OkCornel:


That means someone like Noah and the entirety of mankind would still be saved from the flood if Noah didn't OBEY (worked) to build the ark as God instructed him?


Can't you see your argument is absurd?

Faith without works (actions, deeds) is useless and profits no one...

Is the salvation from the flood the same as salvation from condemnation in hell?

Can you see that you are the one with absurd analogy?

LifestyleTonite:


No matter how you put it you are still wrong. I can already sense a tone of defeat in you.

The works from the fruit of the spirit are not your works. They simply belong to the spirit. They are not even works but fruit.

Bottom line is works and faith goes hand in hand.

My first post on this thread made it clear to anyone who is not bereft of understanding that the works I referred to was not that of self effort, but by depending on the Spirit...


Unfortunately, you have little understanding of the works Paul spoke of and what James spoke of

OkCornel:



In answering my questions, you've gone to James.

The works in James referred to those who OBEYED the instructions of God e.g. Abraham sacrificing Isaac.

He did it not of his own understanding, but by God's instruction.


It is obviously not the same works that comes by self effort which Paul spoke of.

Do you agree?

Blind bat. Paul spoke of two efforts: the one of yourself and the works you are talking about. He says neither saves nor needed for salvation.

He says "not of yourselves" and "not of works"

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

LifestyleTonite:


Is the salvation from the flood the same as salvation from condemnation in hell?

Can you see that you are the one with absurd analogy?

Was it not a combination of faith and works (obeying God's instruction) that SAVED man from destruction?


Wait, what is your line of argument? That the Faith Noah showed is irrelevant or what?

OkCornel:


Bottom line is works and faith goes hand in hand.

My first post on this thread made it clear to anyone who is not bereft of understanding that the works I referred to was not that of self effort, but by depending on the Spirit...


Unfortunately, you have little understanding of the works Paul spoke of and what James spoke of

There's no work of the spirit aa you are putting it. It is only the fruit of the spirit.

Paul also made it clear that works is not needed.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You sound defeated again. Oya recycle James 2. I'm even surprised you haven't quoted if again. Perhaps you have accepted you got it wrong.

LifestyleTonite:


Blind bat. Paul spoke of two efforts: the one of yourself and the works you are talking about. He says neither saves nor needed for salvation.

He says "not of yourselves" and "not of works"

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Kai, God of heaven and Earth, now I know why you've been arguing so blindly...


So Paul spoke against the kind of works that had to do with obeying God's instructions?


This is the dumbest thing you'll ever accuse Paul of...


Look at whom Jesus called His friends;

John 15 v 10 & 14;

10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

14 You are my friends if you do what I command

LifestyleTonite:


There's no work of the spirit aa you are putting it. It is only the fruit of the spirit.

Paul also made it clear that works is not needed.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You sound defeated again. Oya recycle James 2. I'm even surprised you haven't quoted if again. Perhaps you have accepted you got it wrong.

As though you've not been recycling Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 here...


Now, tell us why Jesus sternly threatened the Laodicean church He would spew them out of His mouth...


Or why He would remove the Church of Ephesus from its candlestick...

These churches had faith in Jesus, yet He threatened them with rejection...

OkCornel:


Was it not a combination of faith and works (obeying God's instruction) that SAVED man from destruction?


Wait, what is your line of argument? That the Faith Noah showed is irrelevant or what?

Obeying the instruction to build the ark saved man from the flood. It didn't save man from hell fire, that's why the saviour came. But you have put it that we and Jesus work hand in hand to save us. Then it's 50/50. Wrong gospel

Jesus did the work, we don't have to do any work for our salvation. All we have to do is believe. John 3:16

Whatever work we do are just for reward.


Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If the work was needed for salvation, then salvation will no longer be considered a gift of Grace.

Romans 4:4
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

As seen above, whatever you get as per your work is a debt God owes you, which he will pay. But salvation is a gift from him which you received as a result of not doing any work but by Grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

OkCornel:


Kai, God of heaven and Earth, now I know why you've been arguing so blindly...


So Paul spoke against the kind of works that had to do with obeying God's instructions?


This is the dumbest thing you'll ever accuse Paul of...


