₦airaland Forum

Besides in what sense did Jesus say that we should pray for human rulers?
Give the scripture and let us examine it,

Note that Jesus asked us to PRAY for our enemies and those who wish us bad but does that now imply participation with them? Besides Jesus and the first century apostles and disciples also OBEYED and RESPECTED the rule of law of his day and PRAYED for their enemies, even the rulers of the Land, but THEY WERE STILL POLITICALLY NEUTRAL.

Lets put this into context though using an example.

When Satan wanted to try Job, he went to God and told him what he wanted to do. God said that he could go on and do whatever he wanted except for killing Job. The fact that God told him he could go ahead with his plan did it now mean that God approved of the Devil, his plans, his ways nor his deeds? That he told the Devil he could carry on with his plan does that in any way suggest that God would want any of his faithful servants to participate in it? Did God really approve of the Devil and his plans even though the plan went ahead with God's say so?

God okayed the Devils plan to try Job. He gave the Devil the go-ahead. (The authority with which the devil tries Job could be said to have been ordained or granted from above, the same as the authority with which Pilate killed Jesus) At the same time the bible says that God does not try people with evil things. That God says ok go and do this does not necessarily mean it is according to his will nor does it mean it has his Actual approval nor does it mean that he wants his true servants to participate or be involved in that same thing that he said it is ok for the Devil to go ahead and do. (It only means that those things happened only because God gives them full permission and allows for them to happen) That he gave the Devil an OK does not mean that he will not destroy the devil at the end of the day.

Human rulerships have God's ok to go ahead and do what they want in exercising rulership. It can be said in that sense that their rulership is granted from God. But that does not in anyway mean they are really in harmony with his will, nor does it mean that they will not in the same manner be destroyed by God.

stimulus:
@sage,

Interesting. However, you clearly missed the issues presented in these texts as relating to the core question that has brought us up until this point. I'd like you to see that these are dealing with the apocalypse of the endtime when Satan gathers the rulers of the world to the battle of that great day of God Almighty at Armegeddon (Rev. 16:14, 16). Infact, when reading Daniel's prophecy, note that the events described in chapters 7 & 8 were said to have reference to the endtimes:

Dan. 8:17, 19, 26; 10:14
"So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. . . And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. . . And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. . .Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days."

Again and again, Daniel was told that the vision did not apply to his time and day; nor are we to take it to mean that we are already in the day of the Armageddon. There are a few things you should see in this connection:

(a) the time of these beastly kings - "at the time of the end shall be the vision" (ch. 8:17)

(b) the nature of their ascension to power -
"four great beasts came up from the sea. . . four kings, which shall arise out of the earth" (ch. 7:3 & 17)

(c) the operation and [/b]character[/b] of their power -
"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them . . .
and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered" (ch. 7:21 & 8:12)
"he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws" (ch. 7:25).

(d) the diabolical source of their powers -
"his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power" (Dan. 8:24)
"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast" (Rev. 13:4).

The basic reason why I delineated these issues is so we do not mistake the apocalyptic visions of the endtime for that which God in His grace at the present time offers to the nations in terms of civil governments which HE ALONE appoints (Rom. 13:1). When dealing with the ultimate rebellion instigated by Satan, we should not confuse issues and lump them up as applying to EVERY political government in the world presently. The following reasons are why I'm persuaded that there is a distinction between them:

(a) In EVERY government appointed by God (Rom. 13:1), Christians are actively to RESPECT, OBEY, and PRAY for them (1 Tim. 2:1-2; 1 Pet. 2:13-14). Whereas, in the beastly kings of the apocalypse, we are not urged to show the same deference to them.

(b) The civil and political governments appointed by God bear the following features: they are "sent by Him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well" (1 Pet. 2:14); also, these "rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. . .he is the minister of God to thee for good . .a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil (Rom. 13:3-4). Whereas, the apocalyptic beastly rulers are the direct opposite, such that they "cast down the truth to the ground; and practised, and prospered" (Dan. 7:21 & 8:12); also speaking "great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints" (ch. 7:25).

These are just part of the distinctions that should help us understand that the apocalyptic diabolical kings are not to be taken as literally applying to ALL political and civil governments which Scripture clearly says are ordained by God.

