₦airaland Forum

Hajj rift: Top Saudi cleric says Iranians ‘aren’t Muslims’ after Iran calls Saudis ‘murderers’

Published time: 6 Sep, 2016 09:27
Edited time: 6 Sep, 2016 15:2

RT

A top Saudi cleric declared that Iranians are “not Muslims” after Iran’s Supreme Leader Khamenei slammed Saudi Arabia for poorly managing the hajj pilgrimage, saying the country had virtually “murdered” the Muslims who perished in last year’s stampede.
“We must understand these are not Muslims, they are children of Magi and their hostility towards Muslims is an old one. Especially with the people of Sunna,” Grand Mufti Abdulaziz al-Sheikh said in comments to the Makkah newspaper, adding that Khamenei’s remarks did not surprise him. The term “Magi” refers to Zoroastrianism – a monotheistic religion older than Islam that was once dominant in Persian lands before the Arab conquest.

The hajj is a religious pilgrimage to Islam’s most holy sites that every Muslim is obligated to undertake at least once in their lives. In the deadliest incident of its kind on record, some 2,426 people were killed in a stampede Mecca’s Mina neighborhood as they were making their hajj in September of last year. While the cause still remains unclear, the tragedy has further exacerbated long-standing animosities between regional archrivals Saudi Arabia and Iran. Tehran claimed that 464 of those killed were Iranian, while blaming the calamaity on Saudi mismanagement. Iran has repeatedly demanded that an independent body take over management of the five-day event, but the Saudi authorities have refused to consider the proposal.

On Monday, Iran’s supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei accused Saudi authorities of “murdering” Iranian pilgrims.

“They murdered them,” Khamenei wrote in an emotionally charged statement on his official website.

“The heartless and murderous Saudis locked up the injured with the dead in containers – instead of providing medical treatment and helping them or at least quenching their thirst,” the leader stated, though he offered no evidence to support his allegations. He also accused the Saudis, who he called “small and puny satans,” of “treason” for failing to provide sufficient security for the hajj, saying they had been too busy catering to the United States to arrange it.

“Saudi rulers… are disgraced and misguided people. [They] tremble for fear of jeopardizing the interests of the Great Satan, the US,” Khamenei wrote.

“Because of Saudi rulers’ oppressive behavior towards God’s guests, the world of Islam must fundamentally reconsider the management of the two holy places and the issue of hajj,” Iran’s leader suggested.

Saudi Arabia’s crown prince and interior minister, Mohammed bin Nayef, said that Iran was merely trying to “politicize” the hajj, while warning that the agitation could compromise the safety of pilgrims.

“The Iranian authorities don’t want the Iranian pilgrims to come here for reasons concerning the Iranians themselves,” Saudi state news agency SPA quoted the crown prince as saying.

“Seeking to politicize hajj and turn it into rituals against Islam’s teachings [compromises] the safety of hajj,” he stressed.

The crown prince dismissed Khamenei as lacking credibility and objectivity, stressing that the Saudis have never treated Iranian pilgrims any differently than the other pilgrims, while Iranian pilgrims do not always respect the rules of hajj.

“[They use hajj] to violate the teachings of Islam, through shouting slogans and disturbing the security of pilgrims,” he noted.

Bin Nayef stressed that the Saudis consider it their sacred duty to provide all of the pilgrims “with all safety and security.”

After two failed attempts to resolve the safety issue, Iran banned its pilgrims from attending this year’s hajj for the first time in almost 30 years. Nonetheless, there are many Iranians among the over one million pilgrims that have already arrived in the Gulf state for the hajj starting Friday, the Saudi Minister of Hajj and Umrah said, according to Aawsat newspaper.

Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia has been gearing up for the event, fearing a repeat of last year’s tragedy. This year, Muslim pilgrims will all have to wear electronic bracelets containing personal and medical information, while additional security cameras have been installed along the hajj route. In addition, Crown Prince bin Nayef has warned that more severe punishments await those who disturb the proceedings.

https://www.rt.com/news/358378-iran-saudi-rift-hajj/

CC:
Seun

Iranians Islam different from what Saudi terror masters preach: Zarif

Tue Sep 6, 2016 8:23PM

[img]http://217.218.67.233/photo/20160906/946681ed-8d01-42a0-931a-5dc21993d59a.jpg[/img]
Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif

Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif says the religion of Iran and most of the Muslim world is nothing like that of Saudi Arabian Wahhabis.

“Indeed; no resemblance between Islam of Iranians & most Muslims & bigoted extremism that Wahhabi top cleric & Saudi terror masters preach,” Zarif posted on his Twitter account on Tuesday.

[img]http://217.218.67.233//photo/20160906/f1e9189c-3447-446c-9970-58b719ed82af.jpg[/img]

Zarif made the remark in response to a top Wahhabi cleric saying that Iranians were not Muslims.

Earlier, Saudi Arabia’s Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al ash-Sheikh told an Arabic language newspaper that Iranians are not Muslims and have a deep animosity towards Sunnis.

The Mofti’s remarks were made after Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei criticized those in charge of Hajj over last year’s Mina tragedy.

