C'est fini!

@kobesosimi, thanks for that exposition. I hope our friends will have good material to think through now. Bless.

mrpataki:

I don start prayer on the mountain for her oh!

Okay, I trust she will see this where she's studying. She checks NL forum when she's just kidding around sometimes, but doesn't want to post anything until she's in hols. So, I'm enjoying myself for now until it's my tunr to vroom off to acada!

mrpataki:

Australia, so soon, eh yah. By the way whats the treat anyways

I'm not permitted to disclose what exactly it is, but the much I can say is that I owe her the treat as she won my bluff! Guess what? I've already bought the tickets and will be flying to her school to meet up with her so we can take off to the furthermost part of the earth!

mrpataki:

I have fallen under the anointing!

Oya, wey ushers?? Abeg stand up O!!
I no want make anybodi begin think say I be second clone to Reverend King!!

mrpataki:

Am dazzled, what question is that? Who is older?, common, I just unravelled that mystery now!

Ojoro-master!! Ravel wetin?? You are still far from reality o jare! Even mlks_baby has promised to send you a very nice gift if you can unravel it. Condition is only one guess!! If you wanna know the prize - ask her; she promised to reply you pronto!

mrpataki:

There is fire on the mountain run run run run .

Oh bother! I started running when Gehazi overtook me!! Wetin I go do now?

mrpataki:

What is heating up?

Plenty!!

mrpataki:

Am beginning to understand the prophetic visions and statements now very well!!!!!

Okay. . . so, which of the seminary you graduate from?? Here's a prophetic test: what goes up and remains there by choice??

mrpataki:

Balaam sha When there are donkeys all the way!!!!!!!!

I tire for the bobo sha!

mrpataki:

As to the spy thing, watching too much 007 movies is affecting me nowadays

There's an antidote to that: take my prescription and sit suited up in a straight-jacket as you watch "Madea - Dairy of a Black Mad Woman" by Tyler Perry!

mrpataki:

oh learnt it that spy thing from Caleb!!!!
My bad!

See why you should stay close to Momma??

babyosisi:

I love this thread for that reason too.

Thanks to goodguy!

babyosisi:

Regarding Nigeria,I urge all Christians to fast and pray.
Anyone that will not lead the country the way the Lord wants it,will be cut off in anyway the Lord deems fit.

Amin and amen!!

babyosisi:

It's time for "mountain of fire prayers" on behalf of Naija.
My man and I hope to retire to Naija in our old age
and things must change,the average man has suffered enough

E be like say you and me get the same vision! When we retire with our attire, Naija must change for the better!

babyosisi:

As for America though I have leanings towards Republican party,I love Hilary.
Oprah and Hilary are my 2 greatest female icons in America.
^{if only oprah could send me $1 million dollars}

If I back you up, you go square me 50-50 of that $1m??

@Y'all,

Seems that you've dusted me, good measure, pressed down and shaken together. . . and thank goodness gracious, I'm held in one piece!

belloti:

When the heat is too much on the religion section i come here to cool my heels.

For thy sake, we can afford to let the harmattan blow you for now. . . until brruuaaahhhaaahhhaaa!!

belloti:

Shahan, good to know am welcomed. 2007 is a crazy year politically, Lebanon, North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Sen Clinton vs Sen Obama, Buhari vs Yaradua, and on nairaland the beat goes on,

. . . and on Nairaland, it's shahan vs belloti, abi??

See what I said sometime earlier - that we can talk and yarn about anything, slap ourselves and have fun without fights?? Well, here we are - and I'm really glad you could join in in the fun. Cheers.

babs787:

2. Did Muhammad commit incest (sex with his relation)?

. . .shahan, ask for God’s forgiveness before saying and posting anything on nairaland because there are wise and knowledgeable Muslims and Christians on nairaland and you don’t have to lie in other to be accepted.

At least they can all see I didn't lie by quoting the references from the Qur'an, unless the Qur'an and Hadiths are actual frauds.

babs787:

Based on the definition above on what incest is and the verse you wrote up, I have questions for you.
1. Was Abu Bakr a relative of Prophet Muhammed or were they related by blood?
2. Was Aisha a relative of Muhammed or were they related by blood?
3. Where was the threat in his tone.

Find the answers in the verses quoted:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18
Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

Question #6
Why did Abu Bakr initially object to Muhammad's lust for underaged Aisha?

babs787:

You will never understand the above because your religion christianity never allowed you to do so since you don’t have such in it.

That's true - for my brother m4malik would never even contemplate taking me to bed, if that's what Islam teaches you.

babs787:

I even read with amusement how you Christians on nairaland attack each other despite the fact that you called yourselves Christians. The above quote unlike Christians in which catholic goes against Pentecostal, Jehovah witnesses against protestant etc, we Muslims are brothers IN FAITH (ISLAMIC MONOTHEISM). The prophet said that “we Muslims are like blocks when laying foundation and when building house, anything that affects any of the blocks, affects the other too, so likewise we Muslims. He also said “you shall not attain piety unless you wish for your brother what you wish for yourself”. I advise you to find and read about BROTHERHOOD IN ISLAM.

