@jaybaby,
How do you mean?

Jesus is Yahweh in Flesh he is Jehovah in Flesh

@Backslider

If you go by the scripture you will see that in him do all things consist and there nothing that was created that was not done by him he is the high Servant or High Priest. I speaking in the Spirit and flesh. He is the creator of all things so he Created himself as Jesus Christ ( MAN)

The Son of God became a man. He wasn't created as one. Even though the bible says "He was made flesh, " that is just its way of saying that the Son took on humanity. Try as we may we cannot fathom that mystery.

But In spirit he The Son Of God was never created. He came down and was made man as Jesus leaving all the power and authority as The Almighty God That I will forever worship to be become mortal man and that in his death and resurrection we might Have Zoe (life).

Let me ask you this question. At what point did Jesus become the Son of God? Was He the Son of God before He became a man, or was it before? Just curious to know what you believe.

When the bible refers to the Son as "the only Begotten", what does it mean? Was there a time when the Son was not begotten?

This brings into sharp focus whether or not Christ and the Father are co-eternal. One school of thought suggests that at one point God the Father alone existed, and that He divided Himself in two, thus begetting the Son.

Another school of thought suggests and which is supported by the bible is that Both beings are co-eternal. They both share the same substance and attributes. The only difference is their roles.

Christ assumed a role of humility. Paul in Phillipians makes that very clear. Although He possessed divine attributes, just as His Father, He chose to become a man in order that He might die for the sin of the world.

Now Oracle8 would have us believe that because Christ prayed to His Father while on earth and called His Father God even while praying makes Jesus lesser. He goes on to quote some other texts that shows the total dependence that Jesus had on His Father, to suggests that Jesus was not almighty, and hence inferior.

I would say this much to Oracle8; don't confuse Christ's submissive role when He was a man setting an example for us, with whom Christ really was and still is. Christ was and still is, fully God, and fully man, yet He could not exercise both God-like and human attributes at the same time. I know some will take me to task on this, but I will still hold my ground on this.

My take is simply this. Christ is fully God, but when He became man in order to show sinful mankind how to live the life that counts, He did so as a man totally dependent on His Father. He could not because of choice, use His Godly power to gain the victory. Every victory that Christ gained He gained through His Father's power. Thats why He said "I can do nothing of myself, "

Trust me this is deep stuff. Christ knew what was at stake, and that is why He prayed to His Father in the garden not for His (Jesus) will to be done, but for the Father's will to be done.

@bobbyaf


Thanks

They are coequal and he was with the Father from the begining. In the Spirit Realm what comes out is stronger than what is seemly static but because it is on a mission on Service. Now look at this The Prince is greater that the King In the Spirit world because he is at work.

Jesus is refered to as the Prince of Peace and the Kings of the Jews. Also as the Kings of Kings. You must read the whole of John 17 to understand the correlation of Godhead.

When there is love There is no OGA TRUE OR FALSE. Dont be afraid of my Name he is working. If me and you are in the same class say class 1 and I am calling you great names in love, it does not make you be in class 2.

You see that God had exhalted the name of Jesus that at the mention of his name every nee shall bow does that mean that because jesus name is Exalted The father is not? Remember he said I am in my father and he in me so because of the love they have for themselve they dont have canal position seeking feeling. God bless

I've enjoyed all the inputs of late and can appreciate the various thinking heads on the Forum.

@Backslider, thanks for this line:

Backslider:

They are coequal and he was with the Father from the begining.

I think I can relate to that line of reasoning, and have always wondered upon that from the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ used the same titles the Almighty used for Himself in Revelation 22:12-13 --
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

For those still struggling with the deity of Jesus Christ, I've always asked them to please help explain who was speaking in that Scripture above.

Bless.

@topic, here are some sources attributed to Jesus as being God incarnate.

source: http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm
[b]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God never changes.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God is the only Saviour.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

To the only wise God our Saviour,  Jude 1:12

God our Saviour. Titus 2:10

, we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10

God my Saviour. Luke 1:47
Jesus is the only Saviour.
, the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14

, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18

, God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1

, the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42

, the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4

a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11

Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--Acts 4:12

, salvation,  is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
--2 Timothy 2:10

, captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings.
-- Heb 2:10

[Jesus], author of eternal salvation, 
-- Heb 5:9


God created the universe and earth by Himself.
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1
Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth.
[U]nto the Son he saith, Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10

[B]y him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16

All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3


God is the Word.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
Jesus is the Word.
, the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, John 1:14


God is the first and the last.

I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4
Jesus is the first and the last.

Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17



God  Jesus
God forgives sins.
[T]he Lord, forgiveth all thine iniquities,  Psalm 103:2-3

"[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7
Jesus forgives sins.
Jesus, said, "Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5


God is our redeemer.
[T]hou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer,  Isaiah 63:16
Jesus redeemed us.
[T]the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity,  Titus 2:13-14


God is one.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4
Jesus and God are one.

I and my Father are one. John 10:30

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, All things were made by him, He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14

Jesus saith, he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

God has a Son.

[T]he LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:7
Jesus is God's Son.

,  [Jesus] said also that God was his Father,  John 5:18



God  Jesus
God is the Holy One
Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Messianic Psalm)
Jesus is the Holy One.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

13:34-35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

God  Jesus
Only God is worshipped.
,  Then saith Jesus unto him,  Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10
Jesus is worshipped.
While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him,  Matthew 9:18

And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6

And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28


God is Messiah.
, unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called,  The mighty God, The everlasting Father,  Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is Messiah.
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26


God is from everlasting.

