orisa37:





The SPIRIT is in all Things (Animates or Inanimate). Only God determines their Lives and Deaths.

Lives and Deaths are SPIRITS too.

You did not answer my questions.

shadeyinka:

Man is a living soul in a body. The body was first created from clay: it was after the body that the ruach from God made the lifeless body alive.

If man's carcass isn't the one thrown into the lake of fire, then, you must account for his soul that makes the dead carcass living.


You have slipped into the error of using only one definition for soul forgetting that you said that the soul has three basic definition of which "Life Force" is one of them.


Your argument is flawed because @bolded make it look like you mean the soul is mere AIR! The soul isn't air but that input from God that give consciousness to the carcass/body of man.

Why do you think the scripture made a distinction between the body, soul and spirit?

1Ths 5:23:
"And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blamelessly at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


Your question:
The soul of the body comes after and not before the body is made.
The soul of man is the software that runs the physical body and gives the body a consciousness and personal identity.


A Question:
Is your soul different from your body?
If they are the same, is medically keeping a body alive tantamount to keeping the soul alive?
If they are not the same, is it not saying that the union of man's body and soul is cast into the lake of fire?

Note: The question is like asking you if softwares is different from the hardware of a computer.

See analogy.

If your soul is software then who developed it or programmed it?



Is ones personality independent of ones self?

shadeyinka:

Man is a living soul in a body. The body was first created from clay: it was after the body that the ruach from God made the lifeless body alive.

If man's carcass isn't the one thrown into the lake of fire, then, you must account for his soul that makes the dead carcass living.


You have slipped into the error of using only one definition for soul forgetting that you said that the soul has three basic definition of which "Life Force" is one of them.


Your argument is flawed because @bolded make it look like you mean the soul is mere AIR! The soul isn't air but that input from God that give consciousness to the carcass/body of man.

Why do you think the scripture made a distinction between the body, soul and spirit?

1Ths 5:23:
"And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blamelessly at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


Your question:
The soul of the body comes after and not before the body is made.
The soul of man is the software that runs the physical body and gives the body a consciousness and personal identity.


A Question:
Is your soul different from your body?
If they are the same, is medically keeping a body alive tantamount to keeping the soul alive?
If they are not the same, is it not saying that the union of man's body and soul is cast into the lake of fire?

Note: The question is like asking you if softwares is different from the hardware of a computer.

Can soul emotions and personality exist without your body?

orisa37:
The SOUL.

Then why is their a resurrection?

Maximus69:


He is a TEACHER who will TEACH his folks what's in the Bible but the one foretold to be a WONDERFUL TEACHER never came to TEACH but to die!

Walahi Talahi i thank God for the opportunity Seun gave me to hear the views of this misinformed churchgoers on Nairaland, how can someone know that they're this stupid and full of fallacies?

No wonder they can't go from house to house to preach and teach like Jehovah's Witnesses, is this crap worth changing the hearts of people to make any real change?

Jesus is NOT a teacher but the same Jesus said "what i teach is not mine" John 7:16

Please i'm out of here!

I came across this this morning and it reminded me of this argument.

Here is the story of God,Abraham and a non-Christian King Abimelech.

God judged the king by his conscience.

This is in line with Paul's word that the Gentiles(other nations) who do not have the law will be judged by their conscience,
Jesus also taught the same principle when he taught people to do to others what they want others to do for them, he also taught people to love God with all their hearts and to love their neighbors as their self.
This is the golden rule on which everyone will be judged.

You will agree that Jesus asking people to love their neighbors like themselves is same as asking people to acting according to their conscience. because everyone wants to best for themselves and no one wants bad things done to them. so anyone who lives by there conscience as Jesus taught would not hurt or do bad things to others.


This is what the bible teaches not some false teaching that require you to twist several bible verses in order to suit your teaching.


Here is the story.


Genesis 20:1 And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar. 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, LORD, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? 20:5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine. 20:8 Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid. 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done. 20:10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing? 20:11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. 20:12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. 20:13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother. 20:14 And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and restored him Sarah his wife. 20:15 And Abimelech said, Behold, my land is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee. 20:16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved. 20:17 So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children. 20:18 For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.

TATIME:


Continue TEACHING your folks on Nairaland what you want to, since you've disqualified Jesus as a TEACHER you can take your leave.
Thanks!

I came across this this morning and it reminded me of this argument.
Here is the story of God,Abraham and a non-Christian King Abimelech.
God judged the king by his conscience.
This is in line with Paul's word that the Gentiles(other nations) who do
not have the law will be judged by their conscience,
Jesus also taught the same principle when he taught people to do to
others what they want others to do for them, he also taught people to
love God with all their hearts and to love their neighbors as their self.
This is the golden rule on which everyone will be judged.
You will agree that Jesus asking people to love their neighbors like
themselves is same as asking people to acting according to their
conscience. because everyone wants to best for themselves and no one
wants bad things done to them. so anyone who lives by there conscience
as Jesus taught would not hurt or do bad things to others.
This is what the bible teaches not some false teaching that require you
to twist several bible verses in order to suit your teaching.
Here is the story.
Genesis 20:1 And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south
country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.
20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and
Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. 20:3 But God came to
Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a
dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, LORD, wilt thou
slay also a righteous nation? 20:5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister?
and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my
heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. 20:6 And God said
unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of
thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore
suffered I thee not to touch her. 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his
wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live:
and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou,
and all that are thine. 20:8 Therefore Abimelech rose early in the
morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their
ears: and the men were sore afraid. 20:9 Then Abimelech called
Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what
have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom
a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
20:10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou
hast done this thing? 20:11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely
the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's
sake. 20:12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my
father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
20:13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my
father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt
shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is
my brother. 20:14 And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and
menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and
restored him Sarah his wife. 20:15 And Abimelech said, Behold, my land
is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee. 20:16 And unto Sarah he
said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold,
he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with
all other: thus she was reproved. 20:17 So Abraham prayed unto God:
and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they
bare children. 20:18 For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of
the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.