Titters. This "brotherhood" in the disguised monotheism of the bedouin errand-boy doesn't seem to be helping your drivel in the face of the Shiites cleaning the Sunis off the face of the earth; nevermind that the Wahhabis are just waiting in the wings to clean both groups off when the dust settles! My pity is for the remaining 68 or 69 factions that not many people know about, because they're just spectators to the whole Islamo-terror drama.

As for the various denominations in Christianity, whatever could be blamed against them, at least true believers in them know for a certain that their faith in Jesus Christ enables them pursue true righteousness on earth, with a solid hope in the home of righteousness above.

babs787:

3. Did Muhammad use the Qur'an as an licence for his lewd incest?

a.Can you bring out one issue of rape perpetrated by Prophet Muhammed (saw)?

Did you miss the "booties" (prisoners of war with whom Muhammad and his companions indiscriminately had sex with)?

babs787:

4. Did Muhammad respect the dowry rites in Aisha's case when he snatched her from her parents?.

Shahan, to you, does that mean there was no dowry rites because sheep or camel wasn’t slaughtered? Did u say snatched, where was that liar also can you tell me the age of her then?

Sometimes I wonder if you just have a penchant for wasting pages and everyone's time. No wonder not many people have the patience to read your lengthy drivel; but keep it up - it might come in handy for your Ph.D in IDT after this level. When you follow the report already quoted carefully, where was it in that verse that a dowry was paid on Aisha's behalf?

babs787:

5. Was Muhammad driven by sex even during his spiritual activities?

I advise you to go and get book on etiquette of fasting. So you don’t know that someone may kiss one’s wife during fasting. IGNORANCE IS TRULY A DISEASE.

. . . and I don't envy your ignorance, trust me. Pardon me as well if I don't fancy the vocation of a "prophet" sucking the tongue of a child-bride under the guise of fasting - who was he fasting to: his under-aged bride or his cheif deity "Allah"? Is this not the same "prophet" who alluded to the idea that three things distract a Muslim man in prayer - a dog, a woman and a horse?? Your ignorance is actually some kind of bling-bliss!

babs787:

Like I said in one of my posts, I thought you are a don in English Language but you are nothing short of a dullard.

Applause, my dear. Even so, I have not seen your own scholarship making the average mark in elementary English.

babs787:

The above quote is telling you the relationship between husband and wife with regards to when a husband comes from a journey and shouldn’t do anything with the wife until she shaves and have her hair combed. What is the issue of prophet here?

Do you have more than Muhammad as Islam's last-day prophet? One doesn't have to imagine things like a biology professor to understand that Muhammad's mind was always woven with sexcapades.

babs787:

MAY GOD’S AMGER BE ON LIARS.

Amen - the writers of the Qur'an and Hadith are already sizzling under God's anger. While the spelling is "ANGER", I do have you in my prayers that you don't fall under the divine anger like Muhammad did.

babs787:

MAY LIARS NEVER PROSPER

Amin - as above!

babs787:

7. What was Muhammad's view of women in his sexual adventures?

I don’t blame you much because you bible never explained this to you, its incomplete copied, added, subtracted, plagiarized etc. That’s why the Holy Quran is called the complete and last revelation, it contains everything you may be needing.

Right - you mean, like the abrogated verses of the Qur'an that proved too embarrassing for Muhammad; the half truths that he gave his companions that weren't for him personally (for the same reason); and the political redaction of the present Qur'an after the third Caliph Uthman burnt all the extant copies of his day after Muhammad's death, because he feared the obvious dubious duplicity was threatening the so-called coherence of Muhammad's brigand??

babs787:

No wonder jesus said he needed to go so that the “paraclete’ will come and tell you things which he failed to tell you because he was never allowed to talk then.  The holy spirit that you Christians referred to as the paraclete has never told you new things aside those of jesus’

Haven't we been through this before - with conclusive evidence to show how Muhammad failed the test and so will stand before theLord Jesus Christ to be judged in that Day?

babs787:

8. Where was Muhammad when he received the verses of the Qur'an:
. . .
The first vision was followed by a considerable period, during which Muhammad suffered much mental depression. The angel spoke to the grieved heart of hope and trust and of the bright future when he would see the people of the earth crowding into the one true faith. His destiny was unfolded to him, when, wrapped in profound meditation, melancholy and sad, he felt himself called by a voice from heaven to arise and preach.

Skill, they say, is not an essential commodity among R-IQs like you, babs787. Nevermind that you have an MIDT, but look again at the emboldened words, and ask yourself if something is not missing in a Qur'an produced by a man of mental depression, profound melancholy and sadness! I may not possess the essential skill to state the obvious, but thanks for rising up to the status of your degree!

babs787:

O you (Muhammad) enveloped (in garments)! Arise and warn! And your Lord (Allah) magnify! (74:1-3 Quran) He arose and engaged himself in the work to which he was called. Khadijah was the first to accept his mission. She was to believe in the revelations, to abandon the idolatry of her people and to join him in purity of heart and in offering up prayers to Allah the Almighty.

