₦airaland Forum

Funny how the doctrine f eternal torment was shown as having no bases in the bible and all the pro eternal torment brigade disappeared .

I guess they got tired of saying that Rev 20:8 = Hellfire and seeing that it cant conflict and contradict the rest of the bible

TV01:
Ah, Donnie the Scribe, meet Backslider the Pharisee .

One doesn't drink 'because he's holier than thou, the other because it's perdition in a bottle .

Donnie in his wisdom came up with this

The Bible does not condemn drinking, but it warns strongly against drinking to excess (a distinction that our resident zealots do not seem t be able to make ). The Bible does not mention smoking at all. And smoking and drinking are not in any way the same.

Not to be outdone, Bro' Backslider came up with this;

Christian have liberty in Christ. If you can't deal with it, leave it. Don't try and legislate for everyone else or condenm those who believe differently.

Romans 14:3 - Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.

Sis' Agnesoseka summed it up quite succinctly.

But the wearers of broad phylacteries and the makers of long repetitive prayers (who suppose themselves to be spiritual titans, but are just religious pygmies) have to have the final [s]overblown essay ful of great swelling words[/s] say!

My advice is as follows;

1 Corinthians 7:23 - You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

Sorry, that wasn't my advice that was 1 Corinthians 7:23. My advice is shove off you two !

I completely agree with you.

@TV01 my brother, is it not a shame what so called christianity has resulted into? Rather than warning people about God's plan for the destruction of human rulership, the main theme of the bible, the harlot closes its eye to the main message of the bible and spend all there time confusing their members with self righteous and baseless inclinations aka ribena=wine .

I guess when you ignore what you should be doing you end up in frivolities like arguing that wine is now Ribena. Thats hilarious.

This self righteous attitude was the same reason why Jesus rejected the scribes and the Pharisees.

Why, they even accused Jesus of beign a sinner who was taking wine in excess .
Jesus kicked their asses out.

People should realise that no amount of self rigteousness is going to take them anywhere.


N?B Jesus drank alcoholic wine, all his apostles did the same. The bible has nothing against alcohol in moderation.

Alcohol, like food should be in moderation.

But if you are a slave of man, u can keep on with traditions of men as doctrine. . Seems like enslavement to selfrighteous doctrines that has no biblical bases suits many people. Make una carry go

Pirlo and Kaka are the best.

Forza Milan

c0dec:
it's just a fact of life that inter sucks. they are just cursed.
you sage, no excuses for you. milan have had a terrible season not withstanding. we'll so own you guys next season. i can't wait!

FORZA JUVE!

Yeah right. Keep dreaming .

Meanwhile, howz Seria B or is it C ?

.

You are so right. Intermerda cant win a Scudetto with Juve and big brother Milan on level basis .

With Seria A in disarray intermerda think they are doing fine. Lets wait for next season.

Ronaldo made a mistake in going to the club Initially. He is still yet to win a Seria A Medal. Thats what happens when you join losers

Forza MIlan

And il pick Totti b/4 any England midfielder.

chuckdee4:
So Lampard and any other English player doing well in the premiership is overated, whats the difference between them and Totti, Totti can be class on his day (in Serie A) but on an international level he's been crap, World Cup 2002, 2006 he was non existent, what effect did he have on Italy when they won the world cup last year. No doubt he's a good player and i love watching him play but he dissapears during the big games, where was he when Henry scored a hat trick against them at home, where has he been Champions leauge wise where the likes of liverpool where running Roma down. Anyone who says lampard is overrated should add Totti to that list because he only seems to come to live in Serie A. Na for Serie A im class end thats why he's overrated

Maybe overrated is not the word for Inzaghi, more like unpretty
Crespo is nothing but class, never been overrated
How bout Casanno?

Did you watch Euro 2000 at all? It would intrest you to know that in the finals even with Zidane, Viera, Henry etc on the winning side, Totti got the man of the match. Totti disappointed in the last world cup coz of injury. Euro 2004 played only one match b/4 getting suspended where his super pass to Zambrotta was one of the highlights of the tournament. 2002 wasnt a good world cup 4 his standards and neither was it for the Italian team.


And for the guy that said Totti is a late bloomer, he isnt. He has been around for a long time

4 Play:
Totti is the best playmaker we have seen in the Serie A(even better than Zidane) since R.Baggio.

He is underrated and is one of the best players of his generation

Your so right

Yeah Totti is one of the best players of this generation (i bet the premiership brigade that had no idea would disagree)

When he and Zidane played in Seria A, i would pick Totti ahead of Zidane. Nothing like him had appeared in the Seria A since Baggio

@Shahan.