On September 24, 2015, a deadly crush occurred after two large masses of pilgrims converged at a crossroads in Mina during the symbolic ceremony of the stoning of Satan in Jamarat.

Saudi Arabia claims nearly 770 people were killed in the incident, but Iranian officials say about 4,700 people, including more than 460 Iranians, lost their lives in the tragedy. The crush was the deadliest incident in the history of the pilgrimage. According to an Associated Press count based on official statements from the 36 countries that lost citizens in the disaster, more than 2,400 pilgrims were killed in the incident.

[img]http://217.218.67.233//photo/20160906/4ac50c18-be72-4f53-8d91-a22776248d97.jpg[/img]
In this September 24, 2015, photo, bodies of people who died in a crush in Mina, Saudi Arabia, during the annual Hajj pilgrimage lie in a street. (AP)

Iran has, on numerous occasions, criticized Saudi’s incompetence in handling the pilgrimage for the tragic incidents.

As Saudi Arabia fell short of ensuring guarantees for the safety of pilgrims, Iran announced recently that it will not send pilgrims to this year’s Hajj.

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/09/06/483503/zarif-tweet-saudi-arabia-muslims

Azhar cleric excludes Salafists from Sunnis, irks Saudis

Mon Sep 5, 2016 1:51PM

Saudi clerics have reacted angrily to recent remarks by Egyptian Grand Imam of al-Azhar, Sheikh Ahmed al-Tayeb, who excluded Salafists from Sunnis during a religious conference in Chechnya, Russia.

During a conference in Grozny, Chechnya, Sheikh Tayeb said that Salafists were not Sunnists, while he was defining what is meant by Sunnism.

The online Arabic-language Ray al-Youm website said in a report on Monday that the remarks caused a storm of anger among pro-government clerics in Saudi Arabia.

They said the rhetoric used by the Egyptian cleric during the conference was more in line with a policy to weaken Wahhabism (Saudi Salafism) practiced in Saudi Arabia and establish a new, dominant Sunni leadership under the auspices of al-Azhar in Egypt.

According to the report, several Saudi clerics said the conference, attended by thinkers from Egypt and other Sunni-dominated countries, was an attempt by the Russian government to deepen the gap between Saudi Arabia and Egypt -- two leading Sunni Muslim nations of the world.

The Russian initiative was meant to sow discord in the Islamic world, they claimed, saying the conference targets the Kingdom.

The report comes just one day after the General Secretariat of the Council of Senior Scholars in Riyadh warned against what it called inciting and stoking sedition among Muslims belonging to different schools of thought.

“It is not prudent to ignite crises and trigger misadventures of political nature, as well as intellectual affiliations and sloganeering, to demonize the Muslims and thereby widening divisions,” the council said in a statement carried by the official Saudi Press Agency.

More than 100 Muslim clerics from various countries, including Russia, Syria, Turkey, India, Britain, Lebanon, Egypt, South Africa and Jordan, attended the Grozny conference on August 25-17 to disassociate themselves and Sunnism from the Takfiri terrorist groups that have been wreaking havoc in the Middle East and other places.

The scholar attendees, most of them well-known in the Muslim world, said the groups like Daesh, which fight under the banner of Wahhabism, have no links to Sunnism altogether.

The Saudi government, along with its allies, has been among the main sponsors of Takfiri militants.

According to reports, the Riyadh regime has recently stepped up its support for Takfiri militants in the face of the Iraqi army's upcoming liberation of Mosul and the Syrian army's advances in Aleppo and elsewhere.

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/09/05/483295/Saudi-clerics-Grozny-Russia-Wahhabism-Takfiri

Seun:
I believe that every muslim has unique and personal reasons for believing that Islam is the true religion. Can you share those reasons on this thread, and let's discuss them? This thread is not to insult Islam but to have an enjoyable and educative conversation about why we believe.

Seun, the below are the reasons i am Muslim and also why i am Shia Muslim:

1.) The Quran: teaching us about the Almighty Creator and revealing Him to us, its language, miracles, prophecies, knowledge of the unseen, science, eloquence, healing, and the fact that it was delivered through a man who was unlearned.

2.) The Holy Prophet Muhammad (s) : his moral teachings, his sublime character, his mercy, justice, firmness, fairness, personal life, and everything he stood for.

3.) The chosen members of the Ahlul-Bayt (as), particularly the 12 holy Imams (as) : their teachings, their wisdom which exemplified divine lessons and prophetic knowledge inherited from their grandfather the Prophet Muhammad (s), the uniformity in their teachings that they did not contradict one another in a period of about 300 years and they did not contradict the Holy Quran, and they never contradict the teachings of the Holy Prophet (s), their succession and the predictions, miracles and healing they performed even up to our day miracles are experienced by those who visit the site of their burial or places associated with them.