The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. Psalms 93:1-2
Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) is from everlasting.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2



God  Jesus
Only God is glorified.
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,  Isaiah 42:8
God glorified Jesus.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5

[A]ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23

But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8


God is 'I am'.
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14
Jesus is 'I am'.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58

God heals all diseases.
Bless the LORD, who healeth all thy diseases. Psalms 103:2
Jesus heals all diseases.
[Jesus] healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16

God is the Judge of the whole earth.
O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2

[Abraham to God], Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25
Jesus is the Judge of the whole earth.
[T]he Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22

God has life in Himself.
[T]he Father hath life in himself; John 5:26
Jesus has life in Himself.
so hath [God] given to the Son to have life in himself;

In [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4

God raises the dead.
[T]he Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; John 5:21
Jesus raises the dead.
[T]he Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion,   



Jesus Christ is God



The scriptures bear abundant testimony that Jesus Christ is God. Some liberal preacher will say to me, "You take the Bible literally. It's just myths." I answer, "Yes, I believe the Bible 100%. It is the word of God. If you don't believe it, Jesus is of no effect to you, ye are yet in your sins."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Additional Verses:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, RECEIVED UP into glory."

--1 Timothy 3:16


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"But unto the SON he saith, 'Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom', And, 'Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.'"

-- Hebrews 1:8, 10


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I and my Father are ONE."


--Jesus Christ, John 10:30


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

", CHRIST JESUS, being in the FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."


--Philippians 2:5-8


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."


--1 John 5:7


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

",  feed the church of GOD, which he hath purchased with his OWN BLOOD."


--Acts 20:28


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Hereby perceive we the love of GOD, because he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for us, 


--1 John 3:16


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon GOD, and saying, LORD JESUS, receive my spirit."


--Acts 7:59


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."


--Isaiah 9:6


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"And Thomas answered and said unto him [JESUS], My Lord and MY GOD."


--John 20:28


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."


--John 1:1-4, 14


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Philip saith unto him, 'Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.' Jesus saith unto him, 'Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?''"


-- John 14:8-9


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

", CHRIST, who is the IMAGE OF GOD, "


--II Corinthians 4:4


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

", glory of GOD in the FACE OF JESUS CHRIST."


--II Corinthians 4:6


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"GOD, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his SON, who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON, "


--Hebrews 1:1-3


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 WHO IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn* of every creature:
1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

*firstborn: pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term 'firstborn' is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called 'firstborn' although he was actually the youngest son.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."


-- Colossians 2:9



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

", they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."


--Matthew 1:23


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The voice of him [John the Baptist] that crieth in the wilderness, PREPARE ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway FOR OUR GOD."


-- Isaiah 40:3



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


THESE PEOPLE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT JESUS WAS GOD AND THOUGHT HE BLASPHEMED WHEN HE TOLD THE TRUTH.
"The Jews answered [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."


-- John 10:33




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Addenda from justbible.com--

Some cults teach that Jesus was God's first Creation, and that Christ then Created the universe we know. This is a verse cults use to support their false doctrine.

("Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"

This verse also.

("John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. "

They say, "See, he was in the beginning with God."

They will even use this verse.

("Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

_________

Now for the Truth, from God's word, let's compare Scripture with Scripture.

If you only read this verse, you might think it was talking about Jesus, and that he was set up.

But if you read the chapter, you will realize who or what it is talking about.

("Proverbs 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions."

Wisdom, not Christ. The whole chapter is about wisdom personified. To make it even more clear that it is not Christ, wisdom is spoken of as female.

("Proverbs 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places,, "

Let's see what the Bible says about Christ.

("Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" ("John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

He created everything that was created, and nothing was created by anyone but him. If Christ made all things then he must have existed before everything that was created. ("Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." He is the one and only Creator. If he created all things then did he create himself? No, he can't be a created being. He existed before the beginning. He is from Everlasting. ("Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Jehovah God said: ("Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Jesus Christ said: ("Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." ("Revelation 1:18 Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Hosanna in the Highest! Jesus is Jehovah!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following excerpt taken from Jesus Christ our Creator: A Biblical Defence of the Trinity by Jonathan Sarfati at http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4222.asp

Some Objections to the Trinity Answered

Despite the clear Biblical evidence for the Trinity, some cults have objections based on misunderstandings of Scripture.

Jesus said: ‘My Father is greater (meizon) than I’ (John 14:28). But this refers to the Father’s greater position in Heaven, not superior nature. Philippians 2:5–11 states that Jesus had equality by nature with God, but voluntarily took on the lower position of a servant. The same arguments apply to related passages about Jesus submitting to His Father’s will.

The word ‘better’ (kreitton) would have been used to describe superiority in nature if this is what had been meant. Indeed, kreitton is used to describe Jesus’ superiority in His very nature to the angels (Hebrews 1:4). The distinction can be illustrated in the human realm by the role of the Prime Minister — he is greater than us in position, but he is still a human being like us, so is not better in nature.

Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son.

‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘first created’; the Greek for the latter is protoktisis, while firstborn is prototokos. In fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things.

Jesus is Son of God. From this, some cults try to show that Jesus is somehow less than God. But in Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28). Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).

Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16). The Greek word translated ‘only-begotten’ is monogenes, which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7).

This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old.
[/b]

C'est fini!

@kobesosimi, thanks for that exposition. I hope our friends will have good material to think through now. Bless.

[color=#770077][/color] the scripture says tha no man can say Jesus is Lord unless he is under d infulence of the holy sprit.

Jesus is LORD N GOD of all nation!!! belive it or not!

pls, read to the end

babs 787, its not ur fault, but i blame u 4 not desiring 2 be informed.

Now, humans are made up of the soul, spirit and, the body. i.e, they are trium being,without any of these parts, non of us will functn. in thesame manner, there is God the father, the son, and the holy spirit. all these work 2gether 4 just one purpose. but above all is God the father. in the book of Gen. God said US make man in OUR image and afta OUR likeness, this statement will point out the fact that God the father was not alone. also, wen ever God the father said LET THERE BE - the holy spirit moves 2 bring Gods words to being. But to answer ur question if Jesus is God. are u aware u are a god urself, YES, the son of a lion looks and takes afta a lion, so also, the sons of God looks and takes afta, God. This is the authority Jesus had /has wen He said "I am God" because He nos the son of whom He is.


