If water baptism is a must, what then is the significance of believers not being baptized?

WesleyanA:

You don't even have an argument. except: quran mentions 72 virgins therefore the religion must be bad.

I know this is not your idea as it is an inference to one in your discussant. However, the Qur'an does not mention the specific number of virgins to be awarded those who fight others and die in *Allah's cause. Rather, it is in the Hadith that a specified number of harems are mentioned.

The point is that, Muhammad claimed to have been sent by the same God of the Biblical prophets. When he could not defend his convoluted claims in light of the character of that same God and the deportment of His prophets, he resorted to violence, blind hatred and sexual perversion as means of propagating his religion.

WesleyanA:

what if there hadn't been a feminist revolution? what if women haven't gained rights yet (these were once radical ideas to conservative christians)

Feminism is antithetical to Biblical revelation and appeals only to restless women who themselves have failed to see the beauty of their calling in Scripture.

WesleyanA:

what if they're place in society was still as housewives and nothing more (mind you, christianity didn't bring women rights)

Women were never in bondage nor reserved as recruits for the kitchen; and any claim that Christianity didn't bring women rights is a weak assumption stemming from a closed mind to the open revelation of Scripture.

WesleyanA:

will we still have qualms with the qurans' 72 virgins for each man?

Yes, we still do - back then in Muhammad's day; in the present (Pakistani women raped and punished by Islamic law, for example); and in the hereafter when women will be reserved only for the purpose of satisfying the base pleasures of ardent Muslim males.

WesleyanA:

funny how when I was in Nigeria, when muslims and christians argued on religion, 72 virgins or gender bias issues never usually came up (except when people who've visited or witnessed other countries discussed it).

You're quite perceptive on that, as I only became quite sensitized about the issue after having been exposed to a broader context of religious persuasions and practices.

WesleyanA:

the only things that usually locally came up was how muslims did sharia or sacrificed cows. lol and this coming from christians.

Sharia is not the main issue of Christian and non-Christian concerns in religious discourses. It is rather the whole pedestal upon which Islam rests: Muhammad's claim as a true prophet of God and Islam as the only right religion before that same God!

WesleyanA:

we've been westernized and know our place in society, our rights as females e.t.c so we can stand up to the bias that's still practiced in the muslim AND AFRICAN nations.

The bias runs rife as well in Christianized and secular societies and cultures of the West and Europe!

WesleyanA:

but does that mean that all muslims and Africans are uncivilized and don't respect their females? NO!!

Applause!! You're very correct there, gurl!

@LuckyCO,

Sorry it is a bit late. However, I'll set to task on that and ensure that you get it no later than tonight. Thanks for your kind patience.

One of the reasons for the discrepancies and contradictions in the Qur'an is the fact that there are several deities worshipped in Islam - a chief deity called *Allah; and his three daughter goddesses who are subordinate to him.

Thanks @Backslider.

However, I didn't quite understand this line in your post:

Backslider:

He was never Created he Created himself he was however born of a woman and this makes him a man and a complete man. His himanity and God ness are available in his life

Perhaps you might want to rephrase the emboldened line, because it sounds to me like you are saying that Jesus created Himself, which i suppose you did not mean.

For those who only see Jesus Christ as a created being or the first of God's creation, I have often asked for an interpretation of Revelation 22:12 - "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." If the One who is coming quickly is the Lord Jesus Christ as seen in Rev. 22:20, what did He mean by referring to Himself as the Alpha and Omega - the same title that the Almighty uses for Himself (Rev. 1:8 )?

The problem is that so many people envisage a "lesser God" when they speak of the Lord Jesus Christ - which is contrary to the testimony of Scripture. The brilliant truth of the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus (John 1:1 & 14) is that, the very same One who is called "the God of the whole earth" (Isa. 54:5) and "the Mighty God" (Isa. 9:6) in the fulness of time came in the flesh for our Redemption. If He was not God, He could not make the claims of deity that we have severally outlined.

Jesus is Lord. He is God manifest in flesh, the Emmanuel revealed as God with us, and the very One who is the God of the whole earth!

Here they are:

                     ****************##*******************

Creation:

(a) Allah's Daughters

Sura 6 vs.94
"And behold! ye come to Us bare and alone as We created you for the first time. . ."

Sura 7 vs.11
"It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate." (Notice here that the angels are a different class of beings from the speakers - *allah's daughters).

