davidnazee:


The Oke Ora story started some few years ago when the Yorubas realized 2 important facts.

1. The accounts of descent from the sky and trekking from Mecca are absurd
2. Oduduwa actually came from East of Ife

Since Benin is actually east of Ife making the Benin account more realistic and logical they came up with oke ora. Oke Ora wasn’t in existence during the time of oduduwa.

TAO is fighting a loosing battle. You can’t change history..

didn’t ur oral history says ur Ohio’s came from the sky. Do u know how many African tribes use same came from the sky to the describe their king. Of course it’s a myth and like I said a myth long after he was gone just like how king like sango and Ogun were deified after their death. Second Mecca theory are from Yoruba Muslim who wants to ascribe oduduwa to islam. The only true account is he came from east of ife and to the east of ife is oke-Ora. If I say am from north of oyo doesn’t mean am from the north. And please tell me when oke-Ora exist

Moneywomen17:
didn’t ur oral history says ur Ohio’s came from the sky. Do u know how many African tribes use same came from the sky to the describe their king. Of course it’s a myth and like I said a myth long after he was gone just like how king like sango and Ogun were deified after their death. Second Mecca theory are from Yoruba Muslim who wants to ascribe oduduwa to islam. The only true account is he came from east of ife and to the east of ife is oke-Ora. If I say am from north of oyo doesn’t mean am from the north. And please tell me when oke-Ora exist

Well one thing I agree on is that myths shouldn’t be used to argue history because myths always turn out to be false.. unlike TAO11 that backs up his/her argument using myths as evidence.
History will say one thing and TAO11 will say another.

I don’t argue about Benin myths or use it as evidence in my argument because I don’t believe in myths, I prefer reality on ground to make my assessment.

If u say Oduduwa is from Oke Ora, I have read article against that idea and it says Oke Ora wasn’t even in existence during the time of Oduduwa. and the Oke Ora story even says oduduwa descended on a chain from Oke Ora down to Ife. Is Oke Ora in the sky or mountainous area?

gregyboy:



Nice work on the summary

Please i neex the article on the oyo paying tribute to benin

I actually got it from one of Silversniper's replies


"The kingdom of Benin was so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told a British governor that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its king." - Asibong Akpan Okon, The evolution of self-government of Nigeria (1955), p. 36

Asibong Okon was referring to this:

"This Kingdom of Benin was at one time so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told me that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its King." - United Empire, Volume 2 (1911), p. 620

https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=AE45AQAAMAAJ&dq=predecessors+pay+tribute

Forgot the British governor's name (I looked through the United Empire book years ago, but didn't make any notes), but that 1911 quote is authentic.

You can make what you want out of the quote. From my own perspective, power relations in a political context are usually based on realpolitik and determined by the practical facts on the ground, not necessarily myths or legends.
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naxclimpsey:


Wetin concern me, my brother we are living together here is from benin and nothing like a fight. Nigeria is one if we the youth use our senses

Nigeria is not one please.

One Nigeria is a crime against humanity.

davidnazee:


Well one thing I agree on is that myths shouldn’t be used to argue history because myths always turn out to be false.. unlike TAO11 that backs up his/her argument using myths as evidence.
History will say one thing and TAO11 will say another.

I don’t argue about Benin myths or use it as evidence in my argument because I don’t believe in myths, I prefer reality on ground to make my assessment.

If u say Oduduwa is from Oke Ora, I have read article against that idea and it says Oke Ora wasn’t even in existence during the time of Oduduwa. and the Oke Ora story even says oduduwa descended on a chain from Oke Ora down to Ife. Is Oke Ora in the sky or mountainous area?

where did u read oke-Ora wasn’t in existence then. There are hills in oke-ota yes.
Read this https://www.informationng.com/2015/11/new-ooni-of-ife-presented-with-the-aare-crown-worn-once-a-year.html

MelesZenawi:


Nigeria is not one please.

One Nigeria is a crime to humanity.

Who would blame you after all the fighting that goes on online on daily basis.

You must have been really enjoying yourself and laughing your head off.

Funny, we still can't afford to do without each others.

You can disagree with this, but as I type this reply, there are numerous tribal intermingling, interrelationships and intermarriages ongoing producing intermixed Nigerians.

