Qasim6:


Suddenly, girls below age 15 that have reached puberty fall into your category of women in the ancient world.

At least we can both agree now that reaching puberty was the thin line between a girl and a woman in the ancient/mediaeval times. And we can stop our anachronistic judgemental of people of the past.

Guy the argument here is prepubertal sex!!!
I agree things of the past should be left to the past.
But Quran claim to be eternal and that's the problem.
That's why it can't be from God. At least that surah on divorce can't be from God.
Prepubertal sex is evil.

Now let me explain why prepubertal sex is evil.

The woman is only ready for sexual intercourse when the vaginal wall has received enough estrogen to help relax the muscles and keep the environment moist, this will allow for adequate expansion and elasticity during penetrations.
Now surge of estrogen comes from the ovary with the onset of puberty.
Without the actions of this hormone, sex will be very painful to a girl, the vaginal wall may bruise or even bleed.

Same reason some menopausal women also have painful sex cos the aged ovary has stopped producing estrogen.

God in his infinite wisdom will never approve such painful action on a child just because an adult wants to derive pleasure.

Qasim6:


Ok

And do you think what they were doing giving out "matured women" in marriage before age 15 at the start of their puberty in ancient Israel was wrong

👍👍👍👍
This is what I want, bring evidence so we can learn.
If I reject it, I will bring my own counter evidence.
This is the strength of argument, not just rejecting because it doesn't suit your narrative.

15 is not too young get married in ancient civilization.
Most 15 yr old girls in the west already have boyfriends and some are even having sex.

However prepubertal marriage is not allowed in Jewish antiquity irrespective of circumstances.

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10435-marriage-laws

Qasim6:


Then tell us the age of these women or what we should look for na with Bible passage you are using as reference

If a woman completed puberty lets say at age 10, are they ready for marriage?

No girl complete puberty at 10 except she has precocious puberty and that's a medical condition.

Qasim6:


Your problem is you are thinking you are having a got ya moment with Q 64:5 but you have nothing.
Sexual intercourse is not permissible with prepubescent girls in Islam. So rest!

Yinmu🥱🥱🥱
Be lying to yourself.
As if U better than Ibn Kathir, Ibn Abbas's and Jalalayn who all confirmed the verse is about prepubertal girls who are yet to menstruate.
If U like, reject the writings in your tafsir, it's your cup of tea.
Ancient Jews cannot be trusted.
Bible scholars cannot be trusted
Dead sea scrolls cannot be trusted.
Now it's your tafsir that's corrupted and should be rejected.
Your case is irredeemable.

Qasim6:

The word used in the verse is Nisa which means women and not girls, so that verse is referring to women that have matured in age and physicality but for some reason are not seeing their periods

Now this is getting more confusing...
This is not I will never understand about islam.
The Qur'an says Allah has brought a clear book for guidance but if anything I've learnt today is that the Qur'an is not clear even to Muslims.

According to Qasim, the verse is talking about matured girls who are yet to menstruate
According to honesttalk and antiChristian the verse is talking about young girls but they haven't had sex and iddah mean reconciliation.
According to the Tafsir, the verse is about young girls who are yet to menstruate and waiting for 3 months to be sure they are not pregnant.

So the question is who should I believe. Qasim who amongst U 3 is correct ?

Qasim6:

If we are to take your meaning that the verse is referring to prepubescent girls what that would mean is there won't be minimum age of marriage/intercourse. But we know from Qur'an 4:6 that there is minimum age of marriage/intercourse

Q4:6 Test the orphans until they reach a marriageable age. Then if you feel they are capable of sound judgment, return their wealth to them. And do not consume it wastefully and hastily before they grow up. If the guardian is well-off, they should not take compensation; but if the guardian is poor, let them take a reasonable provision. When you give orphans back their property, call in witnesses. And sufficient is Allah as a Reckoner.

This verse is literarily telling us there is a marriageable age/intercourse age and that age is when one is capable of sound judgement and that age also coincide with when one is able to some extent manage wealth.

[/quote]

What U quote up there is talking about mental competence. It has nothing to do with sexual intercourse in prepubertal age.

Test the intelligence of all orphans until they reach marriageable age( which we don't know).
Then if they are competent- give them their wealth.
This has nothing to do with prepubertal sex and divorce.
U could reach the age of marriage and not be competent enough to manage your wealth- and this can be at any age anyway.
And above is what my question is all about. Are there females who had reached the age of marriage according to the Qur'an but are not mentally and physically competent enough to handle the responsibility. That's what we are trying to investiagte in surah 65.4

I can bring the Tafsir of surah 4.6 if U want me to.....provided U don't reject it like you have done for Tafsir on divorce.

