₦airaland Forum

Where are the Femnists

Oya Weselyn A reply

I once told a westerner about Juju and he asked
If Juju was real why

1 Has non of it been independently verified

2 Things like bullet bouncing off people not recorded in like say guinness book of records

3 How come it never works in front of foreigners

4 Blood money does it produce real or fake dollars?

5 How come people who for eg want to harm Pres Bush cant get Juju to work for them since i said it could be used to harm people

6 how come Africa does not use it to get rich

7 How many sports games does African nations do well in and why dont they use it to cast spell on other nations

8 How was the white man able to pillage Africa and no harm came to them

9 How come the military in nations in Africa dont use it to stand up militarily to western nations

10 What proof of juju do you have





i  remember only these ones for now but i must admit i was like  

Nigerians are pathetic

Eating all kinds of garbage thrown at the masses.

Let them try this kind of nonsense in the States



A persons personal beliefs cannot be used to stop others from getting an education.

Whats next

Igbos have a tendency towards criminality and should not be allowed on campus

I posted one last week i think, but looks like Seun deleted it


A man in that one blamed not circumsising women for the present state of society and concluded it by beign hypocritic and saying he wanted a circumsised woman as a wife and one not circumsised as a mistress . He says making love to the uncircumsised woman is better coz she responds but he still wants his wife circumsised

Copied from Vanguard


http://www.vanguardngr.com/articles/2002/columns/human/ha31072007.html


David, (45), a banker revealed that he was planning to take his two-year old daughter for circumcision at the end of the year. He explains why, and gives insight into some methods used in the olden days to keep the chastity of young girls. Read on:

The level of development of girls is so advanced that they are capable of doing things that their parents can’t even imagine. A friend of mine is dating one secondary school girl on the side because he has a girlfriend he intends to marry whom we all know. He is a divorcee. He told us that the girl is better in bed than his fiancé. The way this girl dresses alone is enough to convince you that she must be something else. And to make matters worse, she was the one that threw herself at him by force. And my friend said he was forced to accept her advances so that she will not ridicule him among her peers in the neighbourhood. And just when he thought he would just take her to bed a couple of times and dump her, he is the one that is doing the chasing around now.

The other day, three young girls were discussing at the back of my window at home. The oldest of them couldn’t have been more than 14-15 years. I was shocked at what was coming out of these children’s mouths. Two of them were trying to persuade the third on the need to allow herself to be deflowered at barely twelve years. That it is no longer fashionable to be a virgin and that when other young girls discover, they will make fun of her, and call her a bush girl. Can you imagine that?
Recently in our neighbourhood, a 17-year- old girl just gave birth to a baby for their Mallam. We heard through gossips of course, that the girl had been engaged in sexual activities right from age eight. Her teacher was their houseboy who lived with them for nine years.

According to the story, the girl confessed that the houseboy used to do it with her every blessed (or is it cursed) day. Immediately he left, she descended on the gate man because she could not hold her desires anymore. The family I’m talking about is a very rich one, in fact, the father is a celebrity of sort. These are people we used to look at as being above board with the hope that one will be like them some day. You can imagine the disgrace she has brought to the family, because she has had the gate man’s baby. Naturally, the man has been sent packing, but that doesn’t erase the fact that the baby is his own. It is a matter of time before the man will return for his child.

This is why I think that apart from teaching them how to keep one’s self-respect, there is need for a kind of precautionary measure to be put in place. That was why I wanted to go and have her circumcised, but now that I am better enlightened about the health implications, I will not do it again. I don’t have a clear cut idea what I will do yet, but there are other methods available.

In the olden days, there were other methods that were used on young girls to ensure they were not messed up before marriage too. It included the use of juju and since that too has its own demerits and it’s not even advisable in this day and age, I still don’t know yet. But I know that I will not go for circumcision again.