The Harlot of Revelation 19 is NOT the CHURCH, and I hope you can mark that distinction quite well.

Unfortunately, they do not "harmonize", in as far as you were lumping them all up and unable to distinguish between them. Besides, I've dealt with the verses you gave above to show in what context Scripture speaks of the devil as the god/ruler/prince of this world - and not in even ONE instance is there the remotest idea that the devil is in ULTIMATE CONTROL. May I remind you that even when some might think that Satan is the sole mover of events during the apocalypse, God was still in control of the affairs that would seal their doom:

Revelation 17:17
"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

Non of those verses you quoted in anyway support the idea that the present political system of the world or any rulers power comes from God. That the bible says that It is to whom God wants that he gives power (does not mean that human goverments are in line with his will and Romans reminds Christians of their obligation to obey goverments)

Neither of the two passages nor any of the other passages gives the slightest excuse for Christians to participate in wordly politics.

Besides you said that the beasts refer to the end times? How then did The beasts of Daniel chapter 8 turn out to be Alexander, his empire and the Persian empire?. Why would the angel in Revelation refer to the the Seven headed wild beast as rulers who rule over mankind?

stimulus:
@Ananlytical,

Thanks for your commendation. It makes any reader wonder that it would take nothing less that 35 replies to get sage offering even one verse that stipulates what he categorically stated, and which he continued to maintain for that long. Bottomline is that, we can only try to reason with people; and if they would rather take it otherwise, mercy to them.

Blessings

i wanted to answer your question in due time. I really wanted you to see that in the light of bible promises and God's divine plan, the human political system has no future and is not where a true Christian should be found. Whatever my answer to that singular question was and still is not going to change God's plan to end human rulership. I was amazed at the way you kept pounding on it as the answer to that question would nullify all what the bible had said.

But i was going to answer you that question regardless.

@Stimulus no problems. We are all busy from time to time.

stimulus:
@sage,

Many thanks for at last offering an answer to my question. Forgive my inability the past few days to post a reply due to tight schedules, but I was impressed all the same.

However, before coming back to deal with the verses you offered in defence of your persuasions, I'd like you to carefully go through them again and mirror your discourse on Rom. 13:1-4 and the other verses from the OT I've severally offered. Particularly, I'd like you to reflect on what relationship Christians bear in respect to the beastly powers which you misconstrue for political and civil governments of our time as God gives them.

Second, please carefully reflect on your misconstruing the "harlot" for THE CHURCH; and then see if it makes any sense at all that you might be mistaken - and gravely so.

Lord willing, this weekend I'll be back to address the points you raised and hope that you'll find me the verse that specifically stipulates your statement that the devil "gives" human rulership to whomever he pleases.

Cheers.

Meanwhile i did not misconstrue anything. The bible revealed the identity of the wild beast that recieves rulership from the devil in the book of Revelation as rulers, the same way it did for Daniel. Go through those scriptures that i posted. It wont be hard for any good bible student to have identified who the beasts were referring to even before the angel clearly identified it. The similarities to the beasts of Daniel are just too striking to miss.

Its also interesting to know that humans made an image of this beast and it begins active rulership over humans and humans now pledge their allegiance to it.


Il come back and discuss Romans 13:1-4. In fact Romans 13:1-4 was written by a politically neutral apostle to a politically neutral Christian congregatin in Rome. Those First Century Christians clearly understood that their Christian calling left no room for any sort of participation in the wordly political system. BUT THEY ALSO CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD THAT OBEYING CAESARS COMMANDS WHICH DO NOT CONFLICT WITH CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES WAS A CHRISTIAN OBLIGATION. CHRISTIANS WERE NOT TO TO TRY TO SUBVERT THE STATE IN ANYWAY. But Neither that nor the book of Daniel in anyway condone true Christians participation in the political affairs of the world.

Il give my final thoughts and also put an end to my side of this discussion. I believe i have done this topic justice. Everybody has his choices 2 make in life

Analytical:
@Sage
Haba!  Understandest thou what thou readest?  I couln't help but ask!  

@Stimulus
Thanks for your patience.  You are doing just well and have added to my understanding.  I will leave Sage for you.  I thought this topic has long been concluded. . .

