Blabbermouth:

This is one of those many questions that believers try not to seek an answer to.
This is one of those many questions that will never be raised by anybody in any bible study. Do you know why you can't? Many will begin to see you as a Devil and a faith shaker.
I have the purest intent with the question i asked.

Maximus69:


Exactly!

DappaD:

So the question you're asking isn't out of the ordinary because an article explaining this was even considered in one of our meetings—I think some years back or so

Blabbermouth:
Since time immemorial, man had always and will always continue to attribute what he cannot do and isn't capable of as part of God's sovereign ability.
Even if there are many many denominations in Christianity, I believe every of them agree that God is Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. We don't have issues with the last 2 Omni - (for now) , so we will just concentrate on the first one. While this omniscient attribute is sweet to the ears, I want to know if God himself actually claimed/said that he "knows the future".
The floor is open, I don't want substance less opinions and replies invented from what you feel is true or right, instead;
GIVE YOUR ANSWER
DROP SCRIPTURES THAT SUPPORT YOUR ANSWER
EXPLAIN HOW THE SCRIPTURE PROVES THAT GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE.
Cc: Kobojunkie, Maximus69, Jesusjnr2020, MuttleyLaff, Shadeyinka, solite3, budaatum, sonmvayina, Hiswordxray

Blabbermouth:

Discussion so far: You claimed God does not know If I will repent or not.
Here is my last question;
The scripture says "their names have been written in the book of life before the foundation of the world"... Whose names are those?

jesusjnr2020:
I find it very strange that I had to travel through many comments here, before I could get to one which stated the most decisive factor with respect to your question @haddeylium which is freewill.

Freewill is what everything hinges on. The outcome of man's freewill is what determines and predestinates the future. And the freewill was deliberately given to man by God because He didn't want a fixed outcome but a multiple one and He wanted the outcome to be determined by man.

So God knew it could pan out either way, and He's prepared for whatever comes out of man's freewill.

Therefore the answer to your question is that God is omniscient and He knows the future and everything else as far as the world was concerned, but He didn't fix it, man did! By the choices he made.

It's been quite a while bro. I do hope you're doing great.

Thanks and God bless.

MuttleyLaff:
God foreknows every human acts and every human acts is predestined because God is privy and/or aware of all human acts before the action actually or physically happens

Haddeylium;----

1.Following your logics, if God has already predestined humans and there's nothing we could do to change it.
So, what's the point of praying?
Why read for exams?; why not have it in my mind that 'what will be will be'?
Why take your children to the doctor when they are sick?...why not keep the same energy that if they are not destined to die now, they'll not..
Why take measures to ensure safety?(using seatbelt and all)
Didn't God commanded the Israelites to be conscious of their safety?...why didn't God's word leave it in the hands of fate?

Freewill and foreknowledge are not handicaps, they dont in any shame or form put God at an disadvantage. The word of God in Isaiah 55:11 emphatically says: "That's how it is with my words. They don't return to me without doing everything I send them to do."

[/font] Haddeylium--2.What you don't know is that God’s control of his powers does not limit him or makes him imperfect. Rather it magnifies his greatness and his respect for the freewill he gave us
And yet again, God's foreknowing the even of intelligent beings he created is not without a prior basis or acts

What's your belief in freewill?
Cos' I know you cannot believe the teaching of predestination and freewill

It was me who advanced Isaiah 46:10, in where God, emphatically states: "Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish"

[font=Lucida Sans Unicode]
3.Haddeylium-I read someone answers to this ...
I don't know how to quote it here
Isaiah 46:10-yes,God foretell and foreordains certain matters in connection with its accomplishment and purpose, and has the power to assure that these will be fulfilled.)

*But, does God ability to foreknow and foredain means that he does this regarding all the actions of his creatures?*

God word says
Rev 22:17-And the spirit and the bride keep on saying, “Come!” and let anyone hearing say, “Come!” and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone who [b][/b]wishes take life’s water free.
(Wishes, Do you see the choice is not foredained,
It's left to individual with his own will.)

