What makes Deborah's case different that warrants a "reasonable explanation" which is not applicable in our generation?
You have only proved that God does not need anyone's permission to choose who he wants to use.
If God could speak through a donkey how much more a woman.
malvisguy212: you made a good point, there is a reasonable explanation in the case of Deborah.
The Time of the Judges was not a good period in the history of Israel because after the time of Joshua’s death
Judges 2:10 “there arose another generation after them who did not know the Lord or the work that he had done for Israel”
You see, after Joshua died another generation arose who do not know the God of isreal,this generation worship others gods they completely abandoned the God of their forfather's, but because God has a covenant with the isrealite he provide for them a king:
Judges 2:18 The Lord then raised up for them godly judges
Judges 2:19 “But whenever the judge died, they turned back and were More corrupt than their fathers, going after other gods, serving them and bowing down to them”
Not just one judge, but many and whenever this judge died, they turn back and worship others gods.
This happened time after time because
Judges 17:6 “In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes”
Israel needed a strong judge and God was about to provide them with one; one named Deborah. Not a single isrealite knows the God of their father's ONLY Deborah.
well u quote some notable passage bt come to think of it ; wherr in those passage it is nention to teach n preach openly like in d church? according to act 2 u quoted, is d grace dat is available for everyone dat will make ur daughter to receive gift of prophecy, for d fact dat u hv dat gift doesnt make u a pastor infact u need to even pray to get d interpretation of d prophecy, in Romans 16 those woman were call workers in christ not preacher in open area or to hv authority of man, there is order in d house of God remember God is not author of confusion, dont get me wrong nothing bad for woman to preach or teach cos is everyone's mandate "go ye into d word n teach.." dat is mandate Jesus gave us all bt not for a woman to b pastoring a church and hv authority over man. understanding of d word of God is important God bless u .
Can you do me a favour and show me in the Bible where Jesus(our model:The one we look up to) point blankly forbids women pastoring or ministering etc. My dearDon't be drowned in the ocean of religion fanaticism Just like the Pharisees and scribes
there is nothing like pastoress in d holy scripture,deborah was a prophetess,al wat his said by d apostles in d bible are said by God,since,al scriptures are written by God's inspiration,Jesus had male 12 apostles bt thousands disciples which include men and women like matha,learn frm d first xtian church catholic,wen d sisters demanded for priesthood,d pope said none of d apostles are women,though women can be gifted with al forms of God's power bt shuldnt be ova men,evry1 just interpret d bible as he or she likes,almost al churches do nt ave church tradition which teaches xtian doctrines used in d first century though d book is used by some orthodox churches,d buk is dated 2 d bible since d bible was written afta d church had begun,bt,we like human doctrines,pple claim God call dem,teaching their doctrines bt because because we dont understand sometins done in d catholic we split,no a doctrine,bt,different contradicting d oda
mecuzee: God used Kathryn Kulman and Maria Woodworth Etter in healing thousands of folks and demonstrating his power and love. I guess you saying God made a mistake...
Kathryn who? lmao. dude you obviously do not know she was a fake. read a book
[size=18pt]1 Corinthians 14:34-35: Should Women be Silent in Church?[/size]
[size=16pt]VIDEO'S TRANSCRIPT:[/size] One controversy concerns the role of women in church ministry. One scripture in particular seems to exclude women from any public ministry:
'Let your women keep SILENT in the churches, for it is NOT PERMITTED FOR THEM TO SPEAK; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as THE LAW also SAYS. And IF they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is SHAMEFUL FOR WOMEN TO SPEAK IN CHURCH.' (1 Corinthians 14:34,35)
Some would explain this away as a special command to the unruly women at Corinth to straighten-up, rather than a general command to all women everywhere. But if we treat one scripture this way, what is to stop us treating every scripture this way? Surely the New Testament is written for the whole church.
The subject of the passage is: 'THE WOMEN IN THE CHURCHES (plural)'. This means-'all women.' Moreover the command is based on 'the law' which means it applies to all, rather than just to those in a particular culture or time.
Let us consider what this passage is literally saying. The word for 'silent' does not mean 'quiet' Thus it is not saying that women should have a quiet (meek) spirit. The word translated 'silent' means no word can be spoken!
It is saying WOMEN MUST BE (completely) SILENT IN CHURCH. This doesn't just disqualify them from teaching but also from testifying, praying, prophesing and moving in the gifts of the Spirit-the latter being the context of these verses (1 Cor 12:1)
The First Problem with this passage, is that it contradicts Paul's other teaching in this book. For he says women may pray and prophesy in church (1 Cor 11:3-5). In 1Corinthians 12, especially in v13-27 he teaches that all members of the church (men and women), are members of the body and thus have a function in the body working in co-ordination with each other, and so we can all be used in the gifts and ministries of the Spirit.
So, he says: 'if ALL (men and women) prophesy' (1 Cor 14:24) 'When you come together, EVERY ONE (men and women) of you has a psalm, has a doctrine, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation.' (v26) 'You may ALL prophesy one by one.' (v31)
So, why would he say 3 verses later that all women must be silent in church? Is he being doubleminded? So the first problem is that in the middle of encouraging everyone to move out in ministry, he is telling all women to be silent!
This also contradicts the spirit of the New-Testament with Jesus treating women with honour, with the churches set free from all Jewish traditions (Acts15), with full equality in the church (Gal 3:28) and with the Spirit poured upon all flesh (male and female) to give power for ministry (Acts 1:8, 2:4,16-18)
A Second Problem is the discouragement upon women from even learning: 'and IF THEY WANT TO LEARN.' The tone of this is condescending to women, that not only should they not speak, it is optional for them to learn the Word (it is even mildly frowned upon as if it were not really their place.) This is clearly in contradiction to the New Testament teaching for women and contrasts with what Paul said in 1Timothy 2:11: 'LET a woman learn.' Here he encourages women to study the Word. Here he speaks against those who would discourage them.
A Third Problem is the AUTHORITY used: 'IT IS NOT PERMITTED FOR THEM TO SPEAK ..AS THE LAW ALSO SAYS.'
Which Law is this? There are 4 possibilities: (1) The Old Testament Scripture. (The Law of Moses) It is usually referred to by 'It is written' (1 Cor 1:19,31; 3:19,20; 4:6; 9:9; 10:11, 14:21; 15:45,51)
(2) The Teaching of Jesus (1 Cor 7:10).
