DappaD:


The Bible doesn't support a single word you said up there. But thanks for airing your own personal opinion, even though I never sought for it and that which is in direct contrast to what the Bible teaches.

Ihedinobi3:


When I returned to Nairaland in 2018, it seemed to me that CAPSLOCK was already there.

Ihedinobi3:


As my own response to the thread demonstrates, I believe that there is instruction as to the form that Christ's Resurrection took, and I believe that the Bible teaches that our hope is resurrection, so I am convinced that what the Bible has to say about what that Resurrection will be like is that much more important.

Dtruthspeaker:
Okay, I do respect your opinion even though you are wrong here but it is ok to disagree sometimes.

For I think you missed the weight where our Lord clearly says "My words are spirit and Life (Life, which we are pursuing). By the direct literal interpretation, one must come to the conclusion that Christ is saying that Life is Found in His Words.

Which Words? Answer = All that He Taught!

His resurrection was just to Show Us How Great He is (among all the other Greatness He had Shown Us already eg Devils took permission from Him, fed a stadium of people etc) and that death, is His servant, like us, therefore, we should have no fear of it.

For death, listens to Him and does His bidding as Proven by Lazarus, the young lad and Darius' Daughter, then Finally, Himself! Wow what a Great Performance He Put up for us to see and know that He is the Lord indeed!

With that Performance, He dealt a great crushing of all that we fear whether diseases or devils or hunger etc.

As Christ would say an evil tree must bear evil fruit, a good tree, good fruit, Nothing must bear nothing (Nothing can come out from nothing as we say) and Something must bring up something conversely.

So also death (Adam/Eve) must give birth to death (us) and Life (Christ) must give birth to Life (us when we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, Which is His words (Teachings).

"Verily, verily, If a man keep my sayings, he shall never see death" John 8:51

DappaD:





Really, when you think about it, the teaching that everybody will go to heaven is a really absurd one, because when God created the earth, he made it man's home(Genesis 2:15)
He gave the earth to humans to tend for it and inhabit it(Psalm 115:16)
He never said the earth was a “testing ground” as false religionists would have it.
His decision for humans to occupy the earth has not changed.(Isaiah 45:18) because the earth will remain forever, never to be destroyed(Psalm 78:69, Ecclesiastes 1:4)


It's only a select few, starting with those 120 Christians in the first century, the apostles Peter, John, Paul, Timothy and many others that will go to heaven as joint heirs/rulers with Jesus Christ(Romans 8:17, 2Timothy 2:12)
Even some in our day are anointed as corulers of Jesus but they aren't the people you think them to be.
This number going to heaven is limited to a “little flock” numbering a total of 144,000. They are bought from among mankind. (Please read Luke 12:32, Revelation 7:4-8, 14:1-4)
These ones are to serve as kings and priests to God in heaven(Revelation 1:6), judge the world(1Corinthians 6:2, Revelation 20:4) and will rule over the earth . (Revelation 5:9-10)

So you see, most people who shout and shout that they're going to heaven don't know squat about what they're going to do there from the Bible(if they're ever to go there, which is impossible)

DappaD:


I'll give this reply to you because you seem reasonable.
Job didn't and isn't going to see God literally. It's just like it was written that Jacob and Moses saw God “face to face” (Genesis 32:30, Exodus 33:11) but in reality, it was an angel of the true God who they saw and manifestations of divine power. (Genesis 32:24, Exodus 19:16)
The same way too, Job isn't saying he will see God literally, rather he saw the expression of God's power when He answered him(Job) out of the windstorm(Job 38:1)

Jesus also said that apart from him, no man had ever ascended into heaven before. (John 3:13)
The way to heaven was opened to faithful ones after Jesus' death, when God's holy spirit came upon 120 disciples first, and anointed them as joint heirs/rulers with Christ.(Acts 2:1-10)

Really, when you think about it, the teaching that everybody will go to heaven is a really absurd one, because when God created the earth, he made it man's home(Genesis 2:15)
He gave the earth to humans to tend for it and inhabit it(Psalm 115:16)
He never said the earth was a “testing ground” as false religionists would have it.
His decision for humans to occupy the earth has not changed.(Isaiah 45:18) because the earth will remain forever, never to be destroyed(Psalm 78:69, Ecclesiastes 1:4)


It's only a select few, starting with those 120 Christians in the first century, the apostles Peter, John, Paul, Timothy and many others that will go to heaven as joint heirs/rulers with Jesus Christ(Romans 8:17, 2Timothy 2:12)
Even some in our day are anointed as corulers of Jesus but they aren't the people you think them to be.
This number going to heaven is limited to a “little flock” numbering a total of 144,000. They are bought from among mankind. (Please read Luke 12:32, Revelation 7:4-8, 14:1-4)
These ones are to serve as kings and priests to God in heaven(Revelation 1:6), judge the world(1Corinthians 6:2, Revelation 20:4) and will rule over the earth . (Revelation 5:9-10)

So you see, most people who shout and shout that they're going to heaven don't know squat about what they're going to do there from the Bible(if they're ever to go there, which is impossible)

I know all of these might be too much, but you can continue from here with any of Jehovah's Witnesses in your area or visit JW.ORG for more info.

