unto Israel, he declared: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death,  blessing and cursing. ." [Deut. 30:19]. The old covenant is not applied upon the life of the Christian believer, because it was ratified by the blood of bulls and goats (Heb. 9:19-20) - this blood ratifying was not able to take away our sins (Heb. 10:4).

However (and this is the big part that those pastors miss out), the new covenant promises better things that the old covenant of curses (Heb. 12:24). How can God place a curse on those He Himself had sanctified with the Blood of His own Son?!? Yes, there are Christians who fail in many things - but because of the Blood of Christ, God is on a covenant where He promised that there is NO CONDEMNATION to the Christian (Romans 8:1). Let me humbly say this (God cover my mouth): 'Any pastor who tries to place a curse on any Christian for anything at all is simply misunderstanding the new covenant power of Jesus' Blood.'

Beloved, you do not ever have to feel condemned, bitter or lose your peace when a "pastor" cries out such curses on you - if you are a Christian, you are not under the old covenant of 'blessings and curses'; rather, you are under the New Covenant of Jesus' Blood that speaks better things on your behalf!


            B.  The Priesthood of the Christian believer

We have dealt with this earlier, and noted that the Christian life is based upon the priesthood of Melchizedek! What does this mean for the Christian? Very simply this:

              (a) the weakness in the Levitical priesthood is that
               it was made without an oath
               where men cannot continue in that office because of death
               (Hebrews 7:21 & 23);

              (b) the veracity of the Melchizedek priesthood is that
               it was established upon the power of an endless life
               (Hebrews 7:16).

How is it that "pastors" who preach the New Covenant of Christ are still making the huge mistake of calling the weakness of the Levitical priesthood upon "Melchizedek Christians"?!?   God did not call us to a fellowship where the priesthood is based upon "death" - rather, He called us into fellowship with His own Son, Jesus Christ, who is testified to be the living perpetually!!


            C.  The Power of the Christian Tithes

As we have seen, the real intent of the tithes is that it points to the "best part" or "hallowed part" of all our offerings to God (Num. 18:29). Many people who do not realize this are the ones who quickly want to call down curses upon Christians for not tithing - and what this means, is that they are making the very same mistake for which God rebuked the priests in Malachi 1:6-7!! How did this happen? Let's see:

                      A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master:
                      if then I be a Father, where is mine honour?
                      and if I be a Master, where is my fear?
                      saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name.

                      And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
                      Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say,
                      Wherein have we polluted thee?
                      In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.

Can you just picture what is going on here?!? Can you imagine that the accusation is directly at the priests - and why? Because they ~
           
                      - despised His Name
                      - pronounced His Table as "contemptible"
                      - offered polluted bread on His altar

In NT terms, when "pastors" offer polluted bread, they are directly despising God's Name. How? Because, a misleading message that confuses believers and make them bitter and rebellious is directly referred to as 'offering polluted bread and treating God's Word as contemptible.' This is the situation that happened earlier on in Israel's history where the two sons of Samuel were abusing the priesthood and making people to rebel against His Word.


I could add a few other things, but the point I am trying to make is that I do not think it is healthy to use Malachi 3 or any other verse in the Bible (OT or NT) to either force, cajole, manipulate, compel, or demand Christians to give anything! Even when Paul noted that the Lord had ordained this very ministry for Christians in 1 Cor. 9:14, he did not curse the Corinthians for failing to obey that ordinance; but rather set an example of appealing to their consciences and understanding by referring to the principle of Numbers 18:21. For pastors who are calling down curses upon any Christian, I sincerely pray that their eyes may be opened more to see the covenant, priesthood, and power of the Christian calling.

God bless you plenty.

Hi @sarmy,

sarmy:
@Pilgrim

Ummm! and you said you no be pastor!

Lol, I go lie again? I no qualify by any means to carry that badge O!

sarmy:
Seriously speaking, I think you need to write a book on tithe.

Many people have said about the same thing. For the meantime, I just want to share my thoughts from my heart; and if I ever get to actually write that book, I would like it to be the product of experience and maturity rather than head knowledge. Of course, many people have shared deep matters with me on this subject; but I would not like to put anything on the shelf until it has been severely criticised and assessed by very mature Christians who can keenly detect any misunderstandings thereto that I might not have seen.

sarmy:
If this is how pastors are preaching it, many may understand better, you've really dealt with it,

Well, I would rather say that you guys have brought out the very best in this subject - I only synthesised them into a neat outline.

sarmy:
I still have one question, though and I may not bother you again

Please do - there are many more questions to be answered: and as many questions to make us understand this issue will be helpful.

sarmy:
- Would it be appropriate to use Mal 3:8-10 to enforce tithe to the body of Christ, I know you have indirectly answered this but for clarity sake, I need a DIRECT answer. Many Thanks  

Remain blessed

Well, my direct answer is NO; albeit we can gain some principles from that passage if we begin to read from verse 7 to 12 inclusive. Let me explain why I'm not so inclined to directly use Mal. 3:8-10 to push the agenda of tithe.