1 love



Odebode Olumide Kelvin.

@olusleeky

God said US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness, this statement will point out the fact that God the father was not alone.

Some questions for you.

What is the image of God?

When the Jews wanted to kill him, who did he prayed to at Gethsemane

Who did he shout to that, 'my God why has thou forsaken me

When he died (as claimed by you), who resurrected him?


When you are through with the above, we will go into other issues

@ blabs787

Why are you such a sneaky hypocrite if indeed all you are doing is "propagating the truth"? Why did you abandon the thread where mohammed and his many lies and "miracles" were exposed? Could it be you could no longer stand the heat so u ran to a more or less dead thread to resurect your question-asking career?

How did mohammed die? - you ran away after giving frivolous excuses

Where are mohammed's miracles? - you fled after islam's inconsistency and falsehood was exposed.

Is there salvation in islam? - you merely listed details of your rituals and promptly fled.

Now here u are asking questions about Jesus! Answer your questions first then we can begin to take you lying cheat serious.

Jesus said" if u seee me , then u have seen the father",,he also said " i will leave u with the comforter" , God is trinity and divine.

davidylan:

@ blabs787

Why are you such a sneaky hypocrite if indeed all you are doing is "propagating the truth"? Why did you abandon the thread where mohammed and his many lies and "miracles" were exposed? Could it be you could no longer stand the heat so u ran to a more or less dead thread to resurect your question-asking career?

How did mohammed die? - you ran away after giving frivolous excuses

Where are mohammed's miracles? - you fled after islam's inconsistency and falsehood was exposed.

Is there salvation in islam? - you merely listed details of your rituals and promptly fled.

Now here u are asking questions about Jesus! Answer your questions first then we can begin to take you lying cheat serious.

@davidylan,

I've also wondered with careful observation about why babs787 keeps hopping from thread to thread and dodging questions these days. Even when people try to be reasonable with him and address some of his questions (most of which do not even deserve any answers), he runs around with even more of his games in hope that readers would either be left confused or just tired out.

"Christians claim that in the birth of Jesus there occurred the miracle of the incarnation of God in the form of a human being. To say that God became truly a human being invites a number of questions. Let us ask the following about the alleged truly man- truly god Jesus. What happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)? Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose as with any human piece of flesh? During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood shed from wounds? Did the cells of his body die as in ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God. By definition, not mystery, the everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose: "For I the Lord do not change" (Malachi 3:6). Did Jesus' flesh dwell in safety after his death? 1 Peter 3:18 states Jesus was "put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:44-45 claims Jesus was "raised a spiritual body," that is, he "became a life-giving spirit." No mention of the survival of the flesh is alluded to. In Acts 2:31, it is claimed Peter stated that following the alleged resurrection Jesus' body did not see decay. Paul is alleged to have also made this claim (Acts 13:34-37). However, unless Jesus' body never underwent "decay" during his lifetime he could not be God, but if it did not undergo "decay" then he was not truly human."  www.jewsforjudaism.org

ascribing Jesus as same with God is utter and profound blasphemy PERIOD!!!!!!

IDINRETE:

"Christians claim that in the birth of Jesus there occurred the miracle of the incarnation of God in the form of a human being. To say that God became truly a human being invites a number of questions. Let us ask the following about the alleged truly man- truly god Jesus. What happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)? Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose as with any human piece of flesh? During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood shed from wounds? Did the cells of his body die as in ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God. By definition, not mystery, the everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose: "For I the Lord do not change" (Malachi 3:6). Did Jesus' flesh dwell in safety after his death? 1 Peter 3:18 states Jesus was "put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:44-45 claims Jesus was "raised a spiritual body," that is, he "became a life-giving spirit." No mention of the survival of the flesh is alluded to. In Acts 2:31, it is claimed Peter stated that following the alleged resurrection Jesus' body did not see decay. Paul is alleged to have also made this claim (Acts 13:34-37). However, unless Jesus' body never underwent "decay" during his lifetime he could not be God, but if it did not undergo "decay" then he was not truly human."  www.jewsforjudaism.org

ascribing Jesus as same with God is utter and profound blasphemy PERIOD!!!!!!

Then it is these same Jews themselves (from your article) who actually pronounced the blasphemy that anger them.

Is it not written in their Scriptures that God appeared as a MAN??

#1. Who was it that "wrestled" with Jacob - the patriarch of the Jewish nation?? (Gen. 32:24-30).

#2. Who is the "son" and "child" to be born, whose NAME is the MIGHTY GOD?? (Isaiah 9:6).

#3. Who appeared as three MEN to Abraham, the father of the Jews?? (Gen. 18:1-2).

#4. WHO other than the same GOD said the Jews would look upon ME, whom they have pierced? (Zech. 12:10).

If the same God of the Jews has revealed Himself in the Scriptures of the Jews as appearing as a MAN, what are the vexations of these unscholarly modern religious noise makers going to change in their holy Books??

@pilgrim.1, good points there.

IDINRETE:

Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose as with any human piece of flesh? During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood shed from wounds? Did the cells of his body die as in ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God.

Psalm 16:10
"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

Acts 2:27 & 31
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption . . .

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

@stimulus
you ommitted this part from your reply "What happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)?"

can you give an answer to the question?

@IDINRETE,

Are you one of those Jews whose article you reposted? If you are, or one of their celebrated fans, then take a look again at Psalm 16:10 and understand that it is part of the Jewish Scriptures.

Besides, if these same Jews can afford to question their own Scriptures, no one should lose sleep over that. You may as well as ask more mundane questions from Genesis to Malachi; at the end of the day, we would still have great respect and pity for those chaps.

BTW, did pilgrim.1's answer make any sense to you? Didn't the Jewish scriptures clearly reveal that God has appeared as MAN in the past?