Nigerians are tangling and mixing daily with the numbers of Nigerians carrying the blood of various tribes in their veins increasing.

Moneywomen17:
where did u read oke-Ora wasn’t in existence then. There are hills in oke-ota yes.
Read this https://www.informationng.com/2015/11/new-ooni-of-ife-presented-with-the-aare-crown-worn-once-a-year.html

Well he may be from Oke Ora and may also not be from there. The oduduwa story and origin will always remain a myth. I think it’s best we celebrate our various traditional myths rather than tear each other down with it.

MetaPhysical:
United Empire said a lot...

Should its saying about power relations be regarded credible, its revelations of descendancy will equally qualify.

love this where did u get it. I need that book.

davidnazee:


Well he may be from Oke Ora and may also not be from there. The oduduwa story and origin will always remain a myth. I think it’s best we celebrate our various traditional myths rather than tear each other down with it.

oke-Ora has not been regarded a myth but oral tradition. There is a difference. Someone coming from the sky and creating earth is a myth. Coming from Mecca a place Yoruba has no idea about before Islam is a recent conjecture much like the ibo origin to Israel. Even ur elkadaharen is not a myth but oral tradition.

samuk:


Who would blame you after all the fighting that goes on online on daily basis.

You must have been really enjoying yourself and laughing your head off.

Funny, we still can't afford to do without each others.

You can disagree with this, but as I type this reply, there are numerous tribal intermingling, interrelationships and intermarriages ongoing producing intermixed Nigerians.

Nigerians are tangling and mixing daily with the numbers of Nigerians carrying the blood of various tribes in their veins increasing.

Man is not an Island. As big as America is, they depend on other countries same as Germany, south Africa and infact all countries of the world depends on each other while maintaining their sovereignty.


So there is nothing one Nigeria can offer, a separate country can't offer.

The issue of we can't do without each other is a lie and needs to be buried.


Relationship is built not forced.

Moneywomen17:
oke-Ora has not been regarded a myth but oral tradition. There is a difference. Someone coming from the sky and creating earth is a myth. Coming from Mecca a place Yoruba has no idea about before Islam is a recent conjecture much like the ibo origin to Israel. Even ur elkadaharen is not a myth but oral tradition.

Myths are defined as a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon...
So Oke Ora story, Mecca, ogisos from the sky, Ife empire, ekhaladeran, these are all myths.

samuk:


Summary of the thread so far.

1. It was generally agreed by debaters that Benin did have some form of colonial expansion into eastern Yoruba land.

2. Benin presence in Lagos as far back as 1603 was agreed by all, no dispute.

3. Oduduwa origin was heavily disputed with various accounts.

A. Oyo accounts says Oduduwa was from either the sky or mecca and the current Ooni descents from the lineage of shrine keeper. Ref. Johnson.

B. Ife account says Oduduwa was a native of Ife

C. Benin accounts says Oduduwa was a banished Benin prince, Ekaladerhan.

4. It was general agreed that the Yorubas have not always had one history. They were various tribes that used to fight themselves, sometimes with the help of Benin army and guns.

5. The Benin/Ife connection was called into questions especially considering Ife may be younger than Benin.

6. Benin relationship with Nupe/Igala was examined.

7. No evidence was found of Benin/Ife relationship in the first four hundred years of recorded Benin history.

8. No human bones found in Orun Oba Ado site in Ife after excavation.

9. Link to Guinness book of world records showing Benin Wall to be the largest man made structure on planet earth, four times great wall of China, many times the great pyramids of Egypt was presented.

10. Benin civil war was discussed.

11. Evidence provided of Alaafin paying tribute to Benin.

12. Evidence provided of Alaafin asking for army to help suppressed rebels.

13. Owo princes used to be trained at the Oba of Benin palace before they are sent back to rule over Owo.

14. Owo artworks are closely related to Benin artworks

15. In the past, Edo/Akure, Edo nekue, people roused to very prominent positions in Benin including the Iyase of Benin, second position to the Oba of Benin.