(3) The Apostolic Teaching and Tradition -that which Paul and others received by revelation from the Lord (1 Cor 7:12) Paul received special new revelations to meet the needs of a new situation (the Church Age where many Gentiles were becoming believers on an equal footing with the Jews). For example: 1 Cor 2:10-13,16; 4:1,15-17, 7:6,10,12,17,25; 11:1,2,16,17, 23; 14:36,37; 15:1,3
(4) The Oral Law of the Jews (later written as the Talmud)- the interpretation of Moses' Law by the Scribes and Pharisees. It is followed by the Orthodox Jews to this day as of equal authority to the Bible. They falsely claimed it was passed down from Moses by word of mouth. Jesus clashed with Pharisees over this law. He rejected it and came against it's legalistic spirit (Matt15:3, Mark7:3).
Now when 1 Cor 14:34,35 refers to a law of silence for women, it couldn't be: (1) because there's no such law in the Old-Testament and he would say 'it is written'; neither is it found in the Gospels (2). Neither is it (3) because it is clearly a pre-existing law. Therefore by a process of elimination it must be (4) The Jewish Oral Law (the laws of the Pharisees)
This is confirmed by the phrase: 'As also SAYS the Law.' - a reference to the ORAL law rather than the WRITTEN law (scripture). (see also Matt 5:21,27,31, 33,38,43)
Also, we know this because it agrees completely with the Talmud and applies to Orthodox synagogues today. The service is for men only. Women are discouraged from even learning, but are sometimes allowed to watch from the gallery, for their place is at home not with things too high for them! And it would be shameful for them to speak in a meeting.
TALMUDIC QUOTES illustrate this: A Jewish Prayer:'Praise God He hasn't created me a gentile, a woman or an ignorant man.' 'The woman, says the law, is in all things inferior to the man.' Only men could speak in public (Beraktoth 4,36; Mishnah Aboth 1,5) No woman could give a testimony or conduct business. (Mishnah Shabbath 4,1)
Women were viewed with disregard and repression, and the Talmud contains many distasteful insults of women's character. They were to be avoided. They were not required to know or fulfil the law and so few were learned.
One said: 'May the words of the Torah be burned rather than be given to women.' In public worship they were segregated and silenced and so had to ask questions of their husbands at home.
Clearly the writer of 1 Cor 14:34,35 reflected this Pharisaical attitude to women and used this Jewish Law to support his views.
So why would Paul say something that stands in contradiction to the immediate context and the rest of the New Testament? Why would he establish this teaching on Jewish Laws that elsewhere, both he and Jesus rejected?
The simple answer is these verses are not Paul's teaching! Paul's letters are written in response church situations. 1 Corinthians is the most responsive of them all. Paul had received reports about what was going on (1:11, 5:1, 6:1,8 ), and the church had sent a letter to Paul with many questions (7:1,8,10,12,25; 8:1,4; 12:1; 16:1). There was disunity (1:10-12,3:3). In particular there were 2 groups of people saved from different backgrounds disputing -Jews who tended toward legalism, and Greeks who tended toward license. Paul goes through the issues and questions raised one by one.
Examples of when Paul is clearly responding to what one group has said are 6:15-20 (Greeks); 9:1-11; 11:1-16 (Jews) and 15:12,35,36.
Sometimes he refers what they are saying and then he answers them -e.g.1 Cor 4:8: 'You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us.' (this is what some of them had claimed) --'and indeed I wish you did reign, that we might also reign with you.' (Paul's answer - see also 4:10)
Sometimes he even quotes what they say and then answers them. The problem is that there are no punctuation or quote marks in the Greek and the translators often miss them out.
Some examples of this, are when he responds to the 'loose' Greeks as in 6:12,13: (You say) 'All things are lawful for me.' (I Paul) say: 'but all things are not helpful.' (You say) 'All things are lawful for me.' (I Paul) say: 'but I will not be brought under the power of any.' (You say) 'Food is for the stomach and the stomach for foods.' (I Paul) say: 'but God will destroy both it and them.' We see the same in 10:23,24.
In questions about idols Paul challenges those who pride themselves in their knowledge but who do not hold it in love. (8:1-3) 8:4: 'We know that -'an idol is nothing in the world and that there is but one God' (again he quotes their words (their knowledge) before he answers as confirmed in v10,11.
Other examples are when he responds to the 'legalistic Jews', 7:1: 'Now concerning what you wrote to me, (some of you said) 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.' (But I Paul say) 'Nevertheless because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife...'
Now we can understand what is happening in 1 Cor 14:34,35. Paul is quoting what some Jewish converts to Christ, had written in a letter to Paul, complaining about women being involved in church services. Although they were saved they were used to male-dominated synagogue - worship and so found the equality of women in church life hard to take.
They were saying: 'Paul, these women are prophesying, praying out loud, speaking in tongues. The Oral law says it's shameful for a woman to speak in public. Tell them to shut-up!'
So as Paul is teaching on every member participating in church services, it is the natural place for him to deal with their objection. So he quotes what they say: 'Let your women keep silent in the churches, for it is not permitted for them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for women to speak in church' (v34,35)
Then he answers them: 'What, came the word of God out from you? or came it to you only? If any think himself a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write to you (not the Talmud) are the commandments of the Lord (the true authority) But if any (choose to be) be ignorant, let him be ignorant.' (v36-38) Paul replies by asserting his apostolic authority above the Talmud.
This also explains why these verses come out of the blue, interrupting the flow of thought, which is picked up again in v39,40: 'Therefore brethren, covet to prophesy and do not forbid to speak with tongues.'
The placement of v34,35 in the passage as a clear interruption and marked contrast to what Paul is teaching, serves to separate them from Paul's own views.
We conclude that Paul isn't silencing women, rather the opposite!
Those who are too quick to agree with v34,35 have unwittingly submitted to an unchristian pharisaical spirit
This settles it all. People just pick a verse or two, interpret it out of context without understanding either the cultural and historical analysis around the time. Bible scholars over the years have agreed that the verses in questions were 'quotations' from what Paul had been told.
pass111: In Christ there is no such thing as slave nor free born, there is no Jew nor gentile, no Woman nor man , all are equal before the lord remember The grace is available to ALL ... even the grace to preach, minister etc. Gal 3:28
Acts 2:17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on ALL flesh, and your sons and your DAUGHTERS shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams
Romans 16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae,
Romans 16:3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,(I guess Sister Phoebe, Prisca and Aquila are all male abi)
The Bible was plain when it says that women should not pray, teach or have authority over the men in God's church. In 1 Timothy 2:8, the scriptures says "I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting". The key word there is everywhere where there's a mixture of both men and women, that men should take the lead in prayers, that is the desire of God.... But when women are alone, they can pray for and within themselves. Concerning teaching and having authority, bible forbids women in the church. In that same 1 Timothy 2 :11-14, it says: Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression......... This message is as simple, direct and clear as ABC. It even went further to give us the reasons for this decision of God regarding the above topic, see verse 13 and 14. So the person that posted this issue is 100% correct.