God bless y'all.

What do you mean by that .  Did you read those scriptures at all

Stimulus has been asking for an example of where the devil gives rulership to human rulers. He kept asking the question as if it would  negate what the scriptures has promised is in store for Human Rulership and all those that partake of it and their military forces. He keeps asking those questions like it would nulify the example Jesus and his apostles set for any true christians with regards to wordly political affairs.


The bible identifies the wild beast with seven heads and ten horns as human rulers. It is interesting to note that the image of the wild beast given rulership by the Devil is formed by Men who now pledge their alligiance to it.

The way the Angel identified the wild beast as human rulership is uncomfortable to the vast majority of those on earth but so is Truth in general.

I want him to reply to this and then il post my last postings and lay my case to rest.

we have been arguing this for a while but let us examine this.

Rev Chap 18 gives a very classical example of the sense in which Caesar is God's Servant

The Seven headed wild beast which recieved its rulership from the devil is also used by God to achieve God's purposes. The Harlot that sits on masses of people, that had formed an unholy alliance with the beast (Human Political rulers), is destroyed by the same Beast she had been in colaboration at the instigation of God. God puts it into the hearts of these rulers to carry out his will even though their rulership power comes from the Devil.

The bible is clear that the wild beast (human rulership) recieves its power and authority from the Devil but God has ultimate power and even though the wild beast is under the direct control and influence of Satan, God can still use human rulers to achieve his purposes. It is within his power to do so.



The fact that God uses the beast to accomplish his will still did not mean that the wild beast was not to be destroyd.

God turns around and destroys this wild beast (Human Rulers) and everything associated with human rulership, including their military

To start with lets examine bible references to Human rulership in Daniel.
Daniel Chap: 7:2-8 describes four beasts coming out of the sea. [color=#550000]A Lion, Bear, Leopard, and a huge fearsome beast with ten horns. Dan:7:17 clearly identify these beasts as representing Human rulers on earth.[/color] In a second vision Daniel in Chap 8:3-8, 20-25 sees a two-horned ram that is struck down by a He-goat with a Great horn (which was later replaced by 4 horns). [color=#990000]These creatures along with the horns were clearly explained to Daniel as representing human rulership (representing the dual world power Medo Persia and Greece).

Now moving along to Revelation.
In Revelation chap 12:7-9 identifies the Dragon as Satan the Devil.
R[color=#770077]ev 13:1,2 describes a Wild beast with Seven heads and ten horns also ascending out of the sea. The beast also posseses the Characteristic of a Leopard, Bear, a Lion, and possessed Ten horns (The very same characteristics of the beasts that represented human rulership in the vision shown to Daniel). And The Dragon, Satan gives the seven headed beast Rulership[/color]. Rev16:10-16 shows that action taken by God would result in the Dragon and The wild beast acting to gather the all the political rulers of the world in opposition to God. Rev 13:11-15 describes the emergence of a two horned beast which acts with the authority of the Dragon and will give breath to the image of the seven headed wild beast which was set up by humans. The image of the wild beast now go on to take an active part in the rulership of the earth, mislead the Earths inhabitants and have them follow it. Rev: Chap 17:2-10 reveals the identity of the wild beast with seven heads and ten horns. It calls it kings or mountains (Mountains and Kings have been used in the bible to refer to governmental powers. Compare Jeremiah 51:24,25, Dan 2:34,35,44,45) and also refers to the horns on the wild beast as Rulers who would unite to fight against God’s King Christ (compare Rev 16: 14,16 Rev19:17,18) Clearly The Seven headed ten horned Beast that had been given Power and Authority by the Devil represents world rulership and political system under the control of the devil.

After the destruction of the Harlot (whose identity scares Tayo D ) by the Beasts., Rev 19:15-21describes the destruction of the wild beast, human rulers and their military forces at the hands of God's king then rightful rulership is given back to Christ.

Since the wild beast and its image refer to Human rulership or the human political system, the Dragon grants this wild beast its rulership and authority


This completely harmonizes with other passages of the bible [color=Black]that clearly identify the Devil as the ruler of the world
[/color]
Luke 4:6, 1st John 5:19, John 14:30,

John 12:31, John 16:11

2nd Corinthians 4:4

This discussion is really more extensive than this. Il come and give a few more postings later in the day before i log out of this discussion

im back now.