Sura 23 vs.12
"Verily We created man from a product of wet earth"

(b) The Chief Deity, *Allah
(Notice the singular pronoun used)

Sura 64 vs.2
"It is He Who has created you; and of you are some that are Unbelievers, and some that are Believers: and Allah sees well all that ye do."

Sura16 vs.4
"He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!"


                     ****************##*******************

Worship:

(a) Allah's Daughters

Qur'an 21 vs.73
"And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve"  (transl. by Pickthal: "and they were worshippers of Us (alone)".

So, here is a verse that Muslims need to carefully consider: who are the US that they worship? Does "worshippers of US alone" sound like the absolute monotheism claimed in Islam?


(b) The Chief Deity, *Allah

Qur'an 29 vs.56
"O My servants who believe! truly, spacious is My Earth: therefore serve ye Me - (and Me alone)!"


                     ****************##*******************

Prayer:

(a) Allah's Daughters

Qur'an 10 vs.12
"When trouble toucheth a man, he crieth unto Us (in all postures)- lying down on his side, or sitting, or standing. But when We have solved his trouble, he passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that touched him! thus do the deeds of transgressors seem fair in their eyes!"

(b) The Chief Deity, *Allah

Qur'an 17 vs. 110
!Say: Call upon Allah or call upon, the Beneficent Allah; whichever you call upon, He has the best names; and do not utter your prayer with a very raised voice nor be silent with regard to it, and seek a way between these."




From the foregoing, no one can miss the pretended polytheism in Islam. On the one hand, shirk is expressly forbidden; on the other hand, joining partners with *allah is only allowed on the grounds that no other jinni or angel is permitted to be associated with the chief deity except *allah's three daughter godesses.

Islam leads a very dubious polytheism that does not guarantee its worshppiers a clear path to salvation before the one true and living God.

There we go - none of them will be able to defend the case of Islam's polytheism. This lie that the Queen of England uses the same plural pronouns "WE", "US" and "OUR" as a term of royal majesty to address the populace will not wash the paganistic background of Islam. The imams and other Islamic leaders pandering such ideas to cover up these issues are not helping their cause at all.

Anyone reading the Qur'an with an open mind will not fail to see that there are several deities speaking to Muhammad, all claiming equal status with the chief deity, *Allah. In some cases they recognize the special status of the latter; but the conclusive point is that Islam establishes a religion that is convulated in its claims of absolute monotheism.

One of the most heinous sins recognised in Islam is called "shirk" (the joining of partners with the chief deity *Allah), and it risks unforgiveness with a grievous punishment:

Qur'an 4:48
"Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed."

Qur'an 5:73
"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."

Well, the truth is that *Allah is not one of three in a Trinity, but he is one of four (*Allah and his three daughter goddesses who use the plural pronouns 'WE', 'US' and 'OUR')! Muhammad supposedly denounced the Christian doctrine of the Trinity without even understanding what it entails: "And behold! Allah will say: 'O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" (Q. 5:116). However, the Trinity has never included Mary; rather the Bible itself shows that the Trinity consist of the Father, the Son (the Word or Logos) and the Spirit (I John 5:7).

What is remarkable is that while the "shirk" is expressly forbidden by *allah, it is nonetheless the very same thing that exists on the pages of the Qur'an. In other words, the very thing that Muhammad's *allah expressly forbids is yet the very same thing that he approves! The several verses already highlighted in previous posts show conclusively that many gods exist in Islam as regards matters of creation, worship, and prayer. Notice the plural pronouns used by these many deities claiming the same works and status as the chief deity *Allah, as we shall see in just a moment.

Lol, @Wes. . .

Of course, I understood where you're coming from and wouldn't like to stretch it by dragging on any arguments. Yeah, like I said before, loads of people have labelled me variously - and you won't believe that some of them are actually Muslims. So, I'd take that quip as a teaser that Muslims don't swear - they do. You haven't heard half the story when they gather for a so-called protest against the 'infidels'.

All the same, we had fun and good exchanges. Have a very enjoyable night.

WesleyanA:

I don't think any deluded person will call his/herself deluded. remember how they used to say "mad people don't believe they're mad"

Precisely - and I'm just about wondering if that is self-descriptive about you (and sincerely, I wouldn't even wish it so by any stretch).

WesleyanA:

Muslims win hands down in their practicality is what I intended and then I realized that you guys will misinterprete me so i took it out.

