gohf:
isn't that absolutely none of your business as the question wasn't directed to you 😳

Exactly. Theists are afraid to explain their nonsense

gohf:
. So in some way do you believe kobojunkie agrees with what you have written.

And kobojunkie is this what your post was about

Whether he agrees or not is irrelevant.
Is what I wrote there a lie?

Jashub:
Summarize this nonsense . Thank you

This 'nonsense' basically said morals came by experimentation, not from any god. Thank You

Jashub:
Just read the bible and you'll get your answers

You asked me a question, and I answered it. I asked you a question, and you took to your heels, and pointed me to the buybull. Such cowardice

Jashub:
Those are scholarly works and they can't be counted as 100% accurate in terms of what they tell us about past civilizations...in fact , they are only making assumptions, and the last time I checked assumptions aren't facts

You may be right. But if you say assumptions aren't facts, are anecdotes like the Bible facts?

jaephoenix:

This 'nonsense' basically said morals came by experimentation, not from any god. Thank You

Check history. You'll see that religion play a crucial role in establishing laws . So don't be ignorant

jaephoenix:

You may be right. But if you say assumptions aren't facts, are anecdotes like the Bible facts?

Call it whatever you want , but I believe the bible because Jesus believed in it too. Besides that, Jesus really existed and historians actually have records of his existence.

Secondly, I have a personal policy of believing anything from anyone who dies and rises from grave after three days . In fact , I'll believe whatever he say ...but that's just me

Jashub:
Check history. You'll see that religion play a crucial role in establishing laws . So don't be ignorant

I didn’t say its a lie, i even showed in the article you where religious sources are used as law. But if you were attentive enough, you'll read in my post about the flaws in that notion. Before such laws were made, morals were created

Jashub:
Call it whatever you want , but I believe the bible because Jesus believed in it too. Besides that, Jesus really existed and historians actually have records of his existence.

Secondly, I have a personal policy of believing anything from anyone who dies and rises from grave after three days . In fact , I'll believe whatever he say ...but that's just me

Lol. And I thought I was discoursing with a cerebral guy.
1. Which historians said Jesus existed? The only record of his existence were from Christian scholars who had no evidence.
2. And even if he existed, there was no evidence he died and resurrected. No such events exist in world history

gohf:
Watch how children behave when they know no one is going to punish them. Who teaches them to misbehave or is it naturally or is because we set rules for behaviour.

Personally I don't care what you believe, be it God, Allah, Buddah, no god, science or whatever. What does your believe make you do.

If you feel hurting people be it physically, emotionally, mentally in whatever way just because you enjoy it is a good thing then you're sick and may not even know it. Because at the end you hurt people around you and yourself. You don't need a special hell somewhere you have created it.

if you don't believe in God and you don't behave better that those who claim to, how exactly do you feel at peace with yourself.

Someone who doesn't believe in God nor has heard of God but does good and right isn't really bother if God exists or not. If God exists fine, if God doesn't exist fine, it won't stop them from being nor doing good.

Your choice of using children as an analogy is just wrong. You cannot use people who have no understanding of life as an example of the actions of moral agents ie children don't know enough yet. The goal of any parent should be to educate their child so that they can become agents of moral good. It won't matter what you believe if you are an agent of moral good. So to answer your question, being an atheist doesn't give one an excuse to be wicked.

LordReed:


Your choice of using children as an analogy is just wrong. You cannot use people who have no understanding of life as an example of the actions of moral agents ie children don't know enough yet. The goal of any parent should be to educate their child so that they can become agents of moral good. It won't matter what you believe if you are an agent of moral good. So to answer your question, being an atheist doesn't give one an excuse to be wicked.

I think being a theist has a way of making one irrational and illogical

jaephoenix:

I didn’t say its a lie, i even showed in the article you where religious sources are used as law. But if you were attentive enough, you'll read in my post about the flaws in that notion. Before such laws were made, morals were created

Moral laws came from religion. That's a fact you cannot refute

jaephoenix:

Lol. And I thought I was discoursing with a cerebral guy.
1. Which historians said Jesus existed? The only record of his existence were from Christian scholars who had no evidence.
2. And even if he existed, there was no evidence he died and resurrected. No such events exist in world history

Oga Jesus really existed and he was spoken about by non-christian historians who didn't have a bias towards the religion. Secondly, why would you say Jesus didn't rise from the dead when it's pretty obvious that more than 500 people who saw him and died on account of their testimony.