DappaD:


I'll give this reply to you because you seem reasonable.
Job didn't and isn't going to see God literally. It's just like it was written that Jacob and Moses saw God “face to face” (Genesis 32:30, Exodus 33:11) but in reality, it was an angel of the true God who they saw and manifestations of divine power. (Genesis 32:24, Exodus 19:16)
The same way too, Job isn't saying he will see God literally, rather he saw the expression of God's power when He answered him(Job) out of the windstorm(Job 38:1)

Jesus also said that apart from him, no man had ever ascended into heaven before. (John 3:13)
The way to heaven was opened to faithful ones after Jesus' death, when God's holy spirit came upon 120 disciples first, and anointed them as joint heirs/rulers with Christ.(Acts 2:1-10)

Really, when you think about it, the teaching that everybody will go to heaven is a really absurd one, because when God created the earth, he made it man's home(Genesis 2:15)
He gave the earth to humans to tend for it and inhabit it(Psalm 115:16)
He never said the earth was a “testing ground” as false religionists would have it.
His decision for humans to occupy the earth has not changed.(Isaiah 45:18) because the earth will remain forever, never to be destroyed(Psalm 78:69, Ecclesiastes 1:4)


It's only a select few, starting with those 120 Christians in the first century, the apostles Peter, John, Paul, Timothy and many others that will go to heaven as joint heirs/rulers with Jesus Christ(Romans 8:17, 2Timothy 2:12)
Even some in our day are anointed as corulers of Jesus but they aren't the people you think them to be.
This number going to heaven is limited to a “little flock” numbering a total of 144,000. They are bought from among mankind. (Please read Luke 12:32, Revelation 7:4-8, 14:1-4)
These ones are to serve as kings and priests to God in heaven(Revelation 1:6), judge the world(1Corinthians 6:2, Revelation 20:4) and will rule over the earth . (Revelation 5:9-10)

So you see, most people who shout and shout that they're going to heaven don't know squat about what they're going to do there from the Bible(if they're ever to go there, which is impossible)

I know all of these might be too much, but you can continue from here with any of Jehovah's Witnesses in your area or visit JW.ORG for more info.

Eazie351:

what if the 144000 are just the rulers and not the entire population of the new earth

Dtruthspeaker:


Okay, I do respect your opinion even though you are wrong here but it is ok to disagree sometimes.

For I think you missed the weight where our Lord clearly says "My words are spirit and Life (Life, which we are pursuing). By the direct literal interpretation, one must come to the conclusion that Christ is saying that Life is Found in His Words.

Which Words? Answer = All that He Taught!

His resurrection was just to Show Us How Great He is (among all the other Greatness He had Shown Us already eg Devils took permission from Him, fed a stadium of people etc) and that death, is His servant, like us, therefore, we should have no fear of it.

For death, listens to Him and does His bidding as Proven by Lazarus, the young lad and Darius' Daughter, then Finally, Himself! Wow what a Great Performance He Put up for us to see and know that He is the Lord indeed!

With that Performance, He dealt a great crushing of all that we fear whether diseases or devils or hunger etc.

As Christ would say an evil tree must bear evil fruit, a good tree, good fruit, Nothing must bear nothing (Nothing can come out from nothing as we say) and Something must bring up something conversely.

So also death (Adam/Eve) must give birth to death (us) and Life (Christ) must give birth to Life (us when we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, Which is His words (Teachings).

"Verily, verily, If a man keep my sayings, he shall never see death" John 8:51.

nencounter10:

The earth will not last forever.It will be changed by being destroyed and a new one created.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

MODIFIED:
I agree with Jehova witnesses that we will live forever on Earth, only that it is not this present one ,which will be destroyed, but a new one which will be created by God.

