₦airaland Forum

@huxley,

huxley:
Yes absolutely, I needed to spell that out as loudly as I did.  It is about time we stop pussy-footing about and confront the issue head-on

Aiight, I now know that it were better leaving you to your irrationality. Even when people have to discuss issues, reason would not celebrate such otiose remarks; but it's not in my place to change your ideas if that's what best suits your ideology. Tomorrow, come back and hoot that your worldview is "rational" - we would be indeed convinced by your confirmation here.

huxley:
That is indeed a very good question.  But it is not explained by the Big Bang.

What is there more to say if your theory fails at the very thing suggested by your topic about "Universe Origin"? Thanks very much, though - I see the point in your addressing others the way you did when you don't have answers to the questions you proposed.

Cheers.

[quote author=all-4-u link=topic=179422.msg2898306#msg2898306 date=1223235593]Should Christians listen to secular music? What's your opinion?[/quote]@all-4-u, it depends on what you mean by secular music.



You may want to see the following for a few other entries on the subject:

Gospel Music Versus Secular Music

Is Listening To Secular Music Wrong?

Should Fuji Music Be Allowed In Church?

"The Sad Truth About Hip Hop" <chain letter>

Do You Think Nigeria Presently Has Any Creative Gospel Music Artiste

huxley:
Some Christian consistently bury their heads in the sand and refuse to look at the evidence of the most powerful explanation for the origin and state of the universe. Why this is so, can only be put down to dishonest, stupidity, ignorance or delusion.

Thank you, but did you need the vituperations highlighted in yours just to sell your point?

In case we missed it, what is the origin of the matter that gave rise to the Big Bang?

@Olabowale,

Now, your own "orphic world" is becoming really bewildering.

olabowale:
@Pilgrim.1: « #42 on: Today at 08:22:40 PM »
If you want to follow a thing with true conviction, it must be a followership of every part of it! You for example pick and choose Bible parts! Then if I use this to measure your rejoicing, it is not without deficiencies!

Thank you. Are you not presenting your own "pick and choose" Islamic CV for us to see? If you are happy to let me live my Biblical faith without being a selective picker like you, then why is it soooooo difficult to let me simply worship God as the Bible says by calling Him "FATHER"? That same Romans you quoted refers to Jesus Christ as "Lord" (Romans 5:1) and "God" (Romans 9:5), and if you don't believe in "picking and choosing", you can as well let me live my faith without trying to define it with your brigandry, thank you.

olabowale:
If I were a hypocrite, I will not call you on a very important point, which by the way is very agreeable to Muslims; why worshipping the creation, while refusing to worship the Creator wholeheartedly and solely?

Does the "important" point include referring to God as "FATHER"? If it does not, then there's nothing important in what you're forcing yourself to present here. And No, Islam does not define the Christian faith for me, thank you.

olabowale:
Allah may not be God for you, it is your lack of knowledge about absolute truth that speaks therein.

There is no absolute truth in Islam in as much as you will not want Christians to live as the Bible defines their faith for them - the very thing that the Quran directly acknowledges!

olabowale:
I on the other hand, do not do this with the Qur'an. It is every letter, word and sentence with me!

Good, then you can go and breathe your Quran and let me be.

olabowale:
But Jesus was not in the religion of christianity. He did not start it nor has any knowledge of it! Read your Bible again.

I read the Bible, and you must be a very queer person to assume that Christ had no clue about His crucifixion (Matt. 26:2) and His resurrection (Matt. 20:17-19) - and you're asking me to read the Bible "again"?!? What really is wrong with you?

olabowale:
Ilove Jesus, as much as I love all the other prophets (AS), before him! His love for me is not an unusual thing. Afterall, he and i worship the same Lord, Allah the irrestitable!

Good. . . I have hope for you that you will soon taste of the love of Jesus and your testimony will be even more powerful than mine. May God make it a reality for you, amen.

olabowale:
Jesus needed safety, which was his reason he prayed and cried before the was arrested.

John 18:4.

olabowale:
Why would would i half step to my Creator, when He is informed me that my channel to Hims is without any obstruction? Allah is Akbar. I don't even need Muhammad (AS) for this. Yet I am in the time of his prophethood. How do you think I will regress to even an earlier Prophet?

Actually, someone told me that I should just pray that you will confess the very same highlighted part in your quote - and that is what has happened. I am happy that you do not need Muhammad - according to you. Each day my prayers are being fulfilled that you will soon begin to draw away from your Islam and as you continue following me around the forum, you will soon come to know the love of Jesus more than what you read in my testimony. Jesus is love.

olabowale:
It will be like somebody in the time of Ibrahim (AS) rejecting him for say Noah (AS) an earlier prophet! Thats pure disbelief!

The unbelief is beginning to manifest in your quotes - and soon you will know the power of Jesus' Name. Shalom and God bless you.