Some people will see facts and still be trying to argue it. Here are some bible verses that backed what the @op said:
Revelation 20:10-13
[10]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[11]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12]And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

blueAgent:





On Souls talking.
Rev 20:4
Some have cited these verses to validate the immortal soul doctrine
and the belief that, upon death, people go to heaven. However, this
description is not literal, but rather is entirely symbolic. The Bible
plainly teaches that souls are mortal.
In vision, the apostle John saw before him a book or scroll sealed with
seven seals. As Christ opened each seal ( Rev. 5:5 ), John was shown
a preview of an event that would happen in the future
(“hereafter” [ 4:1 ]). Since John was “in the spirit” as the seven seals
were opened ( vs. 2 ), the events he witnessed were not actually
occurring at that time. They were heavenly previews of things that
would happen later on earth .
Upon the opening of the fifth seal ( Rev. 6:9 ), John “saw under [at the
base of] the altar the souls of them that were slain.” Christ had
shown the meaning of the seven seals when He was on earth. He
explained that the fifth seal symbolizes the coming time of Great
Tribulation ( Matt. 24:9-28 ), an event that will occur on earth.
In this vision, John was shown the future, this modern age, a time
when one martyrdom has already taken place (during the Middle Ages)
and a greater one (the Great Tribulation) is yet to happen. The souls
who were “slain” (martyred Christian throughout the ages) were told,
in Revelation 6:11 , to “rest yet for a little season, until their
fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they
were, should be fulfilled.” Those who have died will continue to
“rest” (remain “asleep [ Eph. 5:14 ; I Cor. 11:30 ]” in their graves), until
others are also martyred as they were.
The “souls” (dead saints) crying “avenge our blood” ( vs. 10 ) is akin to
Abel’s blood (his life [note Lev. 17:14 ]) crying to God from the earth
( Gen. 4:10 ). Since blood does not talk and neither do the dead ( Psa.
115:17 ; Ecc. 9:5 , 10 ), we understand the meaning to be symbolic, not
literal. Therefore, the “souls under the altar” represent those awaiting
the future martyrdom of saints.

You can see that it's easy to say these are symbolic but it is not easy to explain the symbols according to your doctrines.

Rev6:9-11
Let assume "Souls Talking" be symbolic as of Abel's blood crying out from the ground.
What is the symbolic meaning of they were clothed With White Clothes?
What is the significance of "and it was said to them that they should rest of a little while.."?

Rev 6:9-11: "And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little time, until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they [were] ) should have their number made complete."


Your second bolded where you assert that the visions were heavenly preview of what was to happen.
This is not entirely correct for the Book of Revelation is a mixture of the past, present and future. Even if Rev6:9-11 was the future, it still doesn't make it symbolic but literal future events.

Now, you didn't say anything about
1. Saul, Samuel and the witch of Endor. Who did Saul see and spoke with?
How come the supposed unconscious Samuel spoke to Saul?

2. "Today you will be with me in paradise" makes no sense if the dead are in an unconscious state. For by your doctrine, both both the evil thief and the good thief should be unconscious and the promise of paradise for one holds no water.

Is this not also a sufficient proof?

3. On Lazarus and the rich man, if Jesus was teaching a parable, what message was Jesus teaching? For the Rich man had Brothers who were still alive.

What is your response to this as it isn't the final judgement!?

blueAgent:



See analogy.

If your soul is software then who developed it or programmed it?

God is the source of every soul and spirit. But if you know anything about "artificial intelligence", the soul of a man is a superior form where a program has the ability to reprogram itself and grow with available data and information. Ultimately, the programmer does not decide for the program.

blueAgent:

Is ones personality independent of ones self?

You (internal) is your Personality.
Your personality is only expressed to the rest of the Physical realm by your body. Is it not possible to hate or be angry yet put in a smiling face?

shadeyinka:

You can see that it's easy to say these are symbolic but it is not easy to explain the symbols according to your doctrines.

Rev6:9-11
Let assume "Souls Talking" be symbolic as of Abel's blood crying out from the ground.
What is the symbolic meaning of they were clothed With White Clothes?
What is the significance of "and it was said to them that they should rest of a little while.."?

Rev 6:9-11: "And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little time, until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they [were] ) should have their number made complete."


Your second bolded where you assert that the visions were heavenly preview of what was to happen.
This is not entirely correct for the Book of Revelation is a mixture of the past, present and future. Even if Rev6:9-11 was the future, it still doesn't make it symbolic but literal future events.

Now, you didn't say anything about
1. Saul, Samuel and the witch of Endor. Who did Saul see and spoke with?
How come the supposed unconscious Samuel spoke to Saul?

2. "Today you will be with me in paradise" makes no sense if the dead are in an unconscious state. For by your doctrine, both both the evil thief and the good thief should be unconscious and the promise of paradise for one holds no water.

Is this not also a sufficient proof?

3. On Lazarus and the rich man, if Jesus was teaching a parable, what message was Jesus teaching? For the Rich man had Brothers who were still alive.

What is your response to this as it isn't the final judgement!?

If you can answer this questions you would find your answers.

1. did Jesus go to Heaven that same day he died on the Cross?
2. did Saul see Samuel or he was told it was Samuel?
3. Do Souls have heads that were beheaded?
4. Can a persons personality,emotions, faculty exists without live and the
body?
If Souls and speak than God must be a liar for saying the dead know
nothing and are unconcouis?
Mr know all.
Define what a spirit and a soul is with bible examples.

shadeyinka:

God is the source of every soul and spirit. But if you know anything about "artificial intelligence", the soul of a man is a superior form where a program has the ability to reprogram itself and grow with available data and information. Ultimately, the programmer does not decide for the program.


You (internal) is your Personality.
Your personality is only expressed to the rest of the Physical realm by your body. Is it not possible to hate or be angry yet put in a smiling face?

A mans Soul is an aggregate of ones Characters, emotions, will personality, they are formed over time by a person.

Does ones SOUL has a hand, head, eyes and live of its own outside the body?


Can not a man's soul exist outside his body?

blueAgent:



Can soul emotions and personality exist without your body?