Ihedinobi:


Right. First, I thank you for the compliment, but I must warn you that you wouldn't be the first to revise that opinion of me in the course of the discussion. I do try to be reasonable and courteous in conversation, but I do have my limits, and also I really can't help how people choose to perceive and interpret my behavior in conversation.
Second, I should warn you that I am not a stranger to JW teachings. I grew up surrounded by JW publications including Watchtower and Awake magazines probably worth years of issue, the JW books for bible study, My Book of Bible Stories, the work on Revelation, etc. We still have a copy of the JW version of the Bible in my parents' house too. I didn't just have these things around me either. I read them. So I know quite a bit about JW theology. Sometimes though, like with your comment about Job not being in Heaven, I do run into comments that make me curious about a given JW's appreciation of the teachings that they believe, so I ask questions to see what I might learn.
Finally, I should warn you that it is likely that the best that we can get out of this conversation is a mutual appreciation of each other's beliefs rather than any conversion. This is essentially to ask you to be reasonable in your treatment of this conversation. You shouldn't get frustrated if you find me unyielding in my convictions. I, for my own part, already take for granted that you will not accept my position as true, so I am speaking to you only to understand what you personally (rather than collectively as part of a group) believe and also to explain my own beliefs to you. I will not take offense if you refuse to agree with me. I don't mind that. So, I am hoping for a decent, mutually respectful discussion, even if not any kind of agreement in our beliefs.
Having said all that, these are the passages that you shared:
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
(NKJV) Genesis 32:30
24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.
(NKJV) Genesis 32:24
I'm afraid I don't see anything about an angel here. But it is certainly true that the word "angel" actually means "messenger," so that even the "man" in verse 24 is really a messenger of the Lord, if not an angel in the technical sense. My concern though is that there is nothing actually saying that the person here is an angel in that technical sense. It is certainly true too that Jacob might have been wrong about his ideas of the person that he wrestled with, but I wonder if anything in the Bible gives us any reason to believe that the actions of that person (namely, wrestling with a human being, blessing the human being, and changing the human being's name, all done unilaterally) are in any sense normal to angels as we see in the Bible.
You might mention the "Angel of the Lord" that is frequently in view in the Old Testament, but this argument above would mean that that "Angel" is at least not like the other angels in the Bible.
These are the next couple of verses that you shared:
11 So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.
(NKJV) Exodus 33:11
16 Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain; and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled.
(NKJV) Exodus 19:16
I think you had a different verse in mind in the second one, but I'm not sure which one you meant. Do you want to check and confirm?
In the meantime, there is this other passage that I think that you should also take into consideration:
5 Then the Lord came down in the pillar of cloud and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam. And they both went forward. 6 Then He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My house.
8 I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?”
(NKJV) Numbers 12:5-8
The above seems unequivocal in its claim that Moses did indeed speak face to face with God Himself. I'm not sure why I should believe that he didn't.
I don't doubt, of course, that both Moses and the people of Israel saw powerful displays of God's divine power. There is no doubt of that, just as Exodus 19:16 shows, but I find it hard to see how a display of power can in any way be interpreted as God Himself. I have never mistaken Exodus 19:16 to suggest that what they saw was God. It was one thing to see how dreadful and powerful the Presence of God Himself is and quite another to see God Himself, in my thinking. Consider the following passage, for example:
9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.
(NKJV) Exodus 24:9-11
The detail in this passage leaves it really hard to believe that anything here is about seeing a display of power. And the passage seems unequivocal too that the people mentioned saw God, not an angel.
Regarding the Job passage, I realize that you and I may have to agree to disagree. The JW Bible actually puts Job 19:26 like this:
And after my skin, [which] they have skinned off, --this! Yet reduced in my flesh I shall behold God,
Job 19:26 NWT
Other mainstream translations put it like this:
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
(NKJV) Job 19:26
Alternative reading from NKJV footnotes: "And after my skin is struck off, this [I know], that in my flesh I shall see God"
26 “Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
(NASB) Job 19:26
Alternative reading from NASB footnotes: "And after my skin which they have cut off, Yet from my flesh I shall see God"
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(KJV) Job 19:26
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
(NIV) Job 19:26
Alternative reading from NIV footnotes: "And after I awake, though this body has been destroyed, then apart from my flesh I will see God"
Of course, no translation is perfect, and sometimes even all the mainstream translations are wrong, but I don't really see any reason to believe that these ones are all wrong in this case. So, I can't accept the JW translation, especially given the JW position on resurrection that seems to me to explain why otherwise clear Scriptures become difficult to make sense of in the NWT.