Zeph 2:3-
Would God encourage all to do what is right in hope for reward, knowing that some will not succeed because they re destined not to?
Loll


Now this is the thing, no where in scripture will you find God say He does not know. When God exercises anthropomorphism, as in meaning the times, He appears(ed) to us or manifests Himself to us in human form or even attributes to Himself human characteristics, it doesnt mean God is deficient, insufficient and/or lacking in any particular department/faculty

4.Haddeylium--Maybe you skipped some scriptures
God said he's a friend to Abraham, remember?
So when he went to the point of sacrificing his only son for him.
God said
*For now I do know that you are God-fearing* in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”​—Ge 18:19; 22:11, 12; compare Ne 9:7, 8;
Jehovah's said, he knows now!
Would you say he already know prior that time in contrasts to the scripture?

haddeylium, here are a few easy, simple, direct and straightforward questions I would really like you respond to and they are:
1/ Did God not foreknow that A&E will eat of the TKGE well in advance before it happened?
2/ Why were names written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain, if not because of foreknowledge?

Haddeylium--
5.God wants Adam and Eve to be fruitful and subdue it and commanded them not to eat from knowledge of Good and bad(Gen 1:28; 2:26,17)

Would you encourage your children to embark on a journey knowing it was doomed to failure?
You won't right?... would you warn them of the harm to avoid it in exercising their freewill right?
If you can't , why then attribute such to God?
Even Jesus said in Matthew 77:11
If you, although being wicked , know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?”

The implications of God's foredaining of humans sins means that he's responsible for all the wickedness and immorality in this world but God's word teaches otherwise
It's unscriptural

I don't quite understand your second question : and can you quote the Bible verse here

I'd review sharpish, my theology, if I were you, to find out and understand, what objective(s) is God aiming to achieve from creating human beings, the likes of Blabbermouth, haddeylium, DappaD, Janosky, Maximus69, kkins25, Bodydialect57, FOLYKAZE et al and what situational problem is He, forever, once and for all, aiming to solve, so that, maybe after then, the penny will drop and everything will fall in place with a better and clearer perspective of this whole matter

Blabbermouth:

This is another twist entirely. You are painting God as a sage with a very rare telepathic and forecasting ability to know what will happen given a few conditions or fact. ... Don't you think this road will be rough to tread?
Also, please do check the difference between foretelling and forthtelling. Some of your examples are from forthtelling and not foretelling.

MuttleyLaff:


I am awaiting your response to the the two questions please

MuttleyLaff:
Now this is the thing, no where in scripture will you find God say He does not know. When God exercises anthropomorphism, as in meaning the times, He appears(ed) to us or manifests Himself to us in human form or even attributes to Himself human characteristics, it doesnt mean God is deficient, insufficient and/or lacking in any particular department/faculty

haddeylium, here are a few easy, simple, direct and straightforward questions I would really like you respond to and they are:
1/ Did God not foreknow that A&E will eat of the TKGE well in advance before it happened?

haddeylium:
4.Haddeylium--Maybe you skipped some scripturesMaybe you skipped some scriptures
God said he's a friend to Abraham, remember?
So when he went to the point of sacrificing his only son for him.
God said
*For now I do know that you are God-fearing* in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”​—Ge 18:19; 22:11, 12; compare Ne 9:7, 8;
Jehovah's said, he knows now!
Would you say he already know prior that time in contrasts to the scripture?

Haddeylium--
5.God wants Adam and Eve to be fruitful and subdue it and commanded them not to eat from knowledge of Good and bad(Gen 1:28; 2:26,17)

Would you encourage your children to embark on a journey knowing it was doomed to failure?
You won't right?... would you warn them of the harm to avoid it in exercising their freewill right?
If you can't , why then attribute such to God?

Even Jesus said in Matthew 77:11
If you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?”

The implications of God's foredaining of humans sins means that he's responsible for all the wickedness and immorality in this world but God's word teaches otherwise
It's unscriptural

MuttleyLaff:
Now this is the thing, no where in scripture will you find God say He does not know. When God exercises anthropomorphism, as in meaning the times, He appears(ed) to us or manifests Himself to us in human form or even attributes to Himself human characteristics, it doesnt mean God is deficient, insufficient and/or lacking in any particular department/faculty

haddeylium, here are a few easy, simple, direct and straightforward questions I would really like you respond to and they are:
2/ Why were names written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain, if not because of foreknowledge?

haddeylium:
I don't quite understand your second question:
and can you quote the Bible verse here

Blabbermouth:
I am the script-writer?