(1) verse 8 - this is a pivotal question that God asks every believer, and it is not limited to just the Jews under the old covenant. The question is: "Can a man rob God?" Rather than try to clobber someone else with that verse, what I do is sit down in my closet and seriously ask myself this question: "My dear pilgrim.1, in what ways have you been robbing God?" The answers were refreshing and I had to repent accordingly:

       (a) we rob God when we fail to give Him the glory due to His Name [Psa. 29:2]

       (b) we rob God when we fail to give God the things that belong to Him [Mark 12:17]

       (c) we also rob God by giving inferior and worthless service to Him [Mal. 1:8 & 13]

And God Himself answers that question directly in verse 8 ~~

       (d) "Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings" [Mal. 3:8]


(2) The problem now is this: if we accept that in the NT we can give "offerings" (whether 'freewill offerings' or any other type), is it true that we should give "tithes" as Christians? I believe that we are encouraged to give tithes - that's why I discussed the subject from 1 Cor. 9:13-14 and Numbers 18:21. If the Jews had failed to keep God's ordinances in Malachi 3:7, are we any better if we fail to keep what the Lord had ordained in 1 Cor. 9:14? In other words, if the Jews had 'robbed' God (metaphorically) in Malachi 3, are we any better when we fail like them to give what He has "ordained" in 1 Cor. 9:14?

@sarmy,

Many thanks for your submissions and a few other questions which you brought up. If they had been dealt with in my previous repostes the last few days, I would have skipped along and attended to other issues. However, although a few of them have been touched upon, others would need to be examined.

sarmy: If we look at this critically, not giving exalt tenth of ones income and calling it tithe is more grivious of a sin than not paying tithe at all, . .

Okay, please look again at issue #4 above in my reposte as to why I do not hold tithes to be always and only 10%. People who always assume it to be so have sadly not examined the real issue about what the tithes are pointing to – which is that, tithes are pointing to the ‘best part’ or ‘hallowed part’ of all our offerings to God (cf. Num. 18:29 – ‘of all the best thereof’). That is the real import of tithing, and not the amount one calculates.

sarmy: if we look at the example of Ananih and Sapphira, they wanted to give like others but not exalt amount they aught to have given, and it attracted serious penalty.

Well, I don’t think that “exact amount” was the real matter with Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. They had a choice to have done whatever they wanted to do with their money (v. 4 – “whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?”). However, the real problem was lying about their real intention – “thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God” ( vv.4 & 8).

sarmy: When you bring tithe to the alter as demanded in most churches, you are saying for this period, this is exact tenth of all my income, increases, bonuses, gifts etc
If you are a business man, you'll need to ensure your accountant did a good job calculating your exact profit.

The moment we begin to understand that the real issue of tithing is not the amount calculated in %, then it becomes easier to see what exactly God wants the believer to be occupied with. Let us not be preoccupied with exactitude of amounts or figures – the real import of tithes and offerings are far beyond that.

sarmy: From this forum, it seems some support gross while others net income, should we say as led by the Spirit of God since this is not specifically stated in the new testament how tithe is to be paid, except in the old testament where we have different types of it but money unsupported.

In both the OT and NT, believers are led to give as the Spirit of God led them. This is why we read in such texts as Exodus 35:21 about “every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing”. For this to happen, the Spirit of God would no doubt had led them in that event, as is demonstrated in the following verses where it is God Himself Who moves the hearts of people for His cause:

‘And Moses called Bezaleel and Aholiab, and every wise hearted man,
in whose heart the LORD had put wisdom , even every one whose heart
stirred him up to come unto the work to do it’ ~~ [Exodus 36:2]

‘Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin,
and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised ,
to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem’ ~~ [Ezra 1:5]

This principle is no less true, for it is the Spirit of God that leads the Christian as well to give of his/her substance for the glory of God (Rom. 15:16).

sarmy: Let's assume Local church as you said but, does it mean there is no liberty to give tithe to other churches in need if we are in position to help, especially if we also get from them, spiritual nourishment

By all means we can give tithes in support of the ministry of other local churhces. This was even practiced among Christians in the apostolic era (cf. 2 Cor. 8:2 & 14). However, we are encouraged to be mindful to administer our tithes in our local churches – for that is where God identifies each believer (cf. vs. 24).

Many blessings.

Now, let’s consider a few other things that many people still have as issues when dealing with tithing as for Christians.


(1) But the word “tithes” or “tithing” is not found in the NT.

This is one of the basic mistakes people use as arguments for not understanding the subject. However, the words ‘tithe’ (Matt. 23:23), ‘tithes’ (Luke 18:12 & Hebrews 7:6, 8, 9), and ‘tenth/tenth parts’ (Hebrews 7:2 & 4) appear in the NT as referenced (using the KJV). Of these references, the first (Matt. 23:23) shows that it was not condemned even by the Lord; while the second set of references discuss this issue on various principles.