So, when you use Job 38:1 to explain 19:26, I'm afraid I don't buy it. It doesn't seem to fit anything in the rest of the Bible at all.
Regarding "Jesus also said that apart from him, no man had ever ascended into heaven before. (John 3:13)"
I certainly agree with you that the way into Heaven was only opened by the Lord after His death and resurrection. I'm not sure that that has anything to do with Job 19:26 though. It seems obvious to me that that verse is about the Resurrection, not about going to Heaven. Certainly, Job is in Heaven, if Ephesians 4:8 is anything to go by. But Job is obviously not "in [his] flesh" since he has not yet been resurrected in a body. According to 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 quoted below, the Resurrection is not going to happen until the Return of the Lord Jesus. After that time, the next Resurrection will be at the end of the Millennium, when those who came to believe in Jesus Christ after His Second Advent and until the end of His Thousand-Year reign will be raised from the dead in their own new bodies.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
(NKJV) 1 Corinthians 15:22-24
So, it is only at the return of Jesus Christ to rule over the world that I would expect Job 19:26 to be fulfilled, not when he went to Heaven.
About the 120 disciples, I'm curious how you read that they were anointed to be co-rulers with Christ at the Pentecost. I'm not sure how that computes at all, especially considering
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
(NKJV) Romans 8:9
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
(NKJV) Ephesians 1:13-14
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
(NKJV) Ephesians 4:30
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
(NKJV) 2 Corinthians 5:5
I'm not sure what the difference is between the pouring out of the Spirit in Acts 2 and these other passages is that leads to any idea that only these people and a select few besides are anointed to be co-rulers with Jesus Christ. I note that I also see the following in the Bible:
26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
as I also have received from My Father
(NKJV) Revelation 2:26-27
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
(NKJV) Revelation 3:21
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
(NKJV) 1 John 5:4-5
I agree that by comparison, it is only the few who are saved, just as the Lord Jesus said in Matthew 7:14
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
(NKJV) Matthew 7:14
But I don't think that the few meant were 144 000, especially given that the only place where this number is quoted in the Bible ascribes it to actual Israelites, and not just Isrealites, but Jewish men specifically. We also have Hebrews 11 that seems to me to roundly denounce any idea that Old Testament believers don't count with the Lord. In fact, Abraham is called the father of faith, and he doesn't seem to me to have been accommodated in your catalogue of these co-rulers, or am I mistaken here?
Regarding the matter of going to Heaven, I have some agreement with you and considerable disagreement with you. I totally agree that the final destiny of man is not to live in Heaven forever with God. The earth was always God's Home. The Third Heaven seems to me to be a temporary abode, a divine battle headquarters, in fact. So, it is not part of my theology that any of us will stay there forever or even that God Himself will. In Revelation 21, we have it clearly given to us that God returns to the Earth to live among His Children who will finally see His Face and be with Him forever.
I also agree that the Earth of today was given to the children of men as the passage you shared says, even if Adam ceded his authority to Satan eventually. Much of what happens on earth, at any rate, seems to me to be shaped by human choices rather than particularly by angelic ones. I do believe that angelic influence over human beings is not at all to be discounted (Ephesians 2:2, for example), but humans are largely the direct players on earth.
I don't agree though that not everybody goes to Heaven, if by "everybody" you mean everyone who believes in Jesus Christ. I'll grant that those who are alive when the Lord Jesus returns are likely to not have to spend any significant time in Heaven when they are resurrected, since all those that are in Heaven will be returning with the Lord to take back control of the earth from Satan and his fellow rebel angels anyway, but I don't really see that even they will be barred from Heaven any more than the angels are today. Heaven is simply a temporary tent for God and His loyal children, both elect angels and elect humans, while the war on earth is still being prosecuted to reclaim the Universe for God from the rebel Satan. When the war is over, there will be no further need for this sequestering, since the Universe will have been cleansed of all rebellion and opposition to God's Rule. So, God and all His Children will return to the new Earth to live together forever.
​1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
(NKJV) Revelation 21:1-5
As for going to Heaven, we have the following passages:
​1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
(NKJV) 2 Corinthians 5:1-8
23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
(NKJV) Philippians 1:23
So, it seems that this is a thing that all Christians have to look forward to if they were to die before the Lord Jesus returns. You can also refer to Ephesians 4:8 quoted earlier to see that Old Testament believers also went to Heaven.
About the eternity of the Earth, the Bible does teach that there will always be a heaven and an earth, and I believe that too, but I think that you may be missing the detail that this present creation is said by the Bible to be destined for destruction by fire after which it will be created anew but void of all unrighteousness. So, while I agree with you to some extent, I hold a slightly different position than you do:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Peter 3:10-13 NKJV