Look at whom Jesus called His friends;

John 15 v 10 & 14;

10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

14 You are my friends if you do what I command

Now, where does the passage you quoted say God will throw his children into hell fire of they don't keep his commandments?

He will only chastise them. Even an earthly father can't throw his son to a tiger for disobedience.

For one to abide in the Love of Jesus, He has given us commandments to OBEY.

John 15 v 10 & 14;

10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

14 You are my friends if you do what I command


That ultimate commandment (work) is to love one another, love our neighbor and enemies.



If you don't DO this, you cannot abide in the vine. You will bear no fruits and be cast off into the fire...

OkCornel:


As though you've not been recycling Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 here...


Now, tell us why Jesus sternly threatened the Laodicean church He would spew them out of His mouth...


Or why He would remove the Church of Ephesus from its candlestick...

These churches had faith in Jesus, yet He threatened them with rejection...

.where in any of those stories did Jesus say he will cast them in hell fire?

LifestyleTonite:


Now, where does the passage you quoted say God will throw his children into hell fire of they don't keep his commandments?

He will only chastise them. Even an earthly father can't throw his son to a tiger for disobedience.

First off, you are an enemy of Jesus if you do not keep his commandments.

For you to abide in the vine, the condition required is to keep his commandments;


Barren branches are cut off and cast into the fire.


I will bring that parable of the vine here again..

LifestyleTonite:


.where in any of those stories did Jesus say he will cast them in hell fire?

John 15 v 1-17

The Vine and the Branches
1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.

12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

17 This is my command: Love each other.

^^^ The above parable clearly shows Jesus was addressing His followers (which extends to those who believe and trust Him today)


In that Parable, He clearly mentioned what should be done to remain in the vine and be fruitful.


Being a branch in the vine is not really the issue here. It is what has to be DONE to remain fruitful in the vine that saves you from being cut off and cast into the fire.


One needs to have a proper understanding of the works Paul spoke of. You cannot hear and believe the commandments of teaching Jesus without doing them and still think you are saved.

LifestyleTonite:


.where in any of those stories did Jesus say he will cast them in hell fire?

Please tell us what it means to;

1) To be spewed out of one's mouth (rejection)

2) And to have your candlestick removed from it's place...




If Jesus rejects you, can you still be saved?

OpenYourEyes1:


For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is.
There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles
Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

Romans 3:28 - 31

You make it look like the law is complimentary to faith AS REGARDS SALVATION of a man IN OR THROUGH CHRIST. How about you explain this:

New International Version
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."
Galatians 3:12

OkCornel:


Please tell us what it means to;

1) To be spewed out of one's mouth (rejection)

2) And to have your candlestick removed from it's place...


If Jesus rejects you, can you still be saved?

Was he talking about the individual humans or the church?

If he rejects the church or puts off their candle light, the individuals can move to another church

OkCornel:


As though you've not been recycling Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 here...


Now, tell us why Jesus sternly threatened the Laodicean church He would spew them out of His mouth...


Or why He would remove the Church of Ephesus from its candlestick...

These churches had faith in Jesus, yet He threatened them with rejection...

I've not been recycling it. You are the one not refuting it as wrongly applied. It's when you do correctly, which you can't, that I will stop bringing it back.

LifestyleTonite:


There's no work of the spirit aa you are putting it. It is only the fruit of the spirit.

Paul also made it clear that works is not needed.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You sound defeated again. Oya recycle James 2. I'm even surprised you haven't quoted if again. Perhaps you have accepted you got it wrong.

Please tell us what the works of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit are...


And why they were put side by side in the same chapter of Galatians...


Works and fruits in this context means the same thing. The RESULTS/DEEDS/OUTCOMES of walking in the flesh or the spirit...

You need understanding.

OkCornel:


Kai, God of heaven and Earth, now I know why you've been arguing so blindly...


So Paul spoke against the kind of works that had to do with obeying God's instructions?


This is the dumbest thing you'll ever accuse Paul of...


Look at whom Jesus called His friends;

John 15 v 10 & 14;

10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

14 You are my friends if you do what I command

God only spoke against works as a means of salvation.

LifestyleTonite:


Was he talking about the individual humans or the church?