Enjoy your Sunday, and try not sweating over those mundane questions - they're simply crafted by fellows who cannot read their own Scripture.

yes,he is god in human flesh.

@Davidylan & pilgrims



How did mohammed die? - you ran away after giving frivolous excuses

I didnt run. I felt that there is no need answering you because you are inclined to falsehood. His death is not controversial like that of your God Jesus. I dont participate in argument that lacks proof, evidence, facts etc.

Where are mohammed's miracles? - you fled after islam's inconsistency and falsehood was exposed.


Pilgrim requested for it and I gave her. I left the thread because it was turned to another thing. If its left for pilgrim and I, no problem but I saw that you have taken it too far, so I left you to wallow in your ignorance. If you want to learn, am here for you. Did i hear you say falsehood, ok, wait till I post more of your falsehood.


Is there salvation in islam? - you merely listed details of your rituals and promptly fled.

Unless you davidylan is blind. I have posted more than enough and I am telling you now that without you being a muslim, no salvation for you, salvation is found only in Islam.


Now here u are asking questions about Jesus! Answer your questions first then we can begin to take you lying cheat serious.

HUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHH. I sabi you very well davidylan

@pilgrims

I've also wondered with careful observation about why babs787 keeps hopping from thread to thread and dodging questions these days. Even when people try to be reasonable with him and address some of his questions (most of which do not even deserve any answers), he runs around with even more of his games in hope that readers would either be left confused or just tired out.

I will appreciate it if you and I can iron out issues without 3rd party. If you agree, its ok by me.

@Babs, how is the death of Jesus Christ controversial? He died on the Cross and Resurrected on the third day, based on the Gospel, that has proven to be true. Despite assaults on Christianity, the religious movement is growing by leaps and bounds all over the world. The Da Vinci code, while living upto its hype has gradually losts its steam in the country. So tell me, if Jesus Christ did not die, or there was foul play, why is it that in today's technology and advancement, there has not been any concrete proof to substantiate this allegations.\

Rather than engaging in frivolous debate, I hope you accept the established FACT that Jesus Christ Died physically, and Rose physically, for the sake of Salvation for the human race.

@ndipe

Insert Quote
@Babs, how is the death of Jesus Christ controversial? He died on the Cross and Resurrected on the third day, based on the Gospel, that has proven to be true. Despite assaults on Christianity, the religious movement is growing by leaps and bounds all over the world. The Da Vinci code, while living upto its hype has gradually losts its steam in the country. So tell me, if Jesus Christ did not die, or there was foul play, why is it that in today's technology and advancement, there has not been any concrete proof to substantiate this allegations.\

Read more about Jesus:

[b]INTRODUCTION TO THE GNOSTIC CHRIST

The Essene Nazorean Christ is not quite the same as the Romanized Jesus propogated by the New Testament and modern Christianity. Original Gnostic Christianity had a deeper and better understanding of the real historical Jesus before the coverup and falsification of the record by the Pauline school. In addition, the Nazorean office of Christ is filled by both Yeshu (Jesus) and his female counterpart Maria. On this page we will concentrate on the male aspect of Christ. Correctly identifying the Essene culture and backdrop of Christ's life and teachings is an important component of identifying the true tradition, as is identification of the correct historical record. Jesus WAS NOT a Jew or a believer in the Law of Moses! The New Testament IS NOT an accurate portrayal of His life. He was NOT resurrected in his body which was entombed in Jerusalem next to Miriamne and other members of his family. Yeshu was vegetarian and taught a unique form of Nazorean Gnosis called Nazirutha. The Order of O:N:E: is committed to restoring the original Jesus and the form of Buddhist Christianity expounded by His true sucessors such as the prophet Mani. [/b]

Read more from
http://essenes.net/subindex8.htm



Rather than engaging in frivolous debate, I hope you accept the established FACT that Jesus Christ Died physically, and Rose physically, for the sake of Salvation for the human race.


I don hear Pastor Ndipe, am putting a stop to it.

@ndipe



Early christian writings did not support the crucifixion. If you need proof I will supply you in abundance but at the same time am signing out from Muslim-christian debate.

@babs787,

babs787:

How did mohammed die? - you ran away after giving frivolous excuses

I didnt run. I felt that there is no need answering you because you are inclined to falsehood. His death is not controversial like that of your God Jesus. I don't participate in argument that lacks proof, evidence, facts etc.

The reason why you could not participate in your debate in that thread was because you lack proof, evidence, facts. Contrary to your argument there that has been challenged, Muhammad simply did NOT perform ANY miracle. Period.

babs787:

Where are mohammed's miracles? - you fled after islam's inconsistency and falsehood was exposed.

Pilgrim requested for it and I gave her. I left the thread because it was turned to another thing. If its left for pilgrim and I, no problem but I saw that you have taken it too far, so I left you to wallow in your ignorance. If you want to learn, am here for you. Did i hear you say falsehood, ok, wait till I post more of your falsehood.

The so-called evidence you gave was challenged because of its inconsistency and lack of common sense. You never returned to give any explanations to the questions that followed. And your remark should be of huge interest to YOU: "If you want to learn, am here for you." Yep, we're all here dishing out scholarly lessons for your enlightenment; sadly, you many times fail to take your own advice.

babs787:

Is there salvation in islam? - you merely listed details of your rituals and promptly fled.

Unless you davidylan is blind. I have posted more than enough and I am telling you now that without you being a muslim, no salvation for you, salvation is found only in Islam.

Let's hope that you stop deceiving yourself, babs787. We all know that there is NO salvation in Islam. Muhammad faulted all the 'promises' of 'Allah' in the Qur'an when he contradicted them in the Hadith. He went so far as to state that even he himself was not guaranteed salvation by the same criteria that the Qur'an held out for others. I've dealt with that in another thread, and here repost them:

---

Almost every religion preaches good works and deeds of righteousness - including Christianity (although we are not saved by any work of righteousness which we have done - Tit. 3:4-5).