Jashub:
You're mistaking conscience for freewill

no I am not

Jashub:
Wrong analogy as usual .Try something else . And please stick to the issue of morality. Because the paper bag stuff doesn't correlate with the discussion on the origins of any kind of morality out there

oh but it does doesn't it or are you afraid to answer

You are afraid of what your true answer would mean

jaephoenix:

I do.
You said atheists choose to be so so they can sin to their fill.
And apart from your topic sentence, you didn't explain why. You just veered off

I never said nor did that

jaephoenix:

Is there a moral point to this action

isn't there?
A child desire to set something on fire

I will ask you again is it right for the child to burn millions worth of hard currency that could be use for many things

jaephoenix:

So they refuse to do wrong because of god, not morals or conscience?

do they need help because they believe that if they do wrong they will be punished or they need help because they believe in doing the very good you claim to do?

gohf:
oh but it does doesn't it or are you afraid to answer

You are afraid of what your true answer would mean

Please how does setting a paper bag on fire have any link to moral standards. Please answer

jaephoenix:

Who is that Father

everyone of His child knows Him

gohf:
■ I don't know kobojunkie and he may as well have his issues but didn't you read where he wrote that he obeyed and yielded to the commands of Christ.
■ If so then how did you get the idea he was saying the holy spirit forcefully entered him
■ Did he say he had absolute unbelief, I have to reread what he wrote because I recall him writing that he was already on a path to seeking God and obeying his word My question for you now is, who sent you to say this

1. Good observation! At first, I was concerned about being controlled by a spirit and all, and in those early days, I went from one psychiatrist to the other trying to figure out what happened to me but every one of them gave me a clean bill of health telling me that I was just stressing over stuff. They even took me off meds I had been on for many years because they figured there was no problem left to resolve. It was a hilarious time in my life too because never in a million years could I have figured that what Jesus Christ meant by being born of spirit, a part of the born-again process meant allowing oneself to be possessed by, not of, a spirit. And this spirit is always there with me, 24/7, only no one else can tell unless he begins, what has become a sort of regular routine.

5 Jesus answered, “Believe me when I say that everyone must be born from water and the Spirit. Anyone who is not born from water and the Spirit cannot enter God’s kingdom.
6 The only life people get from their human parents is physical. But the new life that the Spirit gives a person is spiritual.
7 Don’t be surprised that I told you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows wherever it wants to. You hear it, but you don’t know where it is coming from or where it is going. It is the same with everyone who is born from the Spirit.” - John 3 vs 5 - 8

So, anyone who tells you he/she is born-again but is not possessed by some sort of spirit, is a liar!

And yes, it wasn't necessarily the spirit that drove me to then pursue Jesus Christ with vigor after that, but instead the fact that I had started on that path of my own before he showed up in my life, a sort of confirmation that I was on the right path. So, it made sense for me to continue along that path to get closer to that promised by Jesus Christ.

2. I don't think at that point where I gained access into the Kingdom of God that there was any Holy spirit in the picture. Jesus Christ never mentioned a Holy Spirit in the context of John 3 vs 1 - 8 so it always upsets me when so-called Christians automatically assume being born of spirit is about the Holy spirit. It couldn't though since instead what Jesus Christ said is that one is able to gain access into the Kingdom of God via either of two gates, the Broad gate which leads to destruction(Hellfire) at the end, or the Narrow gate which leads to true life(Heaven) at its end - Matthew 7 vs 13 - 14 & Luke 13 vs 22 -30. This means that all those who will end up in Hellfire will all also be born-again. Surely, they couldn't have been born of the Holy Spirit only to have an end in Hell - how can the Holy Spirit end up in Hellfire?

3. Yeah, I started on a path of obedience BEFORE I became born-again. So, when people say they somehow need the Holy Spirit to come to hold their hand before they can then obey God, I know for sure that those folks are lying.