(2) But then, we are not under the LAW but under grace.

True, and neither is tithe dealth with in the Bible as being only a matter of the LAW. Abraham was not under the LAW when he gave tithes to Melchizedek; and the principle of Abraham’s faith is a clear pointer for the Christian under the new covenant (see Galatians 3:7). When someone remains so cemented on the idea that “tithes = LAW”, then it would be difficult for such people to see what actually moved Abraham to give tithes to Melchizedek in the first place.


(3) But isn’t it true that tithing is based on the Levites?

More than that, the epistle to the Hebrews helps us to understand that a basic question to ask in matters of the tithes is this: “Under what priesthood are Christians called to tithe?” The simple answer is the Melchizedek Priesthood, and not the Levitical priesthood – both of which are directly contrasted in Hebrews 7:8. That is why I have often consistently stated that I do not argue the principle of NT tithing under the Law, because that would mean that we are still treating tithes under the Levitical priesthood instead of the Melchizedek priesthood.


(4) But is tithe not always 10% of our income?

Unfortunately, I’m not of those who see it as always and only 10%. Why not so? For the plain reason that the principle of tithes is stated clearly in Num. 18:29 to be simply the ‘best/principal/hallowed part’ of our offerings. This is why the ‘heave offering’ of the Levites (which was their own tithes) is only 1% of all the value of the tithes they received from Israel. This 1% is known sometimes as “the tithe of the tithes” (Neh. 10:38); and there is a difference between 1% and 10%. On very rare occasions, other people have given 100% of everything they had (eg., the widow’s mites or farthing – Luke 21:2-4). So, if someone is looking for exactly 10%, they have missed the very essence of what tithing points to – which is the ‘best/hallowed part’ of our offerings. This is why the NT does not stipulate an exact figure, but simply says that it should be ‘according to what a man has purposed in his heart’ (2 Cor. 9:7).


(5) But doesn’t tithe make ministers to be manipulative?

That is not a problem at all to me – for what is it really that man has not manipulated under the sun? Is it money matters for filthy lucre’s sake (Titus 1:11)? Is it matters related to the Lord’s Supper to the extent of drunkenness (1 Cor. 11:20-21)? Or is it matters about our freedom in Christ that others have turned into licentiousness and lasciviousness (Jude 4)? None of these abuses of men should drive us to the extremes of assuming that these matters are all “false doctrines”! Just because someone turns the Lord’s Supper into something else does not mean I should start going about with accusations of referring to it as “false Lord’s Supper” and then decide no longer to partake of the Table of the Lord – such an idea is unhealthy. For those who have manipulated this ministry of the tithes to feed their lust, they shall be dealt with by the Lord Himself. For me, it is my happy privilege to obey what He has “ordained” (1 Cor. 9:14).


(6) But won’t people think that tithes are like ‘rewards’ for service?

Again, I have no problem with that. The Bible clearly says that those who minister the Word to the saints should be counted worthy of their rewards – and there are several instances to this in the NT:

‘Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour,
especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out
the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.’ ~ [1 Tim. 5:17-18]

‘. . .for the workman is worthy of his meat’ ~ [Matt. 10:10].

‘. . or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
. . If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing
if we shall reap your carnal things?’ ~ [1 Cor. 9:4-14]



(7) But isn’t tithes a false doctrine that will embitter many Christians?

I understand that many people will become bitter and assume that they know what the Bible teaches about tithes, whereas they simply don’t know that much. Often, I come across many believers who complain that their pastors are teaching “this false doctrine” and they consequently become so bitter. The one thing I ask them is this: please take your Bible in your hand, and show me where God called it a “false doctrine”. The result has always been the same – they often refer to what one pastor somewhere said, did, or thought; but they never are able to show where God calls it what they have alleged.

There really is no need to be bitter simply because we assume we “know” so much about this issue. Most often, this bitterness springs from a pride that needs to be checked by the truth of God’s Word itself. My prayer daily is that God may teach me His Word so powerfully that it will knock me off my tightly held presumptions - so that when I speak the Word, doubts are dissolved and blessings ensue. If I habour any pride or bitterness, believe me – that prayer will never have been answered.

The subject of tithing in the Bible (OT and NT) is not a ‘false doctrine’. We become bitter many times because we accuse it of things which the Word of God never calls it. We need to sit down and radically ask ourselves some serious questions before assuming that everyone else is wrong and we are right! Bottomline is that, if we don’t want to tithe, God does not force us to. Even though He has ordained this ministry for Christians (1 Cor. 9:14), He will not force it upon any one of His children. It is up to each one of us to either humble our hearts in repentance and seek to obey what He ordained; or otherwise be contentious about this matter and live in wranggling with our brethren who are tithers.


(8) But can’t a Christian just “give” without tithing?