4.) Imam Hussain (as) and the Tragedy of Karbala : undoubtedly Imam Hussain (as) is among the Prophet's Ahlul-Bayt (as) and he is the third of the Twelve Holy Imams (as). without Imam Hussain, whom Allah (swt) used to preserve Islam, there would have been no Islam today. as popularly said, Islam is Muhammedan in its presence and Hussaini in its preservation. the sacrifice of Imam Hussain (as) and his ability to resist tyranny and oppression is among the most impressive in the history of humanity that the famous Mahatma Gandhi declared: Hussain taught me how to be oppressed and still achieve victory. the sacrifice of Imam Hussain (as) is the victory of blood over the sword. it is something to marvel at; a story of how someone and all his family members and companions and followers can be killed in the most brutal way and suffered momentary defeat, yet, he attained immortal victory. today, Imam Hussain (as) is immoral through the preservation of his memory/legacy and sacrifice by his followers generation after generation. the story of Imam Hussain (as) is not only about spirituality, religion, morals, and revelations and prophecies. it is one of LOVE! it is an attachment to the soul of a spiritual father. he espouses the moral teachings of his grandfather the holy Prophet Muhammad (s). if anyone doubts the prophethood of Muhammad (s), look no further to verify its truthfulness than the character and teachings displayed by Imam Ali (as) and his son, Imam Hussain (as), and in fact the rest of the Twelve Holy Imams (as). when you identify their character, wisdom, teachings and morality, you are left with no doubt that they are the inheritors of divine knowledge and wisdom of Muhammad (s) and purity and that indeed Muhammad (s) is the messenger of the Almighty Creator. if there was no Quran, and nothing at all to convince me about Islam, Imam Hussain (as) is enough reason for me to be proud to be called Muslim.

5.) Islam gives meaning to my existence and hope: with the teachings of Islam, i am certain i was not created in vain. Islam and the teachings of the Quran gives me hope for reward and meaning to my life both here and in the hereafter. I know i was not created in vain or in futility like science wants us to believe that we exist by mistake or by chance. the Quran brings to my awareness and increases my spiritual consciousness that i was from nothing and i became something, and something can never come from nothing. i am a reflection of God's greatness. when i ponder upon my organs, my growth, digestion, rainfall, harvest, i see nothing but miracles. and these are all themes covered in the Quran. and we are informed that we were not created in vain but for a struggle and test in this life to prepare us for what is even greater and better.

Alhamdulillah.

looks like the author has never read the Quran which touches DIRECTLY on the Imamate of the first holy Imam, Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as) in VERSE 5:55.

and Mr. sino, you really do not need to stress yourself much with the copy/paste. you should have simply presented the link and not waste your data. the above claims by "Afriqi" have been refuted here:

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/imamate/sunni-doctrine.html

and attempt by Shia Muslims on this forum to tackle the claims and dissect the arguments would only be a futile repetition. the work is already done in the above link.

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said:

“Of whomever I was master, Ali (A.S) is his master."

Sunni Reference:” Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/129; Kenz Al-Omal, 6/157; Al-Dilmi.

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said:

“The most judicious person in my nation is Ali (A.S)."


Sunni Reference:” Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 70; Arjah Al-MatAlib, 544.

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said:

“Embellish your gatherings by mentioning Ali (A.S).

Sunni Reference: Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/109; Musnad Ahmad, 4/368, 5/419; Al-Khasa’is of Al-Nisa’I, 9; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 16; Al-Manaqib of Akhtab Khawarizm, 94; Tarikh Baghdad of Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdadi, 8/290; Yanabi^ Al-Mawda.

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said:

“The most knowledgeable person in my nation after me is Ali (A.S).

Sunni References: Manaqib Al-Imam Ali Ibn Abi TAlib (A.S) of Ibn Al-Maghazeli Al-Shafi^i.

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said:

“Every prophet has an executor and inheritor, and my executor and inheritor is Ali (A.S)."

Sunni Reference: Kenz Al-Omal, 6/158; Tarikh Baghdad of Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdadi, 11/173; Shawahid Al-Tanzil, 2/223; Yanabi^ Al-Mawda, 94.

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said:

“The caller will call out on the Day of Judgment, ‘O Muhammad, blessed be your father, and Ibrahim, and blessed be your brother, Ali (A.S).


Sunni References: Al-Fadha’il of Ahmad, 253; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 67; Al-Khawarizmi, 83; Al-Riyadh Al-Nudhra, 2/201.

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said:

"The truest believers are three: the believer during the time of Al Ya-Sin, the believer during the time of Pharaoh, and the best of all, Ali (A.S)."


Sunni References: Al-Manaqib of Ahmad, 194, 239; Kenz Al-Omal, 5/31; Al-Jami^ of Al-Suyuti, 2/83; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 245; Yanabi^ Al-Mawda, 126.

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said:

“My Lord commanded me to close all the doors except the door of Ali (A.S)."


Sunni Reference: Al-Khasa’is of Al-Nisa’i, 13; Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/125; Al-Tirmidhi, 13/173; Al-Bayhaqi, 7/65; Yanabi^ Al-Mawda, 282; Musnad Ahmad, 4/369; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 245; Yanabi^ Al-Mawda, 126.

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said:

“The carrier of my flag in this life and the Hereafter is Ali (A.S)."


Sunni Reference: Kenz Al-Omal, 6/122; Al-Tabari, 2/201; Al-Khawarizmi, 250; Al-Fadha’il of Ahmad, 253; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 42/200.

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said:

“There is no sword but Dhul-Fiqar, and there is no man but Ali (A.S)."


