Igboid:


Pepple told Baike that he and his Bonny people came from Igbo land.

How do you reconcile this with your claims here?
Or you want to develop selective amnesia on that very important information

Okay. Your argument is that they were Ijaw speaking when Baike met them? This is doubtful considering that CMS based the Igbo union Bible on Bonny dialect, but even if in the slightest means, that we accept this.
It would only prove that they were Igbos who switched to Ijaw language and later switched back to Igbo language they currently speak today.

And again I ask you, how does the above help your argument?

9Pluto:


I am happy to say you are the FIRST person to have posted a reasonable counter argument.
I have tried to be as neutral as possible. As you would have noticed most of my claims have been properly referenced. The updates I made on the original post have been based on brought up evidences of NEUTRAL authors. Not Igbo not ijaw authors.
I went as far as volunteering for a life debate and up till now, NOBODY has been bold enough to challenge me about, "you own history".

I wish most of you would be more objective (unless you know the truth and want to be intentionally dishonest).

Kindly properly reference your article. The name, the author's name and date of publication.

Crazybeard:


A Commentary on Duarte Pacheco Pereira's Account of the Lower Guinea Coastlands in His "Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis," and on Some Other Early Accounts
J. D. Fage
History in Africa
Vol. 7 (1980), pp. 47-80 (34 pages)
Published By: Cambridge University Press



Esmeraldo De Situ Orbis
by Pereira, Duarte Pacheco
Translated to English from Portuguese

Those are the two reference materials used.

VALENTIM FERNANDES' FIVE MAPS AND THE EARLY HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY OF SÃO TOMÉ is another good read.

Anonymous15:

Take this weeded obsolete fallacious nonesense out from my face.
You were most definitely out of data when I crushed all of these obsolete weeded, discarded hocus-pocus. Because it is no longer in the British national library because of its great fallacious stories.
Horton's works too are shoved off for even blundering greatly by saying Nembe is Igbo.
You better go back to the earlier page to clear your daftness

This is the legit information from crowther and pepple BECAUSE OF THE CONTRADICTING BLUNDERS FROM BAIKIE AND HORTON of whose both accounts do not even tally.
This is crowther's report in the mid to late 1800's, and it is with this truth that the real informations are found on every information repository around the world.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Bonny

Truthvalue41:

I am Anioma, we are not Igbos and we never have been, also we don't need anybody to claim us, we know who we are, precolonial maps and notes are there for all to see, we are Edos ! You people in the southeast are deluded, stop thinking you talk on our behalf ! We are not your osus, we are not your property. So shut your mouth about us ! We are and we will always be Edos !

Oba Ghatokpere, Issue !

9Pluto:


I am happy to say you are the FIRST person to have posted a reasonable counter argument.
I have tried to be as neutral as possible. As you would have noticed most of my claims have been properly referenced. The updates I made on the original post have been based on brought up evidences of NEUTRAL authors. Not Igbo not ijaw authors for obvious reasons.
I went as far as volunteering for a life debate and up till now, NOBODY has been bold enough to challenge me about, "you own history".

I wish most of you would be more objective (unless you know the truth and want to be intentionally dishonest).

Kindly properly reference your article. The name, the author's name and date of publication.

Meanwhile, I hope that map you uploaded wasn't from the book you referenced because I see maps of Rivers, Bayelsa and Imo State there.

Igboid:


No where in your attachment was it claimed that Bonny people are of Ijaw descent.
If there are, please mark it out.
The post you posted doesn't even contradict Baike.
It speaks only of language (which is still debatable since Bonny speak Ndoki Igbo today and earlier record noted they spoke Igbo in the past, even CMS Igbo union which Crowther was part of, used Bonny Igbo to write first Igbo Bible).
You are for all intents and purposes grasping at straws here.

9Pluto:



From my brief observation, it seems J.D. Fages History of Africa was published in 1978 and your reference clearly stated 1980.

Is none of you passionate enough about this subject to come to a live debate?

Crazybeard:

This is an outdated argument sir.

Next please...