Blabbermouth:
Cool! That means I am Foreordaining my own future.

Blabbermouth:
Unfortunately, when I realized that God already knows what I will write even before I was born, we are back to square one again as WHAT I WILL WRITE is totally dependent on WHAT GOD HAS FOREKNOWN ... If God already foreknew that I will choose hell, then this poor boy is helpless because he cannot be right while God is wrong. You see, the puzzle is yet to be solved.

MuttleyLaff:
It will be a violation of creativity rights and/or abuse of artistic rights to, because of whether one is bad or good, such should be denied the right of expression and freedom of freely without inhibitions to express themselves.

Remember the saying, that a nation gets the leaders and/or government it's deserves, meaning that wherever and however you end, you defo will deserve to be there, so just live life to the best of your ability, understanding and nature. If it's good you excel in, do. If it's evil, you excel in, do. We all will reap what we sow.

Blabbermouth:
Now I understand you completely (97%) and i know where you stand on the matter. Also, I noticed your unwillingness to be blunt and straight with your answer, that's understood (everyone that has penned answers down also did the same). Still, I've caught the essence of your replies, thanks.

MuttleyLaff:


"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ,
that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad."
- 2 Corinthians 5:10

"For according to a man’s deeds He repays him; according to a man’s ways He brings consequences.
(i.e. He repays people according to their deeds. He treats people as they deserve)"
- Job 34:11

haddeylium, I did not skip any scripture because I am aware when and where anthropomorphism is in put in to play in a narrative.

I am 1000% sure you wouldn't say that God, literally and/or physically has Arms to save human beings with. Now, if really that there are any implications of God's foredaining of humans sins, to mean that He's responsible for all the wickedness and immorality in this world, then it would be unscriptural, unfair and unjust for any case to come up, where human beings will give account of every thought, deed, action and/or inaction involving them, do you agree, hmm?

Do you think that 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Job 34:11 above are just decorative bible verses ni, hmm?

Fyi haddeylium, Adam and Eve were babies and they certainly weren't children. If God did not know they are capable of doing the right thing, do the right thing at the right time and do the right at the right thing while remaining on His right side, then He wouldn't have left the TKGE centrally and unavoidably placed in the garden of Eden, so all these your proof-texting with "Gen 1:28; 2:26,17" sic and "Matthew 77:11" sic

There is nothing like 17 in your "Gen 1:28; 2:26,17" sic, nor is there a 77 for your "Matthew 77:11" sic, sef

Another fyi haddeylium Adam and Eve were made fully grown and/or developed to be responsible for their actions. They are completely responsible for what they did or not do

Their minds were endowed with accelerated knowledge

Unlike you haddeylium, who I suspect wouldn't accept and agree that, Adam and Eve were not children, Adam, actually, was a grown and strapping specimen of red blooded man. As a matter of fact, He and Eve were not made children nor childish. This means that, Adam and Eve did not gradually change physically or progress to maturity as a child/children would do

Man's knowledge can go beyond his experience. The acquistion of knowledge doesnt all have to be experiential (i.e. first-hand) People are known to learn from other people's experience. Besides God taught Adam well and well enough. Adam had the best Teacher, at his disposal to throw questions at, in a quest, to gain more knowledge.

Evidently, Adam was subjected to an accelerated learning process or program, which purposeful was to allow him to think and make reflective judgment(s) concerning what to believe or what not to believe, and so it was that Adam was imparted with enough information by God, to make informed/educated decisions, like whether or not, to choose to eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good or Evil (i.e. TKGE)

Inspite of Adam and Eve's thinking abilities and/or reasoning capabilities, Eve was deceived but as for Adam, he wasnt deceived, he, Adam, deliberately decided to mis-behave

Did God know A&E will derail? Of course yes, capital YES, God knew. There is no secret with God. Eating is part of the plan to achieve a purpose and objective

haddeylium:
I read and see how you're contradicting yourself
Loll

haddeylium:
Your sincere answers to the following questions will free you of this illusion
Do you believe in freewill?
If Adam and Eve are predestined to go against God...why then were they punished?
Were they not following the script?
Who then should be blamed for all the suffering, injustice in this word?