@Olabowale,

olabowale:
@Pilgrim.1: « #13 on: Yesterday at 12:08:02 AM »
Now then, Pilgrim.1, how is it that you can't follow the instructions of this simple and direct verse, Romans 1: 25, above? Is there a creator other than the One single Creator; Allah in Arabic, Eloi in Hebrew, whom Jesus cried to on the "Cross," God in English, and in my Yoruba ethnic tongue, Oluwa? Is anyone deserving a part of the worship due to this Supreme Deity, God Almighty the Creator?

Why then do you worship the creation who clearly worshipped the Creator, while you refuse to prostrate your face to the Irrestitable God Almighty Allah Azawaja?

Allah is not God for me. If you are so driven to ask me to follow the Bible, I am doing so and rejoicing in the same God who is known as FATHER by the prophets of the Bible. Please don't humour me with this retired gimmick of quoting the Bible and asking me to obey it when you are the very last to believe in it! What kind of hypocrisy is that?

If you want to become a Christian and then enjoy the message of the Bible, the invitation is still open - Jesus loves you and will save you the very moment you receive Him into your heart. There is no quarelling or logic about it - Jesus is Lord.

Shalom.

Olabowale,

olabowale:
@Pilgrim.1: « #6 on: October 03, 2008, 11:54 PM »
Woman, you would have impressed me, if God of Christians; be it the father god, son god, ghost god, or even Jesus, or trinity was written on anything, in get this; the language of which any of it was spoken "originally," before the Europeans took over from the Semitic Children of Israel!

Lol, my dear sir, you are really sounding like a child. This thread is not about impressing anyone - much less about seeking to impress you! Who do you think you are? I'm sad for those who reason the way you do; because the one thing you're failing to understand is that the thread is bringing people's attention to the "orphic" phenomena in our world. These issues are not the designs or handycraft of pilgrim.1 - so what is this hilarity of yours about seeking to impress you?!?

Many people argue that such phenomena do not exist - no paranormal events, no "orphic" phenomena, nothing extending beyond the present natural and physical world. The debate about UFOs, for instance, has been around for ages and many people in public arena have denounced them as hoaxes. Events which people do not like to consider are cleverly swept under the carpet with fanciful diction - that's why they ascribe them to clichés that sound intelligent (such as simulacra, apophenia, or pareidolia), whereas very real cases of "orphic" phenomena have been attested to exist! We are not hearing the skeptics shouting "hoaxes" anymore, unless such people would like to remain largely ignorant of these realities.

Now, when it comes to "cluster illusions" as in the case of the alligator with the word 'G-O-D' written on its side, the point was not to impress you; but rather to share with others that these issues do not necessarily drive us to wage a contest of which animals have 'allah' on its bellies more than any other religion! Must you seek to turn every thread into an errand platform for the "allah", even when you can't see the purpose of the thread?

You really need to calm down and be more sensible than this unnecessary gesticulations. You're not making any sense at all by behaving this way. Please read the topic of a thread, and flow with it before you arrive at a tangent that puts your ideas way beyond the feel of a current thread. You just make me laugh by supposing however slightly that I should have impressed you! Haa!

olabowale:
Is the word GOD on the side of the alligator an indication of Christian God, of any of the 3 gods?

Is the word "allah" on the sides of an egg an indication of what Muslims worship?

olabowale:
Why not in Hebrew and I want to see how you will wrestle that "Hebrew wording," away from the Jews/children of Israel, who will definitely claim that you, a Christian have no single god, but gods.

This thread is not about "wrestling", Olabowale. I am so sorry that your desire to draw me into a debate is not working. I'm done with Islam, and sadly for your lot if you can't take it in.

olabowale:
And as a matter of fact you borrowed the idea of Godship from them!

You're such a laugh! Go back and read your Islamic history as a first course.

@elctroguru,

elctroguru:
So much differences in one religion even up to d general campus fellowship here in my sch where all campus xtians fellowship are 2 attend All Campus Christian Fellowship [ACCF] every 1st sunday of d month but some Campus Fellowships like Jehova witness & others will never Join them in the congregational worship. why?

Rather than repeat the answers given by others, I would just add some observations.

When one talks about so much differences, they abound in almost every facet of human endeavour. There are differences among Muslims in Islam; differences among Christians; differences among atheists; differences among evolutionary biologists; differences among politicians; differences among orientalists; differences among citizens of any single nation; differences among brethren living under one roof. . . you name them, and you will find differences in almost every facet of human endeavour.

When one assumes that mere differences within any particular group of any worldview necessarily questions the veracity of its adherents, you simply apply it to your preferred worldview and you can add the numbers. Why should it then be only the differences in Christianity that people talk about and never reference any other group by the same rule of thumb?

Hmmm, interesting inputs. It's remarkable that more people are inclined to hold the basic principle in discussions like this: nobody will force you if you have made up your mind to not give anything. One doesn't have to use excuses from the Bible to buttress a disinclination to give anything. Cheers.

I would like very much for God to touch the heart of someone I met today - who's going through a very serious issue and contemplating some very sad moments for herself.