Indeed, the Christian may choose to just merely “give” without tithing – and the question is: “Give WHAT”? Sometimes we get into the funny habit of using semantics that hide our poverty and yet fail to understand that this attitude tends to rebellion. For example, there is no place where we read of “freewill offering(s)” in the N[/b]ew [b]T[/b]estament. Every reference to that term is in the LAW and the prophets of the [b]OT – go and check it out! A few examples using the KJV:

Leviticus 22:21 Leviticus 22:23 Leviticus 23:38
Numbers 15:3 Numbers 29:39 Deuteronomy 16:10
Deuteronomy 23:23 Ezra 1:4 Ezra 3:5
Ezra 7:16 Ezra 8:28

But the funny thing is that the same Christians who kick against the tithes are very much at ease to speak of giving “freewill offerings”. Let’s think for a moment: why give “FREEWILL OFFERINGS” and quarrel against “TITHES” when both of these terms were used in the OT and the former does not even appear in the NT?!? We have seen that tithes were spoken of in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 in reference to Numbers 18:21; and we can understand that the apostles were careful to point our hearts to the real meaning of this ministry instead of being stuck on whether it is called ‘tithes. . . freewill offerings. . . firstfruits. . .vows. . . or heave offerings’.

Of course, there are myriads of other questions to be answered. However, I’ve limited myself to the basic ones that we have been considering so far as germane to the present stage of our discussions.

Blessings all.

I now come to the issue of where we find the ‘instruction’ for Christian tithing.

KunleOshob:
So what is it predicated on, or better still what is the biblical basis or instruction for christian tithing??

(C) The instruction for Christian tithing – a divine principle

The apostles instruct us with regards to this matter by pointing out something which many people often miss – the fact that even in the NT, such a ministry is said to have been ordained by the Lord (1 Cor. 9:14). Although I have reiterated this point several times, it seems the time has come to discuss it at length and share reasons why this is so for the Christian.

1 Corinthians 9:14 states: “Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.”

The words “even so” should indicate that the apostle was connecting verse 14 with the previous verse 13 –

‘Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things
live of the things of the temple?
and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?’

When he asked the question “Do you not know”, what immediately comes to mind is that the apostle was calling our attention back to the scenario in the OT, particularly as exemplified in Numbers 18. What does he want us to know? There are two things he highlights in 1 Cor. 9:13 ~~

(a) those who minister about holy things – thus, ‘the Temple’
(b) they which wait at the altar – thus, ‘partakers with the altar’

Both concepts are enunciated in Numbers 18:3 & 5 where they are thus called (a) the charge of all the Tabernacle; and (b) the charge of the Altar. However, as far as ministry to the congregation is concerned, the LORD in verse 6 tells us that the Levites were “a gift* for the LORD, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation”; but they were not to attend upon the vessels of the sanctuary and the altar (see v.3).

Now, when the apostle in 1 Cor. 9:13 noted that “they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple”, he most certainly must have been referring to Numberse 18:21 in relation to tithes given to the Levites for their sustenance in the service of the LORD:

“I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance,
for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle
of the congregation.”

After the apostle draws our attention to the fact above, he immediately tells us in 1 Cor. 9:14 that: “EVEN SO hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.”

It was a clear case of saying that “JUST AS” we find the Levites living on the tithes in Numbers 18:21, “EVEN SO” the Lord had ordained the very same thing for Christian ministers under the new covenant. He does not ask us to legalistically apply the Law under the old covenant; rather, he draws from the example (or ‘principle’) of the ministry of the Levites and concludes that “even so” the Lord Himself had ordained this minsitry for Christians under the New Covenant. People who have been looking for the term “tithes” in the NT will do very well to study 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, and that was why I have been asking for several pages now what is meant by the apostle’s statement there.


*(compare Eph. 4:8, 11-12 where Christian minsiters are also a gift to the Body of Christ)

@KunleOshob,

Well, let me try and spend some time answering some of the issues that have been raised. It’s been quite a day and it’s interesting to know that the thread has grown.

KunleOshob:
So what is it predicated on, or better still what is the biblical basis or instruction for christian tithing??

First, let me answer the first two highlights in your enquiry: predication and basis of Christian tithing.

(A) It is predicated on faith, not on the “Law”.

The Bible shows clearly that the Law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12); but the problem with many people is that they always set their eyes on “the Law” when discussing tithes - and that is how they miss what moved Abraham to offer tithes to Melchizedek even where there was no “Law” for him to do so (Genesis 14:20). No less than three times in Hebrews it is said that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:2, 4 & 6) – and not a single time was this said to have been based on a “Law” that compelled him to do so.


(B) The basis of Christian tithing is the Melchizedek Priesthood

Tithing under the ‘Law’ was based on the Levitical priesthood, for under it (the Levitical priesthood) the people received the Law (Heb. 7:11). It was under that ‘Law’ that the Levites had a “commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law” (v.5).