Anonymous15:

You don't have talk

This document by pepple and crowther ended this debate a long time ago.
Dr koeller burried it.

Even your baikie in perhaps the only research he put effort in showed the counting system, and you're bringing the captain of a ship who's only duty post is the Atlantic ocean.

Come, abulo, I have supported my already true notion with pepple, crowther, koeller (a German) baikie (an English)
That is 4 people.
Bring four people who worked in Bonny and not some slave vessel transporter.

Crazybeard:

Crazybeard:

No it wasn't a map of the book.The map is to confirm the names of the Rivers and situate them properly with modern day NigerDelta.The English/present names of those rivers are in the footnote of the excerpt,so with the map one can identify properly.

horsepower102:


Who is we?

Please count me and my Enuani people out of your self hate, self delusion and confusion.

Igboid:
There is something I noted too in course of my research here.

It would appear there is a Bonny main town which they call Grand Bonny. Then there are other smaller villages which surrounds it and are part of Bonny kingdom.
For example, in the past, Opobo Kingdom included Ikot Abasi, who are actually Ibibiod speakers and Opobo town itself.

So when an explorer arrives in Ikot Abasi and start interviewing the occupants, they would say they were Opobo people, which is true, afterall King JAJA was there king and they were part of Opobo Kingdom.
But you would find out that if you collect the language of Ikot Abasi and present it as Opobo language, you would be right and also wrong. You would be wrong since the language would be Ibibiod and not Igboid as obtained in Opobo main town, and you would be right since Ikot Abasi are Opobo people and by right, their language also qualify as Opobo language.

I believe there are some Kalabari speaking (the so called Ibani language is basically Kalabari language) people that were part of Bonny kingdom.
These people lived in their own villages, considered themselves part of Bonny and paid royalty to Bonny kings.
So when an explorer land in this part of Bonny kingdom, the words he would gather would definitely be Kalabari words( modern day called Ibani) and not the Ndoki words used in Grand Bonny.

I think this could be the reason for the discrepancy in Baike reports.

Truthvalue41:


Ika, Anioma are all Edos, none of us is Igbo ! I can't wait for a civil war to finally break our again so that we can give you guys (southeasterners) a well deserved lesson. It is coming ... I suggest we redo a war against the southeast every 10 years to keep the memory fresh and avoid the usual disturbance and chest beating of the deluded Igbos.

Igboid:
Another example is the case of Agbor and Oza nogogo.

Oza nogogo are Edoid speakers who are not Igbo speaking. They are not really Ika people as they don't speak Ika, but have always been part of Agbor kingdom as they pay homage to Obi of Agbor.

If an explorer landed in Oza Village and ask them their kingdom name, they would say Agbor.
And if the explorer end up collecting words in Oza language to present as Agbor language, you will end up with Edo sounding words.

The explorer will then create ambiguity if he doesn't clarify that Ozanogogo though part of Agbor kingdom, are only but a minority there, and even though their language is an Agbor language, the people in main parts of Agbor don't speak like Ozanogogo.

I think this could be the problem with Bonny.

Igboid:


Lol!
I guess this is you admitting you have no point.
Good.

Also I found out that Koller you were quoting noted that Igbo was the most widely spoke language in Bonny when he visited, he could only offer a reason why he thought it is so. But from Baike account, we know better.

"Of all these, Ibo is the language which is most widely spoken."
~ Koller.

Crazybeard:

No it is not.Bonny's problem is straight forward.

Ijos bought Igbo slaves(mostly) and slaves from ethnic groups around.The Elders at time chose to use the language of the slaves to trade with the Europeans and other Igbo merchants from the hinterland.Their thinking as silly as it was,was to prevent outsiders (slaves et al) from learning their language.That way they could keep certain secrets.

Also,a lot of Igbo slaves were made part of the canoe houses after passing through certain rites.These slaves still had their language and they taught their children.Before long,Igbo language became dominant.

Crazybeard:

Where did I quote Koller?

What's wrong with you guys?Can you ever be straight forward?