The quotes that you responded to were ment 4 TV01 . But we could have an indept discussion on any of them that you chose.

I brought it to your notice that

1 The consequence of disobidience as stated by God from creation was death, never was it burning in Fire.

2 Ancient cities that were destroyed and that were never rebuilt were spoken of as burning in fire that will not be extinguished forever and ever eg Isaiah 34: 10 says that of Edom. Other cities had the same pronouncement. So did Sodom and Gomorrah

3 Jesus and the bible likened dead people to sleep. It is an unconscious state.

4 No part of Man survives his death. Man does not have a soul that survives death. This will render the resurrection which is the basis of the christian hope void.


Il come back and post scriptures that should clarify you on what thee Soul and the spirit means

chuckdee4:
Now if your looking for over-rated Totti, Gillardinho, Toni, Inzaghi (Both crap brothers) are your men, everyone goes on about how English players r overated but they seem to forget Italian players, Totti might be a bit harsh but these 3 constatntly go missing when the chips r down.

Messi, Fabregas n Ronaldo are so not overrated, Ronney possibly is but these guys r young so gut them some slack

Guy you must be smoking something.

Did you watch Euro 2000 at all. Totti overrated. Kai. More than 150 Seria A goals? .

Inzaghi-i dont think he was ever overated. If u score close to 180 goals in Seria A and some 40 champions league goals. Overrated. Thats more than any English forward that i know EVER

Gilardino stil hass enough time to prove himself and Toni was a late bloomer.

All in all mainly English players are overated

TV01

I would like to know ur stand on many issues that i still have found no basis in the bible for those teachings.

1 immortality of the soul---------- a big lie perpertuated by the church (looks like we have similar views)

2 Eternal Punishment----------2 bigger lie (i think u and i have similar views)

3 And the most controversial of all-The Trinity Doctrine----The biggest fraud the church has perpetrated.

Careful consideration of the bible has shown me certain things. But funny enough if you try to point it out to other people they accuse you of trying to promote the doctrine of a sect or cults . And since you know your views are from the bible, u cant help but wonder which sects and cults they are talking about.


I think i know your views on other issues like Christians and Politics and Military service , Popes and other church 'leading' man glorifying titles and tithes (or should i say theiving pastors ), The churchs harlory among others

Shahan you really have no grasp of what Soul and Spirit means.

Man does not have an Immortal soul, the bible is very clear on that. The spirit is not the same as the soul. It is the lifeforce that goes out at death.


TV01 im amazed by the depth of your Knowledge of the Bible. A very good bible student. I am always open to reasoning with peole on Biblical issues and ready to adjust if a person can prove his beliefs from the bible.

Unfortunately so called morden day Christianity has masked so many false teachings and paraded it like its the truth, decieving billions in the process. Any open minded good student of the bible will be appaled at most of the churchs doctrines

Shahan it will be good if u noted that right from creation God showed humans the consequence of deviation. They would die. At no place did God tell them that they would burn forever. Satan was the one perpetrating the idea of wrongdoers living forever

Eternal fiery judgement was used in the bible to refer to eternal anahilation. You once said that the two words were contradictory but they are not. unlike some cities that were destroyed and rebuilt, eternal fire was used to foretell the eternal anahilation of some cities.

Isaiah 34:10 tells us that the fire that burns in the city of Edom would not be extinguished and that it would burn forever and ever. Other passages in the same chapter clearly showed Edom would be anahilated forever. Today, no literal smoke ascends from Edom forever and ever, but her destruction was permanent.

Same story 4 Sodom.


Eternal fire was also used to depict the eternal destruction of several ancient cities that have never been rebuit.

Rev 20:8 does not indicate a literal fire. but rev explains the lake of fire as the second death.
It also indicated that death will be thrown into the lake of fire as will Hell.
Now death is not a physical thing, and hell(which Jesus also went to) is the common earth or grave under the soil.

If it were a literal fire, how would death and the literal sand be thrown into fire forever. It doesnt make any sense whatever. The literal soil used to bury people being thrown inside fire does not achieve anything.

Other bible passages however indicate that death would be anahilated forever ie thrown into the lake of fire.

The parable of Lazarus was exactly what it was ------------------, a parable and was not literal in any sense.

Shahan have you ever tried to find out what God's purpose for this earth is?

On the issue of the condition of the dead
When Jesus friend Lazarus died, Jesus highlighted the condition of the dead when he compared Lazarus to a sleeping man. Jesus never indicated that any part of Lazarus survived his death or was somewhere else waiting on something or anything like that. Lazarus had no consciousness whatsoever in line with the truth about the dead unlike the lies perpetrated today.