I will ever praise Your Name, Jesus my Love.

pussylover:
I don't think i am the only one bothered by you. There are hundreds of people on nairaland that depise and hate your guts. There are also thousands of people, mostly muslims that feel irritated by the sight of you. Your nothing but a back stabbber and betrayer of a faith that once fed you and made you what you are.

Thank you once again for your compliments. God bless you for all you've said about me.

Another age-old concern that many people formerly discounted and officially claimed were hoaxes. It only gets interesting when the people who mostly discounted such phenomena were politicians. So, what would one think when other politicians are publicly testifying that they have witnessed such phenomena?

Here's an example of such a twist of events where public testimony is given as witnesses to the phenomenon of UFOs. Enjoy:


[list][list][size=14pt]Politician and Pilot Spot UFO[/size][/list][/list]

[list][list]Posted on Tuesday, 30 September, 2008 | 5:44 [/list][/list]

[list][list]https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/images/news/ufotriangle5.jpg[/list][/list]

[list][list]The truth is out there - and if a senior garda, a Fianna Fail politician and a pilot are to be believed, aliens are keeping a close eye on us from above. Dramatic eye-witness testimony was heard at a conference over the weekend which, delegates were told, provided "definitive" proof of recent UFO activity in the skies around north Dublin and Meath.Footage, filmed on a camera phone at 10.35pm on August 3 near Dunboyne was also played and replayed to over 70 delegates who attended the fifth Irish International UFO conference in Carrick-on-Shannon.The triangular shaped image, with lights at each point, which appeared to send a red laser-type light towards earth, drew gasps of amazement from the 70 or so delegates who attended the world premiere of the footage. A senior garda officer who was driving when he noticed the unusual light formation in the sky stopped to film it."There is no footage like this in the world. It is the most amazing and spectacular I have ever seen," said Carl Nally, co-founder of UFO and Paranormal Research Ireland and joint author of 'Conspiracy of Silence'.Five days earlier, on July 29, an off-duty pilot who photographed lightning from Howth pier just after midnight later noticed what appeared to be a triangular-shaped object to the right of the lightning fork in the developed image.And Fianna Fail Town Councillor in Trim, Jimmy Peppard, ran indoors for a camera on August 8 when he spotted a triangular-shaped object measuring "about a mile in diameter" in the sky, where it remained static for about half an hour.

"What we have here is sightings of three objects east, west and south-east of Dublin airport, each five days apart by reliable and trained observers and even since I have arrived here I have received another image from a pilot," Mr Nally told the conference.He later described the laser beam footage as the best footage on the planet and said it would be shown all over the world. "This is what the sceptics are crying out for. What all this footage has in common is that trained observers, honest people, took it.[/list][/list]

[list][list]source: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/viewnews.php?id=136560 [/list][/list]

pussylover:
pilgrim your really a bad person in the way you address issues and drive home your point.

Thank you, I know who is talking. You don't have to be the only person disturbed about pilgrim.1, though. God bless you for seeing me as a bad person. Cheers.

@sleekmag,

sleekymag:
@pilgrim.1

I must commend you for your insightful posts. Keep up the good work.

I appreciate your contributions as well and wish I could be as brief as yours. Sometimes I relax and feel that the thread should progress before I say something more.

Enjoy your Sunday.

@sarmy,

sarmy:
@pilgrim
pilgrim, I really appreciate your wisdom and knowledge especially in trying to proof this issue but I will like you to try and understand other views and be open minded, I've learnt from you from this conversation but I think most of the time you close your mind to others point of view.

Thank you for your graciousness. To be fair, it appears that I sound 'closed minded' to other people's entries. Quite to the contrary. Often times I would have preferred to not say anything and let discussions progress with several inputs before I weigh in on the subject. However, it is true that I have been quite firm with some particular entries, and that is for one or two reasons:

    (a) because such discussants make unwarranted statements and assert them as "Scriptural"

    (b) because such discussants use very derogatory language against others inclined to tithe.

A case in point: Yomisays is not a new name on this matter; but we know he was wrong on several issues (a few of which I highlighted in my repostes) and made unwarranted statements as if they were what Scripture teaches. But what did this result in? You please visit his webpage and read some of the responses from his adulators! Everyone else who discusses issues with them are thieves, liars, ole, foolish, or engaged in manipulation! I'm not an authority or umpire on this matter; and others have pointed out a few things (quoting Galatians 6:6, 1 Timothy 5:17-18 and 1 Corinthians 9:11-15) to show him where he possibly might be wrong. But no! The default position is that such enquirers are necessarily more than wrong: they are thieves!

Such kinds of attitudes are reasons why I'm often firm when posting replies to such people. If they don't know, it were better to say 'I don't know' than to make unwarranted statements and assert them as what the Bible teaches.

sarmy:
No one is saying giving is not good, all we are saying is that it should be done as someone under grace not under law, the amount or percentage is not the problem but must be done with the right mind, not as being forced, threatened with hell fire etc quoting word of God out of context for support.