Wonderful that Khadijah was the first disciple of Muhammad's mental depression! Elsewhere, I've helped the case to prove that Muhammad's "Allah" was no more than the cheif deity of his 3 daughter goddesses; so it was only a refined form of the paganistic polytheism of the Orient world that Khadijah swallowed. Poor woman: if only she knew!

babs787:

, DO U STILL NEED MORE ABOUT HIS LIFE HISTORY, IF U DO, LET ME KNOW

Don't we know enough to evaluate for ourselves that the bedoiun errand-boy of the cheif deity "Allah" was nothing more than a fraud and the quintessential sex pervert he demonstrated himself to be in his career??

babs787:

[b]9. In all of this, did Muhammad feel righteous or sinful about his career?
. . .
Based on the above , I don’t have much to say on that, its Allah that knows. Jesus of the bible was even accused of lying likewise the prophets in the bible accused of one thing or the other ranging from fornication, incest to killing innocent souls.

Where can you prove that those accusations against Jesus actually proved true? In Muhammad's case, every single allegation so far was proven to a point. In fairness, I'd say that the only sane thing in all your thesis you've managed to intone is the sincerity in the last line: you don't have much to say on Muhammad's self-confessed sinfulness.

babs787:

are u satisfied, so u can now anser my questions

I just did, bro MIDT!! Cheers!

@babs787,

You have just won yourself the degree of MIDT - M[/b]aster of Science in [b]I[/b]slamic [b]D[/b]ribbling [b]T[/b]echniques. Congratulations! And I hope you use it well in continuing to fine-tune those embarrassing moments in Muhammad's life.

Now, next assignment before you're considered for a [b]Ph.D along the same discipline - I[/b]slamic [b]D[/b]ribbling.

babs787:

1. [b]Was Muhammad a pedophile?

. . . the definition of a paedophile is someone who is "sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to prepubescent children", thus Prophet Muhammad—salla Allahu 'alayhi wa salam—certainly wasn't one.

Question #1
Would you, babs787, consider giving your 6 y.o. daughter to a 50 y.o. man to have sex with when she is 9 y.o. in the name of Allah?

babs787:

The Prophet married Aisha primarily for three reasons:

a. To reinforce the friendly relations already existing with Abu Bakr (his closest companion).
b. To educate and train Aisha for the purposes of Islam.
c. To utilise her capabilities for the sake of Islam.

Question #2
a. how many underaged children did Muhammad marry in order to reinforce his ties with his companions?
b. how many 9 y.o. girls did Muhammad have to take to bed to educate them with the purposes of Islam?
c. how many 9 y.o. girls did Muhammad have sex with in order to utilize their capabilities for the sake of islam?

Does it not beggar your MIDT that you'd even try to defend pedophilia on the raw back of Islam?

babs787:

Her Marriage with the prophet was a Wahy (Divine Revelation). She, herself relates from the Prophet. "He said, 'I saw you in dreams three times. The angel brought you to me and you were clad in white silk. He (the angel) said that it was your consort and he (angel) showed me by opening your face. You are just like that, " Sahih Muslim, Vol.2, p. 285.

Question #3
Was this after Muhammad snatched her from her parents, or before he took her to bed and had sex with her?

babs787:

Aisha (r.a.) was born after her parents had embraced Islam. Therefore, she was free from the defilement of polytheism right from her birth.

Question #4
Was the poor girl of 9 years old aware that Muhammad's "Allah" was the chief deity besides the 3 daughter goddesses?

babs787:

By the way, shahan, babysin, havila, malik, davidlan, mrpataki, if you insist on maintaining, in spite of the evidence, that Prophet Muhammad—salla Allahu 'alayhi wa salam—was a paedophile, then sound logic dictates that Jesus Christ—'alayhi as-salam—gave tacit approval to paedophilia. I know that this might be a bitter pill to swallow, but if you'd do some research (and don't worry, I'm not holding my breath), you'd find that marrying girls at the outset of puberty were very much the norm in first century Palestine (i.e. the time in which Jesus lived)—puberty being taken as a biological sign that a woman was ready to bear children.

Question #5
Can you please reference from the Bible itself that Jesus encountered any case of anyone taking 6 year olds as wives and the having sex with them at 9 years of age?

Your MIDT seems to be working well for your R-IQ logic, you know. Just take a look at one reference of how Jesus Christ denounced any hint of child-molestation:

Matt. 18:5-6
"And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Do you suppose that Muhammad would escape that on judgement day?

babs787:

However, there's nothing in the four gospels which indicates that Jesus—'alayhi as-salam—ever spoke out against people in his largely Jewish society marrying girls at puberty.

True that - and nothing suggests either that He ever tolerated pedophilia.

babs787:

On the contrary, the Hebrew world "almah", which occurs in Isaiah 7:14 and is considered by Christians to be a prophecy of Mary's virgin birth, means a young woman, of marriageable age, who has passed the age of puberty.

Great, so Mary was a young woman, and not a 9 year old girl. Point made.

babs787:

It's based on this that many scholars think that Mary was around twelve years old when she gave birth to Jesus—'alayhi as-salam, although some feel that she might have been as old as fifteen.

MIDT again. It's amazing that your "many scholars" are always setting their "thinking" on spider-webs. . . baseless inferences without facts.

babs787:

However, "in modern terms", regardless of which age you take, her betrothed husband Joseph would still have been guilty of committing a criminal act (at least in the US and UK). To be fair, however, we should mention that even this would not technically be considered paedophilia, since there's no proof he was "primarily" or "exclusively" attracted to young girls. And if you want to get technical, Mary was no longer a girl, based on the standards of the society in which she lived, since she was past the age of puberty, thus she was an adult.