Sunni Reference: Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 2/385; Sunan Al-Bayhaqi, 3/376; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 197; Al-Tabari, 2/514; Al-Riyadh Al-Nudhra, 2/190.

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said:


“The title of the believer's book is love for Ali (A.S)."


Sunni Reference:
Al-Manaqib of Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 243; Tarikh Baghdad of Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi, 4/410; Al-Jami^ of Al-Sayuti, 2/145; Yanabi^ Al-Mawda.

The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said:

“We were created from the same tree, I and Ali (A.S)."

Sunni Reference:
Al-Tirmidhi, 13/178; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 122; Asad Al-Ghaba, 4/26; Al-Riyadh Al-Nudhra, 2/216.

In 9 A.H. (630), Prophet Muhammad (s) received news of an imminent attack by the Roman Empire, so he left to fight the Battle of Tabuk. He did not want to leave Medina unguarded, since there were concerns regarding the safety of the city, and decided to leave Imam Ali (as) behind as his deputy. Imam Ali (as) asked if he was going to be left behind with the women and children. To this Muhammad replied:

"Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Haroun (Aaron) to Musa (Moses)? But there will be no prophet after me."

Sunni Source:
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 700

The position of Haroun (as) to Musa (as) in the Holy Quran (20:24-37) :

"Go to Fir'aun (Pharaoh)! Verily, he has transgressed (all bounds in disbelief and disobedience, and has behaved as an arrogant, and as a tyrant)."
[Musa (Moses)] said: "O my Lord! Open for me my chest (grant me self-confidence, contentment, and boldness). And ease my task for me; And make loose the knot (the defect) from my tongue, (i.e. remove the incorrectness from my speech). That they understand my speech, And appoint for me a minister from my family, Harun (Aaron), my brother; Increase my strength with him, And let him share my task (of conveying Allah's Message and Prophethood), That we may glorify You much, And remember You much, Verily! You are of us Ever a Well-Seer. Allah said: You are granted your request, O Musa (Moses)! And indeed We conferred a favour on you another time (before)."

The Prophet (s) said:

"The one who wants to live my life and die my death and inherit the everlasting paradise which my Lord has promised me should make himself abide by Ali (as). He will not lead you astray from guidance nor will he lead you into misguidance."

Sunni Sources:
Musnad of Ahmad, 5/94;
Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/128;
Kenz Al-Omal, 6/217;
Al-Tabarani.

vedaxcool:
“I am going to leave with you two heavy burdens. The first of them is the Book of Allah: in it is the true guidance and the light. Therefore, hold fast to it.” Then he (the Prophet) prompted and induced the Muslims to adhere to the Book of God. [/b]Then he said: [b]“And my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household.”

This remains the authentic version of the hadith which doesn't convey the shia point of view of MONARCHY.

What was the context of hadith?


We see once again the hadith does not convey the sense shias attribute to it. No evidence of "divine" Selection in the Qur'an. As I have shown in my previous post only followers of the sunnah follow the hadith to the letter.

Say: I do not ask from you any fee (ajran) except for love of the[/my] close relatives. [{al-Qur'an 42:23}]

You said: "no evidence of divine selection in the Quran" and you refer to Almighty God choosing and purifying lineages for Himself as "monarchy". And very sadly is not your claims but that others too are ignorant of the Quran. They like and share your ignorance/kufr.

Read:

“Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds -Descendants, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.” (Holy Quran 3:33-34)

"…Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet Muhammad's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.” (Holy Quran 33:33)

“And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [Allah] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader (imam) for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [Allah] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." (Holy Quran 2:124)

So to vedaxcool, Allah (swt) choosing, and purifying and exalting lineages/households for His service is equal to MONARCHY like that of al Saud (who imposed themselves using bloodshed)? For your info, Shia Islam views monarchy as having no basis in the Sharia and in the Quran and in Islam. In fact it is unislamic. So I wonder how you can attribute monarchy to those who reject monarchy; and call what is evidently God's selection of families/lineages in the Quran as "baseless"/"no evidence" or "monarchy".

Fear Allah! It's never too late to repent. We are all not angels but when we see the truth let us accept it for what it is even if it offends our sensitivities. The family of Ibrahim (as) is not superior to the family of Muhammad (s) just as Ibrahim (as) is not superior to Muhammad (s).

Maybe now the topic can be changed to "the Tragedy of Sex Change in Nigeria" after reading the below!!!! As if the thing is unique to Iran

"ANOTHER YORUBA MAN TRANSFORMS TO WOMAN (see unbelievable photos) "

https://www.naij.com/904730-another-yoruba-man-transforms-woman-see-unbelievable-photos.html

lexiconkabir:
When will you in particular start having sense?

Answer: when you ponder and understand what I posted and you starting thinking like a human being and not a programmed religious robot.

