@jaybaby,
How do you mean?

Bless up, @goodguy!! For a moment, I thought our able admin actually eternally banned you from our prestigious rendezvous, especially at a time when we needed to settle our score! So I went up the mountain to prophecy and cast out the "castables". . . viola! Who says prayer no dey work??

@mrpataki,
For your sake, I shall say the prophetic and expect your all-round "sight" - the insight, foresight, hindsight, poor-sight, oversight, and even near-sight sef! Sharpen your prophetic vision well-well, because you're about to see things that Balaam didn't see!
_{mlks_baby sends you special greetings!}

@belloti,
Erudite gentleman. . Lol. Glad to see you here - and, of course, keeping the flow of sane gist. Any insight for the 2007?

@Analytical,
As son of man, you could now pass into the more mature category. Since you're no longer in the "dream-dreams" category, it says rather that the "[young men] shall see visions!" That's more like it - and remember that visions are not as common as dreams!

@Y'all,
You've been great and shahan doesn't regret joining Nairaland at all. Bless up; and keep the dreams, visions, prophecies. . and "insight" coming. Nigeria go better!!

Easy. . . because you're supposed to be discerning the prophetic messages with prophetic insight! Abi I lie??

@nuru,

Calm reasoning, well done. However, I wonder if Muslims really take the time to respect and be more tolerant to other faiths. As a former Muslimah, I know first hand that Islam itself is intolerant or respectful to other faiths. Many Muslims today exude great friendliness and tolerance towards other people; but if one were to go by the Qur'an, such Muslims would find themselves denounced as hypocrites.

@Backslider,

I see your point, but I do not agree with it. Jesus was never created. He was God and became flesh. He did not creat Himself - that would mean that He did not exist before He created Himself, which does not make any sense at all.

The Scriptures articulate the Incarnation in various ways:

1. He became flesh - John 1:14

2. He was made of David's seed according to the flesh - Rom. 1:3

3. He was made in the likeness of men - Phil. 2:7

4. He took part of flesh and blood - Heb. 2:14

5. He came in the flesh - I John 4:2-3

6. He, as God, was manifest in the flesh - I Tim. 3:16

7. The Father sent Him in the likeness of sinful flesh - Rom. 8:3

You will see clearly that in all these, the Lord Jesus already existed and He couldn't have created Himself in the flesh. He came in the flesh, but not created Himself in the flesh.

Cheers.

@8oracle,

For emphasis, this is what the O.T. says in identifying 'the Mighty God' as 'Jehovah' Himself!

The same text you quoted to identify God as 'Jehovah' (i.e., 'the LORD') is given below:

8oracle:

In the bible book of Genesis Chapter 17:1 "when Abram got to be ninety -nine years old,then Jehovah (or Yahweh)appeared to Abram and said to him, " I am God Almighty, walk before me and prove yourself faultless

In our English Bibles, Genesis 17:1 reads - "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD (i.e., 'Jehovah') appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." (KJV).

Now if "the LORD" (Jehovah) is the Almighty God, He is the very same who said in Exo. 6:3, "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."

Now if you carefully study the Word, you'll see the same God is known as the following:

                   * The LORD (Jehovah)

                   * The Mighty God

                   * The Almighty God

                   * The Lord

                   * The Lord of Hosts

Jer. 32:18
"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name."

Perhaps I should ask you this pertinent question: Since you believe that JEHOVAH is the Almighty God, is it recorded anywhere that anyone has seen JEHOVAH?

There cannot be "two Gods" arbitrarily delineated along the lines of beggarly human reasoning, which as in your case has proven to be without a Biblical foundation.

@8oracle,

Your conclusions are actually baseless and accusative because neither 4get_me nor I have ever denied that Jesus is the Christ or the Son of God. If you think we have said so, then please cut-and-paste or repost any line where we have denied Jesus Christ as the Son of God. You shouldn't jump to conclusions simply because your own presumptions are not articulate enough to hold substance.

I think the questions asked by 4get_me are very timely and were supposed to have helped you calm down and study the O.T. about who is the LORD. Since you hastily dismissed the questions as "foolish in nature and do not require answers to", you have only proven your inconsistencies and inability to provide answers. In this instance, let me repost my answers that earlier dealt with the questions:

shahan:

If there is a difference between "The Almighty God" as absolute and "The mighty God" as relative, doesn't that suppose that you're worshipping two Gods and therefore defeating your own argument? You can't go round this issue with such reasoning; but let me help you.

