Kobojunkie:
1. So you are under the assumption that after thousands of years of integration, they all remember their Jewish lineage?

2. The sealed are who were sent are those saved who were used by God to bring back the lost sheep of Israel beginning from the time Jesus Christ sent them out - Isaiah 66. .

3. If you reject God's own explanation to you through His prophets, I am afraid I can't help you.

---

By the way, when Paul, in his letters e.g. Galatians 3 vs 1 - 22 wrote of redemption from the curse of the Law, Paul meant the actual curse of the Law in Deuteronomy 28, and not that the Law itself was cursed.

Those redeemed from the curse are those who were scattered as a result of the curse, the lost sheep of Israel whom Jesus Christ told you He came for. For thousands of years, they had thrived and multiplied in every Nation as God Himself said. And they are the ones who God will gather back at the end. Do you realize how many generations that will be and how many there will be? Like the sands of the sea, God says.

sonmvayina:

Lol...
Jesus and Moses never existed...
So jokes on you..

OkCornel:

Then why bother quoting me when you believe they never existed?

OkCornel:


Are you so dense?

Point out where I mentioned “Moses never existed.”

You don’t have to be a shameless liar to score non existent points.

I’ve just shown you how shallow your thought process is. Since according to you, someone must reply you on nairaland as evidence of existence.

Get your single digit IQ off my mentions.

MaxInDHouse:


OkCornel i'm not your friend (sonmvayina) me i go bite you o!

OkCornel:

Kobojunkie, Galatians 3 v 26-29;

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Pretty much explains why faithful Israelites and gentiles would be priests in God’s kingdom as Revelation 5 v 9 states.

OkCornel:
1. Israelites knew their identity even though they were in exile. In exile, they never forgot they were Israelites.

2. Why are they referred to by their Israeli tribes? Instead of being labelled as “persons from every tribe”?

3. Nope, I’m rejecting your explanation. Not the barefaced truth of the scriptures.

Kobojunkie:
So Paul's opinion and your interpretation of his claims is God in this for you? Ok.

OkCornel:
How convenient. It becomes Paul’s opinion and interpretation when it goes against your viewpoint.
But the Torah and Old Testament prophets is not the authors’ opinion and interpretation. Or the gospels for that matter.
Double standards isn’t it?

Kobojunkie:
1. Where is this written in scripture?
2. Are they not persons? Were they not scattered to every part of the world by God, and as such, could they not be described as persons from every tribe in the world?
3. My explanation? You make a mistake there when you cling to my explanation as I instead expect you to adhere instead to that declared by God and not my explanation.If you cannot do that then this is wasted.

OkCornel:
1. Hello? Babylonian exile is an example. The Israelites still knew their identities and which tribes they belonged to. The books of Nehemiah and Ezra gives further insight.

2. If the persons from every tribe were Israelites, John would have labelled that out clearly. Revelation 7 makes it clear. The sealing of the 144,000, they were clearly identified as Israelites.

Again, how does the “12 tribes of Israel”automatically translate to “persons (not Israelites) from every tribe” in Revelation 7 v 9?

Where did John state these persons are Israelites?

3. Says the person who denies Melchizedek is a priest of God forever. Something so direct and plainly written in Hebrew 7 v 1-3.

Kobojunkie:
1. But where in scripture did God state that all those who He sends to all ends of the world will remember their Israelite roots?

2. The 144000 were not scattered all over the world across thousands of years. They were picked from right among the Jews that existed in the area of Jerusalem beginning at the time of Jesus Christ. However, John did label them clearly.

3. I didn't deny Melchizedek the story. And I already made it abundantly clear that for this conversation, the mention of the story is meaningless since the concern is around God's promise made specifically those descended from the line of Jacob - Not Isaac, and not Abraham but Jacob.

OkCornel:
1. Irrelevant question. Isaiah 66 still gives a clear distinction between the Israelites and the gentiles.

2. Nobody ever mentioned the 144,000 will be scattered abroad. The point here’s, John clearly labelled the 144,000 as Israelites. Why didn’t John explicitly call the persons from ALL TRIBES in Revelation 7 v 9 Israelites?

Where did John label the persons from all tribes In Revelation 7 v 9 as Israelites.

3. Brilliant! Then it’s not only Israelites that’ll serve as priests forever in God’s kingdom! Unless you’re implying Melchizedek is an Israelite too.

Kobojunkie:
1. The question is quite relevant since again, God never said they would all remember their roots, so you assumption that they should all is not based on that declared by God who instead said many of the people will worship other gods, abandoning His own Law, in those foreign lands they find themselves in.

2. Again, John clearly indicated who the people would be in all of the cases mentioned. You don't accept the details in the description given of these people do not change this fact.

3. Again, I didn't deny Melchizedek the story. And I already made it abundantly clear that for this conversation, the mention of the story is meaningless since the concern is around God's promise made specifically those descended from the line of Jacob - Not Isaac, and not Abraham but Jacob.