Well, this is what I think of your positions and what my own positions are. I am happy to discuss them a bit more with you if you like, but it's fine if you don't want to engage any further. As I said, it is unlikely that I will be camping out at the JW website or inviting any JW into my home for any further clarification of your position. I think that I know it well enough, but if you think I don't, I'm happy to be corrected by you. If you are unwilling to clear up any misconceptions that I have of your positions, then I suppose I will have to carry them with me going forward.
Cheers.

Depsui:
Jesus Christ resurrected in flesh. But it was a glorified body. That's why you see it in the bible that Jesus Christ was the first one to resurrect from the dead. But we know that lazarus and some other people were raised from the dead.

What differentiates the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the others was that He resurrected with a glorified body.

The glorified body is like a combination of flesh and Spirit . On the last day, every Christian that makes heaven will also take on this glorified body. It is with this glorified body that we will be able to live forever.

Emusan:
Very awkward and irrational doctrine!



Yet Apostle Paul could say: "There is one mediator between God and man, The MAN Jesus Christ..."



The @underlined shows your lack of understanding of what you're saying!

You intentionally added "BLOOD" to it, whereas you did that to explain away the FLESHY BODY that other spirit beings had appeared with.

Hypocrite!



The point here is, if Jesus keeps appearing with many fleshy bodies means He keeps sacrificing different bodies because you have to explain what happened to those bodies Jesus keeps using.



This is the reason I said, this doctrine is awkward because if Jesus sacrificed his flesh "ONCE for all time" and you went ahead to claim He keeps appearing in different BODIES, then how many sacrifices did Jesus do?



Spirit creatures can take on human form but no spirit creatures have ever made a statement like PHILLIPS
“Why are you so worried?” said Jesus, “and why do doubts arise in your minds? Look at my hands and feet—it is really I myself! Feel me and see; ghosts have no flesh or bones as you can see that I have.”

This is the most easy and simple verse that even a primary school pupils won't struggle to comprehend but since the 8 men in USA must be defended by their followers, what do you expect?

The day JWs will open their mind to understand this single verse is the day they'll be set free from the shackle of the lying organization.



So Jesus kept sacrificing different human bodies.



Lies, provide the verse where it is stated that people couldn't identify the FLESHY BODIES?



So which body did Jesus ascend to heaven with?

Do they recognize Him that time?

If Jesus had appeared to them with different BODIES, how are they sure is the real Jesus who ascended to heaven in their presence?



Liars will never say the truth!

You don't want to say, Jesus appeared to Thomas with the REAL BODY because that'll amount to Jesus picked His real body back and you've already said that can't happen.

Now, Jesus had to appear to Thomas with a WOUNDED MARK just to deceive Thomas and the rest of apostles.

Didn't this sound like a deceitful act to you?

When we even know the reason why Jesus had to do that is based on Thomas word himself "Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” John 20:24-25

The other disciples said "We have seen the Lord" and Thomas wants to see what the other disciples have seen by saying "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe"

The other disciples could have cleared Thomas expectations by simply say "Look the Lord didn't appear to us WITH HIS REAL BODY" but they never did.

Also, from this account, we can see that Thomas was anticipating for the REAL BODY of Christ not as spirit being, few days later the LORD cleared Thomas' doubt by appearing with His REAL BODY and even challenged Thomas to do as he had already claimed.

But instead, Thomas recognized this divine witness and made the most shocking statement "My Lord and my God!" The statement JWs are still struggling to understand.

Ihedinobi3:

I suppose the difference between us here is that I consider the whole Bible to be the words of Jesus Christ. I think that that is what the Bible says itself.

39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
John 5:39 (NKJV)

46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
John 5:46-47 (NKJV)

So, I cannot agree with you.

DappaD:


No, I do not wish to continue this discussion as it will not yield any positive results. Time is of the essence.

N/B: There are a lot of errors in your post—but I do not blame you though because it's just due to the gaps in your knowledge.

nencounter10:



The earth will not last forever.It will be changed by being destroyed and a new one created.


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.



Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.


Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

MODIFIED:

I agree with Jehova witnesses that we will live forever on Earth, only that it is not this present one ,which will be destroyed, but a new one which will be created by God.

nencounter10:

The earth will not last forever.It will be changed by being destroyed and a new one created.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

MODIFIED:

I agree with Jehova witnesses that we will live forever on Earth, only that it is not this present one ,which will be destroyed, but a new one which will be created by God.

Barristter07:
What I can deduce here is you are against the materialized body , and you ignorantly assume it implies Jesus deceived or lied to his apostles.

For the records, Mary didn't recognize him at first . this can never happen if The Face she saw was the one she always knew

Clearly he materialized, and for the statement to the disciples saying he is flesh,

it's not unusual usual for a materialized spirit to claim to be a MAN. Would you say an angel that claimed to be a man lied ? If no, apply the same sense here.

