MuttleyLaff:
Why are you saying God doesnt know the final answer when He already said He knows the future, that He knows the end of a matter from the before the beginning of it, hmm?

Blabbermouth:

Forthtell - to CAUSE the future
Foretell- to KNOW (by divine insight) what will happen in the future.
I've gone through your post again... Before I deduce, please tell me
1. What's freewill to you?
2. Who ordains the man's future God or Man?
3. If your answer to qst.2 is "Man", then can God know what a man will ordain before he ordains it?
4. If your answer to qst.3 is Yes, Do explain how freewill is INDEPENDENT of foreknowledge.

Blabbermouth:

Now, you are claiming (along with supporting scriptures) that God knows the future absolutely. Knowing the future is not really the big issue, the inevitable question is if God knows the future , who wrote/ordained the future ?

Blabbermouth:

2. Do you believe in the concept of freewill?

The scripture says the names of the chosen ones have been written before the foundation of the world... Doesn't that mean that the whole world is just a stage?

Blabbermouth:
Actually, i'm cool with your answer to the question. However, it's evident that everyone has different stance concerning the matter.
JW believe in God using selective foreknowledge

Blabbermouth:
YOU believe in God using Absolute Foreknowledge

Blabbermouth:
JesusJnr and Haddeylium believe in God using Man's freewill (independent variable) to construct His foreknowledge of the future (which is a dependent variable)...
My questions to JJ was to make sure I understand him completely.

Blabbermouth:
If I'm to settle with your stance, however we try to shadowbox and sugarcoat things, we will have to remove free will completely.

Blabbermouth:
What say ye, sir MuttleyLaff?

Blabbermouth:
Perhaps I might not even have a complete grasp of your kind of freewill.

shadeyinka:

You still seem not to understand that there is a difference between foreknowledge and predestination.

Foreknowledge is the ability to see all your choices and it's consequence from the past. It's like the ability to fast-forward a movie and then watching it from the beginning.

Predestination is the ability to decide the choices and resulting conclusions of the choices from the past. It's like the playwright who decides what the characters would be and what will befall them.

The Future is Foreknown by God and Only certain aspects of the universe are Foreordained or Predestined by God.

Why do you think the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world?
Rev 13:8:
"And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world."


If God Foreordained everything, then freewill CANNOT exist.

Yes, I believe in freewill!

The world is not a stage. The Foreknowledge of God is at work.

Do you think it is fair if God sends a foetus to hell because God said that He knows (Foreknowledge) that the foetus will grow up to be a murderer and a serial rapist?
Even if Gods Foreknowledge was perfectly correct, there is no justice in punishing a man for a crime he hasn't commited.

The chosen ones do not get chosen at random. They get chosen by the reason of what choices they made in their lifetime. God simply had a privilege of knowing this before He made the world.

Rom 8:29-30:
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that the Son {Lit. that he} might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Just like the wicked cannot be justly punished until he commits the crime so also, the righteous cannot receive a reward for right choices untill he makes them

Let me ask you some thought provoking question. (Of course, you don't need to answer the questions for they are subject to debate amongst the scientific community)
Is there a scientific speculation for the existence of a parallel universe?
Is time rigidly scientifically linear or a loop?
Can time machine/travel exist?

MuttleyLaff:
I was going to answer them, but your question #4, is confusing and incomprehensible

Maximus69:


No literal name was written otherwise that would have meant partiality!

It simply means the good plans of God to make the earth a Paradise stands and remain unshakable, names of all obedient people is in essence WRITTEN already because that's the criteria for getting there!

Blabbermouth:
MuttleyLaff: God knows what I will do in the next 10 years...
For example...
According to God's foreknowledge, "in the next 10 years I bought a buggati veyron for my daughter"... Can I with the power of freewill decide not to buy a Bugatti veyron and buy her a mansion instead?

Blabbermouth:

I find it hard that despite being very obvious, people hate to admit that God's FOREKNOWLEDGE that A certain man will go to Hell cannot be separated from His PREDESTINATION...
See this..
God peeped into Bryan's future and he saw that Bryan will go to hell, what/who is the agent responsible for Bryan ending up in hell? Is it Bryan or is it God?
Your answer will help me to show you that it is impossible to disconnect God's foreknowledge from predestination.


Who is responsible for the "going to hell"? ... The 92% unconscious foetus or God? If you believe it's the foetus, do well to explain to me how an almost unconscious foetus chose hell for itself.

Comments reserved here.


My answer:
1. Hmmmm
2. Time is not linear neither is it a loop, the linearity and loops plausibility is only applicable in theory and papers. In reality, time is just a point.
3. Never! You can't go back to the past (it's lost already) and you can't go to the future (contrary to popular belief, "future" doesn't exist). Do you know why? Time, in reality is just a point, it's called "THE PRESENT/ NOW".