On the other hand, Christians are called to a new covenant based on the priesthood of Melchizedek (and not after the Levitical priesthood). The Melchizedek priesthood is not based on the Law, but rather is according to the power of an endless life (see Heb. 7:15-16). These two priesthoods are in direct contrast; and the climax of this contrast as regards the tithes is given in Hebrews 7:8 (AMP) –

(A) Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood]
tithes are received by men who are subject to death;

(B) while there [in the case of Melchizedek],
they are received by one of whom
it is testified that he lives [perpetually]”

When one considers issues about Christian tithes, the first question to ask is: on what basis are men called to tithe? Since the Bible shows that it is on the basis of priesthoods, one then has to understand that the distinction between them by recognizing that:

(a) under the Law, tithes were given according to the Levitical priesthood
(b) under the New Covenant, tithes are received according to
the Melchizedek priest hood.

The fact that ‘the less is blessed by the better’ (Heb. 7:7) should make us understand why even Levi was said to have paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham (v. 9-10).

More to come, my bros. Hope you're doing well?

Hi there @m_nwankwo,

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=173782.msg2913692#msg2913692 date=1223484395]I see your point but I do not agree with it.[/quote]It’s okay, as everyone is entitled to disagree with anyone else.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=173782.msg2913692#msg2913692 date=1223484395]I also do not think we are going round in circles for each of us has made his or her points pretty clear. The discordance from my perpective is that I see the message of Jesus Christ as independent and an authority in itself. Thus his divine statements belongs only to God the father.[/quote]The basic question is this: if Jesus’ divine statements belong only to God the Father, is that message different from what is recorded in the Bible? You see, the difficulty for you guys to simply acknowledge that the Bible is TRUTH is why you will keep making these circular assertions of what belongs to the Father and yet playing round the question of what is recorded in the Bible.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=173782.msg2913692#msg2913692 date=1223484395]He who is blessed to draw from God the father can render the exact words of Jesus without recourse to reading or studyng the reports of others about the life and mission of Jesus Christ.[/quote]Good – then in this case you can toss the books of Abd-Ru-Shin away and seek alone to draw directly from God the Father! If you really believe in your own assertions, please don’t come back and make a case for any ideas of Abd-Ru-Shin, because it would be completely a waste of time to make such imploding statements and yet worry over Abd-Ru-Shin’s books.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=173782.msg2913692#msg2913692 date=1223484395]My submissions have always been that the Grail Message draws from God the Father. The Grail Message can therefore cite the statements of Jesus Christ since the statements of Jesus Christ is the Truth and issued directly from God the Father.[/quote]Which brings us back to the same thing: since “the statements of Jesus Christ is the Truth” which issued directly from God the Father, why is it so difficult for you guys to humbly acknowledge the Bible as that TRUTH where Jesus’ statements are found?!? This is why we keep going round in circles and making so much motion and yet no movement from the same busstop. It is a very simple thing that does not need these circular complications for yourselves. Jesus’ statements are the Truth – but what then is wrong with the Bible where that same Truth is found? You may disagree with the Bible all you can; but so far you are making implosive statements which suffer sudden inward collapse.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=173782.msg2913692#msg2913692 date=1223484395]Your argument seems to be that since some of the words that Jesus said are found in the bible, then the Grail Message must have "lifted" the words from the bible. My perception is that the author of the Grail Message know the teachings of Jesus Christ since both messages issued from the same source, that is from God. The author of the Grail Message did not get the knowlege of the teachings of Jesus Christ by studying the bible or any other book but because he draws the Truth from out of God the Father. Stay blessed.[/quote]This is simply an assertion that is seriously weak and unconvincing. A man who claims to have drawn directly from God the Father without reference from the Bible should not have been referring to the Biblical “prophecies” upon which he based his discussions of ‘The Star of Bethlehem’ and referring to the fulfillment of “the prophecies”. What “Prophecies”, if I may ask? Where do you get to know about “the prophecies” he referred to, if not from the Bible? You may argue that it is not so; but that would leave your ideas hanging in the air, because if asked to produce the “prophecies” that Mr. Abd-Ru-Shin was referring to, you definitely would have nothing to offer. It is up to you to find a more convincing argument for your case than mere assertions which up until now are not having any substance on the ground.

Whatever disagreements anyone may have, my point is cogent enough to point you back to the Bible. One cannot keep making statements that hang in the air about some “prophecies” which no one can read, other than just merely asserting that Mr Shin drew them directly from the father. If you asked Mr. Shin what exactly he drew from the Father as regards those “prophecies”, and you will come back with nothing at all. Why? Because you would only be referring to those “prophecies” without a clue what exactly those prophecies actually state. What then are we to make with mere assumptions and assertions with no concrete reference to read those prophecies directly for ourselves?