Dribbling back to your own goal post, huh? Point made again - neither the Biblical characters Joseph nor Mary were involved in any hint of pedophilia, as you now admit.

babs787:

Conclusively, Anyway, getting back to the subject of Jesus' tacit approval of marrying girls just after they'd reached puberty, it seems that Christians have one of two choices: 1) admit that Jesus Christ—'alayhi as-salam—failed in his mission as a moral leader (and even Muslims won't admit to this); or 2) recognize that based on the values of the society of his time, which saw nothing wrong with marrying young girls just after they reached puberty, nothing immoral was going on in this regard, thus Jesus was not obligated to speak out against any of it. So just like the Bani Qurayza issue, this is another one where Christians (shahan, havila, mrpataki, davidyaln etc)would be well advised to do some research, set their biases aside and then engage their brains before opening their mouths.

After making your "research" and opening your mouth, you only managed to dribble back to your own goal post and made the point that none of the Biblical characters in your Islamic eschatology were ever involved in the pet sport of Muhammad's pedophilia.

Lol, @Easyy,

I have said before in one of the threads that for security purposes the name of my local church cannot be stated on the Forum. For this reason i have offered my email addy if anyone wants to know.

Meanwhile, my church is not affiliated with any Christ-Embassy churches.

Cheers.

I've enjoyed all the inputs of late and can appreciate the various thinking heads on the Forum.

@Backslider, thanks for this line:

Backslider:

They are coequal and he was with the Father from the begining.

I think I can relate to that line of reasoning, and have always wondered upon that from the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ used the same titles the Almighty used for Himself in Revelation 22:12-13 --
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

For those still struggling with the deity of Jesus Christ, I've always asked them to please help explain who was speaking in that Scripture above.

Bless.

@muki-babe,

Just for the records, are all the Hadiths quoted on Nairaland fake and propounded by "haters"?

@donnie,

In all your persuasions and defence, what has pastor Oyaks done with the case of N49m stolen money as offering?

In all your persuasions, what are we to do with the man who claims to be an MOG and defends such robbery?

In all your persuasions, pastor Oyak's use of hebrew and greek edifies people; but it was alright for him to have ridiculed others who used it, abi?

I rejoice where truth is told. Where cover-up is offered as a better alternative to exposing fraud, my hand no dey!

In love, shahan!

@babyosisi,

Thank you for that concise input. Problem is that the SDA will NOT see eye-to-eye with any other Christian church/group/denomination; and to the SDA, all other 'denoms' are daughters of Babylon with RCC as the head!

@belloti,

You have earned my respect and have kept it going for quite a while. So, if my post caused you great discomfort, please here accept my apology to you and you alone for our friendship's sake.

You're correct - after having posted a few here on this thread, I gave heed to the plea that we leave this thread for Muslims to share on the Glorious Qur'an. But if the same appellant uses that plea as an excuse to make silly remarks about the Lord Jesus Christ, he would only be inviting more than he could chew.

In fair exchange, I wish that many times some of you Muslims would call your apologists to order whenever they play it too far. Several times our Christian brethren remind us to go it easy and with good sense - and in most instances we have paid good heed to such calls. However, the idea that Islam is peace is a smoke-screen that leaves no one fooled anymore; and that is why we find the blood of 4 Play rising with the virus he has in his system.

Once again, belloti, salaam.

@Bobbyaf,

For the sake of argument and a well-rounded debate, let me point out a few things about why you still mix up issues.

Bobbyaf:

You'll soon find out who is attacking what!

As straight-forward as can be, my post was about BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY; and your reply was directly attacking that very issue. See for yourself:

shahan:

Biblical Christianity has no hint of paganism in it.

. . . and your direct response to that was:

Bobbyaf:

@ Shahan
Yes it does and not even you can deny it.

So there - your attempt to circle round issues is not helping your case.

Bobbyaf:

Those are your words not mine. Besides, we are not discussing hell here are we? As I have said so many times, the SDA church is the best representation of what God intended His church to be, in terms of doctrines, and lifestyle practise.

The question was simple enough: "(a) SDA is the only Church of God today and all others are going to hell?" I simply wanted your statement in as simple as you can afford to state it.

Since SDA members are too "exclusive" to appreciate other denominations and have labelled them daughters of "babylon" who are not "close" enough to represent God's will, the question then would be - "Are other denominations going to hell if they are non-SDA?"

Bobbyaf:

I am not saying that the SDA church is perfect, and at least I am honest enough to say that. God's church is continually growing by His grace, until we take on the "fullness of the stature of Christ" (see Eph. 4)

Bobbyaf, what is God's Church??

Bobbyaf:

So why should I have confidence in men may I ask? I have full confidence in Jesus Christ and His word. You as well as I know that you will always have un-converted people in all denominations, including mine. So, please avoid trying to send the wrong ideas about what I am really trying to say.

I am quoting your very words and following on from there; so there's no sending wrong ideas besides what you have been saying.

Bobbyaf:

My emphasis is doctrines which lead to a particular lifestyle. Once someone is sold on God's will and instructions as being more important than one's wishes and fancies about christianity, then you're ok with me.