However, I'm very aware that there are many verses in the Qur'an that predicate salvation in Islam on deeds and good works. Another example: Sura 5:9 says, "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward." And again in Sura 7:8-9, "And the measuring out on that day will be just; then as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is heavy, those are they who shall be successful. And as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is light those are they who have made their souls suffer loss because they disbelieved in Our communications."

There are many such verses, babs787, there are many such. What I cannot understand with you guys is that you fail to see how Muhammad controverted this promise of 'Allah' in the Hadith. He categorically said that Muslims are not saved by good works or deeds of righteousness; not even MUHAMMAD HIMSELF can escape that:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise.”
(i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet’s companions) said,
‘Not even you, O Allah’s Apostle?’ He said, “Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and
mercy on me. So be moderate in your religious deeds and do the deeds that are within your ability:
and none of you should wish for death, for if he is a good doer, he may increase his good deeds,
and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to Allah.”
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, Bk. 70, Num. 577).

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The deeds of ANYONE of you will not save you (from the (Hell) Fire)."
They said, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O Allah's Apostle?"
He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His Mercy on me.
Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the
forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle,
moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise)."
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8, Bk. 76, Num. 470).

There are several other Hadith verses that speak to the same point. But there again, apart from deeds of righteousness, what about the question of SIN?? Muslims often accuse Christians as being the grossest of sinners on the face of the earth; but was Muhammad any better when he admitted to his sins and turning in repentance to Allah over seventy times DAILY? This is not some peripheral claim, babs787; and I'd like you to see for yourself how Muhammad dealt with SIN among Muslims:

Narrated Abu Dharr:

The Prophet said, Gabriel came to me and gave me the glad tidings that anyone who died
without worshipping anything besides Allah, would enter Paradise. I asked (Gabriel),
‘Even if he committed theft, and even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse?’
He said, ‘(Yes), even if he committed theft, and even if he Committed illegal sexual intercourse.”
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 93, # 579).

Quite to the contrary, the righetous Lord of heaven and earth will not let sin abide His presence. He offers His forgiveness and cleaning of sin in the Name of Jesus Christ the sinless One; and NO worshipper of 'Allah' who dies in their sins (theft, illegal sexual intercourse, etc. included) will EVER enter into paradise:

"For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" (Rev. 22:15).

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor. 6:9-10)

---

babs787:

I've also wondered with careful observation about why babs787 keeps hopping from thread to thread and dodging questions these days. Even when people try to be reasonable with him and address some of his questions (most of which do not even deserve any answers), he runs around with even more of his games in hope that readers would either be left confused or just tired out.

I will appreciate it if you and I can iron out issues without 3rd party. If you agree, its ok by me.

So, what is wrong with others joining in the debate on any subject or thread? You wan continue your "taqiyya" on a private level??

@stimulus



The reason why you could not participate in your debate in that thread was because you lack proof, evidence, facts. Contrary to your argument there that has been challenged, Muhammad simply did NOT perform ANY miracle. Period.


He did perform but the problem of most you christians is that you are expecting it to be in the Quran. For God's sake, it was not written by him, so any of his saying, acts etc are the Sunnah and the Hadith. I think your sister pilgrim should know better having been muslim  




The so-called evidence you gave was challenged because of its inconsistency and lack of common sense. You never returned to give any explanations to the questions that followed. And your remark should be of huge interest to YOU: "If you want to learn, am here for you." Yep, we're all here dishing out scholarly lessons for your enlightenment; sadly, you many times fail to take your own advice.

Brother, you have not taught yourself anything let alone teaching another person. How many of your so called doctrines have been debunked by babs and non-muslims? I have told you, the Quran is the book revealed by Allah to correct the lost and corrupted bible. His miracles can only be found in the Hadith. Hear the person that wants to teach that couldnt defend his doctrines let alone teaching another person. If you need anything on Islam, am available and if you think that you can cover my eyes with false doctrines, I am available as well.

That reminds me, I asked you some questions but you havent answer them. These are the questions again

saw a post by someone saying he was crucified publicly, did his disciples witness the crucifixion?

1. Christians say that Jesus and the disciples were aware of what he came to do, if that is the case, why did the disciples not believe that he had risen from the dead?

2. If the disciples knew that Jesus had to rise, why didn’t they return to Jerusalem to see the resurrection?

3. Where was jesus crucified, Outside Jerusalem or in Jerusalem?

You should attempt them o brother.




Let's hope that you stop deceiving yourself, babs787. We all know that there is NO salvation in Islam. Muhammad faulted all the 'promises' of 'Allah' in the Qur'an when he contradicted them in the Hadith. He went so far as to state that even he himself was not guaranteed salvation by the same criteria that the Qur'an held out for others. I've dealt with that in another thread, and here repost them:

Ok, lets read on

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Almost every religion preaches good works and deeds of righteousness - including Christianity (although we are not saved by any work of righteousness which we have done - Tit. 3:4-5).

There are many such verses, babs787, there are many such. What I cannot understand with you guys is that you fail to see how Muhammad controverted this promise of 'Allah' in the Hadith. He categorically said that Muslims are not saved by good works or deeds of righteousness; not even MUHAMMAD HIMSELF can escape that:

  Narrated Abu Huraira:

     I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise.”
     (i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet’s companions) said,
     ‘Not even you, O Allah’s Apostle?’ He said, “Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and
     mercy on me. So be moderate in your religious deeds and do the deeds that are within your ability:
     and none of you should wish for death, for if he is a good doer, he may increase his good deeds,
     and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to Allah.”
     (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, Bk. 70, Num. 577).

  Narrated Abu Huraira:

     Allah's Apostle said, "The deeds of ANYONE of you will not save you (from the (Hell) Fire)."
     They said, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O Allah's Apostle?"
     He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His Mercy on me.
     Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the
     forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle,
     moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise)."
     (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8, Bk. 76, Num. 470).