If he rejects the church or puts off their candle light, the individuals can move to another church

Please who makes up the church?

OkCornel:


John 15 v 1-17

The Vine and the Branches
1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.

12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

17 This is my command: Love each other.

I've answered this already.

Go and reply that post of mine.

You are afraid to do that because you know everyone will see the truth. So you just act like you didn't see it.

LifestyleTonite:


God only spoke against works as a means of salvation.

Explain to us what Jesus meant by abiding in Him (the vine)...


Can you believe in Jesus without doing His commandments and still bear fruits? No!


Faith without works is nothing more than a barren branch that bears no fruit.

LifestyleTonite:


I've answered this already.

Go and reply that post of mine.

You are afraid to do that because you know everyone will see the truth. So you just act like you didn't see it.

Lol... you want to tell us how one can abide in the vine without OBEYING THE COMMANDMENTS of Jesus?

How can one abide (remain) in Jesus the vine without DOING his commandments?

Take note, commandments...

OkCornel:



Please tell us what the works of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit are...


And why they were put side by side in the same chapter of Galatians...


Works and fruits in this context means the same thing. The RESULTS/DEEDS/OUTCOMES of walking in the flesh or the spirit...

You need understanding.

If I get you clearly, one needs the fruit of the spirit which you call works to be saved. This still goes against your stance that one needs to do works to be saved, because the "works" of the spirit are not your own work but the work done by the spirit. So clearly you are still not doing any work.


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

OkCornel:


Explain to us what Jesus meant by abiding in Him (the vine)...


Can you believe in Jesus without doing His commandments and still bear fruits? No!


Faith without works is nothing more than a barren branch that bears no fruit.

@bold

No verse to back it up.

OkCornel:


Lol... you want to tell us how one can abide in the vine without OBEYING THE COMMANDMENTS of Jesus?

Go and reply my post

Stop running away from it Mr Satanist

LifestyleTonite:


If I get you clearly, one needs the fruit of the spirit which you call works to be saved. This still goes against your stance that one needs to do works to be saved, because the "works" of the spirit are not your own work but the work done by the spirit. So clearly you are still not doing any work.


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Finally, you are getting my point. I am not referring to works of self effort. That kind of work will save nobody.

Look at the definition of works I spoke of on my first post on this thread.

Note: The works I am talking of here is not that of the Law, but the fruits that manifests by having the Holy Spirit, and following His lead to take decisions.

https://www.nairaland.com/5211669/saved-grace-alone-filthy-doctrine/2#79668113

LifestyleTonite:


Go and reply my post

Stop running away from it Mr Satanist

I am a Satanist for saying no one can abide in the vine without OBEYING THE COMMANDMENTS of Jesus?

It's interesting to hear this from a supposed follower of Jesus...

OkCornel:


Finally, you are getting my point. I am not referring to works of self effort. That kind of work will save nobody.

Look at the definition of works I spoke of on my first post on this thread.

Note: The works I am talking of here is not that of the Law, but the fruits that manifests by having the Holy Spirit, and following His lead to take decisions.

https://www.nairaland.com/5211669/saved-grace-alone-filthy-doctrine/2#79668113

Even at that, it is still not your work. It is the work of the holy Spirit.

So you see, all the work needed for you to be saved are done by...

...God who gave his Son as gift,

...Jesus the gift who died on the cross and rose again

... and the Holy Spirit who gives his fruits.

You are no way in any of the equation.

LifestyleTonite:


Even at that, it is still not your work. It is the work of the holy Spirit.

So you see, all the work needed for you to be saved are done by...

...God who gave his Son as gift,

...Jesus the gift who died on the cross and rose again

... and the Holy Spirit who gives his fruits.

You are no way in any of the equation.

What part of depending on the Holy Spirit and the words/commandments of Jesus do you not understand?

I have mentioned severally that works by self effort (by your strength) is nothing...

If you depend on the Holy Spirit and the words of Jesus to bear fruits... how then is such works of your own making?

The part we are required to do is;

1) Hear and Believe (Faith)
2) Obey (Take action)

The results from the above shows the fruits, results, deeds, works e.t.c.