In the church of the living God, everyone is the same in that we have the same hope, Lord, God, faith, inheritance and judgement..... But in responsibility, we are not all the same. Someone quoted Galatians 3:28, but misinterpreted it to mean that since the Bible said there's neither man or woman, that women should also be given the roles and duties of men also..... But let me clarify him or her a little; to prove that God Has different duties, responsibilities and preferences to men and women alike, He gave different laws to worshippers according to their gender: 1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?
So being one in the Lord doesn't depict having the same role or preference.
Let me quickly conclud by saying that why people think that the Bible contradicts itself is because of the lack of knowledge about the Bible and it's divisions. The Bible is secondarily divided into three phases: (1)The period of the fathers (Patriarchal dispensation). (2)The period of the Isrealites(Mosaic dispensation). (3)The period of Christ (Christians dispensation). Our knowledge of these will help us understand the Bible more.
2 Timothy 2: 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Lordkratus: chuna1985 stop discreditting christianity with ur misguided statement.if u dnt have a valid point pls dnt comment.did anybody snap them in that dinner or a man drew it after 1000 years or are u saying the bible was incomplete because her name was never mentioned in the bible as a disciple.dnt say things just to give value to ur doctrine
freecocoa: No, I haven't watched the video and quite frankly, am not going to because I don't see what difference it makes (even with the said missing comments in the transcript)
I can respect that and only say suit yourself to it
freecocoa: I can let you have what you claim is the reason for the bible verses (even though I don't agree with it)
I understand. Besides the fact that the reason for the bible verses is true, I know we sometimes, have to agree to disagree
freecocoa: I can't however, agree that the bible does not support misogyny
You will admit that the end of a matter is better than its beginning
If we are being honest and sincere, the same manner, we think the Bible is misogynistic or supports misogyny, is the same way we'll find it, not to be misogynistic and/or doesnt wilfully supports misogyny
MuttleyLaff: I can respect that and only say suit yourself to it
I understand. Besides the fact that the reason for the bible verses is true, I know we sometimes, have to agree to disagree
You will admit that the end of a matter is better than its beginning
If we are being honest and sincere, the same manner, we think the Bible is misogynistic or supports misogyny, is the same way we'll find it, not to be misogynistic and/or doesnt wilfully supports misogyny
Okay then, perhaps you might wanna prove to me that it doesn't, or better yet, how the word of God which is perfect, can be said to do something not wilful, yea?
freecocoa: Okay then, perhaps you might wanna prove to me that it doesn't,
Same way you use verses to say the Bible supports misogyny would be the same way, I would use the Bible to show it doesnt support misogyny and that neither or never did Jesus too support misogyny
freecocoa: or better yet, how the word of God which is perfect, can be said to do something not wilful, yea?
The teachings and word of the LORD are perfect alright. They renew the soul and preserves ones life.
If you arent a parent yet to know this, then at least, I can bet, you can relate with the fact or truth that, there were occasions you got away with doing certain things which your parents didnt wilfully support
The concept of women becoming preachers of the gospel in the church, is one of the numerous satanic doctrines that is working against the church today. Satan, just as he did Eve, has so made people to "reason" with the word of God instead of accepting what God have said unconditionally.
Women preachers; where do you find such things in the bible as women preachers, women bishops, deaconess, pastoress, reverend Mrs and so forth? Jesus never ordained such things nor did the apostles of Jesus Christ. This is simply the doctrine of devils which has crept into the church to make the foolish virgins fall away.
when men and women gather for church services, the bible forbids a woman leading in any aspect of the service. The Bible could not be more explicit when it stated that;
"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. LET YOUR WOMEN KEEP SILENCE in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the 'law'(old testament)....for it is a shame for women to speak in the church....But If any man (like our preachers and intellectuals of today) think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD (Jesus). But if any man be ignorant (thinking that they know more than lthe LORD that gave the commandment), let him be ignorant. 1 Cor. 14 vs 33-38. Also repeated in 1Tim.2vs11-15.
Some church leaders who have lost respect for the Bible will/have deny/denied this and go/gone ahead to appoint women as Rgt reverend Mrs, Choirmistresses, Pioneers, Songleaders, Pastors, Overseers etc, where there are men. Judgement is coming.
God forbid women taking the position of men in the church, and beyond, in preaching and in prayer leading everywhere. 1Tim.2vs8-12. Titus 2vs 3-8, Matt 28vs16-20, Mark, 16vs14-20, Acts 1vs2, Acts 6vs8-10, Acts 8vs3-8; Acts 18vs24-28. See the Bible way women participate in Preaching of the Gospel- Luke8vs1-3. It was in this pattern that the noble Sister Lydia made provision of accomodation and feeding for Paul and his Evangelical team in Philip of Macedonia. Acts16vs14,15. It was in similar fashion that Sister Phebe served the church in Cenchrea (as succourer) by rendering help to those who have material needs including their Overseer - Paul (Romans 16vs1-2). That was how Sister Priscilla laboured with her husband -Acquila in the conversion of Appolos Apollos in Acts 18vs24-28. What about Dorcas, Sister Euodias? None of these were seen heading the churches in their time. Why should it be different now?
The truth is God is not the author of today's confusion about sisters roles in Gospeling, but the problem is with our i sabi-too much, stiff necked educated church leaders who think they know more than God and the Apostles.
1st corinthians 14 vs 33-38 33. for GOD is nt d author of confusion bt of peace as in all d churches of d saints 34. let ur women keep silent in d churches. for it is nt permitedcfor dm to speak bt they r commanded to b under obedience as saith d law 35 and if de will learn anytin let dm ask dia husbands at home. for it is a shame for a woman to speak in d church 36. what?came d word of GOD out frm u? or came it unto u only? 37.if any man tink imself to b a profet or spiritual let om acknowledge dat d tins i write unto u r d commandmnts of d Lord. 38. bt if any man is ignorant let im b ignorant still....... readin dese verses judge for urself if a woman shuld b in an authoritative position in d church ... also galatians 1 vs 8 says..... bt though we or an angel from heaven preach any oda gospel unto u dat that wich ye av received let im b accursed....... d bible av spoken
MuttleyLaff: Same way you use verses to say the Bible supports misogyny would be the same way, I would use the Bible to show it doesnt support misogyny and that neither or never did Jesus too support misogyny
The teachings and word of the LORD are perfect alright. They renew the soul and preserves ones life.