Can you explain some of these methods? The methods? I can’t say all of them, but I know of the one that they will put padlock in place, not physically. The padlock will be kept somewhere, and it’s actual mission is to stop anything entering the young girl. Until the padlock is unlocked by the parents or those who know about it, the girl remains a virgin. Another is to wear beads or cord around her waist, some call it Bebedi. I think it is now in vogue again among ladies. You see the beads peeping out of their waist bands when they wear skirts or a pair of trousers. Some even have bebedi made from gold or other expensive trinkets. But the bebedi I’m talking about is not like these ones.

This one is medicinal, it has mystical powers. While the girl is wearing it, nobody can get there unless he knows the password to break it. There is a very good motive behind most of the things our forefathers did. You know that such a method can help in the prevention of rape in the society now that the thing is so rampant and women are always so helpless. To make matters worse, it is difficult so seek redress for rape. I know that personally, I will just kill anybody that does that to my daughter, unless she can not identify the person or people. So, you see that this circumcision thing too must have its own merits.

In essence, what I’m trying to say is that there are immense benefits in the culture and traditions of our people, it is because we do not take time to examine them that we end up with all these mix ups. The western ideas have bastardised everything and this is not good. Even the people we are copying have their own cultures and traditions and they are not going to condemn them for our sake.

I would prefer a situation where we will sift the good from the bad and make use of the good ones in this modern times. This circumcision thing we have talked about now is very good, at least health wise.

Now that I know it has grave health implications, I can decide that I will not do it for my daughter. But there is nothing wrong in the other two or three examples I have explained to you. Nobody will get hurt as long as they obey the rules. But, people will shy away from it because they say it is juju, it is archaic and it is against religious practices.

Well, what do we then expect from a society that is not being guided by any rules, there are no checks to stop people from doing evil, or immoral acts. And these are the reasons why the crime rate in the western world are so high. Once you commit a crime and luck shines on you such that you are not caught, you can get away with even murder. And even when you are caught, they take you to the courts where the court processes can take eternity. At the end of the day, the culprit may still walk away free. So, where are the checks and balances.

There is nothing one can say right now that you will not have something negative to say about it. So I will just keep quiet. Honestly, I will not seek the circumcision alternative again. I have told you, there are other methods one can use to make sure that a girl child stays clean and pure until her wedding night. I will still be searching for the right one to adopt for my daughter.

Siji (54), a businessman says it is unheard of where he comes from. He has this to say:
Female circumcision is done almost in all cultures, but where I come from, they do not circumcise women. The Ijebus do not circumcise their women. Just as it is unheard of in some cultures that a woman is not circumcised, so it is unheard of in Ijebuland that you should circumcise women. Perhaps, that is why people say derogatory things about the chastity of Ijebu women. They say the Ijebu woman is wayward and can’t be satisfied by one man.

Some say that any man who marries an Ijebu woman becomes her slave. They even say that the Ijebus have a lot of mystical powers, that they use them for their female children to succeed in their marriages. But this is not so because they forget that the Ijebu community also comprises of men. why would any sane thinking group of people, empower its women to oppress the men? Or are they saying that Ijebu women don’t marry Ijebu men? These are all lies. Any Ijebu woman who does not know how to entertain and care for her man is not a true Ijebu woman. And the same goes for the Ijebu man. They are more like their Lagos counterpart in terms of social life. They love to party and just live good generally. So, no one will take kindly to acts that will affect the peace of mind and enjoyment of the other person. Perhaps, that is why Ijebu people do not circumcise their daughters. And if they do so in some parts of Ijebu land, I ma yet to hear of it.

So what is your take on the practice of circumcision? Naturally, the un-circumcised women are better than circumcised ones. I have read that there is something special about the power of the clitoris. God knows why He put it there. If it is not good, He would not have placed it there and in such a position too. So, personally, I think it is good. I am pleased with myself and my woman when we ake love and I am able to satisfy her. What is the joy of making love if the woman will not enjoy it? It is as if you are raping the woman. And if she is not responding to my efforts, I get turned off.