God peeped into Bryan's future and he saw that Bryan will go to hell, what/who is the agent responsible for Bryan ending up in hell? Is it Bryan or is it God?
Your answer will help me to show you that it is impossible to disconnect God's foreknowledge from predestination

The world is not a stage. The Foreknowledge of God is at work.

Do you think it is fair if God sends a foetus to hell because God said that He knows (Foreknowledge) that the foetus will grow up to be a murderer and a serial rapist?
Even if Gods Foreknowledge was perfectly correct, there is no justice in punishing a man for a crime he hasn't commited.

shadeyinka:
@Blabbermouth:

You are a secondary school teacher. You teach mathematics. You need to leave your students alone in the class while you go to the principals office for a few minutes.

You foreknow that your students will begin to make noise after you leave the class. You infact can predict the ring leaders of the noise makers.

Now, you leave the class for 5minuites and your student begin to make noise.

Will it be correct to accuse YOU of making the noise makers to make noise?

shadeyinka:

No one is guilty or righteous on the basis of God's foreknowledge alone. Foreknowledge is just a privileged information of the future.

You seemed locked somehow in your misunderstanding even though I have used the example of the unjustness in God sending a foetus to hell on the basis of foreknowledge alone. Please go back and read.



God saying that Bryan will go to hell is God's foreknowledge of Bryan's actions here on earth.
Bryan by his actions through his choices go to hell.
God in no way made Bryan make choices worthy of hell.
But because God is not subject to time, God sees Bryan choices even before he was born.
However, Bryan can only be guilty AFTER he makes his own choices and executes them.


Let me help you out with a simplistic analogy

The Newest James Bond Film is to be out in December 5, 2020. By my foreknowledge, James Bond will survive against all odds and destroy the enemies of MI6.
Is my foreknowledge correct?
Is my foreknowledge then synonymous with predestination?

Just a simple logic
1. If freewill doesn't exist, then God must have predestined EVERYTHING.
2. If Freewill does exist, God could not have predestined EVERYTHING
3. In whose power lies whether you will respond to this post or not?
YOU or GOD?





Summary:
God does not decide who goes to heaven or hell. Each person does based on their present choices. Gods foreknowledge has no hand in man's choices except if man has no ability to make choices or decisions based on his own volition.

If God has determined who will go to heaven and hell and it is beyond our control to change it, then why does God give us commandments and laws?

shadeyinka:
@Blabbermouth:

You are a secondary school teacher. You teach mathematics. You need to leave your students alone in the class while you go to the principals office for a few minutes.

You foreknow that your students will begin to make noise after you leave the class. You infact can predict the ring leaders of the noise makers.

Now, you leave the class for 5minuites and your student begin to make noise.

Will it be correct to accuse YOU of making the noise makers to make noise?

delkuf:
God bless you. I love what you wrote here

MuttleyLaff:


Now Blabbermouth, this is foreknowledge, at a human being level, which incidentally, is actually just glorified guesswork. The teacher's know and/or knowing, is based on the class's past experience(s) of becoming unruly, once authority vacates. The teacher's version, is no match to the advanced foreknowledge of a supernatural Being, that can do and undo, who unlike the teacher, knows the end of every single matter you ever could imagine, before the beginning of them

linearity:


Interesting topic and logic here....

Let’s use your analog of the James Bond movie for a second here.

Your knowledge of the movie is finite and as such not as near as that of God, therefore your foreknowledge of how the movie will end does not equate to a predestination.

Let’s step back and look at that movie again, from the perspective of the Movie Director, just like you he have a foreknowledge that James Bond will survive, his foreknowledge also equates his predestination, because he was the one that wrote the script and predestined James Bond not to die, nothing James Bond would do will make him die, because the all knowing Movie Director has predestined him to survive against all odds.

Unlike you, the Movie Director’s knowledge about the movie is infinite, just like the knowledge of God about the universe, everything and everybody.

delkuf:
God bless you. I love what you wrote here

Blabbermouth:

JW read the scripture with the lens of Who God is (I.e. Holy, Love, Just and the likes... ), so every doctrine and belief is dependent on this system of scripture studying. This is why you are hell-bent on not believing that a lake of fire is the portion of those found wanting (despite it being boldly written and claimed by Jesus himself). That's great I must say.
You saying that there are "no literal names" is also a function of using that lens to interprete the scripture.
I will take this page of your playbook (or say, truth book) and use this lens where necessary.
C'ya

shadeyinka:

You have explained PREDESTINATION from the point of view of the script writer/director of a movies. But true FOREKNOWLEDGE is the ability to move forward in TIME. The only human possibility of this is in SCI-FI movies where time travel can take place.