If you arent a parent yet to know this, then at least, I can bet, you can relate with the fact or truth that, there were occasions you got away with doing certain things which your parents didnt wilfully support
Okay then, I'd like to give it a try.
I'm not a parent yet, but I can't remember getting away with whatever my parents didn't wilfully support, whatever they disproved of, I didn't get away with doing. How does the parent analogy fit with God?
Now, the bible says a woman must be sold off to her r*pist, another part says that the man is not for the woman, but the woman is for the man, neither was the man created for the woman, but the woman for the man, another verse said that the woman brought death/sin to world, therefore her pain shall be multiplied during childbirth and her desire shall be only for her husband(funny the man can desire as much woman as he wants), the bible warms about strange women, a LovePeddler, or any woman who isn't a man's wife, it called her a deep ditch and a narrow pit, she lies in wait as a prey, increasing transgressors amongst men, apparently, a woman is responsible for a man choosing sleeping with her, I find it quite convinient that nothing was said about strange men.
Now what do you have to say about these?
P.S, I didn't include where the verses are from, because I'd love to read someone say, those aren't in the bible.
I guessed as much, but didnt want to make the assumption you are
freecocoa: but I can't remember getting away with whatever my parents didn't wilfully support, whatever they disproved of, I didn't get away with doing
Maybe you're economical with the truth here or it's just innocent forgetfulness Let's jog your memory with few examples: Like staying up late beyond lights out or bed time Like returning home later than the home curfew Like not regularly tidying up your room
freecocoa: How does the parent analogy fit with God?
The parent analogy fits with God because believe it or not, God too is a Parent, a Father.
freecocoa: a woman must be sold off to her r*pist, another part says that the man is not for the woman, but the woman is for the man, neither was the man created for the woman, but the woman for the man,
I take this as innocent and wild exuberance, the money is a penalty, not a sale You've made reference to Deuteronomy 22:28-29 but not Exodus 22:16-17 where the father has the final say, whether the man after paying the penalty can have the woman, his daughter
freecocoa: another verse said that the woman brought death/sin to world
Wrong!. No verse says that the woman brought death/sin to world as a matter of fact and truth, death came into the world through sin, and sin actually came into the world via Adam
freecocoa: therefore her pain shall be multiplied during childbirth
Pain in the mind (i.e. anguish etcetera) and the body.
freecocoa: and her desire shall be only for her husband (funny the man can desire as much woman as he wants)
You've just referenced Genesis 3:16 but you need to compare it with Genesis 4:7, in order to get a proper handle on what is going on about this desire and overruling thing freecocoa
freecocoa: the bible warms about strange women, a LovePeddler, or any woman who isn't a man's wife, it called her a deep ditch and a narrow pit, she lies in wait as a prey, increasing transgressors amongst men, apparently, a woman is responsible for a man choosing sleeping with her, I find it quite convinient that nothing was said about strange men
The bible is full of stories about strange men and even males who engage in sexual activity for payment etcetera, so nothing like a convenient silence here Hang on, are you familiar with Proverbs 31:10-31 at all? If yes, there you are, if not then dust up a Bible and check it out a father's advice to a son
freecocoa: Now what do you have to say about these?
As seen from the above responses, I've tried to reduce the volume of what I have to say or can say about the whole lot and also tried doing it without it being overwhelming
freecocoa: P.S, I didn't include where the verses are from
Dont worry about that, as you've probably noticed I can handle and live with it, - the original texts, Hebrew and Greek, werent even in verses in the first instance anyway
freecocoa: because I'd love to read someone say, those aren't in the bible
Sounds like a non-sexual fetish to me, anyway to each his or her own
[size=18pt]1 Corinthians 14:34-35: Should Women be Silent in Church?[/size]
[size=16pt]VIDEO'S TRANSCRIPT:[/size] One controversy concerns the role of women in church ministry. One scripture in particular seems to exclude women from any public ministry:
'Let your women keep SILENT in the churches, for it is NOT PERMITTED FOR THEM TO SPEAK; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as THE LAW also SAYS. And IF they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is SHAMEFUL FOR WOMEN TO SPEAK IN CHURCH.' (1 Corinthians 14:34,35)
Some would explain this away as a special command to the unruly women at Corinth to straighten-up, rather than a general command to all women everywhere. But if we treat one scripture this way, what is to stop us treating every scripture this way? Surely the New Testament is written for the whole church.
The subject of the passage is: 'THE WOMEN IN THE CHURCHES (plural)'. This means-'all women.' Moreover the command is based on 'the law' which means it applies to all, rather than just to those in a particular culture or time.
Let us consider what this passage is literally saying. The word for 'silent' does not mean 'quiet' Thus it is not saying that women should have a quiet (meek) spirit. The word translated 'silent' means no word can be spoken!
It is saying WOMEN MUST BE (completely) SILENT IN CHURCH. This doesn't just disqualify them from teaching but also from testifying, praying, prophesing and moving in the gifts of the Spirit-the latter being the context of these verses (1 Cor 12:1)
The First Problem with this passage, is that it contradicts Paul's other teaching in this book. For he says women may pray and prophesy in church (1 Cor 11:3-5). In 1Corinthians 12, especially in v13-27 he teaches that all members of the church (men and women), are members of the body and thus have a function in the body working in co-ordination with each other, and so we can all be used in the gifts and ministries of the Spirit.
So, he says: 'if ALL (men and women) prophesy' (1 Cor 14:24) 'When you come together, EVERY ONE (men and women) of you has a psalm, has a doctrine, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation.' (v26) 'You may ALL prophesy one by one.' (v31)
So, why would he say 3 verses later that all women must be silent in church? Is he being doubleminded? So the first problem is that in the middle of encouraging everyone to move out in ministry, he is telling all women to be silent!
This also contradicts the spirit of the New-Testament with Jesus treating women with honour, with the churches set free from all Jewish traditions (Acts15), with full equality in the church (Gal 3:28) and with the Spirit poured upon all flesh (male and female) to give power for ministry (Acts 1:8, 2:4,16-18)
A Second Problem is the discouragement upon women from even learning: 'and IF THEY WANT TO LEARN.' The tone of this is condescending to women, that not only should they not speak, it is optional for them to learn the Word (it is even mildly frowned upon as if it were not really their place.) This is clearly in contradiction to the New Testament teaching for women and contrasts with what Paul said in 1Timothy 2:11: 'LET a woman learn.' Here he encourages women to study the Word. Here he speaks against those who would discourage them.