I quoted Captain Pereira and Dr. Fage's commentary of Captain Pereira's account.

bomb24:


oga this has been trashed severally here ijos didn't own slaves. there sole existence documented during the niger expendition was abominable and nothing worthy of note to write about them, just rest.

The language in bonny has always been Igbo same with Opobo no need regurtitating this over and over again.

bomb24:


oga this has been trashed severally here ijos didn't own slaves. there sole existence documented during the niger expendition was abominable and nothing worthy of note to write about them, just rest.

The language in bonny has always been Igbo same with Opobo no need regurtitating this over and over again.

Crazybeard:

Lol...
You need to update.

First you said no early account of Ijaws,then Ijaws came from Sierra Leone bla bla bla

As far back as the 15th century,the sold slaves.

Igboid:


Your colleague was quoting Koller (German) and Baike account like it favoured him, when it actually doesn't.
Koller established that Igbo was the predominant language spoken in Bonny while Baike confirmed why it is so. ie the people trace their origin to Igboland.

I'm only trying to understand why Baike ended up with those non Igbo number system in Bonny.

Crazybeard:

No it is not.Bonny's problem is straight forward.

Ijos bought Igbo slaves(mostly) and slaves from ethnic groups around.The Elders at time chose to use the language of the slaves to trade with the Europeans and other Igbo merchants from the hinterland.Their thinking as silly as it was,was to prevent outsiders (slaves et al) from learning their language.That way they could keep certain secrets.

Also,a lot of Igbo slaves were made part of the canoe houses after passing through certain rites.These slaves still had their language and they taught their children.Before long,Igbo language became dominant.

Igboid:


They were just pirates, terrorizing the whole area.
Something they continue to do even today.

Igboid:
There is something I noted too in course of my research here.

It would appear there is a Bonny main town which they call Grand Bonny. Then there are other smaller villages which surrounds it and are part of Bonny kingdom.
For example, in the past, Opobo Kingdom included Ikot Abasi, who are actually Ibibiod speakers and Opobo town itself.

So when an explorer arrives in Ikot Abasi and start interviewing the occupants, they would say they were Opobo people, which is true, afterall King JAJA was there king and they were part of Opobo Kingdom.
But you would find out that if you collect the language of Ikot Abasi and present it as Opobo language, you would be right and also wrong. You would be wrong since the language would be Ibibiod and not Igboid as obtained in Opobo main town, and you would be right since Ikot Abasi are Opobo people and by right, their language also qualify as Opobo language.

I believe there are some Kalabari speaking (the so called Ibani language is basically Kalabari language) people that were part of Bonny kingdom.
These people lived in their own villages, considered themselves part of Bonny and paid royalty to Bonny kings.
So when an explorer land in this part of Bonny kingdom, the words he would gather would definitely be Kalabari words( modern day called Ibani) and not the Ndoki words used in Grand Bonny.

I think this could be the reason for the discrepancy in Baike reports.

bomb24:



That is not baikies work. it was written by one fumbo around 1980's. they should provide his main excerpt from his work and the exact page.

I'm going to attach an image, so i want you too carefully look below the page you will see the year and the reference.

Igboid:


Documents speaks of Jos (Izon) in the territories of Sobous( old name for Urhobo and Isoko).
This is just about the first place the Ijaws arrived in, in Nigeria, from where they spread.
This is why those Ijaws in Kolokuma areas claim to be the original home of Ijaw.
That's where your Sierra Leone ancestors first arrived.

Igboid:


Nope.
I have checked it.
It was actually Baike work.

I believe its either a mistake on part of Baike.
Or it could be that there were other non Bonny Igbo speaking villages that was part of Ancient Bonny kingdom and the number system Baike collected belonged to those villages.
For example, the old Opobo included Ikot Abasi which is Ibibio speaking and other few Ijaw speaking villages like Finima and co.
So when one speak of Opobo, one has to be deliberate in specifying that one is talking about the Igbo speaking Opobo main town, and not Kalabari speaking Villages like Finima and co who are still considered as part of Opobo Kingdom.

I made another example with Ozanogogo and Agbor.