Emusan:


Here is Jesus very own word "Look at my hands and feet— IT IS REALLY I MYSELF! Feel me and see; ghosts have no flesh or bones as you can see that I have.”

I don't know how hard it is for you people to comprehend simple English.

Call any primary school pupil in your area and ask him/her to read this verse and then ask him/her what does s/he understand from it.

How can Jesus openly said "IT IS REALLY I MYSELF" after He asked them to LOOK at His Hands and Feet that ghosts don't have FLESH or BONES as they see Him have, not a deception if Christ didn't resurrect bodily?

Can you provide scholars interpretation of this verse apart from watchtower interpretation?



Show us from the scripture that it was Christ's FACE Mary saw...

Even Mary herself is looking for THE BODY of Jesus not a ghost and after Jesus called her, she went to report to the disciples that she has seen the Lord.

Barristter07:

1Corinthians 15:48

" And everyone in heaven has a body like the body of the one who came from heaven. " CEV

According to this, Everyone in heaven. Including God himself as the same body as Jesus.

Does God and the angels have flesh ??

Barristter07:
Spirit's don't have flesh . Jesus was right. God the Father and the Angels are all spirit's , and they do not possess flesh and bones. This doesn't however make Jesus flesh and bones.

Reason is Jesus have the same body as those who are heavenly (1 Cor 15:48 )

Flesh and bones is DUST.

your Ultimate misread from the verse would mean Jesus isn't even a Spirit being. Since you wanted to misinterpret his words. Which is a pure lie. He is a Spirit being, a fleshly human can't walk through walls.

Another prove for his Materialization is found in the Fact That Mary mistook him for a Gardener . Which means his appearance changed. What she recognized was the manner of speaking

You said I should show you where a spirit claimed to be a Man ?

Judges 13:11
Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the man, he said, "Are you the man who talked to my wife?" "I am," he said.

In short the angel claimed to be an human of flesh and bones here. Was he lying ? yeye dey smell

Emusan:


Jesus has a glorified BODY that's why he can still be called MAN in heaven now.

You know spirit don't have FLESH and you said Jesus wasn't deceiving His disciples by saying "...ghosts have no flesh and bones AS YOU SEE THAT I HAVE"

Why would Jesus make such statement if He was truly a SPIRIT without Flesh and Bones?



I just thrashed that above, for you even to claim that verse is for all HEAVENLY HOSTS shows how shallow your understanding of the scripture is.



And Jesus claimed to have it after resurrection!



Olodo...a glorified body is energized by the Spirit

But you said Jesus materializing is FLESHLY, confused JWs!

And I can see how you keep dodging my question:
How many sacrifices did Jesus make since He kept using different bodies?



Now, you've deviated from Mary not recognizing HIS FACE which you can't provide scripture for to mistook Him.

Mary was CRYING, have you seen people crying and see normally?

Another lie, not manner of speaking, Jesus converses with Mary without her knowing UNTIL JESUS CALLED Her like He did at the grave of Lazarus!

"As soon as Mary said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there. But she did not know who he was. Jesus asked her, “Why are you crying? Who are you looking for?”

She thought he was the gardener and said, “Sir, if you have taken his body away, please tell me, so I can go and get him.”

Then Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to him, “Rabboni.” The Aramaic word “Rabboni” means “Teacher.” John 20:14-16 CEV



I didn't see where Angel made a claim of being HUMAN OF FLESH AND BONES here.

"6 The woman ran and told her husband, “A man of God appeared to me! He looked like one of God’s angels, terrifying to see. I didn’t ask where he was from, and he didn’t tell me his name... God answered Manoah’s prayer, and the angel of God appeared once again to his wife as she was sitting in the field. But her husband, Manoah, was not with her. 10 So she quickly ran and told her husband, “The man who appeared to me the other day is here again!” 11 Manoah ran back with his wife and asked, “Are you the man who spoke to my wife the other day?” “Yes,” he replied, “I am.”

We can see how the writer switches from the real identity of the person to Manoah's wife experience.

It was what the woman narrated to her husband that the husband based his question upon.

Lemme break it down:

Wife = I saw a MAN of God who appeared to me, he looked like one of God's angels

Writer = God answered Manoah's prayer and the ANGEL OF GOD...

Wife = she told her husband THE MAN who appeared to me

Husband = Are you THE MAN?

Angel = Yes I am

So are you expecting the Angel to say "NO I'M NOT THE MAN" The question isn't about NATURE but IDENTITY.

Do you think the Angel would have denied his nature if the question comes this way: Are you A MAN or An Angel?

The same thing happened in Genesis at the narration of the fall of Man.