If angels can have emotions and personality, then humans can have emotions and personalities without their bodies. A man can only fulfill this when he is absent from his body in physical death. Or what do you think this scripture mean:

2Cor 5:6-8:
"Then being always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord."

blueAgent:



A mans Soul is an aggregate of ones Characters, emotions, will personality, they are formed over time by a person.

Does ones SOUL has a hand, head, eyes and live of its own outside the body?


Can not a man's soul exist outside his body?

A person's soul is his personal identity and this include his intellect, emotion and will. It is the "I", "Me", "Myself". It is different from the physical body for if surgically your limbs, heart, lungs and liver is replaced with another man's organs, your identity remains with you. Except if you are of those who believe that the soul is just your brain.

A man's soul can exist in his spirit body just as his soul can exist in his physical body.

blueAgent:




If you can answer this questions you would find your answers.

1. did Jesus go to Heaven that same day he died on the Cross?
2. did Saul see Samuel or he was told it was Samuel?
3. Do Souls have heads that were beheaded?
4. Can a persons personality,emotions, faculty exists without live and the
body?
If Souls and speak than God must be a liar for saying the dead know
nothing and are unconcouis?
Mr know all.
Define what a spirit and a soul is with bible examples.

I wish you first answer my questions rather than evading it by asking other questions. When you do, I promise to answer all these new questions

blueAgent:


Are you dumb?

The word state can mean a sovereign nation, a sub division of a nation or the condition of something or a place. depending on the context the word state is applied.

Based on your logic anywhere we see the word state it must mean all three at the same time?

You really need help.

Is light from a bulb different from the bulb?

If the electricity supply to a light bulb is switched off what happens to the light?

Does it still exist in its own.
If power is restored to the bulb what happens?

thats exactly what happens with human body.

The spirit or breathe from God is the electricity, our bodies is the bulb the light that it produces is our soul or personality.

I checked my quotation leading to this response and it looks like it was meant for someone else for I didn't speak anywhere of any "STATE"!

You may confirm

blueAgent:

You are one of the most stubborn person I have ever argued with and the most annoying part is your argument is senseless without facts or foundation.

My response will be more of questions to see if I can reawake your senses.

1. did Jesus go to Heaven that same day he died on the Cross?

Jesus did not go to heaven. And He didn't tell the "good thief" he'll be going to heaven but Paradise!

blueAgent:

2. did Saul see Samuel or he was told it was Samuel?

1. 1Sam 28:12: "And the woman saw Samuel, and cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? For you [are] Saul!"

2. 1Sam 28:14: "And he said to her, What [is] his form? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a cloak. And Saul saw that it was Samuel, and [he] bowed [his] face to the ground, and prostrated himself.

3. 1Sam 28:15: "And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?
And Saul answered, I am grievously distressed, for the Philistines are warring against me. And God has left me and does not answer me any more, neither by prophets nor by dreams. And I have called you so that you may make known to me what I should do."

4. 1Sam 28:16: "And Samuel said, Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has left you and has become your enemy?"

The witch saw Samuel
Saul saw that it was Samuel
Samuel spoke to Saul
Samuel judged Saul

blueAgent:

3. Do Souls have heads that were beheaded?

You've entered into the error of assuming soul means just one definition instead of three
i. Person, People
ii. Will, Emotion and Intellect
iii. Self Identity.
In context, I saw the people who were beheaded (past tense)

Rev 6:9-11:
"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little time, until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they [were] ) should have their number made complete."

Even though physically dead, they were regarded as living (souls, people) for they were not unconscious and had their will, emotion and intellect complete. They were even told to have a little more patience untill their fellow brothers be also killed.

blueAgent:

4. Can a persons personality,emotions, faculty exists without live and the body?

I've answered this before. Yes a person's personality, faculty exist with either his Spirit body or his Physical body. While Jesus body was in the tomb, was he unconscious? Was Jesus unconscious before his resurrection on the third day?

blueAgent:

If Souls and speak than God must be a liar for saying the dead know nothing and are unconcouis?

Even you know that death could mean
1. Physical death
2. Spiritual death
3. Second death.
Does a physically dead person's corpse feel or know anything? Isn't this the context?
Has my argument ever been that corpse are alive and know or feel things?

Eccl 9:5:
"At least the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing; they no longer have a reward, since memory about them has been forgotten."
If I decide to argue in your typical fashion, I'll ask
1. If the dead no longer have a reward, why then is there resurrection and judgement of the dead.
Rev 20:12: "And I saw the dead , the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, [which is] the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
2. If the memory of the dead are forgotten, how come we still remembers hero's of Faith like Abraham, Gideon, Enoch, etc?

blueAgent:

Mr know all.
Define what a spirit and a soul is with bible examples.

That has been done check my previous posts to you. I will not repeat myself.

blueAgent:


Then why is their a resurrection?

Resurrection is the Assurance and the evidence of eternity.

blueAgent:


You did not answer my questions.

.




In all that I have said above? Maybe I don't understand your question or I am not blue enough to be your agent.

blueAgent:


Then why is their a resurrection?

Cc: orisa37

Man was designed and fashioned to be a Trinity consisting of His Physical Body, His Spirit and His Soul.

Death is a disconnection! Physical death occurs when a Man's body is disconnected/separated from the union of his Soul and Spirit.

Resurrection recombines a man's physical body with the union of his Soul and Spirit. Man was not designed to live for eternity in heaven but on the new earth with his physical body.

orisa37:




Resurrection is the Assurance and the evidence of eternity.

Thats not what I asked you, I mean what resurrects is it the body,soul or spirit?

shadeyinka:

Jesus did not go to heaven. And He didn't tell the "good thief" he'll be going to heaven but Paradise!



1. 1Sam 28:12: "And the woman saw Samuel, and cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? For you [are] Saul!"

2. 1Sam 28:14: "And he said to her, What [is] his form? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a cloak. And Saul saw that it was Samuel, and [he] bowed [his] face to the ground, and prostrated himself.

3. 1Sam 28:15: "And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?
And Saul answered, I am grievously distressed, for the Philistines are warring against me. And God has left me and does not answer me any more, neither by prophets nor by dreams. And I have called you so that you may make known to me what I should do."