Personally, I don’t like frigid women, they deflate a man’s ego. Many of them just lie down there waiting for you to finish the job, and I can tell you from experience that there is no enjoyment in that. That is why I am always amused when I hear stories about men forcing or intimidating women into sexual affairs. How do you go to bed with a women who has no feelings for you? Something must be wrong with either of them. But because human beings are complex creatures, for the man, the instinct to subdue the female may be overwhelming. For me, I don’t like it. I am Ijebu, my wife is Ijebu, so my children cannot be circumcised.

Where are the Femnists on this topic


And guys do you know what

Thinking about it, whoever told African Men that a Virgin was the best thing that could happen to them? Meeting one could turn out to be a nightmare in a man's life. Her virginity has nothing to do with who she would turn out to be as a person. After 10 seconds and she is no longer a virgin she could still make your life a misery all the days of your life and send you to an early grave if you married the wrong person.
By then you would be wishing you never ran into her

ThiefOfHearts:
Hopefully they both end up "disvirgin-ing" you with a spiky Love Machine up your rear.

At thief, this is one of the funniest things ive heard all month

and from a neutral standpoint

@Weslyn A, Micheline and other Femnists

THERE IS NO EQUALITY IN THE WEST (unlike what most believe). WHAT YOU HAVE ARE IDEAS AND LAWS BASED ON PATRIACHACY

I don't think there is equality in nature or any culture for that matter when it comes to the matter of the sexes.
I think nature made the sexes complementary not competitors. One sex is more suited to certain things and the other sex more suited to others.


Infact, feminism in itself looks like it does have harmful effects to women.


The above is  a hypothesis. Ask me and il tell you why it could be so.

I want to ask these questions with an open mind

Why is it that Females who want equality with Men (esp the femnists) still on a general level (ie there are exceptions)

1 Want a man that is bigger in size than them (Non seems to want a man they are bigger/Taller than or eqaul to in size )

2 Generally prefer a man with a bigger bank account than them.
etc etc

@Okababa and Olowo tree and all in general

Beware of the leaven of the scribes and the Pharisees, men like them who through their many man made traditions and teachings impose a heavy burden upon their followers.
The yoke of Jesus is very light and tender and very refreshing, not burdensome.

You all have been set free by the ransom of the Lord Jesus, STOP BEIGN SLAVES TO A MAN/MEN

And for comments like these

okababa:
any church, person or pastor that is not in total agreement with pastor kumuyi/deeper life is not from God and will go to hell fire if they fail to repent.
As for me, pastor Kumuyi is the only man of God in africa and possibly the world. Also note that you don't have to agree with this statement as the bible say that whosoever will be a friend of God will be an enemy of the world so , that a lot of people hate deeperlife or pastor Kumuyi is enough confirmation that the man is realy from God

People should keep decieving themselves. They should keep on telling themselves this as consolation.


Anybody that has any idea of what christianity entails would do just as the Christians in Beroa did and were commended by Paul.

Stop enslaving yourselves to man made doctrines

So far, claims of Ist Timoty, nor Ist Peter have lended no hand to arguments that a woman can become an Overseer.

There is nothing in the scriptures that allows room for Women Overseers.[color=#990000][/color]

All these arguments would be meaningless if we dont first accept this points from the bible

1 Overseers are to exercise (note this has nothing to do with usurping ) authority over all within the congregation.

Women cannot exercise that same authority. (This is not a question of usurping, but cannot exercise the same authority that Overseers do)

2 the work of Overseers leaves no room at all for a person who are not allowed to, or are restricted when it comes to issues of Shepharding, exercising authority, teaching, issuing directives etc, THINGS WOMEN IN THE CONGREGATION ARE RESTRICTED ON.