You will have noticed something consistent in my entries in this subject: I have often and again asked people to calm down and look away from the LAW and rather examine the PRINCIPLES - which no less is saying that we consider the grace behind the giving of tithes. But because many people start and remain on the LAW everytime when discussing this issue, they cannot see anything else. I sympathise with those who are under pastors that use the LAW to cajole, manipulate, and compel them to give anything (I mean "any" kind of giving - including free will offerings). However, those pastors do not define the Biblical position for us - and I'm quick to say that is not sufficient reason to refer to tithes as a lie, a fraud, or a false doctrine. Just because someone abuses something Scriptural does not warrant us to misname the very thing God has ordained for our blessing.

sarmy:
One other thing my sister, you said tithe precedes the law and we kept saying there are other things we can no longer enforce like circumstition, you did not respond, after all, Abraham circumcised his sons even before the law, should we now continue to enforce it as tithe is parallel to circumstition.

Lol, indeed I deliberately did not say a word thereto - because I have already examined that issue many times (if you want to go back to earlier entries on this thread). Perhaps occasion might serve us a good turn to look again at the issue if there are fresh questions.

sarmy:
Lastly, as I said before, there is no any child of God who will not like to give to God, either 10% or more or even 100%, I think we should discourage using the word of God to force others to pay tithe, or that it started before the law and binding on all Christian, even when it is not the requirement for making heaven.

You can be sure that I have always refrained from using the word "force" or even "binding" on anyone. Why? Because the Bible will not force you as a Christian to do anything! Even if the "Christian" wants to abuse his privileges, the Bible will not force or bind him otherwise. When the apostle noted that the Lord had ordained the very same thing for the Christian (1 Cor. 9:14), he did not argue to make it a compulsion or force or make it binding on anyone - indeed he stated clearly that it was not so written so that people would start feeling they must do it unto him (verse 15).

People who argue this, that, and the other, can very well save their pennies - it is not a compulsion that they should obey what the Lord had ordained (1 Cor. 9:14). When we meet Him, He will reward the arguments accordingly. One thing I know is that a contentious spirit against God's Word does not fetch a bright prospect (Rom. 2:8-9).

sarmy:
Since as they normally say it's for God, why are they so passionate about it more than some sinful acts of today and holliness, no matter what you do to make money if you bring tithe to church regularly, pastor will like you but if you don't pay, its the other way, I hope you know why.

I know why, my dear brother. Unfortunately, what most pastors do or say should not force anyone to take a position of disobedience to God's Word. The truth we know will help us be strong in His grace; but to let go of His Word because someone is abusing certain privileges is quite an unfortunate position to assume.

God bless you.

Nimshi:
Hebrews 7:18-19
18 The old rule is done away with. It was weak and useless.

The "old rule" did not originate the concept and principle of tithes. Thus, Hebrews 7:8 reminds us to be mindful of Him who receives them, "of Whom it is witnessed that He liveth".

otokx:
the stories have been so inspiring but why are some people trying to emphasize one religion or the other? virtue in practice cuts across so many boundaries and is an individual thing.

@otokx,
Thank you for that succinct post, highlighting what I already have said much ealier:

[quote author=pilgrim.1]We need to appreciate that there are still people with integrity that inspire us in our day - and it doesn't have to be a worthy news based on religion[/quote]

---

@ALL,

It should help us to mind the topic of the thread and share worthy news that we all can benefit from. That has been the reason why I've made this appeal several times over and tried to refrain from theological arguments. I beg those who are hungry for a debate to take their misgivings elsewhere and demonstrate some sense of maturity.

Thank you and God bless all your days.

idupaul:
This one's spooky.

I thought so as well.

Backslider:
There is nothing like alliens or that TV make belief. What you see is demons trying to come on earth Physically because they know their time is up so that can Prevent the true return of the son of God.

Okay, at least that is one of the reactions to such things that I said will follow. As for me, I have often stated that I don't have the answers and am not going to pretend even one. What I don't know, I can't assert. The one thing is that these things happen - and people react to them.

Cheers.

@tribalist,

tribalist:
Well i wont be doing it for the past, i will be doing it for the present and future for those who don't know you now to see how you have loved to persecute catholics from time immemorial without any justification.

Lol, my reply hasn't changed - because not many people are "new" as you presume. My concerns are about why it is only you that actually is disturbed about my posts. All the same, if you are doing it to help you feel better, please enjoy so you can have peace.

Grace to you.

Another Pareidolia?

There is another type of manifestation that many people have struggled to understand. This is quite different from the apparitions of religious icons, though; but it seems that while some have denounced them as hoaxes, others are asking that we hang on a bit and take a closer look at such phenomena. What does one make of such experiences as the one below?


           [size=14pt]Mysterious 'ghostly' face of child
      appears in mobile phone photo of teen pals[/size]

           By DANIEL BATES
           ___________________________________________________________________

            https://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/01_04/zghost2NNP_468x308.jpg

            At first glance, it seems to be an ordinary snap of a group of young people. But look
            more carefully and there appears to be an extraordinary, ghostly presence among
            them. Peeping out between the knees of two of the girls is the face of a child.