This is my response too:

It has shown that you do not understand the above hadith. The prophet is saying that your deed alone cannot guarantee you Paradise. For example, there are some that do good deeds but do not believe in God, in his existence nor worship Him.

Islamic concept of salvation is not based upon good deeds, but is based primarily upon faith. In the dozens of times Allah Almighty talks in the Quran about salvation, he always states, "Those who believe and do good deeds." Belief is always mentioned before deeds or works. When one converts to Islam, one does not do it by doing some good work but rather through realizing and believing that there is but one God and Muhammed peace be upon him is his last messenger. Non-Muslims may perform good works as well, but what sets them apart from Muslims is their lack of Imaan (Aqeedah) [faith], or belief. The reason that the good works of the non-believers are worthless in the hereafter is because of their disbelief. Unless a person's imaan or aqeedah is not correct, all his good deeds are worthless.

In order to gain Paradise, belief must come first. I gave you lots of Verses on Salat as being the sole passport to Heaven. When a man die, His solat will forst be looked into before any other things.

Now after your belief, your good deeds follows as he said in the last part of the Hadith

Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the
     forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle,
     moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise)."

So you cannot say that your Paradise is guaranteed without belief in Him. Belief must come first before your good deeds. You can't worship what you don't believe in. So whether you are a believer or a non-believer, all your deeds will be shown to you be it good or bad


Quran 4 v 125:Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend.  

Also I want you to know that he forgives all sins so far you have no intention of going into it again


Quran 35v45: If God were to punish men according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily God has in His sight all His Servants.  


Quran 8:38:Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from unbelief), their past would be forgiven for them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).  

Quran 38v66:The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all between,- Exalted in Might, able to enforce His Will, forgiving again and again.  


Quran53v32:
If we are sincere, our daily sins are almost always forgiven:  "Those who avoid great sins and shameful deeds, only (falling into) small faults,- verily thy Lord is ample in forgiveness. He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth, And when ye are hidden in your mothers' wombs. Therefore justify not yourselves: He knows best who it is that guards against evil.  

Quran 4v110:If you ask Allah Almighty for forgiveness, then He'll forgive you: "If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks God's forgiveness, he will find God Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quran 14v7:If you are grateful to Allah Almighty, then He'll give you more: "And remember! your Lord caused to be declared (publicly): 'If ye are grateful, I will add more (favours) unto you; But if ye show ingratitude, truly My punishment is terrible indeed.'

Quran 39 v 53: Be sure that Allah Almighty is always Willing to forgive all of your sins:  "Say: 'O my Servants who Have transgressed against their souls!  Despair not of the Mercy of Allah:  for Allah forgives all sins for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.  


Quran 10:61 "In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Quran, and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing, We are witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear record."

Quran 99:7-8 "Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!  And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it."




There are several other Hadith verses that speak to the same point. But there again, apart from deeds of righteousness, what about the question of SIN?? Muslims often accuse Christians as being the grossest of sinners on the face of the earth; but was Muhammad any better when he admitted to his sins and turning in repentance to Allah over seventy times DAILY? This is not some peripheral claim, babs787; and I'd like you to see for yourself how Muhammad dealt with SIN among Muslims:

  Narrated Abu Dharr:

     The Prophet said, Gabriel came to me and gave me the glad tidings that anyone who died
     without worshipping anything besides Allah, would enter Paradise. I asked (Gabriel),
     ‘Even if he committed theft, and even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse?’
     He said, ‘(Yes), even if he committed theft, and even if he Committed illegal sexual intercourse.”
     (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 93, # 579).

Brother, let me explain. Heavens has grades, and you will be in any heaven depending on your belief and good deeds. Now there are some people that will taste Hell for a while and will be moved to Paradise just because they have faith and believe in God and His Messenger. An adulterer who confesses the Shahadah and died will be judged according to his belief and good work, if he deserves Hell, Allah will put him there but the time he would stay be determined by the level of his sin. Hope I have communicated?



Quite to the contrary, the righetous Lord of heaven and earth will not let sin abide His presence. He offers His forgiveness and cleaning of sin in the Name of Jesus Christ the sinless One; and NO worshipper of 'Allah' who dies in their sins (theft, illegal sexual intercourse, etc. included) will EVER enter into paradise:

"For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" (Rev. 22:15).

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor. 6:9-10)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My response again:

Firstly, if God of a believer that believes in God is condemned and doomed for Hell, tell me what kind of father is that as being claimed by you. Must a father condemn his son forever for sin committed? Islam stands on this is the best.  If you are believer but you commit any of those sin, you will be in Hell depending on the weight of your sin and will be moved to Paradise because of the belief after serving your punishment. On that day, Allah will allow the prophets, martyrs, angels and the believers to intercede for inmates of hell who testified to His ones, believe in Him but were deficient in their deeds. The Hell to them will be like a hospital established for the treatment of their painful diseases (terrible sins). Consequent upon their sufferings, there will naturally be the shrieks, cries, weeping etc.  these will not cease until the end of the treatment is reached. After their through cleansing, Allah will then allow Muslims to intercede for those Muslims saying, they are our brothers, we used to pray together, fast together, etc and Allah will tell them to remove from Hell anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one (gold) Dinar. Further, Allah will tell them to take out from the fire those that have faith equal to the weight of one and half Dinar and finally those having faith equal to the weight of an atom.

If those that have committed those sins will be in Hell, it would include David that fornicates with his neighbour’s wife, Samson that slept with Harlot, Lots Daughters, Judah, etc will inherit Hell. In Islam, they would taste hell and stay there according to the weight of their sins but will be moved to Paradise because of their faith.