When God questioned Adam, Adam pointed to his wife, His wife pointed to The Serpent.

Despite the fact that God knows the Serpent was Lucifer/Devil, God didn't address the Serpent as Lucifer/Devil but addressed it the way the WOMAN identify it.

This is because It's not about NATURE but IDENTIFICATION.

You need Bible study!

MaxInDHouse:


God's word said humans and animals all have the same spirit as in what energises them to keep living {Ecclesiastes 3:19} so going by the highlighted, do animals possess glorified bodies too?

Emusan:

Olodo second....
You See GLORIFIED BODY, which is a body after resurrection!
Will animals be resurrected
Go for Bible study!

Emusan:


Jesus has a glorified BODY that's why he can still be called MAN in heaven now.

You know spirits don't have FLESH and you said Jesus wasn't deceiving His disciples by saying "...ghosts have no flesh and bones AS YOU SEE THAT I HAVE"

Why would Jesus make such statement if He was truly a SPIRIT without Flesh and Bones?

I just thrashed that above, for you even to claim that verse is for all HEAVENLY HOSTS shows how shallow your understanding of the scripture is.



And Jesus claimed to have it after resurrection!

Olodo...a glorified body is energized by the Spirit

But you said Jesus materializing is FLESHLY, confused JWs!

And I can see how you keep dodging my question:
How many sacrifices did Jesus make since He kept using different bodies?

Now, you've deviated from Mary not recognizing HIS FACE which you can't provide scripture for to mistook Him.


Mary was CRYING, have you seen people crying and see normally?

Another lie, not manner of speaking, Jesus converses with Mary without her knowing UNTIL JESUS CALLED Her like He did at the grave of Lazarus!

"As soon as Mary said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there. But she did not know who he was . Jesus asked her, “Why are you crying? Who are you looking for?”

She thought he was the gardener and said, “Sir, if you have taken his body away, please tell me, so I can go and get him.”

Then Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to him, “Rabboni.” The Aramaic word “Rabboni” means “Teacher.” John 20:14-16 CEV

I didn't see where Angel made a claim of being HUMAN OF FLESH AND BONES here.

"6 The woman ran and told her husband, “A man of God appeared to me! He looked like one of God’s angels, terrifying to see. I didn’t ask where he was from, and he didn’t tell me his name... God answered Manoah’s prayer, and the angel of God appeared once again to his wife as she was sitting in the field. But her husband, Manoah, was not with her. 10 So she quickly ran and told her husband, “The man who appeared to me the other day is here again!” 11 Manoah ran back with his wife and asked, “Are you the man who spoke to my wife the other day?” “Yes,” he replied, “I am.”

We can see how the writer switches from the real identity of the person to Manoah's wife experience.

It was what the woman narrated to her husband that the husband based his question upon.

Lemme break it down:

Wife = I saw a MAN of God who appeared to me, he looked like one of God's angels

Writer = God answered Manoah's prayer and the ANGEL OF GOD...

Wife = she told her husband THE MAN who appeared to me

Husband = Are you THE MAN?

Angel = Yes I am

So are you expecting the Angel to say "NO I'M NOT THE MAN" The question isn't about NATURE but IDENTITY.

Do you think the Angel would have denied his nature if the question comes this way: Are you A MAN or An Angel?

The same thing happened in Genesis at the narration of the fall of Man.

When God questioned Adam, Adam pointed to his wife, His wife pointed to The Serpent.

Despite the fact that God knows the Serpent was Lucifer/Devil, God didn't address the Serpent as Lucifer/Devil but addressed it the way the WOMAN identified it.


This is because It's not about NATURE but IDENTIFICATION.

You need Bible study!

Emusan:


"In the beginning was the one, who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God." CEV

If you agree with the translation above you should agree with that John 1:1 from the same CEV but I bet you won't because of your hypocrisy!

This is the same verse from other translations

NIV
As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.

NKJV
As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.

NLV
All men of the earth are made like Adam. But those who belong to Christ will have a body like the body of Christ Who came from heaven.

NLT
Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man.

VOICE
The earth man shares his earth nature with all those made of earth; likewise the heavenly man shares His heavenly nature with all those made of heaven.

One thing in common with all these translations is that they all used the term "Heavenly MAN" which means this verse isn't about the HEAVENLY HOSTS but people who will be like CHRIST Himself; the heavenly MAN!

Barristter07:

" This is because It's not about NATURE but IDENTIFICATION. " - Emusan

Good. We will need the above.

Jesus was raised a Spiritual body , say the scriptures ... It was sown a physical body and raised as Spiritual body.

Spiritual body IS NOT physical. To wrong your idea of glorified body.