            The eerie image - clear enough to show a pair of eyes, a nose, a mouth and hair -
            was captured by 17-year-old Matthew Summers on his mobile phone as he and his
            friends were preparing to go out. "I zoomed in to my sister's mate's little sister who
            was crying and I saw a face," Matthew said. "You can see all the facial expressions
            and everything."

            "Usually when you see pictures like that it's a blur but this one is really weird.I was
            really shocked because I don't believe in that stuff." Matthew took the picture in his
            sister's friend's front room in Billingham, Teesside. "I've sent it to my girlfriend and
            she thinks it's a bit weird," he added.

             However, Ciaran O'Keeffe, a parapsychologist on Living TV's Most Haunted show,
             has a more down-to-earth explanation for the "child" in Matthew's photograph.
             Dr O'Keeffe said: "As human beings we're very good at finding a pattern in
             randomness and related to that we're good at finding faces in randomness.
             The term for this is pareidolia. "First it was ink blots, then things like clouds in the sky
             and now mobile phone pictures. "There is no ghost in this picture, just the coincidental
             effect of pixelation and darkness and light which combine together."
           ___________________________________________________________________

           Source: Mail Online

@tribalist,

tribalist:
@pilgrim:

don't worry, since you picked up a line or 2 about me sluring you, definately i would go and bring out the roaster of all the terrible things you have ever said on naira land to destroy other people's religions or faiths. We would now compare and contrast. I hope that would sound fair in respect of you starting the personal blame game. Whenever someone says a general statement, you take it upon your self to finger a particular person but when the same is being said of you, you begin to give concoted excuses to explain the validity of your actions.

Haha! I knew you would fall for that game. I only asked you a simple question which Gamine was quick to catch. . . but not so with you, for you would rather be driven to "compare and contrast".

But hey, wait a minute - why are you complaining as if your faith or religion have been destroyed? Why is it that you're the only Catholic so disturbed about this issue that you complain like this, tribalist? If at the end you "compare and contrast", will that rebuild your faith and make you feel any better? I'm just wondering. And besides, after the adventures, you would still have to answer the basic questions I asked about practising what you preach to others.

tribalist:
In fact with all the terrible things you have said over time, its enough to start a libelous bible in favour of your own church or bible.

Lol, tribalist. . . na wah for you! Na so d thing dey pain you? It doesn't have to go down that road, you know; and no other person is complaining. What happened to your approbation of "ignoring" me? Infact sef, I prefer to be ignored if my posts and arguments are not helping you. But as I have often said in the past, to be bothered about what somneone doesn't feel comfy with, is to automatically help the restlessness. This is why often I hinted that there's a better way to do things - but if that won't help, what more can be done?

tribalist:
don't worry, i would soon provide a catalogue of your inspirational words for all to see

Please do - you'd be repeating a needless enterprise that others have seen. By the time you're done, please go back and take care of your own situation by answering the same question I offered:

"would it be fair at all if God forgave you for your aspersions against other people?"

Blessings.

huxley:
I deliberately and proudly expunged faith from my being and took up the banner of reason.

>snip<

I was faced with two options; retreat into faith, blind faith, to believe in the absence of evidence or in spite of evidence to the contrary.

Uhm. . . ^>cough!<

                       _________________________________________________________

         Question:  "What do you believe is true even though you cannot prove it?"


         Richard Dawkins: Evolutionary biologist, Oxford University; author, "The Ancestor's Tale"

                       "I believe, but I cannot prove, that all life, all intelligence, all creativity
                        and all "design" anywhere in the universe, is the direct or indirect
                        product of Darwinian natural selection. It follows that design comes late
                        in the universe, after a period of Darwinian evolution. Design cannot
                        precede evolution and therefore cannot underlie the universe."
                       _________________________________________________________

           Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/04/science/04edgehed.html?pagewanted=1


Did you say "blind faith, to believe in the absence of evidence"? Okay, we hear.

@tribalist,

tribalist:
Sometimes i wonder how some of you go to bad with a peace of mind that you have actually abused and ridiculed another persons religion or denomination and later pray to the same God, thanking him for the grace he has given you to pour out venoms and opibrum on other faiths and denominations.

Do you also go to bed with a peace of mind after actually abusing other people with lines as this below? >>
________________________________________________ [here]

"You are really a devilish and fermentor of problems."
________________________________________________

tribalist:
One only wonders if at the end of the day one of the faiths or dnominations been brutally castigated now is actually the choice of God. What will God do to you?

But what will God do to you after you have been guilty of slurring other people directly?

tribalist:
If at the end of the day, God decides to forgive them, that will be very very unfair on behalf of the faiths and denominations that didnt start these wicked show of religious shame

Hmm, would it be fair at all if God forgave you for your aspersions against other people?