Quote from: babs787 on April 23, 2007, 04:31 PM
I've also wondered with careful observation about why babs787 keeps hopping from thread to thread and dodging questions these days. Even when people try to be reasonable with him and address some of his questions (most of which do not even deserve any answers), he runs around with even more of his games in hope that readers would either be left confused or just tired out.

What questions have I doged? Hope you have not forgotten my questions up, you need to answer them o.


So, what is wrong with others joining in the debate on any subject or thread? You wan continue your "taqiyya" on a private level??

Never mind, it doesnt matter, let everybody participate. Ar you ok now

the tpoic here is 'Is Jesus God?'
i think u need to be reminded to keep this in mind as the diversion to islam has lasted to long.

omot208:

the tpoic here is 'Is Jesus God?'
i think u need to be reminded to keep this in mind as the diversion to islam has lasted to long.

That's just trademark with them. A question is asked, and then the next you know, there are diversion-hungry chaps who will often want to steer discussions off topics and into Islam.

@babs787,

babs787:

He did perform but the problem of most you christians is that you are expecting it to be in the Quran. For God's sake, it was not written by him, so any of his saying, acts etc are the Sunnah and the Hadith. I think your sister pilgrim should know better having been muslim  

What a laugh! You as a Muslim should know that the cover-up in Islam is beginning to wane like a weather-beaten sheet in the harmattan breeze.

My challenge is simple, and up until NOW you have been unable to face up to it!

If the Qur'an - a book from the acclaimed 'all-knowing and all-seeing Allah' of Islam - was NOT ABLE to record even one miracle of Muhammad in it, then there is no miracle of Muhammad you can defend OUTSIDE of the Qur'an!

The Qur'an clearly recorded that Jesus performed miracles; why then is there not a single verse in the same Qur'an testifying that Muhammad performed one?? Dribble all you want and all you can; but you can't thrash this one through a narrow corridor.

Muhammad performed NO miracle at all - if NOT in the Qur'an, then definitely not outside the Qur'an. Period.

babs787:

Brother, you have not taught yourself anything let alone teaching another person. How many of your so called doctrines have been debunked by babs and non-muslims? I have told you, the Quran is the book revealed by Allah to correct the lost and corrupted bible. His miracles can only be found in the Hadith. Hear the person that wants to teach that couldnt defend his doctrines let alone teaching another person. If you need anything on Islam, am available and if you think that you can cover my eyes with false doctrines, I am available as well.

May God open your eyes that you may perceive the truth. The "LOST Bible" is the same one that you muslims have been trying so hard to prove from Deut. 18 that Muhammad was the Prophet to come! Why is it so easy for you guys to double-speak and be so inconsistent??

What year exactly was the Bible LOST?? Which one did Muhammad use in his day? Why do Muslims constantly use the same Bible today to prove that Muhammad was the Prophet of Deut. 18, and try to force-interpolate him into John 14 & 16?

Your claim to have debunked the doctrines of Christianity is hilarious, when infact you have not been able to hold out even one of the questions in the several threads I opened for discussion? Is it the 99 names of Allah where Muhammad clearly misled Muslims? Or the miracles of Muhammad that 'Allah' did not record in even one verse in his Qur'an? Or the challenge that the Qur'an cannot survive on its own without the Hadith? Or the missing books of the Qur'an?

Your roundabout denials and dribbling are not helping your cause. You may praise yourself as much as you like, but you really elicit pity for not realizing how very weak are your arguments.

babs787:

That reminds me, I asked you some questions but you havent answer them. These are the questions again

saw a post by someone saying he was crucified publicly, did his disciples witness the crucifixion?

1. Christians say that Jesus and the disciples were aware of what he came to do, if that is the case, why did the disciples not believe that he had risen from the dead?

2. If the disciples knew that Jesus had to rise, why didn’t they return to Jerusalem to see the resurrection?

3. Where was jesus crucified, Outside Jerusalem or in Jerusalem?

You should attempt them o brother.

Just one question for you, babs787:

WHO was the person that Muslims claim was substituted in place of Jesus on the cross? WHO IS THAT PERSON??

babs787:

It has shown that you do not understand the above hadith. The prophet is saying that your deed alone cannot guarantee you Paradise. For example, there are some that do good deeds but do not believe in God, in his existence nor worship Him.

As one who wasn't formerly a Muslim, I still admire the insight of stimulus. There is no line in that hadith where Muhammad used the word "alone"; so your attempt to placate this issue is further debunked by the fact he said that one who committed THEFT and ILLEGAL sexual intercourse would still enter paradise - without even the thought of repenting before such a person died!!

If we had read that Muhammad indicated such a person must repent of his sin (theft, sexual immorality, etc) before hoping for paradise, you would have made a point in your argument. However, truth be told: the criteria for entering paradise in Islam is INCONSISTENT. Not to even mention the fact that Muhammad categorically said that NO MUSLIM will escape entering hell!!

That is why I questioned the notion that someone who strives to be righteous on earth as a muslim would still enter HELL! And that is why, even though Muslims do not desire to go to hell, they still can't come to trusting the true Gospel of Jesus Christ - He who promised that the righteous would never enter hell! (Luke 16:26).

babs787:

The reason that the good works of the non-believers are worthless in the hereafter is because of their disbelief. Unless a person's imaan or aqeedah is not correct, all his good deeds are worthless.

. . .and even if a person's aqeedah is correct, are his sins of any worth to merit paradise? The issue here is that Muhammad predicated a person's entry into paradise on his belief at the expense of that person's SINS!

From Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 93, # 579, it is like saying:

Will I enter paradise if my aqeedah is not Islamic but my deeds are righteous? Your answer: NO!