Earlier, I stated this :
_____________________________________________
‘I only need the book that Abd-Ru-Shin was referring to
when he mentioned the prophecies’
_____________________________________________

. . . but rather than refer me to those prophecies, I got the same refrain over and over again that “Abdrushin drew from the Truth”, and yet we don’t know what “prophecies” he was referring to; nor have you been able to provide any pointers thereto. Having failed to proffer any pointers, it sounds like you just hoped that we would take your assertions for granted and there - end of the story!

Anyhow, enjoy.

[quote author=plus_Queen link=topic=119423.msg2915248#msg2915248 date=1223506016]the name is actually pidgin english.
maryam na marry am
it's easy to decode these things[/quote]Haa! See me olodo! I for don decode tey-tey!
How body bo?

Crop Circles – An Intro

                ___________________________________________________________________

                  Crop circles are patterns created by the flattening of crops such as wheat, barley,
                  rapeseed (also called "canola", rye, corn, linseed and soy. The term was first used
                  by researcher Colin Andrews to describe simple circles he was researching.

                  Although since 1990 the circles have evolved into complex geometries, the term
                 "circle" has stuck. Various hypotheses have been offered to explain their formation,
                  ranging from the naturalistic to the paranormal.

                  Naturalistic explanations include man-made hoaxes or geological anomalies,
                  while paranormal explanations include formation by UFOs. Many circles are known
                  to be man-made, such as those created by Doug Bower, Dave Chorley, and
                  John Lundberg,  and a 2000 study into circle hoaxing concluded that 80 percent
                  of UK circles were definitely man-made. Bower and Chorley were awarded an
                  Ig Nobel Prize in 1992 for their crop circle hoaxing.   

                  ~~~ Source:  Wikipedia
                ___________________________________________________________________


                 https://www.nextnature.net/research/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/003_crop.jpg

                 https://www.nextnature.net/research/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/002_crop.jpg

                 https://www.nextnature.net/research/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/036_crop.jpg

                 https://www.nextnature.net/research/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/046_crop.jpg

                 https://www.nextnature.net/research/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/047_crop.jpg

                 Picture credits: Next Nature

@reindeer,

My beloved, how are you getting on? I've been hoping all these days to drop you a line or two; but been a bit occupied. Well, here's a huge hug in the love of Christ to you. . . enjoy His mercies everyday. Blessings.

KunleOshob:
@pilgrim.1 and others interested in "our Orphic world"
Another amazing website i would like you to visit is http://www.s8int.com/ it took me weeks to go through this site and i was really mesmerized, truly there is soo much evidence of unexplainable amazing things that have happened on this planet and are still happening. I am sure we all would learn a lot from this site. Another beautiful thing is that the site provides a lot of factual evidence of God and amazing biblical incidences. The section on the human dna and the complex language (real language) it was written it is mind blowing. Truly this site answers a lot of questions much as it poses a lot more.

@KunleOshob,

Infact, I cannot thank you enough for helping out in sharing these matters. Just as reindeer has stated already, it is a really packed site. The highlighted parts in your quote should now be more helpful to capture the essence of this thread, especially for those offline who are wondering about my interest in these matters. Lol, actually it was meant to start out as an experiment particularly for those who are too polarised to the naturalistic worldview, so that they understand that there are supernatural phenomena in our world which the naturalistic worldview does not explain. It is okay for some people to hold unto rationalism; but how then do they account for events that are clearly “orphic” occurences?

I’m still looking at the UFO and Crop Circle connection at the moment.  Certainly, some of those crop cirlces are clearly man-made, and they artists have documented their talenst about such. However, these artists have not trie to imitate the phenomena of UFOs, so we can relax now and concentrate on the crop circles that are not man-made.

Anyhow, I would like to first share some of the amazing photos of intricate crop circle designs, before discussing a few others that are suspected to have been supernaturally produced by alien forces. Enjoy.

MC Usman:
Ma[b]rr[/b]y = Maryam

Hmm, how come ma[b]rr[/b]y has become the same as the name ‘Maryam’. . are you thinking of a bride?

Hmmm. . . why e be say na only women you dey think of for this matter?

Lord Jesus, we thank You for the glory of Your Name. Around the world, Your Name is known in every tribe and tongue, and we thank You even for India and the Buddhists who persecute those belonging to You. Lord, we continue to pray for the situation in India that those who persecute may find peace in their hearts through Your Name; that our brethren will stand firm by Your grace through this difficult time; and in all things, a might refreshing will visit that nation to bring many souls to Your love and saving grace. Thank You, Lord Jesus.

Still I Rise - Yolanda Adams

Verse 1:
Shattered, but I’m not broken,
wounded, but time will heal.
Heavy the load, the cross I bear;
lonely the road I try, I bare.

Verse 2:
Shaken, but here I stand,
weary, still I press on.
Long are the nights, the tears I cry,
dark are the days, no sun in the sky.

Chorus 1:
Yet still I rise, never to give up,
never to give in against all odds.
Yet still I rise high above the clouds;
at times I feel low, yet still I rise.