@anonimi,

anonimi:
I am sure you do not equate the saints to God or do you

Please go back and read what I answered to instead of jumping the issue. Yomi was saying this:

________________________________________

Do we have instructions in the new testament to give “offerings” to God?
________________________________________

. . and my response was to quote the verses directly to show that the apostle INSTRUCTED such offerings to be collected. If it was a matter of such offerings made "to God", I also gave him the necessary verses in the body of my reposte.

anonimi:
I notice you conveniently skipped responding to my earlier post on verse 12 of Hebrews 7 and the importance of Christ's fulfilling work vis-a-vis the OT laws, including that of tithes which was operational until His death and ressurection. Still thinking about what response to spin

I don't have any responses to spin, for the simply reason that I'm not a broken record trying to repeat myself endlessly on the matter. How come you guys often conveniently duck the important mention of Abraham and Melchizedek and only see the LAW?

anonimi:
I believe it is also clear enough in your above quote that what you give is for those who minister and NOT God as the 419, fraudsters would want us to believe and put people in a guilt trap.

Lol, those who are feeling the "guilt trap" are the very ones who are conveniently selling their disobedience. My remedy is simple: if they don't want to give, they should simply save their pennies and not accuse people of what they themselves can't keep. I have repeatedly stated that we should be careful what we say about this matter and check to see that we don't accuse the Word just anyhow. I'm least interested about what men have turned it into; and that is why I refrain from arguing along such lines. The fraudsters or 419 are not my problem - and for those who always want to bury their minds on that, good luck to them.

anonimi:
You should check your other NT quotes to ascertain if the people were asked to give/gave to God or Jesus Christ specifically and not to fellow brethren in need as well as minister's basic needs (as opposed to luxury).

Making sweeping statements in ignorance was what I responded to. Checking the "other" verses simply states the point that Yomi was wrong in assuming extremes. There is a balance in Scripture; but often times people just assume a polarised position - and that is why the unnecessary accusations seem to occur those minds much more than what we should share for edification. Everyone is a "liar", a "thief", etc except them!

anonimi:
There are at least two things about the above quote.
First, you realise that burnt offerings/sacrifices were being offered to God under the OT and it was precisely the Levites who were offering bad quality sacrifices at His altar that the rebuke in Malachi was principally addressed to. You should read Malachi from Chapter 1 please. Thus the "offerings of God" should be understood in that context before Christ fulfilled the law as pointed out earlier with His ultimate and final sacrifice.

Dear anonimi, please calm down and read that passage again on the OFFERINGs of God in Luke 21:4!! That widow was not giving animals to be sacrificed - go back and find out what she gave!!

anonimi:
Secondly, Christ was teaching a key principle about giving, which is that it is not the absolute amount you give that matters but how it relates with your capacity to give, hence the widow was praised while the rich man was scolded. This same tenet is stated in Proverbs 11:24 "There is that scattereth, and yet increaseth; and there is that withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty."

I don't think I argued about the "principle". May I say this one more time?!? If anyone has been re-iterating anything about the "PRINCIPLE", at least you should know that I have been doing so!! Even lately, I stated it yet again (here please).

anonimi:
I hope you do understand that I and others who oppose requiring/requesting tithes of CHRISTians do not oppose giving to church activities so long as they are in line with the teachings, practice and standard set by Christ and his Apostles as recorded in the NT.

What I have seen so far and responded to is the lazy attitude of men who have rejected what the Word teaches and then come on board to preach their ignorance as if they just discovered something new. Ther hasn't been a consistency in such submissions like in Yomi's - and I highlighted an example where he was referring to "all commandments" while deploring the same thing!

I'm not fussed about anyone wanting to say something as long as they are humble enough to not assert what they don't know! Tough luck for those who always see this matter of giving as predicated on a "LAW/commandment of compulsion, force, cajoling". The same fellows then come back and admit to the same thing they set out initially to disdain! That is why I rolled my eyes at the end - these fellows should wake up and stop acting like kids!

Cheers.

@Gamine,

My dear, how r you today? The weekend's been great for us here, and I trust the same for you.

Gamine:
Man, you speak like someone Demon-possessed

Lol, G-a-mine. . . abeg sofry-sofry on our dear friend. I know tempers can run high, but let's try and help one another for His sake. Jesus is Love. Bless you.

Okay, here's another one someone sent me by email:

Undeniable Proof of Real Aliens:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=azjP1Aw6NBw


NASA shows that signs of civilizations exist on Mars and the moon.

http://www.nme.com/video/id/azjP1Aw6NBw/search/ufos

Now, again I don't know the answers and am not going to even pretend one. This thread was to help us understand that there are phenomena happening in our real world that are "orphic" - [ie., "beyond ordinary understanding"]. As the comment above mine points out, it would be unhealthy for anyone to assume that there is nothing beyond this physical life. The better thing to do is not to be brash in seeking answers; but to understand that these matters humble us where our understanding fail.