Then, will I enter paradise if my aqeedah is Islamic even if I committed THEFT and ILLEGAL sexual intercourse? Your answer:

Read that hadith again: the clear statement there is that as long as one's belief is Islamic monotheism, then he qualifies for paradise, EVEN IF he or she is a thief or sex pervert!! How can you defend that hadith? It is clearly saying what it did - and that is why I applaud stimulus' argument.

babs787:

Also I want you to know that he forgives all sins so far you have no intention of going into it again

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 93, # 579 counters that idea and does not remotely hint on repentance; not to even mention forgiveness of sins. There cannot be a talk of committing theft and illegal sexual intercourse at the same time speak of 'forgiveness of sins' what that hadith is infact saying the direct opposite.

babs787:

Quran53v32:
If we are sincere, our daily sins are almost always forgiven:  "Those who avoid great sins and shameful deeds, only (falling into) small faults,- verily thy Lord is ample in forgiveness. He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth, And when ye are hidden in your mothers' wombs. Therefore justify not yourselves: He knows best who it is that guards against evil.

Sin is sin - even one "small sin" can land someone in hell!

babs787:

Brother, let me explain. Heavens has grades, and you will be in any heaven depending on your belief and good deeds.

This is the very issue that prompted my opening another thread about Muhammad and The Other Prophets. Why is it that the typical Muslim theological belief is that non-muslims will remain in hell, even if they believe in God and do righteous deeds? So, depending on people's beliefs, as long as they believe in God (even if it is not the islamic god), then somehow they would still be in one "grade" of heaven or the other?

babs787:

Now there are some people that will taste Hell for a while and will be moved to Paradise just because they have faith and believe in God and His Messenger.

Which confirms my assertion earlier: ALL muslims will enter hell - and that is an Islamic doctrine!!

babs787:

An adulterer who confesses the Shahadah and died will be judged according to his belief and good work, if he deserves Hell, Allah will put him there but the time he would stay be determined by the level of his sin. Hope I have communicated?

I had hoped you would communicate. But then, you have come round confirming another point in my assertion: a muslim who dies in his or her sins (theft and illegal sexual intercourse) is said to be qualified for paradise. See?

babs787:

Firstly, if God of a believer that believes in God is condemned and doomed for Hell, tell me what kind of father is that as being claimed by you.

Truth be told: that is not what stimulus claimed! Quite on the contrary, we should be asking what kind of "god" the Muslim religion preaches, who stated that his law is to make sure that every single Muslim enters hell!

There is no verse in the Bible that states what you are trying to assert; for God the Father did not condemn and/or doom believers for hell! If you think I am mistaken, please help provide the verse.

babs787:

Must a father condemn his son forever for sin committed? Islam stands on this is the best.  If you are believer but you commit any of those sin, you will be in Hell depending on the weight of your sin and will be moved to Paradise because of the belief after serving your punishment.

So what is the criteria that qualifies a Muslim to NOT enter into hell at all??

babs787:

On that day, Allah will allow the prophets, martyrs, angels and the believers to intercede for inmates of hell who testified to His ones, believe in Him but were deficient in their deeds.

Please, babs787, try not cheating your readers with UNOTHODOX views of Islam like Ali Yussuf did in his English translation of the Qur'an. Muhammad's claim to be an intercessor to Muslims is a fallacy - he blurted out that he would be unable to save anyone from Allah's wrath! You should know better as a Muslim!

babs787:

If those that have committed those sins will be in Hell, it would include David that fornicates with his neighbour’s wife, Samson that slept with Harlot, Lots Daughters, Judah, etc will inherit Hell. In Islam, they would taste hell and stay there according to the weight of their sins but will be moved to Paradise because of their faith.

Did you realize that those saints are not Muslims at all? David, Judah, Samson, etc asked forgiveness and repented - they did not die in their sins!! They did not rejoice in the suggestion we read of in Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 93, # 579. This is why I again and again have asked as others have: where are the Psalms of David in the Qur'an, if you claim that they are LOST!! Your Qur'an says you should believe in them (even though you calim they are lost!).

babs787:

What questions have I doged?

Those in the several threads I opened.

babs787:

Hope you have not forgotten my questions up, you need to answer them o.

I took time to address them. Scroll up again and read them.

@babs787,

babs787:

Read more about Jesus:

[b]INTRODUCTION TO THE GNOSTIC CHRIST

The Essene Nazorean Christ is not quite the same as the Romanized Jesus propogated by the New Testament and modern Christianity. Original Gnostic Christianity had a deeper and better understanding of the real historical Jesus before the coverup and falsification of the record by the Pauline school. In addition, the Nazorean office of Christ is filled by both Yeshu (Jesus) and his female counterpart Maria. On this page we will concentrate on the male aspect of Christ. Correctly identifying the Essene culture and backdrop of Christ's life and teachings is an important component of identifying the true tradition, as is identification of the correct historical record. Jesus WAS NOT a Jew or a believer in the Law of Moses! The New Testament IS NOT an accurate portrayal of His life. He was NOT resurrected in his body which was entombed in Jerusalem next to Miriamne and other members of his family. Yeshu was vegetarian and taught a unique form of Nazorean Gnosis called Nazirutha. The Order of O:N:E: is committed to restoring the original Jesus and the form of Buddhist Christianity expounded by His true sucessors such as the prophet Mani. [/b]

Thanks again for supplying readers with one more reason why I left Islam FOREVER!!

By posting that excerpt above, are you trying to convince readers that the GNOSTIC Jesus of the Essene is the very one YOU believe in - the very same one that the QUR'AN proclaims??

It is such a pity that you take pleasure in deriding Jesus Christ at just about any instance and in any way that suits your calumny. Little do you realize that, not only are your efforts counter-productive, they are also anti-Islamic, anti-Qur'anic, and anti-hadithic.

May God lead your heart to true repentance from your ungodliness, and help you see that Jesus Christ the Son of God is the ONLY Saviour and hope for your soul.

kai kajissou wahalan banza kawai,am not against anybodys religion all i bielive's jesus'z just a prophet like the others he'z not God he'z a prophet just like anabi moussa and the rest.

Blabber-worth still at it. . .