A Third Problem is the AUTHORITY used: 'IT IS NOT PERMITTED FOR THEM TO SPEAK ..AS THE LAW ALSO SAYS.'
Which Law is this? There are 4 possibilities: (1) The Old Testament Scripture. (The Law of Moses) It is usually referred to by 'It is written' (1 Cor 1:19,31; 3:19,20; 4:6; 9:9; 10:11, 14:21; 15:45,51)
(2) The Teaching of Jesus (1 Cor 7:10).
(3) The Apostolic Teaching and Tradition -that which Paul and others received by revelation from the Lord (1 Cor 7:12) Paul received special new revelations to meet the needs of a new situation (the Church Age where many Gentiles were becoming believers on an equal footing with the Jews). For example: 1 Cor 2:10-13,16; 4:1,15-17, 7:6,10,12,17,25; 11:1,2,16,17, 23; 14:36,37; 15:1,3
(4) The Oral Law of the Jews (later written as the Talmud)- the interpretation of Moses' Law by the Scribes and Pharisees. It is followed by the Orthodox Jews to this day as of equal authority to the Bible. They falsely claimed it was passed down from Moses by word of mouth. Jesus clashed with Pharisees over this law. He rejected it and came against it's legalistic spirit (Matt15:3, Mark7:3).
Now when 1 Cor 14:34,35 refers to a law of silence for women, it couldn't be: (1) because there's no such law in the Old-Testament and he would say 'it is written'; neither is it found in the Gospels (2). Neither is it (3) because it is clearly a pre-existing law. Therefore by a process of elimination it must be (4) The Jewish Oral Law (the laws of the Pharisees)
This is confirmed by the phrase: 'As also SAYS the Law.' - a reference to the ORAL law rather than the WRITTEN law (scripture). (see also Matt 5:21,27,31, 33,38,43)
Also, we know this because it agrees completely with the Talmud and applies to Orthodox synagogues today. The service is for men only. Women are discouraged from even learning, but are sometimes allowed to watch from the gallery, for their place is at home not with things too high for them! And it would be shameful for them to speak in a meeting.
TALMUDIC QUOTES illustrate this: A Jewish Prayer:'Praise God He hasn't created me a gentile, a woman or an ignorant man.' 'The woman, says the law, is in all things inferior to the man.' Only men could speak in public (Beraktoth 4,36; Mishnah Aboth 1,5) No woman could give a testimony or conduct business. (Mishnah Shabbath 4,1)
Women were viewed with disregard and repression, and the Talmud contains many distasteful insults of women's character. They were to be avoided. They were not required to know or fulfil the law and so few were learned.
One said: 'May the words of the Torah be burned rather than be given to women.' In public worship they were segregated and silenced and so had to ask questions of their husbands at home.
Clearly the writer of 1 Cor 14:34,35 reflected this Pharisaical attitude to women and used this Jewish Law to support his views.
So why would Paul say something that stands in contradiction to the immediate context and the rest of the New Testament? Why would he establish this teaching on Jewish Laws that elsewhere, both he and Jesus rejected?
The simple answer is these verses are not Paul's teaching! Paul's letters are written in response church situations. 1 Corinthians is the most responsive of them all. Paul had received reports about what was going on (1:11, 5:1, 6:1,8 ), and the church had sent a letter to Paul with many questions (7:1,8,10,12,25; 8:1,4; 12:1; 16:1). There was disunity (1:10-12,3:3). In particular there were 2 groups of people saved from different backgrounds disputing -Jews who tended toward legalism, and Greeks who tended toward license. Paul goes through the issues and questions raised one by one.
Examples of when Paul is clearly responding to what one group has said are 6:15-20 (Greeks); 9:1-11; 11:1-16 (Jews) and 15:12,35,36.
Sometimes he refers what they are saying and then he answers them -e.g.1 Cor 4:8: 'You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us.' (this is what some of them had claimed) --'and indeed I wish you did reign, that we might also reign with you.' (Paul's answer - see also 4:10)
Sometimes he even quotes what they say and then answers them. The problem is that there are no punctuation or quote marks in the Greek and the translators often miss them out.
Some examples of this, are when he responds to the 'loose' Greeks as in 6:12,13: (You say) 'All things are lawful for me.' (I Paul) say: 'but all things are not helpful.' (You say) 'All things are lawful for me.' (I Paul) say: 'but I will not be brought under the power of any.' (You say) 'Food is for the stomach and the stomach for foods.' (I Paul) say: 'but God will destroy both it and them.' We see the same in 10:23,24.
In questions about idols Paul challenges those who pride themselves in their knowledge but who do not hold it in love. (8:1-3) 8:4: 'We know that -'an idol is nothing in the world and that there is but one God' (again he quotes their words (their knowledge) before he answers as confirmed in v10,11.
Other examples are when he responds to the 'legalistic Jews', 7:1: 'Now concerning what you wrote to me, (some of you said) 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.' (But I Paul say) 'Nevertheless because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife...'
Now we can understand what is happening in 1 Cor 14:34,35. Paul is quoting what some Jewish converts to Christ, had written in a letter to Paul, complaining about women being involved in church services. Although they were saved they were used to male-dominated synagogue - worship and so found the equality of women in church life hard to take.
They were saying: 'Paul, these women are prophesying, praying out loud, speaking in tongues. The Oral law says it's shameful for a woman to speak in public. Tell them to shut-up!'
So as Paul is teaching on every member participating in church services, it is the natural place for him to deal with their objection. So he quotes what they say: 'Let your women keep silent in the churches, for it is not permitted for them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for women to speak in church' (v34,35)
Then he answers them: 'What, came the word of God out from you? or came it to you only? If any think himself a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write to you (not the Talmud) are the commandments of the Lord (the true authority) But if any (choose to be) be ignorant, let him be ignorant.' (v36-38) Paul replies by asserting his apostolic authority above the Talmud.
This also explains why these verses come out of the blue, interrupting the flow of thought, which is picked up again in v39,40: 'Therefore brethren, covet to prophesy and do not forbid to speak with tongues.'
The placement of v34,35 in the passage as a clear interruption and marked contrast to what Paul is teaching, serves to separate them from Paul's own views.
We conclude that Paul isn't silencing women, rather the opposite!