Clue: Jacob is Israel, and those descended from Jacob are the children of Israel to whom the promise was made.

OkCornel:
1. Whether they remember their roots or not, Isaiah 66 still labelled the ones scattered abroad as Israelites. When did the “12 tribes of Israel “ automatically translate to “persons from every tribe” per Revelation 7 v 9?

Where did apostle John label the uncountable multitude in Revelation 7 v 9 as Israelites?
2. Again where did John label the uncountable multitude in Revelation 7 v 9 as Israelites? Where in the book of Revelation?
3. Thanks! It’s not only Israelites that’ll serve as priests in God’s kingdom. Melchizedek who’s not an Israelite is also God’s priest forever per Hebrews 7 v 3.

Kobojunkie:
I see you have nothing different to add again.

Anyways, as I previously indicated, they were scattered as a result of their being under the curse of the Law of Moses, and that curse is the reason why God sent them all to all ends of the earth. And it is for this reason that Jesus Christ had to become a curse under the Law of Moses - dying on a tree is a curse under the Law of Moses - in order to redeem them from the curse of the Law of Moses

OkCornel:
I’ve heard all these before.

Kobojunkie:
OK then!

OkCornel:
2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


The above verse clearly shows the believers would be very much around when the lawless one (the antichrist) who would defile God's temple would be revealed - Daniel 9 v 27, Revelation 13 v 9-10 and Matthew 24 v 15.

Ken4Christ:


Believers will not be on earth when the lawless one is revealed.

The rapture of the church will take place before that time. Details later.

OkCornel:


So why did Paul mention the gathering of the saints unto Christ will not happen until the lawless one is revealed?
Read 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 slowly. Trigger word, "THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL"

For starters, who was Paul referring to in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1?
And what did Paul mean by "our being gathered unto him"?

Ken4Christ:


Our being gathered together unto him is not the same as being caught up together to meet him.

Ken4Christ:


There are two comings of the Lord. The first is the rapture. This is when we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. He will not come down to earth on this occasion.

Ken4Christ:


The reference you gave is the second coming of Christ. This is the the rapture. And we will come with him also.

Ken4Christ:


This is the gathering together unto him that Paul wrote about.

Revelation 19:11-14
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And THE ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

How could we follow him to battle if we are not already with him in heaven? The spirit of believers in heaven who have died cannot come down to earth to battle as they do not have a physical body. It's only possible to come back with him to fight if we have put on our bodies. And this will happen during the rapture when we will put on a new glorified body.

Ken4Christ:

Jude confirmed this when he wrote;

Jude 1
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him

So the account you are quoting is the second coming of Christ and not the rapture of the church.

OkCornel:

How are they different events when Paul was referring to the church? What exactly is the difference GATHERED TOGETHER & CAUGHT UP TOGETHER?


Paul never thought any different from Jesus. Where did Jesus mention his second coming would be two phases? Did Jesus mention this in Matthew 24, that he will come twice?

Please show me where the rapture will happen in Matthew 24.


Where did Jesus mention he’ll come twice in his second coming in Matthew 24?



You’re contradicting yourself. In all of John’s visions of heaven in the book of Revelation, he never saw believers that were raptured away to
escape the great tribulation.

John referred to those who bear the testimony of Jesus as the believers. John also called himself as one who bore the testimony of Jesus.

In Revelation 13 v 10 - The dragon is given authority to persecute believers hence they are encouraged to endure.

Revelation 13 v 10;

10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.




Again, the first resurrection happens after the great tribulation, and when the beast and false prophet is defeated at the Armageddon battle.

The first resurrection happens only in Revelation 20. Show us where John saw the first resurrection in two different batches in the book of Revelation.

Ken4Christ:


Matthew 24 was about the second coming of Christ and not the rapture of the church.

Off course, it made mention of rapture also but it is the rapture of the elect which is 144,000 Jews sealed in Revelation 7.

The explanation for the two comings of Christ will take several pages but let me try to be as brief as possible.

We do know that right now that Isreal as a nation rejected Christ. And it is their rejection that made room for us to be saved.

So, Israel is experiencing spiritual blindness for now. And that blindness will remain until God is through with the church which is mainly from the Gentile nation. Apostle Paul affirmed this when he wrote;

Romans 11:25-26
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. note

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

The present church age will end with the rapture of the church and the great tribulation those who missed the rapture will go through.

The raptured saints are the four beast in the book of Revelation. Revelation 5:9 affirms they are the redeem of the Lord.

The tribulation saints who missed the rapture were seen in heaven in Revelation 7:13-17.

It is after the seven trumpet judgment that God will resume his dealing with the Jews.

And God's dealing with the Jews resumed by the prophetic ministry of two witnesses sent to them in Revelation 11. They are the witnesses that will preach the final gospel to the Jews.