Apart from the fact that this passage you have been quoting as if it had an atom of support for your claims lists some duties women do within the congregation (Non of which suggests serving as an Overseer)


Your claim that some bible translations mistranslated the point that Paul was trying to make and suggesting that those verses ment not dominating but could suggest that Both Men and Women can all be Overseers is completely Flawed and Spurious at best

Because, in those same verses

1) Women are asked to learn in Submission
Overseers take the lead in the congregation

2)Women cannot deliberate publicly on Congregational issues
Overseers deliberate on and take decisions for the congregation, and the congregation follows their lead.

3) Women are not allowed to teach men
Overseers are mandated to teach the whole congregation, including Men

4) Women discuss congregational issues with their husbands.
.
Overseers issue directives to the whole congregation.

5) Overseers [color=#990000]excercise authority and shephard the whole flock. (its not a question of usurping. Women CANNOT exercise that same authority)[[/color]color=#990000][/color]


So any claim that those verses somehow was suggesting that women could serve as Overseers with Men but should not usurp it but that the point was misrepresented is wrong.

@Sister Pilgrim, you have been quoting this chapter again and again

can you please tell me how any of the above support your point of women overseers? (bearing in mind examples of duties that Paul listed women perform within the congregation. No role of Overseer or even anything remotely near that)?

Because obviously Paul had advised Timothy on how to deal with everybody in the congregation, older men, older women, younger men and younger women in verse 1 and 2

Later, in verse 17 he refered to the Overseers in the congregation which would include spiritually mature Men both Young and Old. (That would obviously include Men like Timothy who were of a young age but spiritually mature)

1 Timothy 5
Advice About Widows, Elders and Slaves
1Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
3Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7Give the people these instructions, too, so that no one may be open to blame. 8If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

9No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband,[a] 10and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

11As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. 14So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

16If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need.

17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,"[b] and "The worker deserves his wages."[c] 19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

21I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

22Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

23Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

24The sins of some men are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them. 25In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not cannot be hidden.

2 @ Pilgrim i dont think you understand what overseers are and what they are required to do in the congregation.

3 Old convenant regulations are not binding on the new. I cite examples from the old testament because of
A. Some people on this forum claiming that women excllusion from position of overseer = sexism. I cited examples of were God excluded women from certain positions in the past.

B Some lessons could be found in those passages that is stll valuable.


4 And your claim on Ist Tim 5:1 il come back tommorow and look into that

@Sis Pilgrim

I appreciate your taking time to make this debate continue. I like the way you handle a debate for the most part

But to show you the futility of your arguments in ths particular case and why i feel this debate is becoming pointless

1 You have repeatedly based your argument on this
Quote from Pilgrim
Please sage, don't put words in the apostle Paul's mouth. He never said that a woman was not to "EXERCISE" authority over a man. Rather, he said that a woman should not "USURP" authority over the man - big difference here.

"Exercising authority" and "usurping authority" are not the same things; and please don't make them sound like the same so that you can make apostle Paul say what he did not say!



1 Cor 14: 33-35

33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints[/b], 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


1 Tim 2:11,12
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 [b]I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.


Yes the apostle does TEACH that a woman CANNOT have authority over a man

So sister pls stop accusing me of setting a standard

I am not apostle Paul

ThiefOfHearts:
Hello sage

Hey @ Thief

How you de? Im just de hang in there. Kind of having a lil bit of a stress ful summer in DC. Howz the big apple . I just dropped a comment for you in the religion section. Too much wahala there though.

Good to see were still kool though despite the whole religion commotion

Whatz up with you this summer anywayz

Now the above was all a biblical discussion.Most women in here might think im sexist and narrow minded.

On the contrary im one of the most open minded guys you can ever come accross. (ie why for my first 1 1/2 years on nairaland i advoided the religious section. Too much blind arguments and pointless debates.)

TV01's concise manner persuaded me to start posting here. (Even though he would disappear after drawing me into some merry go round )


@Thief

You probably dislike me a lot more now. That Chauvunistic, sexist goat you will probably be wondering . To even imagine i thought he was cool at any point


well the truth is even if I think some things in the bible are a bit odd or even outrageous, non of us is in a position to re-edit it to suit our inclinations and thoughts.