15. Benin had different relationships with various Yoruba tribes.

16. Benin have a well documented history since 1400 AD mostly in European archives that can't be fabricated.

17 Thousands of Benin artworks adores world museum acting as great ambassador for black civilisation.

Hahaha Summary of Lies about to be busted in 1-2-3:

(1) No general debater agreed with you to such falsehood after I had demolished the falsehood. See link here for where I demolished your falsehood of Eastern Yoruba "imperial conquest". https://www.nairaland.com/5761595/benin-kingdom-edo-state-remained/22#88358340


(2) Yes, the Binis were present in Lagos just as the Ijaws, the Ijebus, the Owos, the Aja, the Egba, et al. for trade purposes as has been shown in my reference to R. Smith (1969) wherein he cited Josua Ulsheimer (1603).

I have shown also with historical reference that the Aworis are the authochtonous people who have settled in their Lagos homeland since many centuries earlier when they migrated from Ife, as cited also in my reference to R. Smith (1969), p.73.

And I also showed, according to the Lagos account, that Ashipa who is the progenitor of the present Eko dynasty is not a Bini man, but rather is an Awori-Yoruba man of Ife royal descent. see R. Smith (1969), p.74.


(3) Oduduwa's origin was never and will never be disputed at his Yoruba homeland --- Ife. He is universally known at home to be of Ife roots.

That the Binis say he is one and the same person as a certain fictitious "Izoduwa" (a work of fiction whom historians have trashed); or that the Hausas told the medical doctor and reverened Samuel Johnson that he is from Mecca constitutes nothing against his citizenship.


(A) Your allusion to an account of Oduduwa from sky is first of all not Oyos particularly. Neither is such account historical.

Rather, it is similar to the Benin account that the first rulers of Benin dived into Benin City from the sky. Or the Benin account that God Almighty himself gave birth to the first Oba of Benin.

It is a mythological account that shows how some kernel of historical truths have been wrapped up over the centuries with exaggerations, distortions and poetic eloquence and expressions.

Historians know where to draw the line between mythology and history, and the extent to which the former feeds into the latter. Yorubas never claimed that the human Oduduwa did indeed drop from the sky. I can not say if the Binis believe in truth God indeed gave birth to the first Oba of Benin

Regarding the account that Oonis descend from a shrine keeper. Johnson passed no judgement whether such account was accurate or not. He dared not as he has no such scholarly competence. He wasn't a historian.

However, such accounts are not only absurd but also self-contradictory as Oranmiyan himself ruled as Ooni of Ife and from whom other Ooni's till date descend.

Is this just my personal thoughts? No!

Historians in present times, like professor R. C. C. Law, have combed through such accounts (just as other historians have) and have come to see such account as rooted is political propaganda and thus baseless. Unlike Johnson, Professor Law have such competence as a historian.


(B) Yes Oduduwa ruled as king only in Ife where he established a political order that came to be a shinning model to be replicated everywhere else in Yorubaland, even in as far as Ghana.

So, to really know who Oduduwa is, it is only sane and obvious that one should go back to the kingdom he ruled over and inquire. There is no dispute in Ife, however, that he is a son of the soil, born and raised.


(C) Benin account on Oduduwa has long been trashed by historians as a nonsensical, apocryphal, pseuodhistorical, and deliberately unauthentic over-ambitious myth.


(4) Yoruba is one name for a group comprising of diverse subgroups. I am confused why you think their history should be exactly the same. And as regards fighting themselves --- yes we do that even in our small families.

In fact, I suspect that you are unaware that Benin Kingdom (as monolith as you may think it is) was actually racked by civil war.

In their joint work, viz. "Civil War in the Kingdom of Benin, 1689-1721: Continuity or Political Change?", Paula Ben-Amos Girshick and John Thornton writes:

"Towards the end of the seventeenth century, a number of European observers noted that the Edo Kingdom of Benin had been racked for some years by civi war. One of the longest accounts, that of David van Nyendael, reported that as a result of this civil war, Benin City had been sacked and in his day ("1699 -1701" ) was reduced to a 'mere village'. Apparently beginning shortly before 1690, the civil war stretched on well into the eighteenth century."

Paula Ben-Amos Girshick and John Thornton, "Civil War in the Kingdom of Benin, 1689-1721: Continuity or Political Change?", Journal of African History, 42 (2001), pp.353-354.


As regards seeking alliance, I have already noted how Benin Kingdom initiated a peace-pact and sought the alliance of Otun-Ekiti when the latter had dealt Benin Kingdom a major blow leading to life-wastage of many of Benin's military commander.