In other words, one is okay with you so long as his or her doctrines are flavoured after SDA?

Bobbyaf:

That is why I said that in all denominations there are God's people who are just waiting to hear the truth presented. Jesus said "you shall know the truth and it shall set you free"

In other words again, all denominations are not good enough until they receive SDA doctrines?

Bobbyaf:

The problem is that what they are exposed to is the doctrines and traditions of men. I say down with man's traditions and false teachings. Let us rebuild the old places. Let us restore the will and instructions of God so that the curse will be lifted from the land.

Right. I am persuaded that the SDA is exposed to the doctrine and traditions of a woman - Ellen G. White. And I say, as you do, "down with Ellen G. White's traditions and false teachings!"

Bobbyaf:

That is for you to show me. I wouldn't be there if I had any problems.

Just requesting you to say a simple yes or no to the question: "Which means that the SDA has no errors??"

Bobbyaf:

As for Ellen White I haven't read all her material as yet, because of the huge volumes of books she has written.

You mean the ones she plagiarized from other sources and claimed as her visions and revelations from the Lord? I haven't read them all as well; but I guarantee you that I've contacted most of them direct.

Bobbyaf:

But so far I haven't read anything that would suggest heresy. And even if she made mistakes that doesn't necessarily mean that she wasn't called as a messenger of God for our time.

Two things need to be sorted here:

(a) you "haven't read anything that would suggest heresy"; or, you are simply not aware of the fact; or, you just want to pretend they are just not there?

(b) by the statement that, "even if she made mistakes" are you admitting to heresies in Ellen G. White's writings and plagiarized works??

Bobbyaf:

What I do know is that millions have come to know Jesus because of her writings. No other woman has written more in terms of volume than E.G. White.

Bless God for the millions who have found the Saviour - Jesus Christ; but nope - the "volumes" are mostly plagiarized works from other sources. More than that, thank God for the millions more who left the SDA after discovering the facts!

Bobbyaf:

Shahan there are several sites that point to the so-called heresies of Ellen White.

I know, my dear, I know. . . and trust shahan: she's not that gullible to pander just about anything ferreted from just about any website. I could list for you some of those websites that are anti-SDA but are shamelessly lying through their teeth against EGW. I know that much. However, only very few of them have the facts right and sourced their material from SDA offcial publications - which I have contatcted myself!

Bobbyaf:

A lot of things that were said by her have been taken out of context, and that is why I don't bother anymore about such criticisms.

I think it would do you a whole lot of good to bother about those critcism - however sarcastic and bitter they may sound. Not all of them are sincere; but loads of them tell the truth about what SDA really is. Besides, when I source materials in my personal study, I mae sure that Ellen G. White is not misquoted; and her very bold statements have shown that she could not be trusted at all.

lysaa:

Well, showing no remorse over an issue simply means two things, either pride or he still knows for sure who he is, why should we be so stiff-necked to continue contemplating on the pride-side, common now, turn and check the flip side, the man is still causing changes in the lives of people as in getting people saved which is the biggest miracle ever.

I sincerely would have wished that you didn't throw things in a wishy-washy way. Let me ask you: if a pastor led 120 million to Jesus Christ in order that they might be saved, does that make pride excusable at any level? Do you know what pride really is in the sight of God?

It is one thing for someone to have been proud and later repent before God and still do the "first works". But to savour world-wide popularity and still be proud in the sight of God does not make God change His mind about the sin He condemned in His Word.

lysaa:

But if y'all stay there criticising him, how does it affect him than for him to turn your criticism into an energy to move on, christianity is a relationship between a man and God, like a marriage no 3rd party, that is why whatever you say about him doesn't count. LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE as an example and lets emulate you.

Whatever I say about anyone may not count - but it counts before God who has given us the Scriptures to test everything and seek fellowship with people who will not be headstrong in their pride; especially when such pride is fed by those who see nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with it.

lysaa:

By the way, how did Pastor Chris castigate men of God that used Hebrew or Greek in their teaching?,

I thought you knew so very much of the man before seeking to defend everything about him? At least, it is on record that he castigated other pastors, and particularly disliked Okotie for his exegisis of Scripture using the Greek and Hebrew words. It came rather as a surprise a few weeks later that the same Oyaks that didn't like another person using the Greek or Hebrew started doing the very thing he denounced!

We are not perfect; but highly placed people send a quizzical message in their attitudes when they engage unapologetically in the very things they once denounced.

Cheers.

neelsel:

I pity Jesus for having people of your calibre as His followers,

I was just waiting for this kind of silly quips to prove that the so-called plea for tolerance that Muslims ask for is non-existent anywhere in the Islamic world. It is alright for others to tolerate Islam and Muhammad and not make derogatory remarks about him and his chief idol *allah and the 3 goddesses that follow him.

You pity Jesus, you say? I'm truly sorry for you, my dear. If only you knew who Jesus really is, you would have carefully thought out your statement. In any case, you have only managed to provide the impetus for Christians to come on board this and other threads and expose the career of Muhammad and his fraud called the Qur'an.