Jashub:
Please how does setting a paper bag on fire have any link to moral standards. Please answer

very well fine
A child doesn't know the value of what he is about to burn or is burning, so obviously there isn't a feeling of having done wrong in anyway. In fact such child would feel they are right to do whatever they wanted because they could do it, and justify doing it. That in no way makes it right

But an adult, or using your words, one of higher standard and understanding, who knows the value of those papers would know that that child has done wrong.

If God sets a standard and rule that values life is because he knows the value of it. The child like those sinners, did whatever they did out of their own understanding, pleasure or desire.

Morality cannot originate from an ignorant mind, is has to come from higher intelligent and one with high understanding and values.

The way that child sees that bag of paper and the way an adult sees it will always be different even though they are both living beings

Kobojunkie:


2. I don't think at that point where I gained access into the Kingdom of God that there was any Holy spirit in the picture. Jesus Christ never mentioned a Holy Spirit in the context of John 3 vs 1 - 8 so it always upsets me when so-called Christians automatically assume being born of spirit is about the Holy spirit. It couldn't though since instead what Jesus Christ said is that one is able to gain access into the Kingdom of God via either of two gates, the Broad gate which leads to destruction(Hellfire) at the end, or the Narrow gate which leads to true life(Heaven) at its end - Matthew 7 vs 13 - 14 & Luke 13 vs 22 -30. This means that all those who will end up in Hellfire will all also be born-again. Surely, they couldn't have been born of the Holy Spirit only to have an end in Hell - how can the Holy Spirit end up in Hellfire?

3. Yeah, I started on a path of obedience BEFORE I became born-again. So, when people say they somehow need the Holy Spirit to come to hold their hand before they can then obey God, I know for sure that those folks are lying.

only one gate and way leads to the kingdom of God, because there are two roads doesn't mean they lead to the same place, one leads to God the other leads to hell. So did you mean to write two roads to enter the after life?

gohf:
. So in some way do you believe kobojunkie agrees with what you have written.
And kobojunkie is this what your post was about

I don't hold brief for any individual or man here abeg! I simply profess that which is the Truth of God alone.

Jesus Christ never sent any man out to police the rights and thoughts of another man in His name. The New Covenant is a contract that the individual signs with God promising to obey God no matter what, and the Covenant does not place any man over the mind or lives of other men. The atrocities committed in the past by those who claim by mouth to be of Jesus Christ —the churches of men in this world— have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus Christ. Not a single one of the almost 100 commandments(and teachings) contained in that agreement/contract gives any man the right to speak politically or legally against His fellow man using the name of Jesus Christ, yet look around and you see those of the religion of Christianity doing exactly that, why? Because they are antiChrist, not of Him.

LordReed:


Your choice of using children as an analogy is just wrong. You cannot use people who have no understanding of life as an example of the actions of moral agents ie children don't know enough yet. The goal of any parent should be to educate their child so that they can become agents of moral good. It won't matter what you believe if you are an agent of moral good. So to answer your question, being an atheist doesn't give one an excuse to be wicked.

You said children don't know enough but we who claim to be adults know enough? Someone asks about the source of morals as if a child could develop such in isolation.

so why is it wrong to compare us to children in the face of vast knowledge of the earth, even in the face of history not to mention God Almighty and yet we who are but mere infants would claim to be the origin of morals denying the existence of a Father, a God above us and before us.

Do we know enough of this world to claim there is no God or judgement after death. Or claim we are the only existence and after death is nothing. Even with limitation knowledge the arrogance to attempt to explain away supernatural or things beyond human understanding just to deny the fact that there is a God.

Children is the best analogy to show how arrogant adults can be in the face of God.

You said the goal of a parent is to educate, does it then sound wrong to say God as a Father of men, strove to educate them?

And yes being an atheists is not an excuse to be wicked in anyway.

Kobojunkie:
I don't hold brief for any individual or man here abeg! I simply profess that which is the Truth of God alone.