MuttleyLaff:
Smh. KMT. The last lol is mine

Could you please simply answer the two question I put quite an effort to make it easier for you to reply.

You know that if I should respond to your three questions above there, you havent the skill to correctly reply back to them. Now the answers to all the three questions, you asked about freewill, predestination, writing script and who to blame, have all, at one post or the other, have I already addressed or tackled. Please go over all my posts on this thread, as it will make sense to get abreast of what I've typed of freewill, predestination, writing script and who to blame,

haddeylium:
[s]Alright, you believe Adam's sin was God's will, God's plan right?
So, I'm saying...
If I were to do something you wanted me to do...would you condemn for it?
If Adam's sin was God's will, why was Adam driven out of the garden as sinner?

Jah is a God of love(1 John 4:8 )- would it be loving to condemn someone for what you planned them to do?

It's not God will for Adam to sin, he warned them against it(2:17)

Adam like us has freewill that God gave him to choose what he would do.
Adam chooses to rebel against God.

If you follow this aptly and open-mindedly giving sincere answers from a neutral view. It will give you answers to the truth you seek.

Shalom[/s]

MuttleyLaff:
Could you please simply answer the two questions I put quite an effort to make it easier for you to reply to, hmm?.

All the first question needed, was a binary answer of, Yes or No and not all that waffling you presented.

The second question, is asked, so to check the veracity and test the validity of your claim, that God is selective in what's to know

haddeylium:
[s]I can see you've made up your mind already
You've ever considered a chances of being wrong?
What if what you have is not the complete truth?
You ever considered seeking God's accurate knowledge aligning with what 'God of love' that want good things for his creatures teaches?..

What's the yes or no questions you asked?
I think I answered everything....
It's left to you to believe what the Bible teach...[/s]

haddeylium:



I read and see how you're contradicting yourself
Loll

Your sincere answers to the following questions will free you of this illusion

Do you believe in freewill?
If Adam and Eve are predestined to go against God...why then were they punished?
Were they not following the script?
Who then should be blamed for all the suffering, injustice in this word?

ediama:
YES.

The Book of Revelation says it all.

Wonder why many dread it!

Blabbermouth:
Since time immemorial, man had always and will always continue to attribute what he cannot do and isn't capable of as part of God's sovereign ability.
Even if there are many many denominations in Christianity, I believe every of them agree that God is Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. We don't have issues with the last 2 Omni - (for now) , so we will just concentrate on the first one. While this omniscient attribute is sweet to the ears, I want to know if God himself actually claimed/said that he "knows the future".
The floor is open, I don't want substance less opinions and replies invented from what you feel is true or right, instead;
GIVE YOUR ANSWER
DROP SCRIPTURES THAT SUPPORT YOUR ANSWER
EXPLAIN HOW THE SCRIPTURE PROVES THAT GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE.
Cc: Kobojunkie, Maximus69, Jesusjnr2020, MuttleyLaff, Shadeyinka, solite3, budaatum, sonmvayina, Hiswordxray

MuttleyLaff:
As time is a snitch, time definitely, will tell, lol. Bad habits, though, are hard to break from, also a leopard doesnt change its black spots, lol.

Hell will have to first freeze up for any chance of a jesusjnr 3-day resurrection, lol. Thinks that's how "jnr" operates and/or works, lol. Of course why and/or how does this cat have more than nine lives, it's because of the various incognito monikers now.

budaatum is feeling guilty jesusjnr rested on her sword because its budaatum who gave jesusjnr a way out, the chance to climb and get out of the deep big hole she dug and jumped herself into. Courtesy the dare, jesusjnr, now has the chance to re-brand and to like a phoenix, rise out of the ashes she cowardly died in.