Besides that, the typical mindset of Muslim apologetics has been exposed in the past few rejoinders by Muslims themselves. For instance, many Muslims would pretend that in Islam, no prophet is greater than any other and all the prophets are respected equally. If that lie has been kept close for a while, it has now been revealed - thanks to nuru:

nuru:

The best example of how to live life and attain eternal bliss is in the Prophets of God. The best and the last of them is Muhammad. He lived life as human being not as an angel so that you and I can learn fervently from his existence.

Now there - the so-called "we don't compare prophets in Islam" has now risen to the surface with nuru's version of setting Muhammad above others. Now let's pity Muhammad and take a look at his "best and last" examples of how to live a life and attain eternal bliss:

1. Muhammad was a pedophile
He snatched a 'minor' (underaged girl) at 6 years of age and took her to bed when she was barely 9 nine years old. If Muhammad was setting the best example, I'm sure not even nuru would oblige his 9 year old daughter to the bedouin errand-boy of *allah for such dastardly act. (see Sahih Muslim, Book 8: Number 3310: The Book of Marriage [Kitab Al-Nikah]; and Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64)

2. Muhammad was a sex pervert.
How many times have we asked Muslim apologists to explain the meaning of the following: (a) Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 173 - Muhammad's instruction concerning women shaving their pubic hair; (b) Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3240 - after he had sex with Zainab, Muhammad equates women to the devil; (c) Sahih Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 62, Number 135 - Muhammad's companions having lewd sex with female captives and practicing coitus interruptus as the Qur'an was being revealed; (d) Qur'an 2:223 - where Muhammad's *allah describes women as th[/i]e tilts [i]for Muslim men to sexually cultivate in whatever manner they chose?

3. Muhammad was a self-confessed incorrigible sinner
Sahih Bukhari, Invocations Volume 8, Book 75, Number 319
Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Apostle saying." By Allah! I ask for forgiveness from Allah and turn to Him in repentance more than seventy times a day."

Those are some of the "best and last" examples of your best prophet whose career was well documented in Islamic sources. You fellows will make careless statements here and then hope that others should just leave the thread for you to continue your miserable exercise against Jesus, abi? And then you will come back with snivels crying, "we love all the prophets and we never say anything derogatory against anyone of them, not even Jesus!" Indeed.

You don't expect to make unguarded remarks about the Lord Jesus Christ and expect Christian believers to just sidon-look!

@TV01,

I have carefully read your inputs, but then am not quite sure if you've a grasp on the imporant roles Christians are called unto so as to influence their world for God's glory. However, I'll first have to acknowledge on the surface my agreement with this line in your reasoning:

TV01:

Political power is not the mandated way for Christians to advance the kingdom. The dominionist (and totally erroneous) thinking that says Christians will take dominion of this world (thus preaparing the ground for the 2nd coming) and then hand over power to The Lord, is an example.

It is true that political power is not the mandated way for Christians to advance the Kingdom of God; and in my exposure, dominion theology hasn't helped the case at all.

However, that something is not mandated does not make it expressly forbidden. What we should understand is the balance offered in Scripture about civil matters of governance vis-a-viz the style of world governance in its various forms. This balance can be viewed in several context - both at the inidividual level and at the collective level.

Call to mind, for example, the calling that is not mandated and yet not expressly forbidden in I Cor. 7:21 - "Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather." Notice that being called as a servant is not mandatory as much as being made free. However, we should not miss that last clause - use it rather!

The above does not licence a manifesto for political vocations among Christians, surely as the context shows. But then, it sets forth an example of how we should not push this idea of a mandate too far as to miss the fact that in God's economy, issues are not that constrained.

In a wider sense of application, you seem to espouse the view that Christians are to sit and passively allow issues around the world to play out without any input. I do not take such a position and the reasons are multiplied.

Christians have a civil responsibility to influence the decison making processes in any country where they live. This is not a passive calling, but an active one. I think this is one way we can understand the Lord's words that we ought to let our lights shine in the world - Matt. 5:16. Some of the ways we can influence effective political governance is to speak up against social ills of any country where we live.

Abortion, Religious Freedom, Child Abuse and Violence, Drugs and Environment, Homosexuality, Human Cloning, Racism, etc, are some of the political and social issues that Christians are supposed to actively participate in order to influence the formulation of government policies on them. Christians should not be merely concerned with grumbling about taxes and the increasing cost of living. If we do not engage in our civil and political responsibilities in these areas, then we are failing to pursue our God-given vocation to make a difference in our world.

TV01:

And what of Nebuchadnezzar? No, no, no! Even Pharoah was ultimately used for God's purposes, but that doesn't mean he was primarily seeking to serve or glorify God. But ultimately God used Pharoah for His purposes, just as He used Nebuchadnezzar to judge Judah and the surrounding nations, prior to judging Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar.

Exo 9:16 - "And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

That was God's own direct statement to Pharaoh, clearly marking the point that God was involved in the political government in egypt even though the wicked Pharaoh was true to the letter as a tyrant. It wasn't a matter of merely Pharaoh "being used" for God's glory; but God issued His word that He raised the Egyptian King for a purpose.

TV01:

[color=#000099]John 18:36 - Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."
. . .
It's a misunderstanding even the disciples had. Our kingdom is not from or of this world. We don't need neither can we use the power structures in it to further the KOG.