4. 1Sam 28:16: "And Samuel said, Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has left you and has become your enemy?"

The witch saw Samuel
Saul saw that it was Samuel
Samuel spoke to Saul
Samuel judged Saul




You've entered into the error of assuming soul means just one definition instead of three
i. Person, People
ii. Will, Emotion and Intellect
iii. Self Identity.
In context, I saw the people who were beheaded (past tense)

Rev 6:9-11:
"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little time, until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they [were] ) should have their number made complete."

Even though physically dead, they were regarded as living (souls, people) for they were not unconscious and had their will, emotion and intellect complete. They were even told to have a little more patience untill their fellow brothers be also killed.


I've answered this before. Yes a person's personality, faculty exist with either his Spirit body or his Physical body. While Jesus body was in the tomb, was he unconscious? Was Jesus unconscious before his resurrection on the third day?


Even you know that death could mean
1. Physical death
2. Spiritual death
3. Second death.
Does a physically dead person's corpse feel or know anything? Isn't this the context?
Has my argument ever been that corpse are alive and know or feel things?

Eccl 9:5:
"At least the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing; they no longer have a reward, since memory about them has been forgotten."
If I decide to argue in your typical fashion, I'll ask
1. If the dead no longer have a reward, why then is there resurrection and judgement of the dead.
Rev 20:12: "And I saw the dead , the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, [which is] the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
2. If the memory of the dead are forgotten, how come we still remembers hero's of Faith like Abraham, Gideon, Enoch, etc?


That has been done check my previous posts to you. I will not repeat myself.

So Paradise is different from Heaven?

The Bible cannot contradict itself. God word says that the dead know nothing neither do they eat, talk or praise God. so it will be impossible for Samuel to know anything or say anything to Saul.

That implies That a Demon impersonated Samuel and deceived the Witch woman and Saul.


The Dead do not Know Anything
The Bible is very plain. It says the dead do not know anything. Look at
this text:
5. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not
any thing , neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of
them is forgotten.
6. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now
perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing
that is done under the sun.
10. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for
there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the
grave , whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10.
Now for the first time we see death described. "The dead know not any
thing!" Everything about them is gone, their memory, their love, their
hatred, their envy, and they no longer act. They are asleep. They are
nonexistent.
4. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very
day his thoughts perish . Psalms 146:4.
Again we see that when the breath of life goes back to God and the body
returns to dust, that their thoughts perish. It should be clear that the dead
cannot talk, or think or do anything. They essentially no longer exist as a
living thinking person.
This agrees with what we saw before. Adam became a living person. He
became a living soul. So now, when we die, we cease from being a living
person. We cease from being a living soul. We no longer exist because
our thoughts perish.
This also agrees with Jesus' description of death. He called it sleep as
we saw earlier.
There is more.
17. The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into
silence .
18. But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for
evermore. Praise the LORD. Psalms 115:17-18.
So a major difference is made. The dead cannot praise God at all but
those who live can.
4. Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies'
sake.
5. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who
shall give thee thanks ? Psalms 6:4-5.
17. Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love
to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast
all my sins behind thy back.
18. For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate
thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth .
19. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the
father to the children shall make known thy truth. Job 38:17-19.
Apparently a few of the writers in Psalms and also Job, are pleading to
be delivered by God. They are saying to God that they can praise Him if
they are alive but if they die they can no longer give God thanks.
31. Who shall declare his way to his face? And who shall repay
him what he hath done?
32. Yet shall he be brought to the grave , and shall remain in the
tomb. Job 21:31-32.
9. As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth
down to the grave shall come up no more.
10. He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place
know him any more.
11. Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the
anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
Job 7:9-11
Job sees that his only future is the grave and death. Job sees this fate of
his as depressing to the point that he is anguishing in bitterness over his
death and does not stop complaining to God.
However, as we will see in the next few sections that there is indeed a
promise of a bright future for God's people who descend into the sleep of
the grave.

shadeyinka:

Jesus did not go to heaven. And He didn't tell the "good thief" he'll be going to heaven but Paradise!



1. 1Sam 28:12: "And the woman saw Samuel, and cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? For you [are] Saul!"

2. 1Sam 28:14: "And he said to her, What [is] his form? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a cloak. And Saul saw that it was Samuel, and [he] bowed [his] face to the ground, and prostrated himself.

3. 1Sam 28:15: "And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?
And Saul answered, I am grievously distressed, for the Philistines are warring against me. And God has left me and does not answer me any more, neither by prophets nor by dreams. And I have called you so that you may make known to me what I should do."

4. 1Sam 28:16: "And Samuel said, Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has left you and has become your enemy?"

The witch saw Samuel
Saul saw that it was Samuel
Samuel spoke to Saul
Samuel judged Saul




You've entered into the error of assuming soul means just one definition instead of three
i. Person, People
ii. Will, Emotion and Intellect
iii. Self Identity.
In context, I saw the people who were beheaded (past tense)

Rev 6:9-11:
"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little time, until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they [were] ) should have their number made complete."

Even though physically dead, they were regarded as living (souls, people) for they were not unconscious and had their will, emotion and intellect complete. They were even told to have a little more patience untill their fellow brothers be also killed.


I've answered this before. Yes a person's personality, faculty exist with either his Spirit body or his Physical body. While Jesus body was in the tomb, was he unconscious? Was Jesus unconscious before his resurrection on the third day?


Even you know that death could mean
1. Physical death
2. Spiritual death
3. Second death.
Does a physically dead person's corpse feel or know anything? Isn't this the context?
Has my argument ever been that corpse are alive and know or feel things?

Eccl 9:5:
"At least the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing; they no longer have a reward, since memory about them has been forgotten."
If I decide to argue in your typical fashion, I'll ask
1. If the dead no longer have a reward, why then is there resurrection and judgement of the dead.
Rev 20:12: "And I saw the dead , the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, [which is] the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
2. If the memory of the dead are forgotten, how come we still remembers hero's of Faith like Abraham, Gideon, Enoch, etc?


That has been done check my previous posts to you. I will not repeat myself.

Yes death could mean spiritual or physical how does it prove that the dead can speak or think?