Let me answer your question once and for all.

You can use your Bible and follow. Any person who has been following this debate should pa close attention

Guyy il post those scriptures for you dont worry. (it will be a long post and im a lil busy now) but i want you to answer this question straight. Dont bring up the issue of where the passages are. IL give them to you

You cant seem to answer those simple questions. Address these questions seperately

1 The devil is the ruler of the world. He controls the political realm and ultimate control over the wordly political system (Rev 16: 14'16). He did not forcefully take that power from God. For him to be the ruler of the earth he has to be given that authority. Who gave the devil the authority to rule the world and in what manner?

2 When i contrasted Jeremiah 13: 1,2to other scriptureswhich says God planted the wicked?. What does that mean and in what sense did God plant the Wicked?


Thirdly you are wrongly corelating the scripture in Daniel to the one one in Romans to say that God approves of his true servants participating in politics. That is totally wrong. Il address that when i come back

Il come back when i finish doing some of what im bugged down with now.

Answer those questions though

And Stop saying that to defend the church.


When the apostles were asked to cease from talking about the Kingdom of Christ, they were clear on that. They would obey God as ruler rather than men. They respected Caesar enough to obey him as long as it did not conflict with divine instruction(though they did not participate in their politics)

And take the question ive been asking out of the way so we can now get to discussing the Fact that Satan does give rulership to Man.

put a yes or no unless you are to start arguing that the devil is not the ruler of the world.

Regarding Christian attitudes to Goverments, i have already stated it here.

Christians are to obey the Goverment, Pay there taxes and Obey Caesar's laws that do not conflict with Divine instruction.

Those Goverments are in place because God wants them to be in place. If not, they wont be there.

But answer that question.

The bible makes it crystal clear that the Devil is the ruler of the world and he controls world leaders enough to put them in opposition to God.

Who actively grants him that power or those Satan rule the world thru God's permission?

Guy you are funny

You are running around
So all authority is not Granted actively by GOd?

Answer the question.

The bible says that the Devil is the ruler of the world.

Did God grant him that power Actively.

Simple

And guy, that same question that uve been bogously repeating like it was some insurance againt what God has promised to destroy, After i show you that the Devil Can give Rulership, YOU WILL HAVE TO GO BACK AND ADDRESS all the many points that i have raised from the bible that clearly shows human rulership is not for true Christians and the harlotry of Christiandom (your so called Christianity)

Christiandoms rotten works have found her out but thats to come later. We have to finish your own argument since u keep repeating that there is no authority except from God as if it was an excuse to meddle in wordly politics

ANSWER THE QUESTION IN THE LAST POSTS GUY

And whatever you answer, you have to indicate WHAT YOU MEAN BY ACTIVELY GRANTING?. DO YOU IN ANYWAY MEAN BY THAT THAT GOD APPROVES OF IT, ENDORSES IT OR ALLOWS HIS TRUE SERVANTS TO PARTICIPATE IN IT?

YOU HAVE BEEN POINTLESSLY REPEATING THAT VERSE OF THE BIBLE AS IF IT WAS A VALIDATORY POINT, IGNORING ALL THE HALLMARKS OF TRUE CHRISTIANITY AND FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN EXAMPLES IN THE PROCESS AND GOD'S OWN SACRED PLAN AND WORDS

Now answer those questions in the previous post and the one i raised ABOUT WHAT YOU MEAN BY ACTIVELY GRANTING HUMAN RULERSHIP .

If you answer thEse questions, (then il really surprise since you say you don't know) by showing scriptures that clearly indicate that the devil does indeed give Rulership

And please don't post your question again Il answer you comprehensively when you give me an answer to this question

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule)

So whoever granted the devil rulership and control over the world also grants humans rulership in the same manner and under the control of the devil.
If God actively grants the devil rulership over the world, so does he to humans, if the devil is ruling the world with his permission, so are human goverments


So question remains

The devil is the ruler of the world and controls the worlds political realm and is ruining the earth. DOES GOD ACTIVELY GRANT THE DEVIL RULERSHIP OVER THE WORLD?