Those who are too quick to agree with v34,35 have unwittingly submitted to an unchristian pharisaical spirit
Hahahaha! The "intellectuals" will stop at nothing in trying to disprove the scriptures, re-write the Bible and propagate their lies and hypocrisy. That vs 34-35 are not Paul's own opinion or writings? What a babel! The problem we have is that alot of us easily interprete scriptures out of context, in other to buttress our own selfish points. The summation of the youtube interpreter and his conclusion is a typical example of such nonesensical interpretations.
Now lets reconsider what the particular verses said.
"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints"..(it is the intention of God that Peace be in ALL CHURCHES of the saints- not just the church in Conrith). Let your women keep "silence" (silence as in how? ) in the "churches" (again, all these should also apply to all the churches): for it is not permitted unto them to speak (again, why? ); but they are commanded (by whom? ) to be under obedience as also saith the law (which law? ). And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak (what manner of speaking?) in the church....
Now let us answer the questions raised above.
In the begining back in Genesis, God created Man and made him lord of all in the garden of Eden. But God, in His own infallible and unquestionable ways, deemed it fit that man can not live alone, and He created the woman to be a "helpmeet" (someone who should be with him and assist him in all the things he shall do) not a subordinate! (this must be noted). In other words, The man Adam and the Woman Eve were equal in status, and complimenting one another. It was only after the fall of man(brought by the woman) in the garden that the woman lost her equal status to the man (who was not actually the source of the fall). This was clearly stated by God in Genesis. 3vs16
"and unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shall bring forth children, and (pls take note) THY DESIRE SHALL BE TO THY HUSBAND (the man), AND HE SHALL RULE (have dominion in all things) OVER THEE."
what happened above is that, God striped the woman off all her rights and entitlements as it relates to status between the man and the woman. And this became the standard way or modus operandi in social and religious living all through the Old times (O.T) into the new (N.T), and down till the end of days.
This was what Paul was refering to in 1Tim.2vs14. Now, when Paul in 1Cor.14vs34 said "silence in the church", he clearly meant that the woman should not teach nor in any form usurp authority over the man in the church. 1Tim.2vs12. It was the freedom or equal right that the woman had with man that destroyed the first fellowship and corrupted man in the begining. So by "speak", Paul is simply saying don't assume the ro,e of pastorship, deacon, Overseer, Bishop, Choir leader, Ulsher, - all of which are positions of authority, where commands, orders, directives, ratification/implementation of communiques, opinions ,suggestions or recommendations are made. This was in line with the original order put in place as punishment unto the woman by God in Genesis.
Not the other way round!
Even in politics, God is never comfortable and happy that women are ruling over His people, how much more in His house.... "As for my people, children are their oppressors, AND WOMEN RULE over them. O my people (just immagine the feeling of unhappiness God is showing here), they which lead thee (just like today) cause thee to err, and destroy the ways of thy path." Isaiah 3vs12.
Yeah! Just like today where many have destroyed the very foundation of the apostls doctrines, and taking heed to doctrines of the Devil, Leading the people astray from the ancient landmarks of truth, by teaching the commandments of men rather than the one God Himself gave. Paul in 1Cor. 2vs1, and 4, makes it clear that eloquent of speech, enticing words of man's wisdom, does not teach the scriptures regarding the mind of God. Those who claim to fear God will keep to His words without a second thought. The decree God made in Genesis 3 was the same decree that was reiterated in 1Corinthians 14 vs34, and particularly at vs 38, where the Apostle reminded them that it was actually the Commandment of the Lord (refering back to Genesis 3vs16), and which MUST be observed in all churches of the saints. It is the same commandment he kept and also ordered his son in the Lord (Timothy) to duely observed and enforce in the church at Ephesus.
The word of God is yeah and amen. It is either you accept it as it is or you don't accept it at all. You can not accept the word of God conditionally, neither can you bend it or mis-interprete it or over emphasise it to suit your taste and like. Alot of intellectuals like the youtube one above, would always want to point out that there are errors, misquotations, misuse of words, misrepresentation, mistranslation, etc; and such others like puntuations, quotation marks, aspects of verbs, etc, etc. But the truth is, God is unlimited, beyond errors, and knows all things even before they came to be. What has been written, has been written. The way the Bible is today is how God wants it to be, and as far as God is concerned, nothing is wrong with the scriptures! No scriptures is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1vs20). The word of God interprete itself, but it is only them that have faith in it, and doesn't seek after their own, that would catch the revelation, while the rest continue to grope in intellectual darkness.
Thus, those who are redefining God's law, or trying to give the woman back her lost position, can continue on such course of deviance and rebelion against God. Just as Paul said it, "If any man choose to be ignorant, let him be ignorant".
"Behold i come quickly"...Rev.3vs11; 22vs7. "...to give every man according as his work shall be". 22vs12.
5starmilitant: @op......it's forbidden? Seriously? So you mean joyce Meyer, Beth Moore, Shirley Caesar, and others that have been touching millions of life positively are threading on the forbidden part?
Screw you bro.........
these people you mentioned so, are they suppose to be your point of reference or standard, or it is the word of God that should be your stansdard?
mecuzee: God used Kathryn Kulman and Maria Woodworth Etter in healing thousands of folks and demonstrating his power and love. I guess you saying God made a mistake...
You simply don't understand. When in Joel God declared that on the last days, He would pour out His spirit upon all flesh, and their sons and daughters shall prophecy, their young ones shall see visions, and their old ones shall dream dreams: did He said all of them must be pastors, overseers, bishopresses, deaconesses? And as at when the promise of Joel became fulfilled in Acts 2, how many women who recieved the Holy Ghost, spoke in tongues etc, became pastoress, deaconess, overseers? None! Infact, if the bible is your base of reference, have you ever find the feminine aspects of such positions in the Bible? Pls if you do, help me out.
The problem is that, once someone has a gift, particularly one that pulls attention, such as the gifts of prophesy and visions, they quickly run to form churches- where the main goal is profit, wealth, and inflience.
That a woman can prophesy, speak in tongues, dance in the spirit, see accurate visions, tell dreams, etc, does not give her the mantle of leadership to excercise authority in positions of duity over the man in the church. Everything the church is today (or ought to have been) has a pointer in the scriptures. So, Search the whole Bible and tell me where a woman was usurping authority over the man in the worship of God, or in any place of fellow ship. The truth is, you will never find it. Even in politics (which is outside the religious circle) God is totally unhappy that women are ruling over his people (Isaiah 3vs12). How much more in His place of worship?
You must understand that Gifts and their operations is One thing; Administration/managerial authority is another. A man can marry the two together, but a woman can not. She lost tha right way back in Genesis 3vs16, when God decreed the punishment to that effect,The same decree which was reiterated in Corinthians and Timothy- even the same applies to us till Jesus returns.