Seun:
Thanks for your responses. Can we talk more about the solutions?

for the solutions, the Egyptians who are Sunnis have led by example. Egypt banned the literature, i.e. books and fatwas, by Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Abdul-Wahab, the propagators of Wahhabism. they banned all extremist Wahhabi/Salafist publications which are mostly centered on Takfiri killings and kill and kill and kill.

ban their literature. do not allow them to have madrassas and teach innocent kids to hate and kill kuffar and other Muslims they pass takfir on. save the children from extremism!!!

starve the Wahhabis of cash. that is the tough part which must be decided by their masters, the western powers if they really are serious about eliminating terrorism which is transported by the Wahhabi ideology as a vehicle. saudi arabia should be divided into three or four countries, and the Wahhabis who are concentrated in Najd be cut off and the oil resources belonging to non-Wahhabis (i.e. the Shia of the Hijaz) should return to the rightful owners. that would be the only way to cut the petro-dollars.

then there is the hajj factor. the pilgrimage to the holy land gets the Wahhabis lots of cash annd avenue to impose their ideology on other Muslims. Makkah and Medina should be placed in the control of the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) and the two cities should have the status of the Vatican City as holy lands for ALL MUSLIMS irrespective of sect/denomination/ideology or whatever doctrinal differences.

The Shia have a centralized scholars system through the marjaiyyah. in Shia Islam, not everyone with a beard and a cap can pass a fatwa calling to jihad. only the handful of ayatollahs who have reached a certain level of acquired knowledge can do that. the Sunni scholars should have a similar licensed based system to give permission on who can pass fatwas, especially to fight. presently, any riff raff can and that is why everyday there is a new Sunni terror group. that should be controlled. control the flow of fatwas and you will control the adrenaline of Sunni youths. i am not saying any foreign body should imposed on Sunnis. there are competent Sunni bodies like AL-AZHAR in Egypt that can handle this well.

BetaThings:
Be devoted to the truth!

You have your own sectarian agenda in this matter

When did ISIS come into being?

Shias, backed by Iran, started suicide bombing in the Muslim countries
I challenge you to deny it

foolishness with a loud mouth does not make you sound smart. you are just stupid. the challenge given to you from years still stands.

PLEASE PRESENT JUST ONE, ONLY, NEWS SOURCE FROM MAINSTREAM MEDIA, WHERE IT WAS REPORTED THAT A SHIA USED SUICIDE BOMBING TO KILL SUNNIS OR CHRISTIANS IN FAITH-BASED KILLING (TAKFIRI KILLING). JUST ONE! YOU WILL NOT FIND ONE!!!

the instance you are referring to is not "suicide bombing". and "suicide bombing" HAS NEVER BEEN used by Shia to bomb others from other faith in Takfiri or faith-based killings. can you deny that?

WHAT YOU HAVE ALWAYS PUBLICIZED: the Shia of Lebanon used "martyrdom operation" to target superior military target occupying their land through force. not to attack mosques, and churches to kill others or innocent people or non-combantants for their difference in faith as WAHHABISM promotes. targeting superior military occupation target through "martyrdom operation" is also used by Palestinian Sunnis against superior Israeli occupation forces occupying their land to inflict maximum damage on legitimate military enemy target. this means has been backed even by Sunni scholars like Sheikh Ahmad Yaseen who was assassinated by Israel. again, fighting occupiers of your land is way DIFFERENT from indiscriminately targeting others on faith-based killings (Takifir killings) which is promoted by the Wahhabi hatred and extremist terror ideology. RESISTANCE TO OCCUPATION is NOT TERRORISM even if Israel calls it terrorism. it is human right for every people under occupation to fight for their liberation using whatever means. even the US constitution gives right to the people to carry arms to fight for their freedom. this has nothing to do with Iran or Shia exclusively. it is not the means used that matters, but the target and purpose. but obviously, sectarianism has eaten into your skull.

that is the only point i will clarify so you do not end up with your sectarian illogical arguments. otherwise, you will fail to realize that only WAHHABISM teaches faith-based killings, a belief totally ALIEN TO ISLAM, and Muslims, be they Shia or mainstream Sunni.

Empiree:
You see, the way the Shia brother is driving this thread, something I already foreseen, would never end well. That's why I keep telling him that the way he's going about it will bring nothing fourth. Seems to me this thread is stalled.

As for solution, in my honest opinion, if this thread was not driven in to sectarian trash, would be West should remove ALL their political and economy interest from the Muslim nations.

Second, remove their army bases.

Will they ever do this?. No.

No, because they can not sustain without Islam, NEVER!. That's why terror!sm will continue.

See how simple I break this down without diving into sectratianism

Brother, you are not getting my point.

My insistence on focusing on Wahhabism and it's takfiri killings is not just sectarian.

Your insistence to turn a blind eye to Wahhabism is why we can never as Muslims be able to collectively and consensually find a Muslim solution to terrorism. You are already in denial and I hope Seun sees that is the reason we cannot have a Muslim solution. I keep hitting the nail on Wahhabism and you guys either keep bringing up Sunni talks or trying to stay in denial.you are covering up for Wahhabis because they declare themselves Sunnis or Muslims and because Wahhabi Saudi is in custody of the holiest shrines of Islam, which wasn't through peaceful methods and consent of the Muslims but through bloodshed about a hundred or so years ago.

When you want to make the West leave Muslims alone, you have to set your house in order.

Wahhabism was created by the British empire to divide Muslims.