There are several other scriptures that declare God both as "Almight" and as "Mighty". These are not two separate "Gods" but the very same One. If you state that the mighty God refers to the Messiah (and therefore, Jesus), are you willing to apply the same rule to the other scriptures where the term appear? Let me break it down:

According to you, the mighty God refers to the Messiah (i.e., Jesus); therefore, do the following refer to the same Messiah?? Here:

Deut. 7:21
"Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible."

Jer. 32:18
"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name."

Hab. 1:12
"Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction."

Psa. 50:1
"The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof."

Now, you see, 8oracle that if you equate the mighty God to the Messiah, then infact the Messiah indeed was the very same One whom the Jews worshipped as The LORD (i.e., Jehovah). Are you now convinced that Jesus is the mighty God and the very same Jehovah of the O.T.?

Further, let's establish the fact that "the mighty God" is the very same "Almighty God" in the Scriptures. Notice in the verses above that the mighty God is called the LORD? Jer. 32:18 identifies the mighty God as "the LORD of hosts"; while Psa. 50:1 refers to the mighty God as "even the LORD". So, if the mighty God is the Messiah, then the same Messiah is the LORD of hosts. And what the mighty God is called, is the same that the Almighty was called in the O.T. - the LORD!! See the following:

Gen. 17:1
"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect."

Exo. 6:3
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."

The point I am trying to make here is that there is only one God; and the mighty God is the very same as the Almighty God (or, God Almighty). To infer that they are different and separate is not sustained in God's Word, otherwise such a person would be worshipping "two Gods"!

@8oracle,

Again, I'll ask that you go back and study the OT and ask if there are two Gods in the Bible - "a lesser god" and another "God". May God enrich your study of His holy Word.

When your laughter has faded, you will find Jesus.

@4get_me,

Once again, thank you so much. Just leave the rest to the Lord Jesus - He knows how to handle such issues of prejudice and convoluted idioms. Praise Him for the miracle you have personally experienced in your life.

God bless.

Hi 4get_me,

I would like to thank you for your concern. However, may I kindly ask that you just leave it off here and let the Lord Jesus take care of the rest? The insults mean nothing actually, and there's nothing I cannot forgive.

Much blessing.

@8oracle,

Your difficulty at understanding your own inferences stems form your denying the same thing that you seem to confess.

There is not a single place where I denied Jesus being the Christ or the Son of God. The only question I raised was:

shahan:

Have you really thought about the meaning of that appellation: the Son of God? Do you really know what it means?

From all your entries you have not categorically addressed the issue. Rather, you've only quoted texts out of contexts and arrived at very slanted meaning of what the Bible teaches. Then you came up with the idea that Jesus Christ is "a lesser god", when in fact there's no Scripture to back that up in any translation of the Bible.

With the love of Jesus Christ, I'll just advise you to read all the references in the OT about the LORD and gather your points from there before making unscriptural statements. When you have done this, then we can come back amicably to share our findings and compare notes to see if there are "two Gods" in the Bible - one who is "a lesser god" and the other one whom you confess as a different Almighty God.

Don't let the humanity of Jesus Christ blind you to His deity. Blessings.

Lol. . . for those who clear throat and those who relinquish the guessing throats, may prophetic blessings follow you from today!

My prayers follow you, dear Havila!

Actually I've been called many things worse than that; but the living grace of the Lord Jesus Christ has been sufficient in all things.

There's so much cover-up in Islam, and it's just about time that Spirit-filled believers expose the fraud.

@Havila,

Many thanks. I have just come to the very same thing, but wondered if anyone shared that with me - and that's why I asked the question. Blessings.

Many blessings, LuckyCO. . .lol. I'm working on it, but had to take time off to make a special meal for a friend. Will be back soonest. Cheers.

@8oracle,

8oracle:

@shahan: I[b] DO NOT WORSHIP JESUS,[/b] all and all my worship and prayers, sacred service goes to the almighty God Jehovah(Yahweh) through him (Jesus) as my ransomer,a mediator who complete obidience to his father set a precedence to anyone who want to gain an approved state by God.(Mathew 6:9. Mark 12:29-30,I Timothy 2:5)

It's alright if you do not worship Jesus and see Him as a "lesser god." What that says of a person is simply this: he or she has "two gods", and only chooses one of them. I do not fall into that dilemma, and have never had a problem with who is Jesus Christ. The Bible did not say He is "a god"; rather, in John 1:1 He is called God.