The bible is clear and explicit. "Dont assume or rule over the man in the church". It didnt say, dont prophesy, dont, see and narate visions or dreams, dont speak in tongues; no no! Infact, the whole of chapter 14 of 1Cor. was primary an admonition dedicated to the need to keep up with these diverse gifts. But what was clearly seperated there in vs34 was "teaching", a demonstration of authority and rule (as clearly reiterated in 1Tim 2vs12), which is strictly for men in the church, as commanded by God, not Paul himself. Vs 38.
The problem is, most of us chose men as our standard, and so will do whatever they ask and believe whatever they said, instead of taking God and his word as the ultimate. Even when the thing is written in black and white, some still feels the bible's position is wrong.
Oklander: So, those verses that prohibit women he posted up there are trash and to be ignored? Smh...
Ask them o. But are you surprised? The BIG deal that makes the Bible unique and distinct from every other book is that, it foretells things thounsands of years back and ahead, before they happen. It accurately predicted and underscored the nature and character of ALL men, ALL things, even before they came to be.
So right from time, there are people whom the Bible said in the later days shall depart from the truth, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. 1Tim.4vs 1
Having teachers with itching ears (not wanting to hear what the scriptures said concerning matters as this), no longer enduring sound doctrine, and will turn away their ears from sound doctrine, choosing to hear lies instead. 2Tim.4vs3-4.
Thus, in 2Thess.2vs11-12; the anger of the Lord is against such persons that denies the truth in favour of unrighteousness.
"....in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, That they all might be damned who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Brother, this why so many can't get it even when their very eyes are open to it!
You simply don't understand. When in Joel God declared that on the last days, He would pour out His spirit upon all flesh, and their sons and daughters shall prophecy, their young ones shall see visions, and their old ones shall dream dreams: did He said all of must be pastors, overseers, bishopresses, deaconesses? And as at when the promise of Joel became fulfilled in Acts 2, how many women who recieved the Holy Ghost, spoke in tongues etc, became pastoress, deaconess, overseers? None! Infact, if the bible is your base of reference, have you ever find the feminine aspects of such positions in the Bible? Pls if you do, help me out.
The problem is that, once someone has a gift, particularly one that pulls attention, such as the gifts of prophesy and visions, they quickly run to form churches- where the main goal is profit, wealth, and inflience.
That a woman can prophesy, speak in tongues, dance in the spirit, see accurate visions, tell dreams, etc, does not give her the mantle of leadership to excercise authority in positions of duity over the man in the church. Everything the church is today (or ought to have been) has a pointer in the scriptures. So, Search the whole Bible and tell me where a woman was usurping authority over the man in the worship of God, or in any place of fellow ship. The truth is, you will never find it. Even in politics (which is outside the religious circle) God is totally unhappy that women are ruling over his people (Isaiah 3vs12). How much more in His place of worship?
You must understand that Gifts and their operations is One thing; Administration/managerial authority is another. A man can marry the two together, but a woman can not. She lost tha right way back in Genesis 3vs16, when God decreed the punishment to that effect,The same decree which was reiterated in Corinthians and Timothy- even the same applies to us till Jesus returns.
The bible is clear and explicit. "Dont assume or rule over the man in the church". It didnt say, dont prophesy, dont, see and narate visions or dreams, dont speak in tongues; no no! Infact, the whole of chapter 14 of 1Cor. was primary an admonition dedicated to the need to keep up with these diverse gifts. But what was clearly seperated there in vs34 was "teaching", a demonstration of authority and rule (as clearly reiterated in 1Tim 2vs12), which is strictly for men in the church, as commanded by God, not Paul himself. Vs 38.
The problem is, most of us chose men as our standard, and so will do whatever they ask and believe whatever they said, instead of taking God and his word as the ultimate. Even when the thing is written in black and white, some still feels the bible's position is wrong.
Hahahaha! The "intellectuals" will stop at nothing in trying to disprove the scriptures, re-write the Bible and propagate their lies and hypocrisy. That vs 34-35 are not Paul's own opinion or writings? What a babel! The problem we have is that alot of us easily interprete scriptures out of context, in other to buttress our own selfish points. The summation of the youtube interpreter and his conclusion is a typical example of such nonesensical interpretations.
Now lets reconsider what the particular verses said.
"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints"..(it is the intention of God that Peace be in ALL CHURCHES of the saints- not just the church in Conrith). Let your women keep "silence" (silence as in how? ) in the "churches" (again, all these should also apply to all the churches): for it is not permitted unto them to speak (again, why? ); but they are commanded (by whom? ) to be under obedience as also saith the law (which law? ). And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak (what manner of speaking?) in the church....
Now let us answer the questions raised above.
In the begining back in Genesis, God created Man and made him lord of all in the garden of Eden. But God, in His own infallible and unquestionable ways, deemed it fit that man can not live alone, and He created the woman to be a "helpmeet" (someone who should be with him and assist him in all the things he shall do) not a subordinate! (this must be noted). In other words, The man Adam and the Woman Eve were equal in status, and complimenting one another. It was only after the fall of man(brought by the woman) in the garden that the woman lost her equal status to the man (who was not actually the source of the fall). This was clearly stated by God in Genesis. 3vs16
"and unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shall bring forth children, and (pls take note) THY DESIRE SHALL BE TO THY HUSBAND (the man), AND HE SHALL RULE (have dominion in all things) OVER THEE."
what happened above is that, God striped the woman off all her rights and entitlements as it relates to status between the man and the woman. And this became the standard way or modus operandi in social and religious living all through the Old times (O.T) into the new (N.T), and down till the end of days.
This was what Paul was refering to in 1Tim.2vs14. Now, when Paul in 1Cor.14vs34 said "silence in the church", he clearly meant that the woman should not teach nor in any form usurp authority over the man in the church. 1Tim.2vs12. It was the freedom or equal right that the woman had with man that destroyed the first fellowship and corrupted man in the begining. So by "speak", Paul is simply saying don't assume the ro,e of pastorship, deacon, Overseer, Bishop, Choir leader, Ulsher, - all of which are positions of authority, where commands, orders, directives, ratification/implementation of communiques, opinions ,suggestions or recommendations are made. This was in line with the original order put in place as punishment unto the woman by God in Genesis.
Not the other way round!
Even in politics, God is never comfortable and happy that women are ruling over His people, how much more in His house.... "As for my people, children are their oppressors, AND WOMEN RULE over them. O my people (just immagine the feeling of unhappiness God is showing here), they which lead thee (just like today) cause thee to err, and destroy the ways of thy path." Isaiah 3vs12.