Even at this time, the blindness is still there. So the prophets will be killed but they will rise after three days.

In Revelation 13, the anti Christ and the false Prophet will be revealed. The false Prophet is the false Christ the Jews will accept as their long awaited Messiah.

But after he sets up the image of the anti Christ refereed to as the first beast, the Jews blindness will be removed.

Then, all what Jesus said in Matthew 24 will begin to play out.

They will hated by all nations because they refuse to worship the image of the beast.

The great tribulation Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24 will begin.

At this time, the church is no longer on earth.

The Jews will begin to cry for deliverance and that is when Jesus will come back visibly to fight with the anti Christ and defeat him and his armies.

But just before the fight begins, 144,000 Jews will be raptured. These are the elect Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24.

And the church that was raptured will be part of the army that will come with him from heaven.

The Jews who died will resurrect and reign with Christ. It is called the first resurrection because in the sense of dealing with the Jews exclusively.

They were the first saints to be resurrected among the New Testament Jews who believed in Jesus

The Old Testament Jewish saints resurrected with Jesus as recorded in Matthew 27:52-53.

OkCornel:


Ken4Christ, there are many fallacies in your post which I’ll address when I’m chanced.

For goodness sake, how can you say “raptured” believers are the four living creatures standing before God’s throne?

The four living creatures are Cherubims. A Cherubim guarded the tree of life to prevent Adam and Eve taking from it.

Ezekiel also saw these same four living creatures (Cherubims) in Ezekiel 1 v 5-12. This is exactly what John saw in the book of Revelation.

Are you really telling us it was raptured Christians that prevented Adam & Eve from eating from the tree of life?

Are you telling us it was raptured Christians Ezekiel saw as the four living creatures (Ezekiel 1 v 5-12) in the Old Testament?


Seriously?!!!


When I’m chanced, I’ll reply your lengthy post in details.

Ken4Christ:


I did not give my interpretation to it. The book of Revelation did itself;

Revelation 5:8-9
8 And when he had taken the book, the FOUR BEASTS and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And THEY SUNG A NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation

The verses said that the four beast sang a new song. Read the content of the song. It said:

1. Thou was slain
2. Hast redeem us by thy blood.
3. Out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation.

So, every nation, tribe, tongue and kindred are represented in the four living creatures.

They are symbols of the church in this context.

You can't use another passage elsewhere where it means different thing to interpret what it means in a different passage.

And the order of the description reveals the different dispensation of the church.

The first is like a lion - Symbolizes the early church

The second is like a calf - Symbolizes the church when idolatry crept into it.

The third is like a man - This is the period of reformation. But they didn't have the power of the Holy Spirit.

The fourth is like a flying eagle - This is the present day church that will witness the rapture.

OkCornel:
Ken4Christ

See the screenshot I've attached to this post, and a link from the bible study tool for the direct interpretation from Greek (the language the book of Revelation was written in)

Revelation 5 v 9
"And they are singing a song new saying Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open the seals of it because You were slain and You purchased to God by the blood of You out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and You have made them to the God of us a kingdom and priests and they will reign upon the earth"

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/5.htm

From the above, you cannot see the living creatures using the pronoun "us" to claim they were the ones redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

This shouldn’t be hard for a “professor” in eschatology to figure out.

OkCornel:
Ken4Christ

See the screenshot I've attached to this post, and a link from the bible study tool for the direct interpretation from Greek (the language the book of Revelation was written in)

Revelation 5 v 9
"And they are singing a song new saying Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open the seals of it because You were slain and You purchased to God by the blood of You out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and You have made them to the God of us a kingdom and priests and they will reign upon the earth"

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/5.htm

From the above, you cannot see the living creatures using the pronoun "us" to claim they were the ones redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

This shouldn’t be hard for a “professor” in eschatology to figure out.

OkCornel:
Ken4Christ

See the screenshot I've attached to this post, and a link from the bible study tool for the direct interpretation from Greek (the language the book of Revelation was written in)

Revelation 5 v 9
"And they are singing a song new saying Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open the seals of it because You were slain and You purchased to God by the blood of You out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and You have made them to the God of us a kingdom and priests and they will reign upon the earth"

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/5.htm

From the above, you cannot see the living creatures using the pronoun "us" to claim they were the ones redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

This shouldn’t be hard for a “professor” in eschatology to figure out.

OkCornel:


For the umpteenth time, translate the scriptures directly from the language (Greek) it was written in, to English. An acclaimed professor in eschatology should figure out something this basic nau.

I’ve posted the screenshot before to you on a different thread, I’ll do it here again.

The four living creatures was referring to believers redeemed by the blood, not themselves. Jeez!

I’ve answered you in details on this thread.

https://www.nairaland.com/7140025/2nd-coming-christ-genuine-repentance#113153642