If we were in a secular agument, then it would be different, way different

So my point is this.


The apostle Paul made it crystal clear that

IN NO CONGREGATION OF TRUE WORSHIPERS OF GOD CAN A WOMAN EXERCISE AUTHORITY OVER OR TEACH A MAN

Only compliance to this standard would bring God's approval.

Regardless of how Me or TV01 or anybody else sees this passages of the bible, nobody can reconstruct it to mean something else or try to use to bible to support a contradictory view

So Biblically the bottom line to this debate is this

True Christians comply to biblical standards
Others do what they like and try to use the bible to justify a stand that contradicts the bible

The answer to the above can be seen as

Divine Principle and arraingment.

Regardless of good intentions, good abilities, neccesity etc Divine principle remains the same.

For eg In Uzaahs case, God had decreed that anybody apart from a certain group of people who touched the ark would die.
Regardless of Uzahh having good intentions or not in trying to save the ark he was going to die for overstepping his place in God's arraingment.

Saul having a good motive ie to save God's people was not the point either. He overstepped his place also in God's divine arraingment and had to pay for it.

@ all

The problem with debates like this is that the people all agreed to use the bible as their standard but now want to water down some parts of it that they dont like to suit their own agenda.

If this was a secular debate, then that would be completely different.

We can then measure merits and demerits whys and hows etc.

But when you claim the bible as your standard you do not question its stand on anything.
Compliance to it is what is required for those who want to.


The only reason im saying the above is that from a human and secular standpoint certain Divine standards have no answer and might even seem unreasonable. For eg

1 What made the family of Moses (Aaron and his sons) the only ones that are fit to enter into the presence of the ark?

2 What made Moses the only one fit to see the presence of God

3 Why is it that well qualified Men like Korah, Dathan and Abiram who were not trying to insult God but felt that Moses was presumpteously hoarding everything for only his family and not allowing them to do more in the service of God were executed by Him?
From a secular standpoint was Korah's gain saying wrong and did Moses stand not look presumpteous?

4 Why would God appoint only males to Serve as Priests, Levites and Kings?
Can women not also lead a nation, lead in worship? Do women not posses the same capabilities to do the same things?

5 Why would God strike down Uzaah for trying to save the ark from falling off to the bewilderment of a whole nation ?

6 Why is Family headship giving only to men? Do women not possses the ability to head a house?

7 Why would God judge Saul (Who was not trying to deliberately insult God) so harshly for acting to save his people who were almost beign overrun?
What Saul did was it not reasonable from a human standpoint? (Whic man would just stand and watch and see his whole house go up in flames without acting?)

The reasons why the holy spirit would not appoint women is crystal clear (A similar reason as to why Jesus chose only Male apostles even with committed and faithful Women all around him) was

Divine arraingment.

A woman overseer would have to have taught and exercised authority over men (In the same vein that both the apostles and first century overseers exercised authority over Men, Women and Children). This is incompactible with the will of God for His congregated people as expressed in His inspired writing.


@ Sister Pilgrim

Come to look at it though.

Godly women like those faithful disciples of Jesus and the fist century female disciples

Never agitated to become apostles, never claimed to have the same authority as the apostles, never highlighted the short comings of Jesus male apostles and disciples to make a case for their own inclusion (what a man can do, a woman can also do mentality), never sought to claim a position of oversight which the holy spirit did not leave open to them, did not misquote the account of Joel and Deborah to justify what God's holy spirit does not approve of etc


They recognized their place in divine arraingment and complied to it.
They had God's blessing in full measure

The example i made with marriage is this

Gen 2:24

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh

Ephisians 5:28

In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body.

1st Corintians 7:3

The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

Ephesians 6:1,2

1Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2"Honor your father and mother"—[/b]which is the first commandment with a promise



Should somebody make claims that this means that the two are one and can play the sam roles.