Verse 3:
Troubled, but not in despair,
struggling, yet I make my way through.
Trials, they come to make me strong,
I must endure, I must hold on.

Chorus 1

Bridge:
Above all my problems,
above all my eyes can see;
knowing God is able to strengthen me,
to strengthen me.

Chorus 2:
Yet still I rise, never to give up,
never to give in against all odds.
Yet still I rise high above the clouds;
at times I feel low, yet still I;
I need to know which way to go, yet still I;
at times I feel low, yet still I rise;
yet still I rise.

God our Father, we continue to thank You for all blessings received for Bisi and her family.
May Your holy Name continue to be ever praised. Halleluyah, Jesus is Lord.

This is beautiful. The challenges of life are very real – and the resources we have in Christ are even more real to carry out through every stage and bring us standing in His love. Our difficulties are not all the same; and sometimes indeed, we come to that stage in our lives when we feel as though we are abandoned. But only as the wind blows against the trees do the trunks stand stronger.

Romans 8:37

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Some who read a few of my entries on Nairaland and contacted me have invited me to some of their Assemblies of God Church services. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed honouring those invitations, and thought that others may benefit from some of the messages which those friends offered me. From time to time, as more are being made available, they will be offered here as well.

From Manchester First Assembly (aka First Assembly of God – Manchester, New Hampshire)

        By Pastor Garry:  (window media required)

        Setting A Guard Around Your Heart  - mp3 message
        It’s Time To Be The Church – mp3 message

Cheers.

At any rate, we can all enjoy the various hairdos that people wear from around the world and across all cultures. Do you have any interesting pictures to share that may awaken our appreciation for the styles of cultures we may never have come across or dreamt about? Please do share. . . I’m actually crazy about HAIR!

                           Disclaimer!
                           Please don’t try experimenting with these styles for church or job interviews –
                           I will not be held liable for any unfavourable outcomes!

Here are a few I came across:

[img]http://www.toniguy-erie.edu/images/2008/AvantGarde1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.phys.virginia.edu/Education/Bitmaps/Hair1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.rugbyheaven.co.nz/images/329547.jpg[/img]

https://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/135438865_db2a48b2ee.jpg?v=0

kobomoje:
i am well aware of all the scritures u all quoted and their appropriateness, however did any of u guys overlooked Rom. 14:14? which i think is fundamental.
u see, everyone cannot share the same view on a particular issue, but i think it's wrong or unfair to force one's opinion on someoneelse.

It is interesting how we apply scripture to various issues in life. Romans 14:14 does not stand all by itself, and when weighed in the schema of our faith, it comes as one of those issues that we should forebear with when relating with our brethren. That is why verse 13 speaks of not laying a stumbling block in our brothers’ way; and verse 15 speaks about not seeking to force our preferences with disregard for the welfare of others. Verse 14 does not take precedence over the previous and preceding verses – so it helps to keep these issues well in balance. To force v. 14 over the other two verses is simply to prefer our own ways over the call to walk in charity (v. 15).

In Christ, . . .

[list][li]. . .I live without condemnation [Romans 8:1][/li][/list]

[list][li]. . .I am inseparable from God’s love [Romans 8:38-39][/li][/list]

[list][li]. . .I am more than a conqueror [Romans 8:37][/li][/list]

[list][li]. . .I am sanctified [1 Cor. 1:2 and Heb. 10:10][/li][/list]

[list][li]. . .I am a child of God by faith [Galatians 3:26][/li][/list]

[list][li]. . . I am blessed aith all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies [Eph. 1:3][/li][/list]

[list][li]. . . the vail is taken away from my mind,
so I can rejoice in reading the Scriptures [2 Cor. 3:14][/li][/list]

I think this a quite an interesting topic to be discussed, and one which almost everyone is welcome to participate in – whether married, divorced, bachelors and spinters. I’m sure we all have something to say as to how we envisage what a healthy marriage should look like.

Even though a few folks like myself do not have so much practical experience in this matter, at least we could say a few things. A successful marriage should have true love and common shared interests between the couple. We are all different in our ways as men and women; but a man and a woman entering into marriage would understand that they are sharing a common life together for the rest of their experiences on earth.

Love, trust, respect and commitment are some of the commonly shared interests we all desire to have in our marriages – but it is the realty of life that challenge the true value of these interests and show us who we really are in a marriage.

Oya, over to others – make una say something!

Proverbs 15:4

A wholesome tongue is a tree of life:
but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

drlawng:
Grace giving which is according to what you pupose in your heart and how God has blessed you = New testament

Tithe = Old testament

Hmm, have you carefully checked out your interpretation about the bold?

Sorry folks. . . I've been quite busy all day and could not have been here any earlier. Hope you all had a very wonderful day.



@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
[quote author=pilgrim.1]That is because tithing for the Christian is not predicated upon the Law of Moses.