Yes Jesus was 100% uncouncious in the tomb.

Which one is spirit body?

You are getting more deillusioned by the day.


Since you take it literally the question is do Souls have physical bodies to wear white robes?

Its is the dead who their memories are forgetten not the living.

shadeyinka:

Jesus did not go to heaven. And He didn't tell the "good thief" he'll be going to heaven but Paradise!



1. 1Sam 28:12: "And the woman saw Samuel, and cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? For you [are] Saul!"

2. 1Sam 28:14: "And he said to her, What [is] his form? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a cloak. And Saul saw that it was Samuel, and [he] bowed [his] face to the ground, and prostrated himself.

3. 1Sam 28:15: "And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?
And Saul answered, I am grievously distressed, for the Philistines are warring against me. And God has left me and does not answer me any more, neither by prophets nor by dreams. And I have called you so that you may make known to me what I should do."

4. 1Sam 28:16: "And Samuel said, Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has left you and has become your enemy?"

The witch saw Samuel
Saul saw that it was Samuel
Samuel spoke to Saul
Samuel judged Saul




You've entered into the error of assuming soul means just one definition instead of three
i. Person, People
ii. Will, Emotion and Intellect
iii. Self Identity.
In context, I saw the people who were beheaded (past tense)

Rev 6:9-11:
"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little time, until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they [were] ) should have their number made complete."

Even though physically dead, they were regarded as living (souls, people) for they were not unconscious and had their will, emotion and intellect complete. They were even told to have a little more patience untill their fellow brothers be also killed.


I've answered this before. Yes a person's personality, faculty exist with either his Spirit body or his Physical body. While Jesus body was in the tomb, was he unconscious? Was Jesus unconscious before his resurrection on the third day?


Even you know that death could mean
1. Physical death
2. Spiritual death
3. Second death.
Does a physically dead person's corpse feel or know anything? Isn't this the context?
Has my argument ever been that corpse are alive and know or feel things?

Eccl 9:5:
"At least the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing; they no longer have a reward, since memory about them has been forgotten."
If I decide to argue in your typical fashion, I'll ask
1. If the dead no longer have a reward, why then is there resurrection and judgement of the dead.
Rev 20:12: "And I saw the dead , the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, [which is] the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
2. If the memory of the dead are forgotten, how come we still remembers hero's of Faith like Abraham, Gideon, Enoch, etc?


That has been done check my previous posts to you. I will not repeat myself.

Samuel or was it an impostor?
Was Samuel actually raised up from the dead? Many believe that Samuel
really came down from heaven. But did either of these things happen?
13. And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?"
And the woman said to Saul, " I saw a spirit ascending out of the
earth ."
14. So he said to her, ÒWhat is his form?Ó And she said, "An old
man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul
perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the
ground and bowed down.
15. Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by
bringing me up? " . . . 1 Samuel 28:13-15
If Samuel was truly righteous, many people would think that he would be
in heaven. If he came from heaven, why would he still be an old man. Are
not the righteous given new bodies when they go to heaven? Yet this
Samuel is said to be a spirit without a body. Why then is he still looking
old?
In the verses above we find that both the witch and the person, said to
be Samuel, both indicated that he came up from the earth and not down
from heaven. That must mean from the dead. This raises another
question: Can a witch or even Satan raise a dead person to life from their
grave? Only God can raise people to life. That is why we wait for the last
day when Jesus comes to raise up the righteous people.
The spirit that looked and sounded like Samuel, was not Samuel at all.
But it was an imposter, probably Satan. By asking questions the following
verses say we should seek God and not the dead:
19. And when they say to you, "Seek those who are mediums and
wizards, who whisper and mutter," should not a people seek their
God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?
20. To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak
according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Isaiah 8:19-20
We must not seek questions from the dead, but rather we should seek
our God that we can ask Him questions! He is the one who made us and
He will give us straight answers found in the Bible!
The dead that speak is a lie from the beginning since they are really
demons in disguise.
Manassah was an extremely wicked king of Israel:
2. And he did evil in the sight of the LORD, according to the
abominations of the nations whom the LORD had cast out before
the children of Israel. 2 Kings 21:2
After a full list of the evil things he did, the following is included:
6. Also he made his son pass through the fire, practiced
soothsaying, used witchcraft, and consulted spiritists and mediums .
He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to
anger. 2 Kings 21:6
In the Bible, the act of going to a medium or wizard was considered an
extremely evil thing to do. What it is, you are actually going to the
enemy! It is Satan and/or his evil angels or demons that you are getting
information from. It is no wonder that God calls it an abomination. All
throughout the Bible, it is condemned. Look at the following Scripture:
31. 'Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits ; do not seek
after them, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:31
6. 'And the person who turns to mediums and familiar spirits , to
prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person
and cut him off from his people . Leviticus 20:6
This is very serious! God will turn His back on you and you will be lost
when you seek mediums and familiar spirits. It is witchcraft!
27. 'A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar
spirits , shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with
stones . Their blood shall be upon them.'" Leviticus 20:27
10. "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his
son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices
witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a
sorcerer,
11. "or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one
who calls up the dead .
12. "For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD,
and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives
them out from before you. Deuteronomy 18:10-12
18. "You shall not permit a sorceress to live . Exodus 22:18
In the New Testament we see that an evil spirit came out of the person
who did fortune-telling:
16. Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave
girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her
masters much profit by fortune-telling.
17. This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, "These
men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us
the way of salvation."
18. And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed,
turned and said to the spirit, " I command you in the name of Jesus
Christ to come out of her ." And he came out that very hour. Acts
16:16-18

shadeyinka:

Jesus did not go to heaven. And He didn't tell the "good thief" he'll be going to heaven but Paradise!



1. 1Sam 28:12: "And the woman saw Samuel, and cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? For you [are] Saul!"

2. 1Sam 28:14: "And he said to her, What [is] his form? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a cloak. And Saul saw that it was Samuel, and [he] bowed [his] face to the ground, and prostrated himself.