Even with the above scriptures, other passages compliment this by showing that

[b]The Man exercises headship over a woman and the woman is not allowed to exercise headship over a man in the family.

Headship in the family with the male mate present is only Preserved for the Male


(I am bewildered by arguments raised by some people here claiming that a male only Overseer appointment would mean a male only world and would be discrimintory and sexist.

1 How come a male only headship arraingment (ie with the male mate beign present) in the family is not accused of the same thing by these same people.

2 How come a woman can exercise authority over, instruct, teach, and preside over their husbands in the congregation when they cannot at home?

@Pilgrim

Bible passages are complimentary, not contradictory. The apostle Paul could not have been inspired by God to contradict himself

If there was any room for Female Overseers, the bible would automatically contradict itself.

(Ive already listed this things b/4)

1 Overseers are mandated to teach, instruct, preside and have authority over Men, Women and Children

2 Women, under divine standards cannot exercise authority over or teach Men (The primary commision of overseers) within the congregation (This is an unchangable divine standard that cannot be watered down)

3 A person not teaching, shepharding or exercising authority over the whole Congregation ie Men, Women and Childeren is NOT an overseer (They could be given other responsibilities) and since women are not approved by God to do that, then they cannot be Overseers Simple

The bogus use of a word that can both be used to represent a person advanced in age, as well a person holding an office and other foms of usage would not change an already set divine standard neither would it contradict the rest of the bible, neither would Paul contradict himself.

This topic looks retarded from the time i saw it. Was not worth spending time on

But why must i comment on everything AC Milan related?

Seems like i need to check into rehab for MilanManiaism .

This is getting so bad i cant even distinguish b/w the sports and romance section

Joey82:
I thought this topic was rested, we can argue till thy kingdom come, every body will still hold on to his/her point. One basic truth is that virginity enhances one's dignity,even players (especially males), are proud of meeting a lady that is still a virgin.

As for the men, it is hard to proove whether they deflowered or not owing to the way their sex organs are made, but imagine Kaka (AC Milan) proudly announced on his wedding eve that He was still a virgin, even if He was lying, everybody looked at him with an eye of dignity.

That Kaka part.

i wonder if any guy really envied him or looked at him with dignity. Most Milan fans cant even understand why he got married so early. Some even think it was rash and uncalled for.

But to a certain part i agree with you. Men use double standards when it comes to sex and judging women. A man who has had 70 women does not see himself as beign different from one that has only had one.

Ironically that same guy sees a woman that has had one sex partner as worse and undignified when compared to one that has yet to experience sex. .


Its probably a function of soceity though. Which can explain why African men dont like to marry a woman that has been married before (Probably coz her dignity has been taken away and she has been defiled by another man

@Pilgrim

Let me clarify this to you

1 Men and Women who remain faithful expect the same reward.

2 The commision giving to all Christians is given to both men and women

3 God does not view men as beign more important than women in anyway.


But as Paul noted, God has divinely arrainged for how the congregation(like other things) is to be run.

For example take a look at marriage

Both man and woman are one in God's eyes. They are as of one body . The sexual intrest of one does not take precedence over the other and children are instructed to obey their father and mother in the same measure etc.

But note that within that ONE BODY, there is an unchangable arraingment for headship. The fact that they are one does not mean any part of that body can exercise headship over the other.
Headship is still reserved for that one part of the body ((Regardless of the fact that the two seen as one)

It would be[b] erronous [/b] for anybody to quote scriptures citing where God instructed kids to obey and respect their parents in the same manner, and where God says the two are now one body to suggest that headship is also applicable to the female part of this one body.

Within that one body, God reserves headship for only males.

The two are one yes, but they are not both allowed to perform the same roles. The wife does not become head over her husband.