So what is it predicated on, or better still what is the biblical basis or instruction for christian tithing??[/quote]Well, perhaps I should start by asking you to closely read 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 and help us understand what the apostle meant by the clause "Even so" in verse 14. While I'm waiting, I might hang around for a while and see if I could chip in one or teo things in response to other entries.

Cheers.

No be only 'Evolution' o. . . another theory still dey here to share. Enjoy.


Nobel Prize for Asymmetrical Universe

Two Japanese and American win physics Nobel

By Niklas Pollard Reuters - Tuesday, October 7 05:41 pm

_________________________________________________________________________

[img]http://d.yimg.com/i/ng/ne/rtrs/20081007/13/1698426468-kyoto-university-emeritus-professor-toshihide-maskawa-speaks-during-news-conference.jpg?x=180&y=142&q=75&sig=W7d6Zg2W_I9G2N9NY5lndQ--[/img]

STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - Two Japanese scientists and a Tokyo-born American shared
the 2008 Nobel Prize for physics for helping explain why the universe is asymmetrical
and thus fit for life, the prize committee said on Tuesday.

The Nobel committee lauded Yoichiro Nambu, now of the University of Chicago, and
Makoto Kobayashi and Toshihide Maskawa of Japan for work that helped show why
the universe is made up mostly of matter and not anti-matter via processes known
as broken symmetries.

"The fact that our world does not behave perfectly symmetrically is due to deviations
from symmetry at the microscopic level," the committee said. This broken symmetry
allowed particles of matter to outnumber particles of anti-matter.

This is lucky for all living things -- because if the universe were symmetrical, anti-matter
would be constantly meeting matter, and exploding.

The work, done in the 1960s and 1970s, predicted the behaviour of the tiny particles
known as quarks and underlies the Standard Model, which unites three of the four
fundamental forces of nature: the strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force and
electromagnetic force, leaving out gravity.

"Professor Nambu laid a really theoretical foundation for modern particle physics,"
Sakue Yamada, emeritus professor of the University of Tokyo, told Kyodo news.

Nambu also influenced the development of quantum chromodynamics, which
describes some interactions between protons and neutrons, which make up atoms,
and the quarks that make up the protons and neutrons.


SHARED PRIZE

He shared half of the 10 million Swedish crown ($1.4 million) prize with Kobayashi
of Japan's High Energy Accelerator Research Organisation and Maskawa of Kyoto
University.

Kobayashi and Maskawa predicted there were three families of quarks, instead of
the two then known. Their calculations played out as predicted in high-energy
particle physics experiments and there are now six known types of quarks -- up,
down, strange, charm, bottom, and top.

Kobayashi said the news of his Nobel prize came as a shock. "It is my great honour
and I can't believe this," he said.

Maskawa said he was not surprised.

"There is a pattern to how the Nobel prize is awarded," he was quoted as saying by
Kyodo. "I am very happy that Professor Yoichiro Nambu was awarded. I myself am not
that happy."

A surprised Nambu greeted reporters and photographers at his three-story brick home.
"I don't know about the money yet," Nambu, 87, told Reuters.

Physicists are now searching for the spontaneous broken symmetry, the Higgs mechanism,
which threw the universe into imbalance at the time of the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago.

Scientists at the Large Hadron Collider at the European Organisation for Nuclear Research,
or CERN, in Switzerland will be looking for the Higgs particle when they restart the collider
in spring 2009.

The prize, awarded by the Nobel Committee for Physics at the Royal Swedish Academy of
Sciences, was the second of this year's crop of Nobel prizes.

The prizes are given annually for achievements in science, peace, literature and economics.
The prizes bearing the name of Alfred Nobel were first awarded in 1901 in accordance with
the 1895 will of the Swedish dynamite millionaire.

(Additional reporting by Chisa Fujioka in Tokyo, Michael Kahn in London,
John Gress and Mike Conlon in Chicago; writing by Niklas Pollard and
Maggie Fox, editing by Patricia Zengerle)

_______________________________________________________________

source: Yahoo News.

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:
@pilgrim
How body, me I no dey happy here at all, thread wey I take dey teach sunday school them just lock am without notice self

Look at this gentleman! How can you ever hope to teach Sunday school on a Tuesday?

Hehe, just teasing you. Hmm, what can one say? I wish there was a way I could make you feel a bit happier though.

Chrisbenogor:
Yes I know but I was talking about the thread as a whole, anyway sha no be new thing no be today nyash dey back.

Okay, na you talk.

Hosea 8:2
Israel shall cry unto me, My God, we know thee.

Chrisbenogor:
again picking one to obey and leaving the others

Lol, generalizations are not a healthy position to adopt. Reading issues out of [b]con[/b]text is [b]pre[/b]text, and it doesn't have to be interpretations on the Bible alone - it applies to any document. However, eisegesis and exegesis are not the same thing; and to be mindless about them will not yield any benefit to anyone.