(5) No contemporary historian of repute as it stands today in the world ever called into question the Benin-Ife relationship except for Benin Nairaland clowns.

The late 1400 records of d'Aveiros shows that Benin Kingdom was loyal to an overlord outside of Benin kingdom known to the Binis as Oghene or Ogane.

Scholars have, however, come to unanimously settle the olden debate of who this Ogane is. They have come to identify this Oghene or Ogane as the Ooni of Ife as I have shown in the work of the historian Adam Knobler.

Moreover, no archaeological dating result has ever dated Benin Kingdom to be earlier than Ife.

I challenge you to provide me any dating result result from Benin Kingdom which is earlier than the result of at least c350BC from Ife as contained in a 1969 report of a preliminary archaeological survey of Ife, Paul Ozanne.

Reference:
Paul Ozanne: "A Preliminary Report of an Archaeological Survey of Ife"; also "A New Archaeological Survey of Ife," Odu, new series, 1, 1969, pp.131-148.


(6) Yes, a kingdom might have relationship with several others. There is nothing in logic which disproves that. But what has been disproven however by historians is that: the Ogane whose d'Aveiros account speaks of is not found in Igala/Nupe or anywhere in the Niger Benue confluence.

Historians have specifically submitted that the Ogane or Oghene whom the Benin kings must report to is none other than the Ooni of Ife.


(7) I have already mentioned that the 1480 documents of d'Averios collected from Benin kingdom talks about an Ogane whom the kings of Benin kingdom consider to be their God Almighty in human flesh. Scholars have now identified this Ogane as none other that the Ooni of Ife. see attached screenshot in my next comment.


(8 ) I have shown that archaeologists make it clear that the absence of human remains is not the disproof for an olden tradition of burial.

What archaeologists note that they look out for in order to disprove an olden burial tradition is the absence of burial pits.

In order words, they appreciate that human remains could be put to other sacred use long before modern times.


And as the result of Frank Willett's excavation of Orun Oba Ado will show, he found large circular pits which he himself called "burial pits".

In fact, he found "eleven" of them. This number matches the number of third-reign Benin Obas' heads buried there (as indicated in earlier historical documentations) with absolute astonishing accuracy, as I have shown on this thread and elsewhere.


(9) No, you never provided any link to Guinness World Records. The link you provided was to some random Facebook account where some guys in a discussion claim they were talking about Guiness World Records.

However, an genuine link to Guiness World Records shows that the largest monument ever constructed is A PYRAMID.

To be more specific it is called: The Quetzalcóatl Pyramid at Choiula de Rivadavia.

See link to Guiness World Recods below:

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/largest-pyramid/


(10) Benin civil war was discussed but not with you.

I showed (citing experts) that Benin Kingdom had serious infighting --- i.e. civil war --- which racked Benin kingdom and caused Benin City to be sacked and reduced to a mere village. Refer once again to my point (4).


(11) I admitted this but clarified that this could only have happened in the early beginnings or infancy years of Oyo --- a time where it also payed tributes to an historically-inconsequential kingdoms such as Owu-Yoruba in the south, and also to the Bariba in the North-west and Nupe in the North-East.

I argued that there was no evidence or traces of such tribute payment from Oyo to anyone as soon as it attained imperial status when it had been forced (by the Owu, Bariba, Nupe) to learn and perfect the art of war.

In contrast, I showed evidence --- citing accounts recorded by Johnson and another account recorded independently by Crowther --- that at its height, The Great Oyo Empire forced tributes from Benin Kingdom. A Benin Kingdom which was evidently weak and decimated by the time.


(12) I have shown in this same comment that kingdoms do form alliances with each other and it's nothing so special.

I specifically showed how Benin Kingdom unilaterally initiated a peace-pact and formed alliance with Otun-Ekiti, when the latter had dealt it a major blow leading to life-wastage of many of Benin's military commander.

I also mentioned to one of your foot soldiers here (davidnazee) of how Benin Kingdom was dealt with in Owo on two different occasions, one of which led to the death of the topmost Benin military commander Iken. There are other examples.


(13) It is I who brought this up. You obviously didn't know that.

And I have shown that they saw each other as brothers (from Ife) in that axis too. You seem to take this point to mean that the prince was kidnapped. No he wasn't.