Let's assume you can travel in time to 2025 where you saw Nigeria up in serious economic disaster where $1=N2459 because the new President made a horrible mistake by Privatising NNPC and NPA to his friends.

Now, back in 2020 the best you can do is advise Nigerians on who not to vote for. This is Foreknowledge as different from Predestination. Does your knowledge equate to you determining who is to be Nigerian President in 2023?
Certainly NOT!


Prophecy is just a sneak preview by a man of some certain aspects of God's Foreknowledge. What ever is seen is just the after effect of man's choices.

Have you ever wondered why the villain in a movie is never reported to the real life police? How can the villain be guilty of a crime the movie director made him do!?

How you read about the Cassandra Syndrome/Complex? Please do and then determine if Cassandra is the cause of the outcome of her prophecies?

linearity:


Interesting topic and logic here....

Let’s use your analog of the James Bond movie for a second here.

Your knowledge of the movie is finite and as such not as near as that of God, therefore your foreknowledge of how the movie will end does not equate to a predestination.

Let’s step back and look at that movie again, from the perspective of the Movie Director, just like you he have a foreknowledge that James Bond will survive, his foreknowledge also equates his predestination, because he was the one that wrote the script and predestined James Bond not to die, nothing James Bond would do will make him die, because the all knowing Movie Director has predestined him to survive against all odds.

Unlike you, the Movie Director’s knowledge about the movie is infinite, just like the knowledge of God about the universe, everything and everybody.

linearity:

...

MuttleyLaff:

....

shadeyinka:

...

shadeyinka:
@Blabbermouth:

You are a secondary school teacher. You teach mathematics. You need to leave your students alone in the class while you go to the principals office for a few minutes.

You foreknow that your students will begin to make noise after you leave the class. You infact can predict the ring leaders of the noise makers.

Now, you leave the class for 5minuites and your student begin to make noise.

Will it be correct to accuse YOU of making the noise makers to make noise?

Blabbermouth:
Honestly, I understand you completely. However my question still stands and I will prefer a binary YES or NO answer.
According to God's foreknowledge, "in the next 10 years I bought a buggati veyron for my daughter"... Can I with the power of freewill decide not to buy a Bugatti veyron and buy her a mansion instead?

Blabbermouth:

Even if this analogy is weak, I will settle with it.
In that illustration, the students can decide to keep quiet and read for an impromptu test the headmaster has promised to give, do you know why? The power to either make noise or keep quiet is in their hands, in this case, the teacher's foreknowledge (more of glorified guesswork) was wrong. In God's case, whether the students like it or not, the student will/must make noise, if they don't, God's foreknowledge will be wrong.

Blabbermouth:

Please answer this...
According to God's foreknowledge, "in the next 10 years I bought a buggati veyron for my daughter..." Can I with the power of freewill decide not to buy a Bugatti veyron and buy her a mansion instead?

Blabbermouth:

Shadeyinka: God already foreknows that a foetus will go to hell.
How did the 95% unconscious foetus choose hell for itself?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

linearity:


I get your analogy about the Election and Cassandra Syndrome, my only concern with those is that, you are looking at them or trying to explain them out from the viewpoint of humans, we are not omniscience like God, so over viewpoints are very limited, myopic and finite and as he tried to explain, we are also limited by time.

But, from God's viewpoint as someone/or you have explained before, there is no concept of time. Everything to him is in the present and all world's events have been condensed into a single point.

linearity:

One question for you on the equation of foreknowledge equating predestination from the viewpoint of God...which I believe to be true, but truly open to other logical explanation...What do you think of Romans 8:30 - 31; the rendition of those three verses from the Berean Study Bible states:


Verse 29: For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Verse 30: And those He predestined He also called; those He called He also justified; those He justified He also glorified.

Verse 31: What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?


Don't you think the above verses equates foreknowledge with predestination from God's omniscience and omnipresent viewpoint?

Thanks.

shadeyinka:
You are correct here!

Foreknowledge isn't Predestination.

If you looked at the verses 29-30, Foreknowledge came FIRST and based on that infallible Foreknowledge of God a Predestination was Done.

If there was no Foreknowledge before the predestination then what we have is a DETERMISM and freewill wouldn't exist. If there is no freewill, SIN will not also exist!

Blabbermouth:

To you, does God know the future?

Blabbermouth:

To you, does God know the future?

shadeyinka:

You are correct here!


Foreknowledge isn't Predestination.

If you looked at the verses 29-30, Foreknowledge came FIRST and based on that infallible Foreknowledge of God a Predestination was Done.

If there was no Foreknowledge before the predestination then what we have is a DETERMISM and freewill wouldn't exist. If there is no freewill, SIN will not also exist!