Nevermind, we're all misunderstood one way or the other; and in the arena of fair reason we just never get lucky these days about reading entries that mean what they say and say what they mean. This applies both ways, trust me, as I'm not erudite enough as not to make mistakes.

WesleyanA:

doesn't matter anyways. The second line of my post mentions the same thing in a more understandable way.

Okay.

WesleyanA:

They pray more, etc and follow their faith more than christians do.

What a laugh. You really have a small view of what prayer means to practising Christians. Muslims gather five times a day for prayers in open squares and mosques doesn't prove that Christians pray less. I personally know Christians who are committed in prayer far more beyond the outward expression by which you measure their Muslim counterparts.

WesleyanA:

That's not judging religion. It's judging practicing believers. Muslims does not equal Islam

Let's just take this as grown-ups. Where is the Muslim without Islam? In real Islamic ideology, you just do not separate the one from the other - and any Muslim will tell you that. The Muslim who denies that may do so just for the sake of arguments, and not because it holds true.

WesleyanA:

I never called Ruth, Deborah or Sarah God. don't twist my words.

You sounded like it, so don't lose your cool about it.

WesleyanA:

Men are prominently mentioned because the book was written centuries ago and the perceptions of the people then were almost extremely biased gender-wise (according to today's standards), so there!

Applause. And where does that leave the winning side - Muslim or Islam??

WesleyanA:

People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Both ways. Actually I throw rocks!!
Ok, Wes. . . just chill. I've been pelted one too many times, and who says one can't have some fun and see the brighter side of life?

WesleyanA:

If you believe muslims are delusional, they also believe that YOU are delusional.

Not new, and no big deal, actually. Before I became a Christian, I heard that being blared endlessly by Muslim clerics. What is quaint is that the R-IQ of those folks on Nairaland is unmatched, thankfully.

WesleyanA:

That's why i said everyone is delusional in his/her own way.

You mean. . . like yours? Okay, I actually don't waste time on that and can focus on vital issues on just about any topic.

The thing is, there's this idea that people banter words about so that Islam is given a cosmetic face-lift. Good for anyone who is deluded enough to miss the obvious, as long as they allow me to suffer my own delusion to reject the pretended claims of the Quraish prophet.

All the same, cheers Wes.

WesleyanA:

everyone is deluded in his or her own way.

I presume that pretty much sums up your own delusion, judging from the fact that you neither know for certain what both faiths are actually about.

WesleyanA:

I personally don't judge religion. just look at the people's good and moral deeds as well as the level of their practicality. Muslims win hand down on this.

Lol, you personally don't judge religion. . . then at the end you judged what you claim you don't.

WesleyanA:

why is God refered to as "HE" in the bible always. why aren't there any much females and all that except for the few Ruth, Deborah, Sarah etc compared to the plethora of males.

Neither Ruth, nor Deborah, nor Sarah are God - there. The fact that they're mentioned should set the stage as to why no woman is prominently mentioned as playing a historical part in Islamic theological eschatology.

WesleyanA:

and they'll call others delusional

In just precisely the way they've demonstrated the point to be called such.

Tee-hee-hee! i'll retain that one as well.

Hmmm, but that does not disprove those miracles that happen in pastor Chris' ministry.

Lol, good point @babyosisi. Thing is that I'm on hols in N9ija, not scared at all; and would soon be returning to school outside.

babyosisi:

In case the thick muske missed it.

I John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

No, she would come back with some unsubstantiated tales sold her by her "researchers" who haven't read the Bible at all. Anyone can just close their eyes, dream some tales and publish some critical softsell paperback to expose their R-IQ. For effect again, let's review muske's quote again:

muske:

The Bible does not give us a doctrine of a trinity, the historical record shows that modern Christian trinitarian beliefs were not formulated until about 300 years after the death of Jesus Christ.

Did she ever check the Bible to verify that claim at all? Okay, here again for you, muske:

I John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

That was written, not 300 years after the death of Jesus as your "scholars" claimed; but in the very same century in which Jesus lived and ministered. So, where did they ever get the idea that the Bible did not give us a doctrine of a Trinity??

muske:

The coequal, coeternal, one substance, three in one trinity is not a Christian Biblical doctrine; yet there are those who insist that it is the cornerstone of Christianity

Here again are 1st century Biblical texts that deflate your scholars' cheap interjections, muske:

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 5:21 - "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will."

John 5:23 - "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

John 10:30 - "I and my Father are one."