3. 1Sam 28:15: "And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?
And Saul answered, I am grievously distressed, for the Philistines are warring against me. And God has left me and does not answer me any more, neither by prophets nor by dreams. And I have called you so that you may make known to me what I should do."

4. 1Sam 28:16: "And Samuel said, Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has left you and has become your enemy?"

The witch saw Samuel
Saul saw that it was Samuel
Samuel spoke to Saul
Samuel judged Saul




You've entered into the error of assuming soul means just one definition instead of three
i. Person, People
ii. Will, Emotion and Intellect
iii. Self Identity.
In context, I saw the people who were beheaded (past tense)

Rev 6:9-11:
"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little time, until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they [were] ) should have their number made complete."

Even though physically dead, they were regarded as living (souls, people) for they were not unconscious and had their will, emotion and intellect complete. They were even told to have a little more patience untill their fellow brothers be also killed.


I've answered this before. Yes a person's personality, faculty exist with either his Spirit body or his Physical body. While Jesus body was in the tomb, was he unconscious? Was Jesus unconscious before his resurrection on the third day?


Even you know that death could mean
1. Physical death
2. Spiritual death
3. Second death.
Does a physically dead person's corpse feel or know anything? Isn't this the context?
Has my argument ever been that corpse are alive and know or feel things?

Eccl 9:5:
"At least the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing; they no longer have a reward, since memory about them has been forgotten."
If I decide to argue in your typical fashion, I'll ask
1. If the dead no longer have a reward, why then is there resurrection and judgement of the dead.
Rev 20:12: "And I saw the dead , the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, [which is] the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
2. If the memory of the dead are forgotten, how come we still remembers hero's of Faith like Abraham, Gideon, Enoch, etc?


That has been done check my previous posts to you. I will not repeat myself.

How did Samuel reconginze Saul? since the memory of the dead is perished.

5. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not
any thing , neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of
them is forgotten.
6. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now
perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing
that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.

shadeyinka:

Jesus did not go to heaven. And He didn't tell the "good thief" he'll be going to heaven but Paradise!



1. 1Sam 28:12: "And the woman saw Samuel, and cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? For you [are] Saul!"

2. 1Sam 28:14: "And he said to her, What [is] his form? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a cloak. And Saul saw that it was Samuel, and [he] bowed [his] face to the ground, and prostrated himself.

3. 1Sam 28:15: "And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?
And Saul answered, I am grievously distressed, for the Philistines are warring against me. And God has left me and does not answer me any more, neither by prophets nor by dreams. And I have called you so that you may make known to me what I should do."

4. 1Sam 28:16: "And Samuel said, Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has left you and has become your enemy?"

The witch saw Samuel
Saul saw that it was Samuel
Samuel spoke to Saul
Samuel judged Saul




You've entered into the error of assuming soul means just one definition instead of three
i. Person, People
ii. Will, Emotion and Intellect
iii. Self Identity.
In context, I saw the people who were beheaded (past tense)

Rev 6:9-11:
"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little time, until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they [were] ) should have their number made complete."

Even though physically dead, they were regarded as living (souls, people) for they were not unconscious and had their will, emotion and intellect complete. They were even told to have a little more patience untill their fellow brothers be also killed.


I've answered this before. Yes a person's personality, faculty exist with either his Spirit body or his Physical body. While Jesus body was in the tomb, was he unconscious? Was Jesus unconscious before his resurrection on the third day?


Even you know that death could mean
1. Physical death
2. Spiritual death
3. Second death.
Does a physically dead person's corpse feel or know anything? Isn't this the context?
Has my argument ever been that corpse are alive and know or feel things?

Eccl 9:5:
"At least the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing; they no longer have a reward, since memory about them has been forgotten."
If I decide to argue in your typical fashion, I'll ask
1. If the dead no longer have a reward, why then is there resurrection and judgement of the dead.
Rev 20:12: "And I saw the dead , the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, [which is] the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
2. If the memory of the dead are forgotten, how come we still remembers hero's of Faith like Abraham, Gideon, Enoch, etc?


That has been done check my previous posts to you. I will not repeat myself.

The Sixth Question:
What about the rich man and Lazarus?
All through the Bible, it talks about death as a sleep. Jesus Himself, when
He heard of Lazarus's death, mentioned that he fell asleep.
11. These things He said, and after that He said to them, " Our
friend Lazarus sleeps , but I go that I may wake him up ."
12. Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well."
13. However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He
was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14. Then Jesus said to them plainly , "Lazarus is dead ". John
11:11-14. NIV
So it should be clear that Jesus knew that dead people are as if they
were asleep. Also since the whole Bible, over and over, refers to the dead
as sleeping (over 60 times); If we took the Rich Man and Lazarus story of
Luke 16:19-31 literally, It would go against all the rest of the Bible. We
would be making one part of the Bible go against all the other parts of
scripture. It doesn't make sense that Jesus would say one day that the
dead sleep, and in another time, He says they think and do things. Since
the Rich man and lazarus story seems to go against the rest of the Bible,
it would seem that there is something wrong with our interpretation of
the story.
There is another point that the story does not fit with the rest of the
Bible (if we take a literal point of view of the story). At the second
coming of Jesus, He will sound the trumpet, and all the dead will rise.
15. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are
still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not
precede those who have fallen asleep.
16. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven , with a loud
command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet
call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first .
17. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air . And
so we will be with the Lord for ever .
18. Therefore encourage each other with these words. 1
Thessalonians 4:15-18
If the righteous dead are already alive and doing things, why does Jesus
have to wake them up when He comes the second time? They would
already be awake.
Lets look at the Rich Man and Lazarus story itself.
19. There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and
fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores,
who was laid at his gate,
21. desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich
man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels
to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw
Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me,
and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and
cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25. But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you
received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now
he is comforted and you are tormented.
26. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf
fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor
can those from there pass to us.'
27. Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send
him to my father's house,
28. for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they
also come to this place of torment.'
29. Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let
them hear them.'
30. And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them
from the dead, they will repent.'
31. But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the
prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the
dead.' Luke 16:19-31.
The story that Jesus gave about the rich man and Lazarus is either a
literally description or it is just a story or a parable.
Here are 4 reasons why it could not possibly be literalistic:
1. The beggar died and was taken by the angels to Abraham's
bosom. No one believes that Abraham's literal bosom is the abode
of the righteous dead. It is a figurative or parabolic expression. By
the way, the angels will gather the saints, but according to
Matthew 24:31, this will take place at the coming of Jesus, not at
a person's death.
30. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,
and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will
see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.
31. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a
trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the
four winds, from one end of heaven to the other . Matthew
24:30-31.
2. Heaven and hell were separated by a gulf, and yet the persons in
each could converse with each other. There are probably few
individuals in the world who believe that this will be literally true of
the saved and the lost (Luke 16:26).
3. The rich man was in hell with a body. He had eyes, a tongue, etc.
(Luke 16:24). How did his body get into hellfire instead of into the
grave? I know of no one who teaches that the bodies of the wicked
go into hell as soon as they die. This story could not be literal.
4. The request for Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and
come through the flames to cool the rich man's tongue is obviously
not literal. How much moisture would be left and how much relief
would it give? The whole story is unrealistic and parabolic.
Jesus told this story to make a point. That even if people came back
from the dead, it would not convince anyone! (Luke 16:31) Sure enough,
when the real Lazarus was raised from the dead, they still did not believe.
The Jews only wanted to kill him to hide the evidence.