A lil correction 4play

Navarro is the substitute center defender, while Marchena starts. He was paired in past seasons with Ayala but with the form and emergence of Raul Abidol he starts as their defensive midfielder along with Albelda

And Roma are minnows . Stop licking the premeirships azz and get acquinted with other leagues.

If you had any idea of what Roma can do or who their coach is, ul never call them minnows.

Get ready to eat your words

Hugoboi:
It seems every poster suddenly thinks minnows like Roma can really beat the Reds.This shows how deep the beef really runs.Roma as far as i'm concerned is a three man team [basically totti,pannucci and De Rossi] and i don't see them being much of a problem.Its going to be a red triumph by and by

U see my problem with people that watch only english league. They don't even know what they are talking about.

You will remember these names for life after this encounter

1 Taddei

2 Mancini

and one of the best central defensive pairings in the world, yes better than ferdinand and Vidic, Mexes-Chivu.

Some people here have no idea

Roma have one of the best central defensive pairings in the world at the moment Mexes and Chivu are a brick wall.

Mark my words. Roma would beat United.

Valencia couldnt score them at home, Lyon could not at all.

I bet those that watch only the premiership have not seen a club side that plays week in week out without a striker in ther line up. Strange.
And in spalleti, they have one of the best coaches and tacticians in the world right now.

Yall will see.

And Valencia will beat Chelsea.

The only game that cant be called right now is Milan-Bayern.
Both teams would have made the semis if they were not pulled together at this stage.

well let me take a softer approach. Sometimes i feel i come on a lil to strong and i might be attacking the heart of the beliefs of many.

But i still want people to open their bibles and stop believing a lie.

shahan:
@sage,

My dear sir, I wonder why you are so quick to be accusative in your posts. Just to assure you, I indeed looked them up, and I'm sorry to note that you have flipped pages without seeking an understanding of what the texts say.

The same Bible described the second death as being cast into "the lake of fire", so graphically that a careful reader will NOT miss the everlasting torment there:

Rev 20:10 & 14-15
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. . . And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

If you are referring to Jude 7, I beg to differ from those who don't know jot about the context there.

Since death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14), I beg you sir, please bring me the verse that says Jesus went to THE LAKE OF FIRE, and argument will cease. As far as I know, Jesus did NOT go to that place prepared for the devil and his angels (". . . into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" - Matt. 25:41.

The supposed contradiction is contracted by those who struggle with the plain text of Scripture.

You are yet to demonstrate a clear understanding of the subject; so do you care to stop the shouting for a moment and take a second look, perhaps?

No, my dear. Long ago I covenanted in my heart to God that small talk and snide remarks will not sway me.

Tara!

Can you please make a step by step analysis of my post in which i posted those scriptures. Now its no longer hellfire (now uve seen jesus went to hell too),its lake of fire.

Its not just Jude 7 that you are now trying to explain away my dear. The destruction of Edom was also likend to eternal fire. Il get the scriptures for you. Eternal anahilation is liken to eternal fire in the bible. It signifies destruction and not fire

It was never Gods plan to put people into fire and will never be.

Disprove those scriptures and stop trying to use rev 20:8 as hell fire. The bible defines the lake of fire as the second death. If hell fire were to be thrown into the lake of fire and both were fire, i wonder if the person orchastrating this is confused.

The bible shows that the people in hell are dead. So death(not a physical thing) and hell (u think its fire) will now be thrown into fire? hear yourself girl.

Rev 21:3,4 shows that death will be removed permanently. Would death now be thrown into literal fire.

Stop beign enslaved to demonic teachings and read the bible and stop tryind to say rev 20:8 = hellfire

Go through those scriptures i posted in my other post and try to explain them all away.

Its a pity he way the devil mires people in false teachings

shahan:
Hell-fire is real and unending. Its various descriptions in Scripture are nothing less than as found in Revelation 20:10 - those who are cast into the lake of fire shall be:

TORMENTED

DAY and NIGHT

FOR EVER and EVER.

Jesus NEVER went to the LAKE of FIRE. He died for the salvation of man - that whosoever believes might NOT perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16.

@syrup,
You've weathered a lot, but intelligently articulated a lot on this subject. Good work - keep it going sista!!

Shahan you have started your blind arguments again. I posted scriptures that backed up everythinh i said but u didnt bother to look at it

The bible defined the lake of fire as Death, not everlasting torture

Eternal fire that never stops burning was used to describe the destruction of Edom, Sodom and other cities.

Jesus went to hell, so did job and other faithfuls. The people in hell are dead not tormented

The basis of the christian faith which you claim to have is the resurrestion. The false doctrine of eternal torment contradicts it.