The doing of jesusjnr anyway, was something predictable. In the end it happened and it's right. She had a good run, had the time of her life, but at the end of the day, I'll always say about her, that good riddance to bad rubbish. The forum is a better place and safer without jesusjnr

[img]https://s5/images/TrappedByMuttleyLaffHahaha.gif[/img]
The unrepentant and shameless incessant troll got trapped, caught in a tight corner, then turned into a deer in the headlights of budaatum's car and thereafter helplessly got herself checkmated by budaatum's black Queen, and so she cowardly had no choice than to lean forward and firmly rest on her sharp pointed out sword, lol, bwahahaha. A shortest fool's mate that seemed and looked like a longest because we all had to wait until the 31st to see blood.

MuttleyLaff:
Smh. so you want to tell me that you dont know what difference "absolute" means when I used that as my starting off point, hmm?

Smh. Before you were conceived and even born from your mother womb, God had already before you being on the board, had experienced every move on the board until the end that you've made. He has seen all your blunders, your silly moves, your suicidal move, your check mate yourself moves, but still allows you to comes into existence because creativity should never be aborted, killed off, truncated, stifled et cetera. You are part of the Godhead's creative energy, and no matter where you are going to end up, you have creative rights to exist so to express yourself, equipped with freewill. I won't go further on than here, bar you lead me to shed more light

jesusjnr2020:
I find it very strange that I had to travel through many comments here, before I could get to one which stated the most decisive factor with respect to your question @haddeylium which is freewill.

Freewill is what everything hinges on. The outcome of man's freewill is what determines and predestinates the future. And the freewill was deliberately given to man by God because He didn't want a fixed outcome but a multiple one and He wanted the outcome to be determined by man.

So God knew it could pan out either way, and He's prepared for whatever comes out of man's freewill.

Therefore the answer to your question is that God is omniscient and He knows the future and everything else as far as the world was concerned, but He didn't fix it, man did! By the choices he made.

It's been quite a while bro. I do hope you're doing great.

Thanks and God bless.

jesusjnr2020:
@ bolded exactly reason I missed his stating of freewill and saw yours first. Yet he wondered why, but it seems he later saw that the freewill he stated was opposed to everything else he was saying, hence his modifying his comment.

jesusjnr2020:
Predestination and freewill cannot operate at the same time in the same instance. It's either this or that.

jesusjnr2020:
God is not willing that any man perishes but that all come to repentance. So it cannot be said that God predestinated some to perish when it wasn't His Will.

MuttleyLaff:
God foreknows every human acts and every human acts is predestined because God is privy and/or aware of all human acts before the action actually or physically happens

Freewill and foreknowledge are not handicaps, they dont in any shame or form put God at an disadvantage. The word of God in Isaiah 55:11 emphatically says: "That's how it is with my words. They don't return to me without doing everything I send them to do."

It was me who advanced Isaiah 46:10, in where God, emphatically states: "Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish"

Now this is the thing, no where in scripture will you find God say He does not know. When God exercises anthropomorphism, as in meaning the times, He appears(ed) to us or manifests Himself to us in human form or even attributes to Himself human characteristics, it doesn't mean God is deficient, insufficient and/or lacking in any particular department/faculty

haddeylium, here are a few easy, simple, direct and straightforward questions I would really like you respond to and they are:
1/ Did God not foreknow that A&E will eat of the TKGE well in advance before it happened?

2/ Why were names written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain, if not because of foreknowledge?

I'd review sharpish, my theology, if I were you, to find out and understand, what objective(s) is God aiming to achieve from creating human beings, the likes of Blabbermouth, haddeylium, DappaD, Janosky, Maximus69, kkins25, Bodydialect57, FOLYKAZE et al and what situational problem is He, forever, once and for all, aiming to solve, so that, maybe after then, the penny will drop and everything will fall in place with a better and clearer perspective of this whole matter

kkins25:
in order words, you mean to "fore know every human act" is the computation of the the multitude of choices or the sum probability of an event occurring, that is the infinite plethora of causes and effects of which only one outcome is possible. common men, pick a dice(with six sides, duh!) you know there is a 1/6 chances of any outcome. To open the game you have to play a six, you see- when God rolled the dice with Adam and eve, he didn't expect it to hit less than 6. when the disgracing and shameful little number one popped up, God ran MAD. He knew it was possible, but didn't think that he'd fail -being the Genius He is.