This question begs for an answer. No deviating, no changing course answer this question straight out.

stimulus:
@sage,

Nope, I didn't twist words in that text; but offered to show that your twisting and denying the same thing about God planting WICKEDNESS was not in those verses.

I have carefully read through your "self searching questions" - and for all of that, WHERE is the VERSE that teaches that the devil EVER GAVE rulership to ANYONE?? Why is the verse still missing from your posts up until now, sage??

At least, I gave no less than 6 verses showing clearly that GOD and none else GIVES rulership to whomsoever He wishes (Dan. 4:32 again for reminder). How is it that you lack the gentlemanliness to offer a verse for the very opposite as you claim??

Guy the Bible categorically states that the Devil gives rulership with great authority. The Devil can give Rulership. It is 100% within his Jurisdiction. Il give you the Bible passages.

I just wanted you to see that even using your own argument, your theory that God actively grants human rulership is Flawed and baseless.

Come back and answer the question.

You have been emptily quoting the same verse over and over again as if it will in anyway negate the fact that

1 Satan rules the world

2 God will destroy human rulership and those in it

3 Christians should be separate from the world
and all the other points that i have made from the bible

Uve been emptily quoting that same Roman's 13:1,2 and repeating this verse as if it is an excuse to participate in what God has condemned.

When i listed some of the disgusting acts of the church due to their deviating from the neutrality and teachings practiced by Jesus and his apostles you had no excuse for it. You had no answer to all the Biblical references that makes Christians keeping separate from the world a must.

All you did as a reponse to all the reasoning from the bible that i put out was to keep repeating the same empty question as if it validated anything.

Well the answer to your question. The answer is yes. THE DEVIL CAN HAND POWER AND GIVE RULERSHIP. 100% WITHIN HIS JURISDICTION TO DO THAT. ITS IN BLACK AND WHITE IN THE BIBLE

I just gave you time to choke in your own arguments which have no biblical basis. I went along with you in your own reasoning to your that even with your line of argument, it still holds no water.

So im going to post what i asked again

The passages where the Devil gives Rulership is in Revlation. Il give you the passages but first answer this question which you have been dodging

You keep saying that God ACTIVELY grants power to people rather than allowing a rulership positionn by his PERMISSION ok

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is ACTIVELY Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule)

So whoever granted the devil rulership and control over the world also grants humans rulership in the same manner and under the control of the devil.
If God ACTIVELY grants the devil rulership over the world, so does he to humans, if the devil is ruling the world with his permission, so are human goverments

Respond specifically to this.

I have a reason for asking you to respond to this simple question.

You keep bringing up Rom 13 1,2 that all authority is from God and Granted by God. Ok Agreed.

The devil is the ruler of the world and controls the worlds political realm and is ruining the earth. DOES GOD ACTIVELY GRANT THE DEVIL RULERSHIP OVER THE WORLD?

If you answer this particular question, once i provide you with the passage of the bible where Satan does assign rulership and then il give you my final remarks as to why Human Rulership is no place for a true christian

@Stimulus Dont twist words

Jer 13 1,2 says that GOD PLANTED THE WICKED not planted people that later turned wicked. (Thats besides the point)

And throughout this thread uve been asking the same question, well the answer is

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule)

So whoever granted the devil rulership and control over the world also grants humans rulership in the same manner and under the control of the devil.
If God actively grants the devil rulership over the world, so does he to humans, if the devil is ruling the world with his permission, so are human goverments
and during your Bed time ask yourselves these self searching questions

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule) {its a self searching question, but it also represents my final answer to Stimulus as to who grants authority to rule, the question he keeps repeating in all the thread}

So called Christians have ended up killing themselves in millions and engaging in strifes and contentions due to involvement in the nationalistic politics of todays world in direct contradiction to the example Jesus and the true Early apostles did. Where would participation in politics leave someone who really wants to be a true christian and follow the footsteps of Jesus? Where would there primary alligiances lie? To the Christian brotherhood or to the politics of the nations? Would the millions of so called christians that have killed each other sincerely be said of to have

1 Put the interest of God's kingdom first?

2 Shown love for their so called brothers

3 Kept separate from wordly affairs as required of them?

And lastly where would participation in what God promises to destroy really leave somebody who wants to be a true christian?