As it is sometimes YouTube "policy" to delete some vids, please access those links sharp-sharp before they disappear!



Off-line: thank you to ["b-rent"] for sharing this by email with me. Of course, I could not have known before now.

@anonimi,

Since you're only reposting Yomi's argument against his own vexations, I should treat accordingly.

anonimi: How true is it that when you give an offering at the church service, you are giving to God? Do we have instructions in the new testament to give “offerings” to God?

'Now concerning the collection for the saints,
as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.'
[1 Corinthians 16:1].

2 Corinthians 8:3-5.

anonimi: We already know the lie about tithing.

The Bible does not call tithing a "lie". Those who use their over-zealous sanctimony to accuse the Word of what it does not say need to go back and read it for what it says.

anonimi: FACT 1: There are no commandments to give to God under the new testament
Search, and find one if you can.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things
live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at
the altar are partakers with the altar?
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which
preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

Even when God ordained it in the NEW TESTAMENT, men will argue every which way to refuse and reject it. The simple thing is that it is one of the things the Lord ORDAINED in the NT, but He will not force it upon anyone to bend their necks to it.

anonimi: FACT 2: There are no examples of giving to God under the new testament
Again, search, and find one example if you can.

'For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God:
but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.' [Luke 21:4]

1 Corinthains 9:13-14

anonimi: FACT 3: All commandments and examples of giving under the new testament are about giving to the needy

This is laughable! At the very same instance that many people argue that it is NOT a "commandment", they are the same people that are yelling about "all commandments" about giving in the New Testament! Can these people try to be consistent and let us know where they stand?

Meanwhile, in Luke 21:1-4, we find an example of someone giving not about giving to the poor; rather, it was the poor that gave into the "offerings of God" out of her penury (v.4).

anonimi: I’ll give you those, if you don’t mind:

Acts 2:44-45
Act 11:28-30
2 Corinthians 8, 9
1 Timothy 6:17-19

well, 1 Corinthians 9:6-14 was not about giving to the poor - giving in support of those who are minsiters. Eh, before you hola back - read it again and find that in verse 14 it is said that the Lord hath ordained it so! Not every example in the NT was about giving to the needy.

anonimi: There may be a few ommissions, but note that none of the above is about “giving to God” (a very vague term, as I am not sure what God would do with money if anyone ever gave Him any).

This is like arguing like a child. The offerings given both in the Old and New Testament were addressed as unto God (which is what is meant by "the offerings of God" in Luke 21:4). See also:

Joshua 6:19 - "all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron,
are consecrated unto the LORD"

It was God who said directly in Malachi 3:8 that His people had robbed Him in tithes and offerings.

Exodus 35:5 - "Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD:
whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it,
an offering of the LORD; gold, and silver, and brass"

I'm sorry if I sound quite firm in this matter; but what is a put off is people claiming they know that such and such cannot be found in Scripture and therefore use that sad inference to refer to tithes as a "lie" or whatever else God never called it. It pays to simply say "I don't know", than pretend you actually know and yet duck some very important references that directly address your misgivings. If you don't want to give, simply save your money - even though God "ordained" it in the NT, He will not force it upon anyone, because both in the OT and NT these matters are said to be on the basis of "a willing heart" - nobody will cajole or compel you to do what you don't want to do.

anonimi: The Church gave to meet human needs. It wasn’t about cathedrals and (often useless) television outreaches and the like.

You don't dictate for others what their givings and offerings should be used for. Give your own, and if you can't do so, save the argument.

anonimi: It Takes Money To Spread The Gospel?
I daresay that if every individual who claims to be saved will get personally involved in witnessing and discipleship, we will discover how inexpensive it is to spread the Gospel, as we would have no need for most of the countless “Christian” TV programmes we have on air today. Of course, then that worn out line (”It takes money to spread the Gospel”) used by preachers to get their sheeple to give “to God” would die out.

I guess it takes spit to print Bibles? Run vehicles and pay transportation? Or minsiter to the physical needs of other people in very difficult places? Lol, these worn out complaints will increase - for those who never settle down to see what God says.

anonimi: Question: So, is it wrong to ask for offerings in our churches?
No; not necesarrily. It would depend on what the offerings are used for and what people are told. Churches often meet in halls today, for example; so it may be okay if we agree to collect offerings to support paying the rent, or helping the needy, or some other good cause.

^{>"No, not necessarrily". . ."support paying the rent". . . bla-bla<} [rolls eyes]

anonimi: Let’s just be sure not to tell the people that they are giving to God.

Then write another "bible' and remove those verses where you find the answers. Enjoy.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
@pilgrim
I already explained my definition of fraudulent and false tithes to you, we have biblical tithing and we have modern day corrupted version of tithing, i won't say more.

Good to know you can't say anymore. The Bible did not describe tithes as "fraudulent" or "false doctrine", regardless of what men have turned it into. Just for people to react and let their passions fly to make statement that are unwarranted by God's Word simply demonstrates what they don't know.