Do you think Wahhabis will stand up to the West? Their politicians are western puppets in countries like Saudi and Qatar. Their militants are used by the West for dirty work in Syria and to further sectarian killings. And when these extremists turn their madness on non-Muslims, they hold Islam and Muslims responsible. A double edged sword for Muslims.

Is it not Saudi that brought American military bases to the Arabian peninsula? Is that not the reason bin laden as notorious as he was got angry with the house of saud?

So Wahhabism is a thorn in Islam anyway you want to look at it. It's a tool in the hands of the west. When you want the West to handsfree Muslim countries, will Wahhabism agree? What are those American bases for in the Arabian peninsula if not to protect their puppets ?

So even if we agree to talk about western interference and hegemony, we'd still end up discussing Wahhabism and it's role of destruction for Islam and Muslims. The route you are talking is aimed at avoiding the unavoidable talk. It is shortsighted because you will still get to my point even if your suggestions are practicalized. Do you know that Saudi animosity to Iran is not because Iran is Shia as they like to talk in the media. When Iran was ruled by the shah, Iran and Saudi had excellent relations. The shah was an American puppet and Iran was known as the police of the Middle East. Americas police. When the Islamic Revolution took place and Iranian-American relations deteriorated, suddenly al saud became conscious Iran is Shia. There is still ground for saud and Iran to cooperate. But Saudis will not leave the west they are obedient to out of fear for their reign in power. The Americans can engineer anything in Saudi. So we are in deep $hit. And today if Iran accepts to go under western tutelage, Saudi will be forced to normalize ties with Iran. They will even invent excuses and reasons for Muslim coexistence and sectarian tolerance. It's all politics and sectarianism is a tool in all of this. I am not exonerating the western powers. I'm only saying our house is not in order and there is a cancer we are infected with. We must as Muslims understand the dangers of Wahhabism and how the west is capitalizing on it.

Demmzy15:
I'm just going to reply to the most absurd post I've ever heard. You stated:
No you missed it entirely, Iran hates Israel(even tho there are friends from behind the scenes),

you guys are the most terrible people one can reason with. so you state that:

1.) Iran supplies Palestinians low standard weapons not to deliberately harm Israel enough.

2.) Iran hates Israel

3.) Iran and Israel are friends behind the scene.

i am confused!!!

on the other hand, you have wahhabi saudi that does not help the palestinians with weapons, and not even with money (except selectively) and they have ties with Israel openly. i am yet to read one credible source, other than sectarian propaganda to make you feel good that Iran is friendly with israel behind the scenes. but Saudi Prince Turki al-Faisal openly meets with Israeli officials. a quick google search will prove these my claims; but your fantastic claims are beyond google.

ISIS claims to hate Shias, but kills and beheads Sunnis in Iraaq and Syria. But this three entities are allies, they're working for each other. Iran=Israel=ISIS,

nice fantasy. so ISIS kills hundreds of Shias in Iraq, and plans attacks in Iran, and they are friends with Iran.the mind of a sectarian Sunni!

we are talking of ISIS as Wahhabi. ISIS is Wahhabi. and the point is Wahhabis do kill Sunnis too, but to a less degree. they kill Sunnis in Iraq and Syria who support the state/government, Sunni army officers and their relatives, and Sunnis who reject their wahhabi takfiri killings and ideology.

the scourge of Wahhabi Takfirism and Takfirim killing can make Wahhabis to kill themselves. the point that Wahhabis kill fellow Sunnis or even kill themselves IS NOT NEWS. this is the disease of TAKFIRI KILLINGS. ANYONE WHO IS NOT UP TO THEIR SELECTIVE STANDARD OF "MUSLIM" (even among wahhbis themselves) OR WHO THEY DEEM "NOT MUSLIM ENOUGH", THEY KILL HIM. the danger is they are playing God!!! Last week in the news, ISIS was killing its own members either based on Takfir (they turned "apostates" ) or based on "treason".

you keep mentioning "Sunni" to blanket the atrocities of Wahhabis. you are the one adopting the Wahhabis and all they stand for. i keep saying Wahhabis, and you keep saying "Sunnis". every Sunni can become easily a Wahhabi or is vulnerable to become a Wahhabi through brainwashing and recruitment because Wahahabis answer "Sunni". but the truth is not every Sunni is Wahhabi and the majority are not. open your eyes lest you fall victim unsuspectingly.

Iran went ahead to harbor al-Qaeda operatives who later gave birth to ISIS.

source please. even the CIA has never made such a claim.

Makes perfect sense, Iran destabilizes Sunni countries, Israel kills Sunni Palestinians, ISIS kills Iraaqi, Palestinian, Saudi, Nigerian Sunnis.

what is the definition of "destabilize"? when saudi beheads its Shia population just for speaking up or protesting, is that Iran's fault that there is oppression in Saudi?

we are not talking about politics and theories from your imagination. you are drifting from the thread ALL BECAUSE YOU WANT TO GIVE BLANKET COVER TO WAHHABISM and BECAUSE WAHHABISM IS EQUATED WITH SAUDI AND THEY ANSWER "SUNNI". stop drifting and focus on TERRORISM WHICH THEY SPREAD.