Yeah! Just like today where many have destroyed the very foundation of the apostls doctrines, and taking heed to doctrines of the Devil, Leading the people astray from the ancient landmarks of truth, by teaching the commandments of men rather than the one God Himself gave. Paul in 1Cor. 2vs1, and 4, makes it clear that eloquent of speech, enticing words of man's wisdom, does not teach the scriptures regarding the mind of God. Those who claim to fear God will keep to His words without a second thought. The decree God made in Genesis 3 was the same decree that was reiterated in 1Corinthians 14 vs34, and particularly at vs 38, where the Apostle reminded them that it was actually the Commandment of the Lord (refering back to Genesis 3vs16), and which MUST be observed in all churches of the saints. It is the same commandment he kept and also ordered his son in the Lord (Timothy) to duely observed and enforce in the church at Ephesus.
The word of God is yeah and amen. It is either you accept it as it is or you don't accept it at all. You can not accept the word of God conditionally, neither can you bend it or mis-interprete it or over emphasise it to suit your taste and like. Alot of intellectuals like the youtube one above, would always want to point out that there are errors, misquotations, misuse of words, misrepresentation, mistranslation, etc; and such others like puntuations, quotation marks, aspects of verbs, etc, etc. But the truth is, God is unlimited, beyond errors, and knows all things even before they came to be. What has been written, has been written. The way the Bible is today is how God wants it to be, and as far as God is concerned, nothing is wrong with the scriptures! No scriptures is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1vs20). The word of God interprete itself, but it is only them that have faith in it, and doesn't seek after their own, that would catch the revelation, while the rest continue to grope in intellectual darkness.
Thus, those who are redefining God's law, or trying to give the woman back her lost position, can continue on such course of deviance and rebelion against God. Just as Paul said it, "If any man choose to be ignorant, let him be ignorant".
"Behold i come quickly"...Rev.3vs11; 22vs7. "...to give every man according as his work shall be". 22vs12.
Shalom!
Paul has no right to stop women from speaking in the church. Is he God Wen did he start making rules for fellow humans.
I guessed as much, but didnt want to make the assumption you are
Maybe you're economical with the truth here or it's just innocent forgetfulness Let's jog your memory with few examples: Like staying up late beyond lights out or bed time Like returning home later than the home curfew Like not regularly tidying up your room
The parent analogy fits with God because believe it or not, God too is a Parent, a Father.
Now, the bible in a fallen world, says...
I take this as innocent and wild exuberance, the money is a penalty, not a sale You've made reference to Deuteronomy 22:28-29 but not Exodus 22:16-17 where the father has the final say, whether the man after paying the penalty can have the woman, his daughter
Wrong!. No verse says that the woman brought death/sin to world as a matter of fact and truth, death came into the world through sin, and sin actually came into the world via Adam
Pain in the mind (i.e. anguish etcetera) and the body.
You've just referenced Genesis 3:16 but you need to compare it with Genesis 4:7, in order to get a proper handle on what is going on about this desire and overruling thing freecocoa
The bible is full of stories about strange men and even males who engage in sexual activity for payment etcetera, so nothing like a convenient silence here Hang on, are you familiar with Proverbs 31:10-31 at all? If yes, there you are, if not then dust up a Bible and check it out a father's advice to a son
As seen from the above responses, I've tried to reduce the volume of what I have to say or can say about the whole lot and also tried doing it without it being overwhelming
Dont worry about that, as you've probably noticed I can handle and live with it, - the original texts, Hebrew and Greek, werent even in verses in the first instance anyway
Sounds like a non-sexual fetish to me, anyway to each his or her own
No, I am being totally honest, there were nights I stayed up past bed time ofcourse, I got away with it because my parents didn't find out and the times I was caught, I was chatized or even spanked, some of the times I got home past curfew, I was punished or scolded, my parents never supported any of my excesses willfully or not.
I thought God doesn't reason like humans, he is perfect and we humans are not, how can you compare his behaviour to that of humans?
Okay then, so if her father refuses for her to marry him, he still gets paid for her virginity, how is that fair to the woman? Her opinion isn't even needed. Okay one part of the bible says he must marry her, never to divorce her, another part says her father decides, now which one do they adhere to?
Sin came into the earth through man who was deceived by the woman, for this she was punished/cursed and because Adam listened to her,because he listened to her, the ground was cursed, why not curse adam directly? Pain is the mind and body so? What does that change?
Please how does Gen3:16 and Gen 4:7 correlate?
I am yet to see how proverbs 31 talked about strange men and adviced against them. Just like the bible admonished men against strange women.
It's not a fetish, some people like to lie even when it's clear they are lying, they just won't admit, so I love to expose their folly.
Paul has no right to stop women from speaking in the church. Is he God Wen did he start making rules for fellow humans.
Did u read what was written at all? It wasn't Paul that gave the commandment, it was God Himself that decreed it! And unto them that love God, His commandments forms the basis of their Opinion. Their opinion is derived from God's position over issues. Thus Paul's opinion was actually based on God's commandment, not just his own making.
same thing again...leaning on to the teachings of men rather than God's own directives. Kenneth Hagins is a good man, but what sayeth the word of God is the Ultimate.
malvisguy212: Gift of prophecy , anyone can have this ,female or male, because it is a GIFT ,and when a female possessed this Gift ,she should not ASUME authority over the man.
Act 2:18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
If we say women are to be quite In church, does it mean women are not even allow to pray or sing ? NO.I believe women are allow to teach and preach but not to hold an authoritative leadership role over the men in the church.
Are you saying God didn't know what He was doing when he placed apostles, prophets and teachers in the church? Read the book before you conclude! After all the bible was written by men anointed by the Spirit!
same thing again...leaning on to the teachings of men rather than God's own directives. Kenneth Hagins is a good man, but what sayeth the word of God is the Ultimate.
Hey bro, read the whole chapter in context! Paul was speaking concerning husband and wife!
Appleyard: Did u read what was written at all? It wasn't Paul that gave the commandment, it was God Himself that decreed it! And unto them that love God, His commandments forms the basis of their Opinion. Their opinion is derived from God's position over issues. Thus Paul's opinion was actually based on God's commandment, not just his own making.
Appleyard: Did u read what was written at all? It wasn't Paul that gave the commandment, it was God Himself that decreed it! And unto them that love God, His commandments forms the basis of their Opinion. Their opinion is derived from God's position over issues. Thus Paul's opinion was actually based on God's commandment, not just his own making.
Wen did he start making rules for fellow humans.