These are self searching questions.

@ Stimulus let me leave you with one more thing

My raising the issue of Jer 13:1,2 was to contrast it with Psalms 37: 9-11

Jeremiah says God planted the wicked, Psalms says God will do away with the wicked. He planted the wicked, he will destroy them

Now does God really plant wicked people so that they can flourish?

And when i asked the question Who is the ruler of the world and the one controlling the earth's political affairs i got no answer?

If you can answer those two questions especially the second one in one word based on the scriptures then your question is answred.

Ciao

and one more thing b/4 i leave

It touches me to see how much damage Christiandom has done .

The example of Jesus and First century Christians on political Neutrality and non participation in politics has been ignored

True worship of God always warned people about involvement with what God plans to completely destroy

Christiandom on the other hand encourages people to participate in it. They engage in the politics of the nations and kill fellow so called christians as a result of their not heeding Jesus command to be separate from the world.

Its so sad. But i guess the bible was right when it said that Satan is misleading the entire inhabited earth .

People now want a backing for taking part in something God warns he will surely destroy.

Well what can i say. When i sit back and look at all this, all i can do is

Well to other people

you all would do well to asks yourselves

Who really rules the world? What controls the political realms of this worlds rulership.


im finished with this thread for now

Anybody that thinks that God is in charge of this world's political affairs should carry on deluding themselves.

The bible has clearly shown the devil is in charge.

At least nobody so far has denied that God would destroy human rulership along with everything associated with it. The warning is there for all Choose for yourselves

Continue decieving yourself.

Satan was granted authority to rule the earth and control all human political realms

,Political Neutrality and Separation from the world a must for true christians, is now against God's orders. Hear yourself.

Its funny how you dodge the fact that

1 The Devil is the ruler of the world

2 All wordly Goverments are under his control (he has enough control over them to incite them into opposition of God and hence their destruction Rev 16: 14 to 16)

3 All faithful and true early christians (including Jesus) Rejected and kept away from human politics

4 God clearly intends to destroy Human Rulership.

5 Christiandoms works have exposed her for what she is

Your logic is so flawed it stinks

Rulership was Granted to Humans by God you say
by the same vein then
Rulership and Control of the earth has also been granted by God to the Devil and the devil controls all human Rulership and true Christians should advoid it.

r

I can't stop laughing.

The Judgement and destruction of all human rulership along with the spirit ruler of the world and all those who participate in human rulership has already been stated by the bible.

Its is your prerogative. Nobody can make that decision for you. Participate in it if you want. The church can mire itself in all the politics that it wants

the path of true christianity is clear, the same path chosen by early christians.

Total Neutrality with regards to all human political systems orchastrated by the real ruler of the world, Satan.

Seperation from the world (with the realisation that the worlds political and military desires will pass away, dealt with by God)

Realising that the only hope of man is God's Kingdom

The bible has stated that. Participate in what God has promised to destroy without fail. Its your choice, its the choice of hte Church, its the choice of all humans. Do what you wish

Period

Hope no more Grammer problems. . My Primary school principal wont be pleased

The authority excercised by the wicked is also Granted by God in the same sense as the authority Satan and Human rulers excercise. No creature has any authority unless it is granted by God, from the Devil to human rulers to wicked ones, with the worlds affairs beign directed by Satan.

The question remains.

Should true Christians participate in Wordly Politics?

We aint debating Grammer here

For example Psalms 3:9,10 says God intends to destroy the wicked ones

Jer says he plants the wicked ones and lets them flourish.

Its obvious that the bible is saying the wicked accomplish what they do due to God allowing them to do that.

Let us say maybe if Grammer is the problem we are having let us rephrase it this was

The authority that Satan has to control world affairs is granted him by God, so is that of human rulers, who are under the control of Satan. ie God granted the rulership of the world to the Devil and in the same vein the authority of human rulership is also granted by God but is under the control of the Devil. That does not change the fact that God would destroy both the devil and Human rulership

Now with that aside. The question is

Should true Christians participate in something that God fully intends to destroy. Should christians imitate the Early christians and stay away form something that is under the influence and control of the devil and preach about the only Kingdom that is Mankind's hope or should they participate in something that God will without fail destory along with everything associated with it?