John 17:5 - "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Notice that all these are from just one of the apostles who followed Jesus in the first century; not to mention what the other apostles wrote about Him. Do yourself a fav when you quote texts next time: make sure they don't expose you to ridicule and duplicity.

Okay, sir.

lol, @babyosisi,

Uhmmm, well. . . it's all part of the mystery.

Some guys who have been 'dreaming dreams' and prophesying some magic formula over me don't seem to have kept me going as much as these gentlemen on NL. Well, maybe one day soon, some kinda formula will bring about some equation on the Forum. . . but that is some time to come.

lol, @mrpataki.

That one line to JAMES should not be understood as polarised to a specific gender between the sexes. It seemed to me that he didn't quite know where he was coming from, and I thought if we started with just one aspect, he might begin to see some sense.

In hindsight, most of the concerns about dress codes that lead to stumbling among the brethren could be viewed from the fact that women sometimes dress provocatively - and most that do so actually try to justify their seductions. Men and women ought to share equal level of concerns about the messages our dress codes are sending out. And by starting off with I Tim. 2:9, I was appealing to our gender to take this issue seriously enough to exude propriety as fitting for godly women.


Cool, and don't get pissed!

Cheers.

@mrpataki,

Hmmm, I tried saying something on those revs before, but the lawyer-girl (mlks_baby) sent me an IM to say nothing about that - until she gets her treat from me first. So. i'll just maintain for now. Hint, when you get the puzzle right, then you'll be in for some great surprises as well.

Meanwhile, I promised earlier that we could have a connection on IM later this p.m. It was an open invitation to all; but my sibblings have a few commitments that I didn't anticipate earlier. But then I'll keep you updated when this will be.

Cheers, and keep it coming.

@JAMES,

When you read I Tim. 2:9 that, "women adorn themselves in modest apparel,"does it sound to you like the Bible said it doesn't matter how we dress as Christians?

@olsmade,

There's no need to feel intimidated by asking for mild language in replies to yours. People on Nairaland are intelligent folks who are reasonable and civil enough to address issues. I think your plea is more suited to your apologists who are very often losing the plot.

In any case, can you please tell us what you have researched about Muhammad, the Qur'an and the religion of Islam? We've been to many Islamic websites and back, and might we add that we were appalled by the duplicity most muslim scholars employ to cover-up the grey areas of Muhammad.

Meanwhile, can you also take the challenge to read the life and ministry of Jesus Christ in the Bible? Can you come away after that and still see Jesus Christ as a "slave" to *allah against the backdrop of Muhammad's self-confessed sins?

@8oracle,

Thanks for your reply, but actually there doesn't seem to be any precise meaning you have given that captured the essence of the Son of God as used in Scripture for Jesus Himself.

Earlier on, you had acknowledged that the term "the Mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6 refers to the Messiah, Jesus:

8oracle:

@ shahan: Prophet Isaiah knew what he was talking about, and who he was reffering to, their expected messiah. Though a humle prophet he was ,he had no theological, or unversity education, knew the clear difference between "The Almighty God" Genesis 17vs1(Absolute) and the messiah "The mighty God" (Relative).

If, according to you, the Messiah is "The Mighty God", why does it become a tough job accepting the deity of Jesus Christ in the New Testament instead of quoting other verses out of context to try and deny His deity?

Na where dis bobo rediscover himself from??

Whoever has tried to reduce the Almighty to a democrat, huh?

And where does He canvass for politically democratised votes, hummm?

Abeg, where are the guys who are "guys" on this Forum - we need to bleach this TV01!
_{At least, until he's as white as the rest of us politicised Christians!}

I'm now in the "waiting" mode for that answer.

@twinstaiye,

Where are the miracles that Muhammad's *allah performed to bless the lives of the needy?

@babyosisi,

Many thanks for the texts that prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that Muhammad promised gay imams their debasing pleasure for lewd sex with young boys. I was able launching the sequel to the previous entry about Muhammad's lewdness and found you had anticipated me. Later in the weekend, more will come as the Quraish prophet is closely examined.

Cheers.

@muske,

I have offered severally why anyone who investigates the deity of Jesus Christ cannot miss the solid evidences of its affirmation from the Bible itself - both OT and NT. In soundbites, let me point out a few issues why these unscholarly fellows banter to ideas they can't defend:

muske:

thank God u believe in the Quran.