KunleOshob:
@sleeky mag
You people keep dancing round in circles and quoting the bible out of context. In deuteronomy 14 : 24& 25 you quoted, you deliberately left out verse 26 which said what you should use the money for. The money was meant to still purchase food and drinks (including wine and strong drinks which tithe preaching churches preach against) it also said you should eat the food(tithes) in God's presence. Now if tithe had been meant to be money, you would not have been required to use it to purchase food items talkless of consuming it yourself. Sleeky mag the fact that you deliberately omitted verse 26 which counters your wrong position on tithes mean that you know the truth but you just like pilgrim refuse to accept it. I don't think i would be available to keep on arguing back and forth on something that is soooooo glaring

What is sooooo glaring is your fastidious argument based upon the LAW. When you open your eyes and study why Hebrews mentioned the case of Abraham and Melchizedek that came BEFORE the Law, then you will come closer to what you have been missing. People who make such arguments upon the Law have a serious problem seeing beyond it.

Enjoy.

@sarmy,

sarmy:
Thanks all, I'm learning from your posts BUT

If we are to practice it like Abraham did then

(Christian should pay tithe not necessarily every month as required in Churches today, and should be FREELY as one purposed in his heart, not by necessity for God loves cheerful giver.

(we may decide to give tithe not necessarily from regular monthly income BUT FROM OTHER SOURCES)

I appreciate your persuasions, and very much also your calm spirit in this dicussion. Thank you for keeping a cool head. That said, at least we now find a common ground on this matter - as someone had said earlier, we may not realize that we have been saying similar things. The point is this: tithing should not always conjure the idea of law, force, cajoling, and compulsion in our minds. Although, some people have made it sound like that is the case in many churches, it should not drive us therefore to claim things against the Word of God itself.

sarmy:
(pilgrim, we can not repeat everything Abraham did. On the issue of tithe, he gave it out of free will, not commanded by God, Isaac did not practice it,

Let me share something intricate with you here. I did not advocate for a cloning of Abraham's experience; and I have always spoken about the "principle" of faith demonstrated by the patriarch rather than a literal robotic application.

On the issue of tithe, true - Abraham gave out of his free will (and I'm so glad you have mentioned this point that many people often miss out). What moved this man to offer without any LAW? We understand that he had such faith that enabled him to grasp something that we take for granted today when Melchizedek met him. We don't read that Melchizedek met him every year or periodically; but the one time that august visit happened, Abraham gave tithes of all (Gen. 14:20). Even so, that one act alone affected his own progeny - so that we read that even Levi (who was not yet born) also paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham (Heb. 7:9-10).

What about Isaac? Melchizedek did not met him after that visit to his father Abraham. However, there are two things to note here: (a) Isaac is Abraham's direct seed - his own son; and would we assume that what he did in Genesis 14:20 would not have affected him as well if it could affect his progeny several generations later? (b) We don't read that Jacob actually gave tithes; but the fact that he mentioned it to testify that he knew its importance actually should make us realize that men of faith understood much more about it than we are wont to argue endlessly about it (Gen. 28:22).

sarmy:
Jesus & the Apostles no record of them paying tithe to anyone.

(a) Would you say that the Lord Jesus would be teaching others to tithe but refuse His own disciples to do what He taught others (Luke 11:42)?

(b) If the apostles were so upset about tithes as many of us advocate, why then would the apostle Paul point out its veracity in Heb. 7:8 - "but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth"?

(c) Again, the apostle points out that God will not force anyone to obey what He has ordained - even though it is true that He has ordained that those who preach the Gospel should live out of it: 1 Corinthians 9:7-14 (read and study verses 13 and 14 especially) .

sarmy:
Not everything Abraham did can be copied/paste, Jesus is the author and finisher of our FAITH

I'm not asking that we be clones of Abraham. The one thing I have often stressed is that we can follow the principle of FAITH that characterised this man's life - even as the Bible puts it in Galatians 3:7 ~~

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith,
the same are the children of Abraham."

Often, I have stressed that it is by faith (and not by LAW or force or compulsion) that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek. When we follow such faith, what then is the arguement against what the Bible teaches on this subject?

sarmy:
There is nothing wrong for children of God to give either offering or tithe like Abraham did but asking for it as IF UNDER THE LAW with concequences for not giving using mal 3:8-10 I disagree, I hope we all agree on this. Thanks

Hmm, I have often asked those discussing this subject to look away from the idea of LAW. When people base all their argument of tithes on the LAW, they will never be able to see what came before the LAW and how that one act of Abraham's faith affected even his unborn generations. It beats me how people can bind their hearts and minds and make so much of the LAW of tithes without realizing that tithes did not originate with the LAW. Like I have sated again and again, if anyone does not want to give, instead of being angry and cause their mouths to sin against the Word, simply save their money and sidon look. No wahala in the matter.

God bless you.

theopops:
Where you get all these pictures, Pilgrim?

Lol, them plenty for many websites. Hope you're doing great today?