Thats the question this thread is really asking

U are the one deviating.

This topic is strictly Christians and Partcipation in politics.

Should Christians be involved in something God plans to destroy? Thats the question this thread is trying to tackle.


The devil controls human affairs because God has granted him that Authority. If God does not want to allow him to do that, he would not be able to, but since he does, the authority has been given him by God and by extension, other wordly Govts under Satan's control. The right to rulership belongs to God undoubtedly but he grants satan that Authority to dictate human affairs. He could stop that in an instant but he doesnt. He leaves Satan to control world affairs till his time to take action is due. Thats the point im trying to get across

There is no debating of this nor of the fact that God will destroy human rulership and those involved in it.

No human rulership would have any authority if not by God's permission.

Satan would not have the control he has if not by God's permission.

Wickedness and Injustice would not exist if it did not have God's permission
Neither will sickness and death

God plans to do away with all these things in his own due time.


well guys what can i say

I have shown you all i can from the bible. What else can i say?

@Stimulus

If you followed my posts from before you will see where i said exactly what you are saying.

Christians are to obey the law, pay taxes and follow ceasar as long his commands did not try to go against God's command.

So any true Christian would not be disruptive but would pay his taxes and obey the law in general.

Pilates authority to kill Jesus was granted him from above simply b/cos God allowed him to do it. If he did not have God's permission.

So was Nebucadnezzers authority.

But control of world affairs is ultimately in the hand of Satan

Satan's authority has been granted by God otherwise if God objected to Satan having that control, Satan would not have it.

Pilate and Nebuchadnezzar had Permission granted to them and were allowed to do what they did by God. In that sense, all authority that they had was from God. Pilate could not execute Jesus if that authority had not been granted by God. Nebuchadnezzar accomplishments which he became excessively proud were on God's permission. If God had not permitted it, he would not have had those.

Satan is the ruler of the world and controls its affairs because God permits and allows him to do that. The authority and control that Satan has is by God's allowance and Permission. The same is applicable to human goverments. Their authority and Jurisdiction exists only due to God's permission. God has granted Satan and Human Govts the permission to rule and act the way that they please

Also God can stop the wordly Govts from doing anything he does not want

But he allows and gives them permission to do all they do. They cant do that without his permission. Guys please this is crystal clear.

The fact that he permits Human Goverments to operate and exist does not change the plan he has for them, ie their total destruction along with all the other things God gives permission to other things to exist but he will also destroy those things like i listed above.

When Pilate told Jesus that he had power over his life, Jesus told Pilate that he had no power unless it was granted from above. Jesus clearly showed that Pilate could execute him simply because the permission had been granted by God. If God did not want to permit it, he would not. The same thing is applicable to Nebuchadnezzar. All his accomplishments would not have been there if God did not grant him the permission to.

God grants wickedness, injustice,evil and other things permission to exist.

The devil would not be in control of human affairs if God did not permit it. The devil would not be misleading the entire world if God did not permit it.

Human govts can be destroyd in an instant by God (which he will eventually do) but meanwhile they exist due to his permission.

God simply gives human govts permission to exist.

But in the Bible he clearly states what his plans are for it. DESTRUCTION. The same fate that would befall wickedness, injustice and all

were you not the one that posted this

1Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously? 2THOU HAST PLANTED THEM, yea, they have taken root: they grow, yea, they bring forth fruit: thou art near in their mouth, and far from their reins.

God could take out wicked people along with there wickedness in an instant. But he permits them to go on with there acts. There would be no wickedness on earth if God did not permit it. Wickedness exists due to God's permission of it until his own due time

God can take out all human rulership now (which he eventually will) but he permits them to continue till his time to destroy them comes along. Human rulership will not be here if not by God's permission, the same way wickedness is here due to his permission.

Jer 13 1,2 clearly states God planted the wicked. You posted it. Read it again

Nah Guys.

God planted the wicked and the wicked bring forth wickedness. That passage did not say God planted people who later became wicked. It says God planted the wicked (and by extension wicked people commit wicked acts)

Yeah can you explain why Jeremiah would say God has planted the wicked?

i am waiting for an answer. Why would God plant the wicked and wickedness