In the world, but not of it - that's the key. And while in the world, are we to passively be 'Christians' and stand aloof from the concerns of people in the world? I think that Christians can very well be policemen and hold good jobs in law enforcement agencies to fight crime in our socities. They can work in various capacities as lawyers who are involved in the governing bodies and policies of various nations.

The point to note is that Christians can fulfill their vocations even in political corridors and still practice their faith without molding themselves to the political ugliness of ungodly polities.

@mrpataki,

mrpataki:

Lawyer, hahah, Another grammarian in the house.

Yes, your honour. . . guilty as charged on two counts: 1. mixing English and pidgin together; and 2. opening my previous reply with an excessive bruuhaha!!

mrpataki:

I have heard and seen some of the best of English words here! You are as well into that sin too

Condemn not thy handmaiden before thy high-court, for thou seest none comest to the present help!

mrpataki:

Well am beginning to see another vision again.

Oh dearie dear me!
That explains why I had this creepy feeling someone was spying on me from nowhere!

mrpataki:

God help me oh!!!!!

. . . so that we may not sink beneath the billows of the waves!

@mrpataki,

mrpataki:

Sorry shahan, point of correction, "A Bed time story"

. . . you mean, like "mat-time story"??

@mrpataki,

Brruuaahhhaaahaaa!!

I have passed your prophecy to mlks_baby, and here's her "oversight":

1. She's still engrossed with her lawyer books for now (e no easy!)

2. she's waiting for her treat at the end of this month when we fly off to Australia (our deal if my gender was discovered before the end of the month)

3. she still sends her greetings with a   sanctified with some olive oil

4. she says to keep the question in small prints still undisclosed to keep you guys guessing (tee-hee-hee )

5. she will breeze into nairaland this weekend when things heat up, and she go hala well-well.

Okay, if I missed any of the "visions", we go contact Balaam, abi??

@Bobbyaf,

I only took time to respond to yours in the previous thread so that we don't derail the purpose thereto. Secondly, you still are having problems articulating your ideas and so far it doesn't seem to differ in anyway than the one already debunked. So here:

Bobbyaf:

You guys are already set in your views about an apparently attack on your version of christianity. My version is far different, and is based on the un-diluted word of God. If anything, I am relentlessly attacking a counterfeit remodel of christianity, that has been infected with pagan practises. Since you chose to mis-represent as always what I have to say freely, then I guess you have understood a we bit clearer what I mean.

I'm least interested in your shadow boxing. The facts still stand as stated, and your attempt to pretend your version does not help your cover-up. Compare:

shahan:

Biblical Christianity has no hint of paganism in it.

Bobbyaf:

Yes it does and not even you can deny it.

Do you see your denial now??

Bobbyaf:

Your version of christianity has caught a cold. It needs to once again be purified. The only way to do that is to totally remove youselves from the teachings and influence of papal and pagan Rome.

Right, so when I stated the case for BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY, you refer to it as a version that has caught a cold. No worries, because while you think you're being funny, you little realise how you're actually attacking the Word of God. Carry on.

Bobbyaf:

I believe that the SDA church is the best representation of what God intended for His church to be in terms of doctrines and lifestyle. As to whether all SDAs live out these doctrines in their lives is another question.

In that case, are you admitting to two things:

(a) SDA is the only Church of God today and all others are going to hell?

(b) So, inspite of your problems with other denominations, you don't even have full confidence in the members of SDA?

Bobbyaf:

Note however, that I have always believed that God's people like sheep are scattered in various bodies of believers. Most of these bodies have mixed some truth with erroroneous practises, to which I have allluded.

Which means that the SDA has no errors??

Bobbyaf:

I am not quite sure what you mean by promoted in all ages. However, we have had through the history of the denom people who have started erroneous doctrines, but were never accommadated. The church is so structured to detect such by God's Holy Spirit. We've had our own internal struggles with people who have become our worst enemies, in that they still claim to represent the SDA denom, but only as splinter groups. They know the treasure of being with what we have as a heritage.

I didn't query the splinter groups but SDA as a whole. Specifically, has Ellen G. White not propagated any heresies that the SDA church promotes and holds up until now?

Bobbyaf:

As you know factions have been plauging God's church ever since, but ultimately God's true remnant will be blessed and maintained by Him. So there is a constant cleansing of God's church.

And that "God's Church" happen to be none other than the SDA??

Bobbyaf:

Well, I am not perfect! In terms of what I believe, no. I mean I have said a lot of things, and as you know the English language is a strange language. People see in expressions what they choose to see, despite any explanations.

This is why several people have asked you to be careful what you say. How else do you want them read and not misunderstand you when you use expressions carelessly without knowing their meaning, prejudge issues and people who you don't even know, and yet refuse to listen to all the appeals that they keep sending you? You haven't made a good case for yourself on the Forum, Bobbyaf.

Bobbyaf:

If you are able to take up the challenge to prove otherwise, be my guest. I am open minded enough to see the truth, if it is the truth.

Well, you really haven't demonstrated you're ready to learn. The complaint that SDA members are belligerent is a strong testimony to that, even though I haven't encountered a sizeable number in all my travels as others have.

Bobbyaf:

Hmmnn! My getting it all wrong, huh? You guys are free to say whatever you desire to say. I am cool. I carry no hard feelings or malice. This is an open forum.