The congregation is one body but their are guidelines when it comes to those appointed by holy spirit to take the lead

@Pilgrim

Yes the scriptures does teach that only Men can be Overseers (Simply because the work Overseers do, which includes presiding over, teaching and having authority over the whole congregation ie Men women and children, is incompactible with what women are allowed to do .


Need i remind you that you were the one that posted the definitions of the Greek word Presbuteros

1 It can be used to refer to people who are advanced in age

2 It can be used to refer to a person in position of oversight

When Paul refered to older men and women , as well as younger men and women in his letter to Timothy, he clearly was not refering to Congregation Overseers. He advised Timothy on how to relate with all in the congregation
(Given the fact that Timothy was a young man and and most likely an Overseer. Beign appointed an overseer was not a function of age, but that of spiritual maturity under the guidiance of the holy spirit)


You mentioned about Prophesying.

Where is that prophesying and praying done? The bible nowhere mentioned that if a woman was to Prophesy and pray on behalf of the congregation in the presence of Men in the congregation then,
It would be erronous to read that kind of meaning into that passage


And what does this have to do with Overseers

And of note is this

"IN ALL THE CONGREGATIONS OF THE SAINTS" (All of true christianity)

This left no room for any expansion or reinterpretation of the bible to include women overseers.

@TV01

we are all in a merry go round.

Sister Pilgrim, Tayo D and Stimulus all erronously based their arguments mainly on this belief


Quote from pilgrim

The Bible never said that women are not to "have" authority - rather, it said that they should not "usurp" authority over the men!

but The bible says this

1 Tim 2:11,12
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 [b]I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.


and this

1 Cor 14: 33-35

33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
      As in all the congregations of the saints[/b], 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

@TV01

This is a little off topic but i was watching a CNN show 2 days ago and i the host spoke about a study which now showed that Men who let their wives take charge over the household are happier than men who reflect the long standing tradition of Men beign the head of the household . (Probably suggesting that women beign the head of the household with the man present is a better way to run the family than men beign the head of the household ) ( Clearly against biblical principles too )


I thought about it for a moment and i said wow very soon people would probably say that the bible is a good book that is out of date and needs to be revised because its heavily reflects Jewish Patriachal culture. Who knows at this rate, science might even soon 'prove' that beign homosexual is a function of nature and in a persons genes just like hetrosexuality and that Paul did not have enough medical advances to understand sexuality so he classified it as wrong

@Sister Pilgrim

I just dont want to run around the same thing over and over again when the bible is very clear on that issue. Il be brief and clear as possible

Given that the Bible does not contradict itself

1 Overseers are mandated and are the ones that teach, instruct and have authority over the whole congregation. The whole congregation also is subject to their authority

2 Women are not allowed to have authority over, preside or teach men within the congregation, therefore cannot serve as overseers

3 I brought up the issue of the Priests and Levites and Kings because Tayo D and Stimulus were claiming that somehow (Against biblical standards) it would amount to discrimination and sexism for women not to be allowed to serve as Overseers despite their seeing what the bible clearly stated
I cited that as an example in True worship were for thousands of years, God excluded women from certain positions and that did not mean it was discrimination. It was simply His will and all the women had to comply to that standard.

4 The word used as elders depends on the context in which it was used. Elders can refer to older people. Paul was admonishing Older Men, Older women, Younger Men and Younger women on how to behave.  That had nothing to do with Bishops/Overseers in the congregation

5 There were prophetesses back in Israelite times. The prophetesses you mentioned like Miriam could only lead and preside over fellow women in worship. Deborah was stated as acting as a Judge and Stimulus jumped on this to say that she served in the same capacity as male Judges. The bible does not say that. I showed that Male Judges like Samuel, Gidieon etc had the final word and authority, even leading in matters of worship when it came to divine commisions but the bible showed Deborah as relating God's will to a Man and it was the Man, not Deborah, that presided and had authority over that particular commision.

6 The bible is crystal clear on this issue so no need to try to make the Bible look like it contradicts itself, hence resulting in an endless debate.


You are still my Sister though