shadeyinka:

Jesus did not go to heaven. And He didn't tell the "good thief" he'll be going to heaven but Paradise!



1. 1Sam 28:12: "And the woman saw Samuel, and cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? For you [are] Saul!"

2. 1Sam 28:14: "And he said to her, What [is] his form? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a cloak. And Saul saw that it was Samuel, and [he] bowed [his] face to the ground, and prostrated himself.

3. 1Sam 28:15: "And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?
And Saul answered, I am grievously distressed, for the Philistines are warring against me. And God has left me and does not answer me any more, neither by prophets nor by dreams. And I have called you so that you may make known to me what I should do."

4. 1Sam 28:16: "And Samuel said, Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has left you and has become your enemy?"

The witch saw Samuel
Saul saw that it was Samuel
Samuel spoke to Saul
Samuel judged Saul




You've entered into the error of assuming soul means just one definition instead of three
i. Person, People
ii. Will, Emotion and Intellect
iii. Self Identity.
In context, I saw the people who were beheaded (past tense)

Rev 6:9-11:
"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little time, until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they [were] ) should have their number made complete."

Even though physically dead, they were regarded as living (souls, people) for they were not unconscious and had their will, emotion and intellect complete. They were even told to have a little more patience untill their fellow brothers be also killed.


I've answered this before. Yes a person's personality, faculty exist with either his Spirit body or his Physical body. While Jesus body was in the tomb, was he unconscious? Was Jesus unconscious before his resurrection on the third day?


Even you know that death could mean
1. Physical death
2. Spiritual death
3. Second death.
Does a physically dead person's corpse feel or know anything? Isn't this the context?
Has my argument ever been that corpse are alive and know or feel things?

Eccl 9:5:
"At least the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing; they no longer have a reward, since memory about them has been forgotten."
If I decide to argue in your typical fashion, I'll ask
1. If the dead no longer have a reward, why then is there resurrection and judgement of the dead.
Rev 20:12: "And I saw the dead , the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, [which is] the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
2. If the memory of the dead are forgotten, how come we still remembers hero's of Faith like Abraham, Gideon, Enoch, etc?


That has been done check my previous posts to you. I will not repeat myself.

4. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very
day his thoughts perish . Psalms 146:4.
5. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not
any thing Ecclesiastes 9:5 (part)

How did Samuel know Saul?



www.creation-science-prophecy.com/dead.htm

blueAgent:

So Paradise is different from Heaven?

The Bible cannot contradict itself. God word says that the dead know nothing neither do they eat, talk or praise God. so it will be impossible for Samuel to know anything or say anything to Saul.

That implies That a Demon impersonated Samuel and deceived the Witch woman and Saul.

What did the bible say?

1Sam 28:12-16:
"And the woman saw Samuel, and cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? For you [are] Saul! And the king said to her, Do not be afraid. For what did you see? And the woman said to Saul, I saw gods coming up out of the earth. And he said to her, What [is] his form? And she said, An old man comes up, and he is covered with a cloak. And Saul saw that it was Samuel, and [he] bowed [his] face to the ground, and prostrated himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am grievously distressed, for the Philistines are warring against me. And God has left me and does not answer me any more, neither by prophets nor by dreams. And I have called you so that you may make known to me what I should do. And Samuel said, Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has left you and has become your enemy?"

The Bible was explicit. This was Samuel. Go with exactly what the Bible says.

blueAgent:

The Dead do not Know Anything
The Bible is very plain. It says the dead do not know anything. Look at
this text:
5. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not
any thing , neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of
them is forgotten.
6. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now
perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing
that is done under the sun.
10. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for
there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the
grave , whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10.
Now for the first time we see death described. "The dead know not any
thing!" Everything about them is gone, their memory, their love, their
hatred, their envy, and they no longer act. They are asleep. They are
nonexistent.
4. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very
day his thoughts perish . Psalms 146:4.
Again we see that when the breath of life goes back to God and the body returns to dust, that their thoughts perish. It should be clear that the dead cannot talk, or think or do anything. They essentially no longer exist as a living thinking person.
This agrees with what we saw before. Adam became a living person. He became a living soul. So now, when we die, we cease from being a living person. We cease from being a living soul. We no longer exist because our thoughts perish.
This also agrees with Jesus' description of death. He called it sleep as we saw earlier.