How does that demonstrate that you're willing to learn in humility?

Bobbyaf:

When you get to see the other and less controversial side of Bobby, you will like him. He is a cool guy you know.

Does it have to take forever for "the other and less controversial side of Bobby" to show up?

@nuru,

You haven't really made any sense at all but offered excuses to defend the indefensible.

nuru:

The story of Muhammad's (SAW) life is in the common domain. How he faced persecutions with his followers in the hands of disbelievers is well known. His legendary steadfastness is equally acknowledged in history. The sayings reported of him that some people turned to apes and the rest is the truth as revealed to him. Muhammad did not say anything out of his own freewill as teaching or as a message except what was revealed to him. And even the levels of revelations were different. The highest was recited to him and he repeated after Angel Jubril and his companions repeated the recitations after him and learnt it by heart.

When you study Muhammad's life and sayings especially from the Hadith, do you see a man that was consistent with his call as a prophet? Do you see a man who lived a holy exemplary life that there's no area in his life that is quite questionable and even repugnant?

Secondly,

nuru:

It may pain you that some people were reported to have turned into apes, but take it from me it is the truth. Even in our age, we have seen and heard people turn to different things, so don't be surprised.

So, it is alright then for the Jews to call Muhammad the names that he called them? It may pain you, but can you take it as the truth that Muhammad has been called so many things by many people?

nuru:

The was that Muhammad were defensive. When the meccans violated the treaty of Hudaybia, the prophet was given permission to march on Mecca and it fell without a single arrow thrown. Even in victory, the Prophet showed magnanimity of the highest order.

What about the defenseless villages Muhammad and his companions attacked for just simply rejecting his claim as a prophet?

nuru:

Verses of Quran arguing Muslims to fight and slay the enemies when they transgress are to serve as deterrents for aggressors and for the Muslims to defend peace and noble co-existence. Muslims are the best nation raised for mankind, they believe in God, invite to what is right and forbid evil. Islamic faith is not a docile one.

Does that explain why Shiites and Sunnis are at each other - to defend peace and noble co-existence by turning on each other?

nuru:

As for the abrogation of verses that God proclaimed in the Quran, you only have realize that its because of His Mercy and Compassion for His Slaves. Look at it this way, when Intoxicant was to be prohibited, God did it in stages. The verse that mentioned that when you are intoxicated, don't perform salat came before the one that says you should not indulge in it at all. If you are not careful and you read the former verse, you may be tempted to say the Intoxicants are permitted in Islam, but that is not the case. With this example, I think you can appreciate the issue of abrogation of verses better.

Just simply go and read the texts about the abrogation and see that they were not about intoxicants. Several verses were abrogated because they were considered too embarrassing for the Rasul. Not only so, to even suggest the possibility of abrogating verses shows that Muhammad's deity was inconsitent and could not make up his mind on any issue, unless Muhammad was satisfied with it.

nuru:

To my Beethoven loving friend, you cannot compare sleep with death, neither can you compare day and night. I am a music lover and player myself and I have two albums to my credit. But music is not Revelations although Quran is somehow rhythmic. But just try what I have said by listening to the Quran and report your experience here. ' Eyan o le gbe okere mo didun obe' 'You can't savour the sweetness o a meal until you taste it'

Have you tasted the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ? Can you report your experience here after you do?

@luckyCO,

Phew! I'll post it overnight so it would be ready for you tomorrow. The last few days have been really tight for me, but there's a good chance that my schedule will be eased until the weekend.

Thanks for your patience, and many blessings.

@onikunkewu,

onikunkewu:

Davidylan, TayoD, Havilla, Mr. Pataki and other enemies of Islam am back to Nigeria, MAY THE PEACE AND BLESSINGS OF ALMIGHTY GOD BE WITH YOU ALL, MAY HE FORGIVE YOUR SINS AND GUIDE YOU TO THE RIGHT PATH (ISLAM)

Prayers for you, too. . . and welcome back!

@belloti,

If that is the gist or morale behind the story of the Sheik, then it doesn't sound consistent with your position at all. In the first place, as long as you recognize that Muslims worship a different God than is confessed in the Christian faith, the Sheik could not have been "speaking for all the religions" that recognise the existence of God.

It might be a story intended to pass a morale, and there's nothing wrong with that - Christians also employ the same technique. But the point of departure is that religious leaders do not draw a conclusion about a mass conversion unless they are sure to verify that "story". In this case, the story of the Sheik remains simply that - a story.

@belloti,

I think bari_kade actually helped to put things in perspective. Any Christian sect does not define the whole of Biblical Christianity in just the same way that no single sect or denomination among the more than 70 sects in Islam could alone be representing Islam as stipulated in the Qur'an.

What people have been doing so far on the Forum is quote from relevant sources in order to examine the claims of Christianity and Islam. Such resources include especially the Bible (for Christianity), and the Qur'an and Hadith for Islam. Up until now, there are still gapping holes and huge issues to tackle in Islam than there are in Christianity.

Regardless of the denominations, all Muslims adhere to the Qur'an, and most accent to the Hadith. Yet, in the concensus of Muslims as regards the Qur'an, it does not appear that the grey areas have been successfully treated in Islam.

We hope that these issues can be kept in good perspectives as the discussion progresses.

Cheers.