Not one time did I remotely insinuate that idea; and my posts severally testify my denunciation of Muhammad's tales.

muske:

can you please refer to your bible and post it here where it was said that HOLY SPIRIT WILL OVERSHADOW THEE , AND YOU WILL CONCEIVE A CHILD OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Luke 1:35 - "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Matt. 1:18 - "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

muske:

U r disturbed or confused. Uve been explained to in one of the threads but u still come here and feigned ignorance.

If I feign ignorance, it means I'm pretending to be ignorant - which is hardly the case. Use constructs that euphemise your R-IQ if nothing else suits you.

muske:

now to the issue of trinity, take your time to read and i pray Allah open your heart to the truth.

Lets look at thisDictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity "is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and engrafted on the Christian faith." And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: "The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan."

This is the classic slogan of liberal theologians who have no scholarship in the inspired Word of God, and it is not new. Several other claims have been made to sully the established testimony of Scripture concerning the deity of Jesus Christ, and to date the so-called scholars have not been able to defend their claims in light of historical antecedents. Take, for example, such texts as John 1:1, Isaiah 9:6 and Psalm 2:12, among several others. What have these scholars said about the one called "the Mighty God" in prophetic language pointing to none other than the Messiah?

Quoting isolated texts here and there is suspect of duplicity; and from all indications that is what you have done.

muske:

The Bible does not give us a doctrine of a trinity, the historical record shows that modern Christian trinitarian beliefs were not formulated until about 300 years after the death of Jesus Christ, but in pagan religions trinitarian beliefs date back to ancient Babylon, thousands of years before Jesus Christ. The coequal, coeternal, one substance, three in one trinity is not a Christian Biblical doctrine; yet there are those who insist that it is the cornerstone of Christianity.

I John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Was this verse written about 300 years after the death of Jesus Christ??

This is why I earlier stated that liberal theologians will lie and sell you more lies in an attempt to deny historical antecedents even where there are evidences that deflate their duplicity.

Davidylan,. . . lol.

@twinstaiye,
No harm meant to you, please.

But by quoting Tony Blair, you do more damage to the ordinary Iraqi Muslim psyche. Mr Blair's religious statements are many times perceived as idiosyncratic of political palaestra - if that makes any sense to you. Otherwise, where has Mr. Blair bowed down to *allah as a practising Muslim?

@mrpataki,

This 'olodo rabata' is the one you praise as the band leader - and she couldn't have seen the same thing you scholarly brought our here?

Anyway, it's just about time that Christian leaders betake themselves to this responsibility of impacting social concourses in the corridors of civil politics. However, that should not be taken as a ticket for absolute theocracy - that is only possible at the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

@muske,

What exactly would you like for me to expatiate on - the living grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, or the mascara of what Islam is in actuality?

@twinstaiye,

The reason why I didn't make any rejoinders to yours at first was to allow time for you to deduce those miracles from the Qur'an. Might I say that it is very disappointing to read your out-of-the-galaxy fantacies about the dubious claims of the Qur'an to be remotely miraculous. Let's be practical:

In the days when Jesus Christ ministered on earth, lots of folks were ill:

      * some had leprosy - and He healed them (Matt. 8:2-3)

      * some were blind - and He also healed them (Matt. 9:27-30)

      * other folks were plagued by diverse diseases and illnesses - as well he healed them all (Matt. 4:24)

      * a few helpless folks were even possessed by demons - Jesus cast out the evil spirits and healed the victims (Matt. 8:16)

      * even those who were dumb were healed by Jesus (Matt. 12:22)

      * these are not isolated few cases - He healed multitudes that followed Him (Matt. 12:15)

What is even remarkable is that Jesus Christ promised to heal anyone who is willing to believe in Him and be converted - (Matt. 13:15). He also gave power to His disciples to heal the sick, raise the dead and do many miraculous acts of His power in His Name (Matt. 10:1-8 ).

Now, let me ask: what did Muhammad do to the needy folks he encountered? Were there no sick people in Muhammad's day? How did he heal them or perform any miracles? Which one of his Caliphs or companions ever healed anyone - past and present? Where has the *allah of Muhammad ever healed anyone? Instead, all he could do was make some Quraish calculations and arrive at 19 while his errand boy Muhammad went about slaying innocent people.

Don't even try. The Qur'an is a lifeless book, has no power other than the power of idols, was not able to save Muhammad when he was poisoned, and it has shown itself that none of his promises is miraculous or guaranteed.