Who doesn't know of the Shias of Medina? Na wa o. The Population of Medina is around 1,000,000 and for you to claim the Shias who don't even constitute up to 40,000 to be majority shows that you're probably missing some nuts from your head!

the Shias of Medina constitute the majority of the indigenous population. understand that the saudis wont tell you that fact.

The attacker attacked near the Prophet's mosque and many pilgrims were there, and there's no evidence whatsoever that he the attacker targeted Shias of Medina. When you concoct rubbish, a times I'm astonished at the way you see people to be gullible. Lol!!
Anyways, I'm done, abeg no quote me again, because if you do, I won't answer you!

it wasn't very or too close to the Prophet's (s) mosque. that is the truth.

but now ask yourself, is this the first time Wahhabi militants are attacking either of the two holy cities in Saudi? how many times have they laid siege to them, used violence, kill people there, even starting with their predecessor and hero whom they love, the murderer of the Prophet's grandson Yazeed? didnt Yazeed destroy the Ka'bah? didnt wahhabi terrorists lay siege to Makkah that took the help of Pakistani special forces to end the siege? holy violence by wahhabis!!!

Demmzy15:
^^That's a big lie, you don't care about any Sunni. You praised Nasrideen Al Tusi for his betrayal in which thousand of civilians were killed.

na by force for Tusi to help you? na who una help? shia iran is helping sunni palestinians but you're still ungrateful.

You have nothing to do with Burmese Muslims or Palestinians except to burn flags and chant empty slogans of "death to America, death to Israel". Even Saddam Hussein at least fired missiles into Israel but your beloved Iran never did, all they know how to do is to harbor al-Qaeda terrorists. Have you ever wondered why ISIS doesn't attack Iran? It's because there's a covenant of security between them, this is why ISIS goes on to attack the heart of Islam(Medina) but protects the Holy cities of Qom, Mashhad, etc.

yeah, nice theory. but isis never attacks israel too. and israel is saudi ally.

and besides, Medina has majority Shia indigenous population, and the attack was targeting Shia in Medina. read on the Nakhawilah of Medina, the indigenous Shia population the saudi govt do not want you to know of.

in the last two week, Iran has busted two wahhabi terror cells related to ISIS planning to attack Iran, and particularly Tehran. isis has not attacked Iran because Iranians are majority Shia and they do not offer safe haven in their societies for wahhabi terrorists. they are quickly identified and fished out. a quick google search will reveal what i am expressing here. two isis terror cells arrested by iranian security forces.

https://www.rt.com/news/347691-iran-terrorist-plot-ramadan/

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/iran-foils-major-terrorist-attacks-tehran-other-provinces-683519

Shi'as don't need to blow themselves up, they've done a lot more worse. They ran death squad killing Sunnis who bare names like Umar, Khalid, Mu'awiyah etc in Iraaq, they've killed and injured Sunnis in Bahrain. That's how pathetic you're, Iran is a terrorist state and the state religion is Ithna Ashiri, the masters of Takfir. This terrorist state imports thousands of fighters into Syria to kill Sunnis, they've destabilized Yemen, they arm groups in Gaza so as when they attack Israel killing 2 Israelis the Zionists kill 20 Muslims in return. That's how they've helped the Palestinians, they then burn flags beating and crying like roaches. Mr man, better get off my mention, your hypocrisy stinks!!!

keep whining and forming stories from your fantasies!!! first fantasy: shia kill sunnis bearing sunni names. what if those bearing those names are terrorists? one attack after the other since 2003 targeting shia civilians, and killing hundreds week in and week out, and you expect the iraqis to fold their arms and not get rid of terrorists? they get rid of those terrorists on the battlefield, fighting man to man; not through coward suicide bombing targeting civilians indiscriminately. why were Sunni civilians from Anbar province rushing to Najaf (a Shia and holy city in Iraq) for safe haven and to escape ISIS if Sunni civilians were being killed? this was in the news google will help you:

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/07/iraq-ramadan-iftar-food-poor-charity-sectarianism.html

but i could not find any news source stating that it was Sunni civilians targeted for bearing those names you mentioned.

second fantasy, is that iran gives palestinians weapons to kill 2 zionists and make israel kill 20 "muslims". mehn! these iranians must be either geniuses or witches!!! they give weapons that can even control the number of enemy deaths, and also determine the number of deaths the enemies will inflict in retaliation. the height of ingratitude that is what you fool have displayed. but i honestly do not understand if you are a child who is wasting my time through your rubbish theories, or your mind is just extremely stupid. how does your mind concoct such stupid imaginations?

so you kill Shia in bahrain and yemen, and then you blame the Shia when an oppressive bahrain police get a stone reaching his head by unarmed bahraini protesters. since your wahhabi saudi started bombing yemen, over 10,000 yemeni civilians (Zaidi Shias) have been killed, and about a 1000 children. the UN listed saudi arabia among those who abuse children's right and kill children. saudi threatened to cut funds to the UN if Ban Ki Moon does not delist saudi arabia. within a week, Moon dropped saudi arabia from the list of children killers:

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/09/middleeast/saudi-arabia-un-children/

Demmzy15:
Masha'Allaah, after reading about Abubakar(ra), I'll love to see Umar(ra), Uthman(ra), Aliyy(ra), Hasan(ra) and Mu'awiyah(ra)

the peak of stupidity!