8oracle:

Seeing Jesus as a lesser god is scriptural correct, for he knew that he's father prior said through Isaiah the prophet Chapter42:8 " I am Jehovah (Yahweh) and that is my name, and to no one else shall i share my glory, or my praises to graven image.

Well, if you read the book of Isaiah again from any translation at all, you will not find the prophet calling the Messiah "a lesser god" so, please don't make the mistake of thinking that you sound scripturally correct.

8oracle:

Or is John chapter 14:28 not in your bible where christ himself said ("My father is greater than I AM" FULL STOP He made it known that he was God's servant sent to do his will here on earth John 3:34 "My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me,and finish it. Full stop.

Was He merely God's servant, and not His Son as well? I think the problem here is that you're driving His servanthood too far as to forget that He is the divine Son as well.

8oracle:

Jesus before he came to earth as the most perfect man who ever lived, is a spirit being in the heaven far superior than the cherubs and seraphs,he been the first and the beginning of all Gos's creation (Rev 3:14)

What kind of spirit being was He, according to your summation?

8oracle:

Repeatedly in the scriptures Christ Jesus is being reffered severally as the Son of God, a classical example is in Mathew 16:16 where apostle Peter answered and said "You re the christ the son of the living God" Do you shahan disagree to this statement? which even christ said it is a heavenly divine given answer.

If you follow my posts, there is not a single time I ever remotely tried to deny Jesus as the Son of God. My question to you was simply if you knew what that appellation meant.

8oracle, do you realise what you are saying by referring to Jesus as "a lesser god"?

@TV01,

I think you got it all wrong; and indeed my replies were not hasty. I was wondering what useful purpose it would have served to post whole lengthy chapters when readers could easily access the points of the particular verses we are about.

Secondly, we all have varying views on the subject - and while stating that my position had changed from the one previously held by TayoD, I went on to give an indepth analysis of precisely why my present position came about. I haven't read yet how you arrived at your persuasions from the background of the elements you mentioned.

If the very same elements have been comprehensively treated in my previous post and yet did not strike a chord with you, I'm sure we can all agree to just smile at the humour of having been blessed by contributions from one another. Afterall, whatever is shared here is just the personal views of the posters.

Cheers and many blessings.

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

All that matters is what the bible says, not what you think is so

And I've shown precisely what the Bible says, and not what you think, thought, or are thinking.

Bobbyaf:

Besides, aren't you breaking your own ill-concieved ideas about women teaching men anyway?

Welcome back to the Forum, JJC. We have been through this before and I thrashed it out as well.

Bobbyaf:

As a woman, and based on your understanding, however skewed it may be, why are you ursurping?

"Usurping" - because you feel a tired-out chauvinistic complex already??

I hope you're not showing off your R-IQ? The question was simple and straight forward, and if you have no answers, you didn't need to make it obvious.

. . . And??

@8oracle,

After reading your exegesis, this is what surprised me:

8oracle:

Under this light Jesus is a lesser god, giving accurate meaning to John 1:1 "In (the) beginning the word was, and he word was with God, and the word was a god.

So, if Jesus is a lesser god, that automatically calls you a worshipper of "two gods" - one a higher "God", and the other a lesser "god"!

For your information, that idea is immediately thrown out the window by one of the verses you had quoted:

Isaiah 43:10
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

Bottomline: there is no lesser god in the Bible - and any interpretation of seeing Jesus as a "lesser god" is simple idolatry.

I have explained John 1:1 in depth in the other thread: Who Was Jesus Before He Became Man.

TV01:

Hebrews 8: 1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

. . . And??

May I say this:

(a) when anyone wants to judge another pastor as fake or as a false teacher, such a person should remember that judgement awaits him as well.

(b) using some verses of Scripture to "prove" that another pastor is a false teacher without established facts is hypocrisy.

(c) those who are emphatically opposed to miracles everytime they are mentioned somehow manage to reveal that they wouldn't be able to tell a genuine one from a false one.