Qasim6:


I checked proverbs 31. It doesn't seems to answer my question. I can only find therein quality of a good wife.

My question is what is the Objective morality of God in Christainity concerning marriageable age for girls? and what has it been over the centuries?

Guy, girls don't get married in the bible. U have to be a woman to be married.

Woman means someone who has completed puberty.

honesttalk21:


On the contrary I am too stupid to be in any way associated with intelligence.

You provided a screenshot of the summary of divorce by Talaq (pronouncements of the husband).

It presents description of iddah after divorce.

You however did not consider that even in unconsumated marriages for however short or long the couples will have seen some degree of one another's aura.
Even if the marriage was not consummated didn't the couple have even the most limited physical contact that should ideally not be except for marital couples?

Islam considers divorce a last resort after all attempts at reconciliation have been exhausted.

The iddah provides another period for possible reconciliation not just certainty of pregnancy.

This isn't compulsory for an unconsumated marriage. Patience is a great virtue in addressing our affairs.

Now; amongst other things the iddah is one of the means to reconciliation.

Despite what you think you know or see sometimes wrongly practiced Islam neither encourages prepubescent sex or marriage.

So iddah is for reconciliation...hmmm
Tell me, then why do widows practice iddah?

Qasim6:


Where did u get the Idea that I am using their beliefs to validate Islam from?

I'm just showing you these are first century Christians that scholars believed held a view about Jesus that would have been closer to what the Original apostles that walk with him during his ministries held

They literally believed your God is a mere man. That is your problem not mine.

You are not answering my question.
Just forget it.

I also noticed U carefully avoided the prepubertal question.
That's fine by me.
Better be silent than open your mouth and make an embarrassment of yourself.
Your colleagues have started redefining iddah here....
I find that very dishonest.

U will never see a Christian redefine 1 Samuel 15 even if we deem it very uncomfortable.

Qasim6:


Alright, no problem.

I want you to bring back those ancient Jewish writings and demonstrate how the Messiah fulfilled or is going to fulfill the Daniel prophecy and I will also demonstrate how prophet Muhammad fulfilled the prophecy.

And we will see if you won't run into problem of a failed prophecy.

Shey u talk say u get agidi ni

Start with the one with one I posted.
Did the ancient Jews believed in a divine Messiah Yes or No.
They don't know either Jesus or Muhammed. So doing wurururu to the answer won't help U like U did with Daniel 7 and 8.

The question is did they believe in a divine Messiah?

Qasim6:


I know who the Essenes were.

And don't even think about coming here with John the Baptist have something to do with them. Because I saw you pushing the narrative the last time, I just decided to ignore your erroneous assumption.

Some Scholars believe John the baptist was Essene. He has similar believe with them- water baptism, believe in divine Messiah, apocalyptic message, ascetic lifestyle, his ministry near river Jordan is close to Qumran the main base of Essene.
According to scholars, Essene beliefs within the group is quite diverse and he could have been a sect within the sect.
Is that not what U doing here with Ebionites and being true Muslims. U admit some of their beliefs contradict Islam but regard them as Muslims because some align with the Qur'an.
So why can't it be the same for John the baptist and Essene?
U see the double hypocrisy here....

Qasim6:


Keep running helter skelter like a headless chicken.

You yourself look at what the Ebionites believed then compare their beliefs to present day Christianity and Islam and tell me which of the two religions is in sync with the Ebionites.

That is only if you can be truthful with yourself for some few seconds sha.

Guy defend your Qur'an. Even if Christianity is false doesn't make Islam true.
I started this conversation bocs I wanted to prove to U that Qur'an can't be from God.
This isnt about validity of Christianity.

Where did the ebionites get the message that Jesus died and resurrected on the 3rd day?
Did Allah convey the message to ISA companions that Jews didn't crucify ISA but he rescued him?
Did he tell Muslims in the first century that ISA didn't die or he waited for 600 yrs to tell Muslims.
Did ISA tell any of his companions that he is the son of GOD- metaphorical, begotten or adopted.
That's what I want to know. If Ebionites or seven sleepers are believers according to Qur'an where did they got their erroneous believe from?

If U don't have the answer, just say so and end the discussion.
Bringing Christianity to defend Islam makes no sense because U guys already said it's a false religion.
I will never use another religion to defend validity of Christianity. Straight up the bible and nothing else.

Qasim6:


You seems not to be getting it

We don't do blind faith here, I don't just believe things like a zombie.

What you are going to share, is it a Bible prophecy or is it in line with a prophecy and it doesn't need any wuru-wuru to the answer? If not you can keep it. Don't bring me writings of People that have no authority from God.