It was a bilateral agreement between the two kingdoms to allow the prince of Owo stay in the Benin palace and enjoy royal privilege in Benin, perhaps smashing the most beautiful Benin babes that the Benin crown prince himself had no access to.

It happens everywhere all over Yorubaland. The present Alaafin of Oyo once lived as a young lad at the palace of the then Alake of Egbaland. The Benin crown prince doesn't live in Benin too after all.


(14) I am not aware that Benin artworks now have the unique Ife-Yoruba parallel facial striation that is obviously seen on the Owo-Yoruba artworks.

Well, may be Benin learnt something of art not only from Ife but also from Owo.

Anyways, the most reasonable interpretation is that Owo art must have borrowed heavily form both its Ife ancestors and its Benin brothers as well as influencing both too in some ways --- as it lies somewhere in between both kingdoms.


(15) (i and ii) You just corroborated my point that they saw each other as brothers (with same Ife origin) along that exist too. This points appears to weaken the Benin Nairaland arrogation theory of conquest. Because I don't see how a citizen of the conquered kingdom will come to rise to the second in command in the empire of the supposed overlord. Lol.


(16) Yorubas have the earliest documented history either by indigenous historians or by foreign travelers. E.g. Crowther, Lijadu, Johnson (1800s) vs Eghervbea (1900s). Or Portuguese (1400s) vs Ibn Battuta (1300s).


(18) Yes they do for two reasons:

(a) Because those Benin artworks were made relatively late compared to the Ifes which was much much earlier --- A gap of at least 300 years exists between the earliest known of both. I have demonstrated this on Nairaland many, many times.

(b) Because the Benin artworks were not given freely (at the will and volition of the owners) but was rather stolen en masse as a punishments for the events leading to the 1897 expedition.

In contrast, whatever Ife artwork you see outside of Nigeria today is not taken as some punishment. Someone must have given it freely because it's his or sold it out because it's his.

As regards which artwork is superior in quality, let's hear from a prominent art historian, Frank Willett. Commenting on the sculptures from Ita-Yemoo in Ife, Willett writes:

"Here unquestionably were art works of first importance, but how could they be explained? They were so very different from any works of negro art, and so very sophisticated in a European manner that they stood apart from the rest of African sculpture."


I hope you all had a nice time here.

Cheers!

cc: MetaPhysical gomojam nisai macof Babaramota1980 Sewgon79 babtoundey Moneywomen17 googi

Moneywomen17:
where did u read oke-Ora wasn’t in existence then. There are hills in oke-ota yes.
Read this https://www.informationng.com/2015/11/new-ooni-of-ife-presented-with-the-aare-crown-worn-once-a-year.html

He doesn't know what Oke mean oo?? Don't bother yourself. This one na block head oo.

davidnazee:


Myths are defined as a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon...
So Oke Ora story, Mecca, ogisos from the sky, Ife empire, ekhaladeran, these are all myths.

Except that Oduduwa is from Ife.

davidnazee:


Myths are defined as a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon...
So Oke Ora story, Mecca, ogisos from the sky, Ife empire, ekhaladeran, these are all myths.

touché. Ife was never regards as an empire. How can ife be empire without army. Oyo empire was the empire. And if still continue the tradition during kingship coronation about his origin and how he was crowned. So he is from ife

Moneywomen17:
touché. Ife was never regards as an empire. How can ife be empire without army. Oyo empire was the empire. And if still continue the tradition during kingship coronation about his origin and how he was crowned. So he is from ife

Your brother (I guess u are Yoruba) TAO11 said Ife was an empire. I have been trying to educate him on that wrong assumption.

davidnazee:


[s]Well one thing I agree on is that myths shouldn’t be used to argue history because myths always turn out to be false.. unlike TAO11 that backs up his/her argument using myths as evidence.
History will say one thing and TAO11 will say another.

I don’t argue about Benin myths or use it as evidence in my argument because I don’t believe in myths, I prefer reality on ground to make my assessment.

If u say Oduduwa is from Oke Ora, I have read article against that idea and it says Oke Ora wasn’t even in existence during the time of Oduduwa. and the Oke Ora story even says oduduwa descended on a chain from Oke Ora down to Ife. Is Oke Ora in the sky or mountainous area?[/s]

You're a dummy.