(d) if the complainers are not happy with the miracles occuring in others' ministries, they should get theirs and put their mouth where it belongs.

Well, it all depends - and as a former Muslim I can understand where they are coming from. Anything that questions the claims of Muhammad and the authenticity of Islam is regarded as an insult and personal attacks.

Perhaps, quite a few perceived personal attacks have been posted on this thread - or so I pressume from the tone of the posters. But while not accusing anyone (and I'm ready to offer unconditional apologies to all who feel offended), i would rather we continue to have good exchanges of ideas and knowledge on various subjects.

@TayoD,

Great reasoning; and like you, I'm persuaded that TV01 missed the whole context and inference of Hebrews 9:27. However, at the risk of overstating it, let me share once again my present persuasion why the context of that verse refers to physical death, rather than spiritual.

(a) I previously held the same as your present position out of the same reasons you had offered. What made me change my perspective was a more indepth study of the verse, taking into consideration the author's characteristic style, nuances, context, and the collective picture of the whole epistle. Where these have been missed, a slanted idea will result.

(b) Notice the verse is not arguing that every man without an exception must die; rather, it states a general premise that his recipients were well acquainted with, as encapsulated in the writings of the prophets. Of course, these prophets already were acquainted with the fact that some men did not experience physical death (as in Enoch's case - Gen. 5:24; which also the author of Hebrews well knew - Heb. 11:5). Yet, rather than make a statutory declaration that all men must die, the verse simply points us to a broad sense of what is the common lot of men.

(c) Please carefully see the following that undergirds (b) above:

          Job 7:1
          Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?

          Job 30:23
          For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.

          Psa. 89:48
          What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

          Eccl. 9:3
          This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all:
          yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after
          that they go to the dead.

You might also want to see Job 14:1-12
          Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. . . Seeing his days are determined,
          the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass.

You can gather from all these that the apostle, in penning Heb. 9:27, was not treating the subject of spiritual death, but rather the very same one with which the recipients of his epistle were well familiar - physical death. I trust this is what the blessed patriarchs Joshua and David meant by their classic adage, "going the way of all the earth" (Josh. 23:14 & I Kings 2:2), which simply alludes to the common lot of men in a general sense.

(d) Now a very important question might be asked: If the death alluded to in Heb. 9:27 points to spiritual death, are we to infer that the judgement took place following its occurence? Did the judgement occur after spiritual death took place?

If that were the case, then two very convoluted ideas result:
             (i) it would then mean that there is no future judgement to be executed, as this would have taken place
                 right after the Fall in Gen. 3 - and which would render the sense of Heb. 9:27 completely misguided.
            (ii) since the judgement is a specific one, the context shows already that it is yet a future occurence;
                 otherwise, the vicarious sacrifice of Christ would have been entirely unnecessary where no judgement
                 was expected in future.

(e) Now, we must as well ask: who did the appointing - i.e., who appointed man to die once? You can see the answer immediately in the verses already quoted, that God alone is the one who appointed man thereto: "thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass" (Job 14:5). This appointing is not unto spiritual death, because that would suppose that God actually appointed man to the Fall! But then, physical death is there alluded to, so that we understand it as the present crises that man has to grapple with.

Please note well, the apostle would have us understand that the death being spoken of in Heb. 9:27 is physical death - which is in stricking apposition to "the judgement"! One needs ask: when is the judgement to occur? If it is a future event, then the death there is clearly one that is in a physical sense, rather than in a spiritual sense. If the death were spiritual, then it presupposes that there is no future judgement - because it would have occured soon after Gen. 3 when spiritual death occured.

Finally, there is going to be a triumph over death in all its expression:

I Cor. 15:54-57
"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."


I have enjoyed your reasoning and been blessed by it. I trust that we have both learnt something beneficial either way.

Cheers.

. . . And your point is??

@Bobbyaf,

Many times I wonder if you really go through posts before you make any entry. Are you badly in need of attention? The very things you pressumed were lacking in mine have been thoroughly thrashed; and so far nothing erudite has been highlighted in yours.

What is it in yours that you think I have not dealt with??

Bless.

The beautiful thing about the friend is that ever since He came in, He hasn't made amove as if the leave. That was the very first thing He asked for - to stay forever!

As time went by, I found that this Friend is the only One who can be relied upon for all time. Thank you for sharing His love, marlet01.