@Shaahan stop beign enslaved to false teachings perpetrated by demons. the bible is clear on this.

Im not suprised though. You fully support the morden day harlotry of the church against the principles of true christianity so this does not come as a suprise.

Sheva was never overrated and neither Raul. About 50 champions league goals is not beans and is not achieved by players who are flashes in the pan.
Martins is having a better season in premiership than Sheva. But for three seasons in Seria A their names were never mentioned in the same Breath. Does this one season now mean that Martins is better than Sheva? I think not

il be very brief on this

1 condition of the dead (Unconsious, no feelings or thoughts nor burning in fire)

Psalms 146:4, Ecc 9: 5, 10, John 11:11-14

2 Consequence of disobidience/ sin (was never eternal fire but death)
Gen 2:17, 3:19, Rom 6:7, 23, 5:12,17,19, Ezekiel 18:4, 2nd Thesselonians1:9, Psalms 9:17

3 People that went to hell (including Jesus Christ)
Acts 2:25-27,34, Job 14:13.

4 Eternal fire was used to symbolize the eternal destruction of cities like Sodom and Gommorah, Edom, etc
Jude 7 (i cant remember the one for Edom now)

5 Precedent in time of Noah, God destroyed the wicked not eternal torment either for them or for the earth.

6 God's plan for the earth (never to be destroyed or set ablaze)
Isaiah 45:18, Ecclisiastics 1:4, 2nd Peter3:7,10, Psalms 37:9-11,29, Matt 6:10

7 Burning people in fire never Gods intent
Jeremiah 7:31

8 Doctrine of eternal torment contradicts the basis of the Christian faith, THE RESURECTION HOPE. If the dead were already alive burning, why would Jesus and his apostles all stress on the resurection?, what would death mean, a condition of inactivity like the bible states or a transition to burning inside fire?

@surup, Tayo D go through these scriptures and then let me know. I would be disppointed to see anybody try to explain away the scriptures in order to support a false imported doctrine that has no basis from the bible(like the politics thread and the women ministers thread ) i wont be suprised though

The truth remains that eternal torment formented by a bogey man is falsehood of the highest order and slanders the name of the Almighty God.



The lifespan of a man is but like 70 or 80 yrs of imperfection. What kind of god would propose eternal punishment? for deeds of imperfection Such a god who is an eternal tormentor deserves no respect. There is no unrighteousness on the part of the Almighty.

Bottomline remains that eternal torment remains one of the biggest frauds of so called morden day Christianity

Ezekiel 18:4 shows that the soul that is sinning would die, Paul clearly shows that death pays for sins, and the bible clealy shows that the dead are conscious of nothing at all, and Jeremiah showsthat the loving God clearly has no intentions of putting his creation into fire, hell is the common grave of mankind and Jesus was in hell too and no such thing as eternal torment exists.

The bible teaches anahilation of the wicked

The eternal fire doctrine is ludicrious. A falsehood that blasphames God.

Il be back with all the scriptures you guyz need but i have serious doubts even after 30 passages from the bible showing that no such thing as eternal torment, some people here who there minds have been blinded will still argue blindly.

Syrup, il be grately dissapointed if you try to explain away the bible in order to support a false belief

Tayo D and Syrup

You guys have been misled by one of the biggest false doctrines the church has ever incorperated. At no single place did the bible teach eternal torment.

Il come back tommorrow and list plenty of scriptures for you.

The bible is clear about the condition of the dead, what awaits the wicked and what is instore for the earth.

I didnt want to engage in a protracted useless discussion like the politics thread where all the scriptures i put accross clearly showing that human rulership was controlled by the devil and he gives it to whom he wants were ignored for false practices accepted by the church and its big time harlotry.

It sometimes feels like a waste of time, but i can't help but try to help people who have gone with and accepted the biggest fraud and blasphemy metted out on God's personality.

The doctrine of eternal torment remains one of the biggest wrongdoings of the church.
And Tayo D still questions it when i say the church would be judged and destroyed? Its partly because of false teachings like these.

My views on this topic would be remarkably diffrent from others.

@syrup

stop decieving urself. the only thing that the bible does not teach is eternal torment

there is no such thing. The dead have no feelings or thoughts whatsoever.

The bible clearly explained the lake of fire as the second death.

Death pays for your sins. The bible shows that at death, u no longer have feelings, pains or any thought whatsoever and the bible also clearly shows that destruction is what awaits the wicked, not eternal fire of any sort. Eternal torment is falsehood and has no basis on the bible.

Im kind of busy now but il post a lot of scriptural refrences in due course.

But to start with, check out Ecclesiastics 9: 5,6,10
Psalms 37, 9-11, 29