The Corpse know nothing!

blueAgent:

There is more.
17. The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into
silence .
18. But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for
evermore. Praise the LORD. Psalms 115:17-18.
So a major difference is made. The dead cannot praise God at all but
those who live can.
4. Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies'
sake.
5. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who
shall give thee thanks ? Psalms 6:4-5.
17. Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love
to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast
all my sins behind thy back.
18. For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate
thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth .
19. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the
father to the children shall make known thy truth. Job 38:17-19.
Apparently a few of the writers in Psalms and also Job, are pleading to
be delivered by God. They are saying to God that they can praise Him if
they are alive but if they die they can no longer give God thanks.
31. Who shall declare his way to his face? And who shall repay
him what he hath done?
32. Yet shall he be brought to the grave , and shall remain in the
tomb. Job 21:31-32.
9. As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth
down to the grave shall come up no more.
10. He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place
know him any more.
11. Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the
anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
Job 7:9-11
Job sees that his only future is the grave and death. Job sees this fate of his as depressing to the point that he is anguishing in bitterness over his death and does not stop complaining to God.
However, as we will see in the next few sections that there is indeed a
promise of a bright future for God's people who descend into the sleep of
the grave.

Copy-Paste syndrome is disturbing you. You are just repeating yourself without adding any convincing logic.

How come Jesus said of the scripture:
Mat 22:32:
"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Doesn't this also contradict your theology? Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are long physically dead buried and rotten However God didn't say "I was the God of Abraham...". He said "I am the God (present tense)

The story of Jesus about Lazarus and the rich man. If Abraham was unconscious and the rich man was unconscious why would Jesus portray them as living, speaking, feeling and rational

blueAgent:




4. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very
day his thoughts perish . Psalms 146:4.
5. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not
any thing Ecclesiastes 9:5 (part)

How did Samuel know Saul?

Samuel and Samuel's corpse are different. Samuel's corpse may know nothing and is probably decayed up. But Samuel (Soul and Spirit) is very much alive and conscious!

shadeyinka:

I checked my quotation leading to this response and it looks like it was meant for someone else for I didn't speak anywhere of any "STATE"!

You may confirm

I used the word State as an example.

The same way the word Soul can mean 3different things in the Bible depending on the context it is used so also the same way the word State can mean 3 different things.

shadeyinka:

I wish you first answer my questions rather than evading it by asking other questions. When you do, I promise to answer all these new questions

Which question?

shadeyinka:

A person's soul is his personal identity and this include his intellect, emotion and will. It is the "I", "Me", "Myself". It is different from the physical body for if surgically your limbs, heart, lungs and liver is replaced with another man's organs, your identity remains with you. Except if you are of those who believe that the soul is just your brain.

A man's soul can exist in his spirit body just as his soul can exist in his physical body.

Where is it written that we have a spirit body?

If we have a spirit body why is Paul teaching that the just will be resurrected and there bodies transformed?

shadeyinka:

If angels can have emotions and personality, then humans can have emotions and personalities without their bodies. A man can only fulfill this when he is absent from his body in physical death. Or what do you think this scripture mean:

2Cor 5:6-8:
"Then being always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord."

The Fourth Question:
What does Paul mean by in the body or out of the body
in 2 Corinthians 12:2-3?
Let's read the text and a few other verses:
1. It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to
visions and revelations of the Lord:
2. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the
body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God
knows -- such a one was caught up to the third heaven .
3. And I know such a man -- whether in the body or out of the body
I do not know, God knows --
4. how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible
words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5. Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except
in my infirmities.
6. For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will
speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above
what he sees me to be or hears from me.
7. And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance
of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a
messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
2 Corinthians 12:1-7
This text is usually used to prove the doctrine of an immortal soul.
However it does not talk about that at all. Most commentators concede
that Paul was describing his own experience, because he spoke in context
of his own revelations or dreams.
Paul was concerned that no one should think he was glorying or boasting
about his visions. For this reason, he ascribed the experience to a man he
knew.
Paul's soul did not leave his body, in spite of claims to the contrary. He
was not puzzled over whether he had died or not. He was merely
uncertain as to whether he dreamt it or if he went there in person, in real
life.
Although it seemed that he was bodily taken to heaven, yet he felt it
possible that he was taken there only in a dream or vision. He confessed
to complete ignorance as to what actually happened.
The physical impressions seemed as though he were "out of the body," in
a way of speaking. In the same way, Paul wrote to the Colossian church,
"For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit."
Colossians 2:5 . No one interprets this to mean that some immortal soul
left Paul's body to be with his friends. He was only saying he was thinking
of them.
The Fifth Question:
Doesn't Paul teach "to be absent from the body is to be
present with the Lord?"
In the text below, we can see that in the first four verses, Paul is
contrasting the mortal state that we find ourselves in with immortal life in
heaven.
1. Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we
have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by
human hands.
2. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly
dwelling ,
3. because when we are clothed , we will not be found naked .
4. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened,
because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our
heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by
life .
5. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has
given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6. Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as
we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
7. We live by faith, not by sight.
8. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the
body and at home with the Lord.
9. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home
in the body or away from it .
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ,
that each one may receive what is due to him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
11. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to
persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also
plain to your conscience. 2 Corinthians 5:1-11 NIV
Clearly, in verse 3, to be naked or unclothed is death. It is not being
mortal nor immortal because Paul clearly describes two sets of clothes.
The first is mortality, the earthly tent that we groan in while we long to
be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, a building from God, an eternal
house in heaven, not built by human hands, which is immortality.
In Verse 5 Paul says that we were made for the very purpose of having
immortality and we have been given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of
what is to come.
In verse 6 and 7 we are told that we live by faith, not by sight because
we are in this mortal body and we cannot see God directly. This is what
we all experience.
Verse 8 and 9 is what gives problems. What does Paul mean by saying
we would be prefer to be away from the body and be at home with the
Lord? Having no body does not match any of the three conditions
described in verses 1-4 (1. mortality-the earthly tent, 2. death-being
naked, 3. immortality-clothed with our heavenly dwelling).
This could be a reference to visions and dreams as Paul does in 2
Corinthians 12:2-4. He would rather be with God in vision rather than be in
his mortal body on earth. See the discussion above.
In the first letter to the Corinthians, Paul had already told them WHEN we
would all receive immortality,
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for
the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed .
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal
must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to
pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory . 1
Corinthians 15:51-54.
Paul also wrote in his closing testimony:
6. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure
is at hand.
7. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have
kept the faith:
8. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,
which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and
not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing . 2
Timothy 4:6-8.
It should be clear that Paul believed he would be with the Lord when
Jesus appears again.