when you revere both the murderer and the murdered, and both the oppressor and his oppressed victim: this is what your beliefs have taught you and made out of you a zombie. what you needed to do to be an exemplary wahhabi zombie is to have included the name of Imam Hussein (as) and Yazeed (la) side by side and place after their names (ra) so your stupidity and blindness will be complete. watch the saudi wahhabi mufti vindicate yazeed (la) and praise him:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98bK3V7JNfY

just as you bless Usthman, and you also bless Usthman's killer, Amr bin al-Hamq al-Khuzai because both were "companions". in that way the wahhabi mufti of saudi who is a yazeed lover will be very proud of you. watch egyptian wahhabi/salafist cleric bless both usthman and his killer after he had mistakenly (in a previous TV show episode) cursed the killer of Usthman not knowing the killer was also a sahabi (companion); He was quick to repent in the next episode to bless both Usthman and his killer because he was told Amr Ibn Hamq al-Khuzzai was also a "companion" :

(watch how Sheikh Yassir al Habib ridicules the Wahhabi/Salafist cleric, Muhammad Hassaan below; both contradictory episodes of Hassaan are also contained below).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL9KlyNV4YU

Demmzy15:
^^Your problem is that you can't make simple clear points without involving sectarianism and rubbish politics. You aren't doing any favors for me or anyone here, for you make an assertion that I gain from the "petrodollars" is very childish and unreasonable. You keep nagging about how Shi'as are killed in Iraaq(when it's a known fact that saudi arabia doesn't have any connections with Iraaq, except that they share borders) but you say nothing about the thousands of Syrians that have killed. Your yardstick to judge is when you see Shias killed but Sunnis, they mean nothing to you!
But what is my very annoying is despite the explanations and lessons given to you, you still prefer to behave like a robot, it's just as if nothing enters your head anymore, it's just what has been programmed into you by your "Husseiniyats" that's what you keep purging out. The fact and truth of the matter is that "Wahhabism has nothing to do with Terrorism", I discovered this myself! So you can keep nagging and masturbating about every thread with your programmed rubbish.
Please for crying out loud, stop mentioning Palestinians in your propaganda. You've nothing for them except to burn Israeli and American flags and lip services of empty slogans. That's all you're known for!

this thread is about politics and religion. so i wonder how you want me to exclude them in my posts and still make sense. do you expect me to write posts in this thread on pokemon?

majority of suicide bombers in Iraq are Saudi nationals. Iraqi prisons are filled up with Saudi nationals arrested on terrorism related grounds.

i care about oppressed Sunnis in Burma and Palestine and before, in Bosnia. do you care about Shias anywhere?

Sunnis generally have been the ones holding political power in the middle east particular, even in Shia majority lands. so how do you expect them to be oppressed?

in Syria, again what is the role of Isis and Nusra terrorist groups? are these not groups following Wahhabi/Salafist teachings? what is the role of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Qatar and their western masters in destabilizing Syria? is Syria an Islamic Republic? is it a theocracy like iran? syria is secular. the main reason it is burning is because it is secular, because it is led by an Alawite (a Shia sub-sect), and because Syria maintains its opposition to the israeli occupation. the western nations and the wahhabi led countries found grounds to unite and destroy Syria. no one is killing Sunnis in Syria for being Sunni. the majority of the Syria army is made up of Sunnis. so it is Sunnis killing Sunnis? and besides, are those Sunnis combatants or not? if they are civilians, are they targeted in cold blood, as is the case in Iraq where Shias get targeted in cold blood in the places one would least expect? there is civil war in Syria. if civilians get killed in the crossfire, are they targeted for their faith? i dont think so. Syria, its government and army represent the STATE. they are not fighting a religious war. they are not killing civilians but combatants. except if you follow the sectarian lies of aljazeera that assad is "killing his people". and this is the same assad who ruled syria for 11 years without bloodshed. syria was the most peaceful country in the middle east. and this is the same assad that syrians would rather live in the territory he controls than in the territory under ISIS and co. and what does Syria and its civil war have to do with faith-based killings carried out by Wahhabis against others? when you can show me one case of a Shia blowing himself up in a Sunni mosque or in a Christian church, or indiscriminately killing civilians of other faiths in marketplaces in faith-based killing or takfiri killing mission, then you can make a point and i will hear you. until then, keep quiet! who blow themselves up amongst civilians because of the faith they profess? do not mix up issues to hide the truth about WAHHABISM and Takfiri killings. if you have no interests, then why do you want to hide the truth?

and i said WAHHABISM, not Sunnism. wahhabism, even with the saudi petro dollars and the tons of saudi wahhabi literature and brainwashing, represents a tiny fraction of Sunnis. i say wahhabism, and you keep telling me about Sunnis. i do not see them as the same even though Wahhabi present themselves as Sunnis because that is how they get recruits and spread in the larger body of Muslims. so you are the one that should even be worried and be thankful to me for exposing the truth. tell me thank you. and do not waste my time by deliberately trying to mix issues up and hide the truth and try your utmost to spread denial.

and fear Allah!