" This is because It's not about NATURE but IDENTIFICATION." - Emusan

That's how he appeared at that moment.

You must be kidding ?

" Everyone on earth has a body like the body of the one who was made from the dust of the earth. And everyone in heaven has a body like the body of the one who came from heaven." CEV 1Cor 15:48

Body of earth differs from the body In heaven, So God and his angels are made of Flesh nd bonez ?


Na earthly body he has ??

Oga, just accept it means Jesus have no divine nature . Since he isn't a spirit being.

Use angels as a case study.

Emusan ooooo hahahahaha

Read the underlined . So crying means she is blind . It says She saw the person, but Did know who he was ... So in a matter of 3 days, she forget Jesus looks ??

He was clearly not the Face she was used to. Prove of Materialization .


You this bonafide liar claim person no go recognize his close family to the extent it wi be recorded that " DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS "

Just as the angel statement wasn't about Nature but identification at the moment, Jesus statement too was about identification . Not his Nature.


Gracias!

Emusan:


Lying liar, you have started injecting your dubious lie into my post!



This is how your favorite translation puts 1 Corin 15:42 -44 42 That’s how it will be when our bodies are raised to life. These bodies will die, but the bodies that are raised will live forever. 43 These ugly and weak bodies will become beautiful and strong. 44 As surely as there are physical bodies, there are spiritual bodies. And our physical bodies will be changed into spiritual bodies.

Verse 43 points to the very BODIES which is the one that'll be changed to SPIRITUAL BODIES with beautiful and strong.

Your lack of scriptural understanding makes you think the spiritual bodies isn't visible and contains flesh and bones.



I know you'll come with this twist!

Jesus case is about WHO HE WAS and FORM (NATURE)

The disciple THOUGHT THEY HAVE SEEN A GHOST (that is spirit)

Which Jesus cleared that HE WASN'T A SPIRIT BUT THE VERY PERSON HE WAS when He was with them.

"IT IS REALLY I MYSELF......for spirits don't have flesh and bones as you see THAT I HAVE"

This is clear enough for a sound mind unless brainwashed JWs.



Olodo....

"AND EVERYONE IN HEAVEN...." is a wrong application by you not the translators that's why I quoted other translations to show you that, that verse is addressing PEOPLE WHO WILL BE RESURRECTED not the WHOLE OF HEAVENLY HOSTS.

By the way, you abandoned your demonic translation NWT now by cling with CEV when it suits you but do you agree with CEV in John 1:1? Hypocrite!



Jesus always has His Divine nature intact even when He was on earth.



Isn't the materialized body FLESHLY?

Jesus kept sacrificing different bodies

Oga Ade!



Now you've brought the FACE again when it wasn't written in the scripture.

When Jesus talked to her "Jesus asked her, “Why are you crying? Who are you looking for?” why didn't she recognize Him not until Jesus CALLED HER?

One can infer from this scripture that there's actually a wide distance between them, that's why the scripture recorded that Mary TURNED TWICE!

She first turned to see Jesus who didn't she recognized and turned again when Jesus called her.



Jesus case was about who HE WAS because the disciples THOUGHT THEY HAVE SEEN A SPIRIT (as spirits don't have flesh and bones).

If the thought of the disciples was not recorded, then your assertion can be correct but alas it was that very wrong THOUGHT that "they have seen a Spirit" that Jesus corrected to clear that what stand in front of them ISN'T A SPIRIT BUT THE VERY PERSON THEY KNOW.

Why would Jesus clear their THOUGHT of seeing a SPIRIT if Jesus was actually a SPIRIT?

What is God's nature ? Flesh or Spirit . To take Jesus words to his apostles literally is to cancel out Jesus having divine nature.

It's simply a case of identification not nature.

Back to the issue of Mary

Lie 1: Mary cried that's why she couldn't see Jesus , U don't have any shame, no mater how small.

Lie 2: one can presume there is a wide distance between them ?

Where did you read that, wide distance, yet they can hear each other audibly as they spoke.

Stop mocking yourself on this thread u this man

Again think about that verse , it says *She didn't know who he was* ... Its too big a word, Jesus materialized . Not the appearance she know.

Barristter07:
There is a reason why others didn't put the word " man" . It doesn't exist in the text . Fraud#

Meanwhile you are not making any distinction, it's still the same earthly body of flesh and bones from the first man Adam you are calling Heavenly body . Are this confused?

For the records, those who will rule with Christ will become Spirit beings. ( John 3:6 what is born of spirit IS SPIRIT )

Now that we agree Jesus and those going to heaven will have same body. It's now obvious Christ is a Spirit being.