kkins25:
When he sent out his word to Adam saying, ".. of the fruit of knowledge of Good and Evil, thou shall not eat of.." i do not think His "words" did everything He sent them to.

kkins25:
of course. I can do the same with a horse and a donkey when i want them to cross breed. Or with a cat and a dog when i want them to bare teeth. I necessarily not be the utmost of powers to do this.

kkins25:
like as if it was God who wrote the scripture. Has jesusjnr2020 hacked your account and is typing as you ??

kkins25:
Please go back to my dice analogy. it was a possible outcome. should in-case you've forgotten the formula, it is; number of required outcomes/ total number of possible outcome. Hence 1/2 for Adam and 1/2 for Eve.

kkins25:
if foreknowledge were the only criteria then truly we are saved by grace and nothing more. works are rendered useless.

kkins25:
what then is the essence of giving to the poor, visiting the widow, and praying for healing for the sick?
_{"Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."-James 1:27}

kkins25:
Are you saying God created me to fight against the Christendom and Islamic world? Are you saying, Saddam Hussein was fulfilling his predestined life when he maneuvered the plane into the world trade center at 9/11?

kkins25:
We have all been born to experience this life with the gift of Free will bestowed upon us by the God of Biology whom i adore amongst others. Before i Became Kkins25 i was energy with no brain and mind to experience life, i was but a minuscule portion of the Unified theory of Everything(whatever it may be), existing in parts shared equally between my biological parents. However, when my fathers penis robbed- vigorously, the wet tissues of my mothers vagina, he gave up- unwillingly, the portion of me residing in him. i raced against my brothers, lo and behold, veni vidi vici- thus, I AM.
My purpose in life is one in which God has assigned for me. Don't rejoice when i say God, for God is a many things sir, the God i speak of is the one called Leo who's mane portrays the magnificent image of the sun. why don't you give this a try and tell me what you think

shadeyinka:

If God can foreknow ( past, present and future) how is this different omniscience?
If God created time, is He still subject to it?
Foreknowledge of beings with freewill cannot be less than absolute knowledge. What do you think?

jesusjnr2020:

Freewill is what everything hinges on. The outcome of man's freewill is what determines and predestinates the future. And the freewill was deliberately given to man by God because He didn't want a fixed outcome but a multiple one and He wanted the outcome to be determined by man.

So God knew it could pan out either way, and He's prepared for whatever comes out of man's freewill.

Therefore the answer to your question is that God is omniscient and He knows the future and everything else as far as the world was concerned, but He didn't fix it, man did! By the choices he made.

It's been quite a while bro. I do hope you're doing great.

Thanks and God bless.

MuttleyLaff:
Yes, you are the architect. You are the decider. You build your character. You develop your character. You reveal what you're made up of, you show the world what you are capable of et cetera

Don't bother yourself about God's foreknowledge, but rather bother yourself, on how you increasingly and from day to day, can become more and more, in the likeness and image of God[/size]

---

---

---

Blabbermouth:
From this, I believe you are saying that the future is like a dice (multiple possible outcomes) and man's freewill is what determines the result. You said "God knew it could pan out either way and he's prepared for whatever comes....." , that would mean God knows every possible outcome but he doesn't know the final outcome - If this is not what you mean then there is no room for freewill whatever.

Blabbermouth:
In this section, I believe you are claiming now that God knows the exact outcome and not just the multiple possible outcomes- this is what being omniscient ( and knowing the future) means - If so, then again there is no room for freewill

Blabbermouth:
Everyone (except MuttleyLaff though) is trying to stitch God's omniscience along with man's freewill, if that omniscience involves the future, then freewill is just a fantasy.
It's been a while... I've been good.

haddeylium:


Please, go through it again and slowly this time sir.
And how do you define forthtell and foretell?

Blabbermouth:
I went through it again... Before I make my final deductions, do you....
1. Believe in Freewill?

Blabbermouth:
2. Believe that man ordains his own future

Blabbermouth:
3. Can God know what a man will choose (say, next year) before he (the man) ordains it