Oke is a hill top. Which useless article says a hill wasn't around at some point in time??

This guy is the sickest Bini I have encountered.

TAO11:


He doesn't know what Oke mean oo?? Don't bother yourself. This one na block head oo.

Will u call your brother block head too for saying Ife was not an empire?
He actually meant Ife was the village where the juju priest lived.

davidnazee:


[s]Your brother (I guess u are Yoruba) TAO11 said Ife was an empire. I have been trying to educate him on that wrong assumption.[/s]

If he did not know in the past, and will now know, then you didn't make any point here.

davidnazee:


Will u call your brother block head too for saying Ife was not an empire?
He actually meant Ife was the village where the juju priest lived.

I have replied your dumbness below. It is you who is actually dvmb for rejoicing that the young man didn't know everything.

davidnazee:


[s]Well one thing I agree on is that myths shouldn’t be used to argue history because myths always turn out to be false.. unlike TAO11 that backs up his/her argument using myths as evidence.
History will say one thing and TAO11 will say another.

I don’t argue about Benin myths or use it as evidence in my argument because I don’t believe in myths, I prefer reality on ground to make my assessment.

If u say Oduduwa is from Oke Ora, I have read article against that idea and it says Oke Ora wasn’t even in existence during the time of Oduduwa. and the Oke Ora story even says oduduwa descended on a chain from Oke Ora down to Ife. Is Oke Ora in the sky or mountainous area?[/s]

Thick skull. point out where I used myth as the basis for my argument.

Anyways, you already admitted to not having anything to offer.

davidnazee:


[s]Awww it hurts that u can’t change the unending truth about ur dull Yoruba history.
After all research about Africa has been done, the general conclusion arrived at by all scholars and historians was;

Benin was a great Kingdom and empire.. the longest surviving kingdom in present Nigeria area.
Oyo Kingdom was short lived.
Oduduwa migrated from Mecca
Ife was never an empire and it’s history is dark, more light they tried to shine on it the more dark it gets.
Nothing was known about Ife till the 19th century Twice Ife have been abandoned in ruins, in 18th and 19th centuries.
All of Eastern Yoruba and Lagos was under the rule of Benin Kingdom.

This is the only information anyone will forever find in archives of history not your made up tales.

Yorubas are presently doing well these days but in history they were useless.[/s]

I have debunked your brothers lies.

I would have asked you to defend him, but you already admitted to me that you have nothing to offer.

AreaFada2:

Cite no scholars? So you think this argument began yesterday here?
[s]Why bother engaging people who believe they have monopoly over knowledge and history?
Let nobody stop you. Keep spewing Yoruba agenda to massage your people's ego.
I just want to state no mushroom scholars you will impresss Edo people.

Edo saw Yoruba agenda through the 1940s to 60s and left you on your own. It's you guys who keep dragging Benin into your tribal contraption and creating threads up and down.Good luck to you.[/s]

If it is Yoruba agenda to present history as what it is without a jot of my own words, then I love such agenda.

TAO11:


You're a dummy.

Oke is a hill top. Which useless article says a hill wasn't around at some point in time??

This guy is the sickest Bini I have encountered.

You are indeed a fool. U argue like a child. Who ever said anything about a hill being around or not around. Does Oke Ora mean hill or it’s nam of a place?
Please allow a more mature moneywoman talk on behalf of oduduwa.. ur argument sinks Ife further down into darkness.

TAO11:


If it is Yoruba agenda to present history as what it is without a jot of my own words, then I love such agenda.

Which history does Yoruba have to present? U only have the analysis of ur myths given to u be the whiteman. That’s what u are excited about.

davidnazee:


[s]You are indeed a fool. U argue like a child. Who ever said anything about a hill being around or not around. Does Oke Ora mean hill or it’s nam of a place?
Please allow a more mature moneywoman talk on behalf of oduduwa.. ur argument sinks Ife further down into darkness.[/s]

Now you're asking because you're an ignoramus.

Yet you still put small arrogance with your ignorance.

You are truly a thick skull.

TAO11:


Thick skull. point out where I used myth as the basis for my argument.

Anyways, you already admitted to not having anything to offer.

Every reference u made was a myth. U have not mentioned one real practical history in ur argument because it doesn’t favour ur argument.

davidnazee:


Which history does Yoruba have to present? U only have the analysis of ur myths given to u be the whiteman. That’s what u are excited about.