Jesus Christ never sent any man out to police the rights and thoughts of another man in His name. The New Covenant is a contract that the individual signs with God promising to obey God no matter what, and the Covenant does not place any man over the mind or lives of other men. The atrocities committed in the past by those who claim by mouth to be of Jesus Christ —the churches of men in this world— have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus Christ. Not a single one of the almost 100 commandments(and teachings) contained in that agreement/contract gives any man the right to speak politically or legally against His fellow man using the name of Jesus Christ, yet look around and you see those of the religion of Christianity doing exactly that, why? Because they are antiChrist, not of Him.

jaephoenix have you heard

jaephoenix:

Whether he agrees or not is irrelevant.
Is what I wrote there a lie?

even if it is a lie would you admit it or remove it

jaephoenix:

Exactly. Theists are afraid to explain their nonsense

are they? Or you are afraid to accept the answers and explanations they give you.

gohf:
■ only one gate and way leads to the kingdom of God, because there are two roads doesn't mean they lead to the same place, one leads to God the other leads to hell.
■ So did you mean to write two roads to enter the after life?

1. This ain't true as Jesus Christ made it known that there is a Broad Gate and a Narrow Gate. He went on to urge you to enter through the Narrow Gate as opposed to waltzing in through the Broad Gate. Compared to the Broad Gate, the Narrow Gate is the Eye of a Needle - Matthew 7 vs 13 - 14 & Luke 13 vs 22 - 30 & Matthew 19 vs 23.

2. Jesus Christ is King over Heaven and King over Hell. They are both abodes within the Kingdom of God, the jurisdiction over which Jesus Christ is judged and King. Those two gates lead straight into the Kingdom of God - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46

gohf:

You said children don't know enough but we who claim to be adults know enough? Someone asks about the source of morals as if a child could develop such in isolation.

so why is it wrong to compare us to children in the face of vast knowledge of the earth, even in the face of history not to mention God Almighty and yet we who are but mere infants would claim to be the origin of morals denying the existence of a Father, a God above us and before us.

Do we know enough of this world to claim there is no God or judgement after death. Or claim we are the only existence and after death is nothing. Even with limitation knowledge the arrogance to attempt to explain away supernatural or things beyond human understanding just to deny the fact that there is a God.

Children is the best analogy to show how arrogant adults can be in the face of God.

You said the goal of a parent is to educate, does it then sound wrong to say God as a Father of men, strove to educate them?

And yes being an atheists is not an excuse to be wicked in anyway.

I have evidence parents exist, I don't have evidence that a god or gods of any kind exist. When you can show me a god that interacts on the level of parents then I will listen to what that god has to say about morality.

Besides all morality is human determined, no god came from anywhere to give it to us, we developed it. We teach it to our children. Morality will always be in development and will always change.

Jashub:
Moral laws came from religion. That's a fact you cannot refute

Again did you read my posts, or you have dyslexia?

LordReed:


I have evidence parents exist, I don't have evidence that a god or gods of any kind exist. When you can show me a god that interacts on the level of parents then I will listen to what that god has to say about morality.

Besides all morality is human determined, no god came from anywhere to give it to us, we developed it. We teach it to our children. Morality will always be in development and will always change.

I wonder what an orphan child would say...

the problem with showing you is the clause, without holiness it is impossible to see God, the pure in heart are blessed to see God. Are you qualified to see Him, that should be your thought.

You should think if a president that does exist in flesh is hard to see, how much a God.

Asking for God that interacts as your earthly parents is like asking for a president that will interact with you like a lover. Not impossible but still the odds. If you don't see the problem in your request you can as well as ask for the sun to rise in your room.

Morality doesn't change, good is good, good will not become evil. Good is good, because it is not selfish nor self serving. Now the only kind of fake morality that changes is the king that caters to those in power who's needs are ever changing and never satisfied. To those whom been pleased is what is good irrespective of how it affects others or life or the earth.

We teach our children what has been taught to us, and no matter how far you wish to dig, it all begins with God no matter what name He is called in different religions or culture.

You can live in the illusion that morality is human determined but wake up the reality that humans would burn banks because of a lit displeasure or police stations or fuel stations. Question is, where did that source of morality you claimed human possess go. Did the very originators of so called morality let go of it and becomes animals.

You amuse me, you look at men and believe they are the source of morality 😂😂😂😂