No now, it's only you people that tells us things like:

How the Ogisos dived from the sky into Benin City.

How God went into the labour room and gave birth to the first Oba of Benin.

How the Ogisos fought with human and spirits.

How you Edos chased ivibiniwinreko from the present Benin site when you all were coming from Ife.

TAO11:


Now you're asking because you're an ignoramus.

Yet you still put small arrogance with your ignorance.

You are truly a thick skull.

Fool I’m not asking u. Moneywoman already answered my question. Ur foolishness couldn’t let u understand my conversation with moneywoman before u jumped in..
I know u are suffering from congeal.

davidnazee:


[s]Fool I’m not asking u. Moneywoman already answered my question. Ur foolishness couldn’t let u understand my conversation with moneywoman before u jumped in..
I know u are suffering from congeal.[/s]

Thick skull, I was only asking you to know what Oke means before you disgrace your self saying an Oke (hill) was not around during Oduduwa's days.

samuk:


Summary of the thread so far.

1. It was generally agreed by debaters that Benin did have some form of colonial expansion into eastern Yoruba land.

2. Benin presence in Lagos as far back as 1603 was agreed by all, no dispute.

3. Oduduwa origin was heavily disputed with various accounts.

A. Oyo accounts says Oduduwa was from either the sky or mecca and the current Ooni descents from the lineage of shrine keeper. Ref. Johnson.

B. Ife account says Oduduwa was a native of Ife

C. Benin accounts says Oduduwa was a banished Benin prince, Ekaladerhan.

4. It was generally agreed that the Yorubas have not always had one history. They were various tribes that used to fight themselves, sometimes with the help of Benin army and guns.

5. The Benin/Ife connection was called into questions especially considering Ife may be younger than Benin.

6. Benin relationship with Nupe/Igala was examined.

7. No evidence was found of Benin/Ife relationship in the first four hundred years of recorded Benin history.

8. No human bones found in Orun Oba Ado site in Ife after excavation.

9. Link to Guinness book of world records showing Benin Wall to be the largest man made structure on planet earth, four times great wall of China, many times the great pyramids of Egypt was presented.

10. Benin civil war was discussed.

11. Evidence provided of Alaafin paying tribute to Benin.

12. Evidence provided of Alaafin asking Oba of Benin for army to help suppressed rebels.

13. Owo princes used to be trained at the Oba of Benin palace before they were sent back to rule over Owo.

14. Owo artworks are closely related to Benin artworks

15. In the past, Edo/Akure, Edo nekue, people roused to very prominent positions in Benin including the Iyase of Benin, second position to the Oba of Benin.

15. Benin had different relationships with various Yoruba tribes.

16. Benin have a well documented history since 1400 AD mostly in European archives that can't be fabricated.

17 Thousands of Benin artworks adores world museums acting as great ambassadors of black civilisation.

18. Current Oba of Lagos revealed during the anniversary of the coronation of the current Oba of Benin that Benin chiefs were sent to Lagos to train/help him with the traditions before ascending the Lagos throne.

Regarding your point (18) which you just chipped in now, unceremoniousl:

Attach a video of where he said this or your claim remains "audio".

Moreover, show how such a statement (if any)contradicts my argument (which I have shown with evidence of historical work --- R. Smith) that Ashipa who is the progenitor of the current Eko dynasty is not a Bini but a Yoruba.

I already alluded to Benin presence and intercultural politics tho. So, you didn't say anything I am unaware of, even though you could be lying about this specific one (as always) as you've provided zero evidence for it

TAO11:


No now, it's only you people that tells us things like:

How the Ogisos dived from the sky into Benin City.

How God went into the labour room and gave birth to the first Oba of Benin.

How the Ogisos fought with human and spirits.

How you Edos chased ivibiniwinreko from the present Benin site when you all were coming from Ife.

See yourself always opening Yoruba yansh.
Yes just like you Yorubas we have myths that says ogiso descended from the sky.. but unlike u we don’t say Ogiso is the father of Edo race, or our ogiso was a coup plotter or call a small village without an army (Ife) an empire.
And unlike u, our history is very rich with details unlike urs that is shrouded in darkness and obscurity.