Who are the Essenes?
Read about them, come back and we will talk about their believes.
I actually took time to explain who the Essenes were in the previous thread.
But of course u didn't read.

Go and read about them yourself, then come back and we will discuss their believes.

Qasim6:


-The Ebionites believed Jesus is a mere man, a Prophet and the Messiah
-They rejected his divinity or pre-existence
-Even though they believed Jesus was crucified and he resurrected after 3 days, they did not see his death as vicarious atonement, because they continue to follow the law.
-They believed Paul was a false apostle and apostate
-They used a different Gospel of Matthew different from the one they used today. Their version of gospel did not survive for reasons we don't know.
-They believed Jesus became son of God at his baptismal (obviously in metaphorical sense because they rejected his divinity)
-Scholars believe they held a view closer to what the Original apostles of Jesus would have held.

If Ebionites were the true Muslim in the first century, that means they were the followers of Isa teaching.

So who told them Jesus was crucified and resurrected on the 3rd day.
Who told them there was a time Jesus wasn't the Son of God, then after a while became Son of God by adoption.
Where did they get this teaching from? Was it from ISA or from the injil.

Did Isa tell them he was adopted son of God.

Stop making this about Paul. This isn't Paul but evidence of true Muslims.

because what I'm getting from U is U are a true Muslim in the first pre Islam if U are against the teaching of Paul.

That can't be correct because your Qur'an didn't even mention Paul at all. And equally rejected death and resssurection of Christ.

honesttalk21:


I talk too much when you ask questions and seem not to understand answers given?

Is it wrong to try to explain as much as possible so maybe you can understand?

Is the wait only to ensure absence of pregnancy? Too bad for the limits of your thinking

Common man, U are way too intelligent for this nonsense U bringing up here.
If U don't have something valid to say, just ignore and move all.

We all know most educated modern Muslims have better moral standards than what's written in the Quran.
I know U will never support paedophilia, so chill.
U don't need to make a mockery of your brain here....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/12667

Qasim6:


you have brought nothing again, you are just deceiving yourself.

The scenario of what happened in John 10 already put all these ur claims of 'son of God' meaning divinity in the bin where it belongs.
Jesus clearly used the title 'son of God' to refute their claim of blasphemy.

Bring screenshot from now till tomorrow, u r just hiding like an ostrich.

I can give U the link if U want to...
If I bring the link, will U read it?

I will continue to ignore your John 10 argument because it makes no sense.
If U want to die in top the chapter that's up to U.

AntiChristian:
Who told you girls who were not matured to sleep with are forced to it?



The reason for the enactment of all laws is not needed here. If you think the law was made to ONLY check pregnancy then that's false. Even a woman who is married and yet to go into the bedroom can be divorced and will still need to go through the waiting period!

Waiting for what! What is she waiting for ?

May we not follow a book that will eventually make a fool out of us!!!
May we not be forced to defend a religion that will make us argue against common sense.

AntiChristian say Amen!!!!


Below is from islamic source....b4 Qasim will say I'm doing bogus screenshot

https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/12667

Qasim6:


It's obvious some of you don't really care about the truth, you just want to win argument at all cost, even if you have to pretend to be dumb.

That incident in John 10 is killing 2 birds with a stone.

-He was refuting the claim that he is God
-We also able to deduce that the term 'son of God' was not understood to mean divinity at the time.

Have I not trashed this your argument about this 'son of man' in book of Daniel in our previous discussion? that I had to soft pedal with you cause I could sensed u wr already choking. But here you are shamelessly bringing it again.

Hahaha....
I brought tons of evidence on how ancient Jews interpreted Daniel 7.
U brought none. All U did was reject evidence upon evidence until U went mute.

Initially u wanted to run to ancient Jews to argue your case, when U saw evidence against U...U quickly changed gear and said ancient Jews cannot be trusted in the way they interpreted their text.
Then I brought evidence from academic bible scholars, U said they are anti Islam and cannot be
trusted
I brought dead sea scrolls as evidence, U claimed it's corrupted and cannot be trusted.
Them I asked U, who should I trust? Up till today no answer.
If U think U won that argument, U must be living in delulu land.
I successfully dislocated your ability to appeal to ancient Judaism to argue Islam is true.
I will bring some of the evidence here again for all to see.....
Did ancient Judaism see Son of Man in Daniel 7.13 as divine.....

Qasim6:


-The Ebionites believed Jesus is a mere man, a Prophet and the Messiah
-They rejected his divinity or pre-existence
-Even though they believed Jesus was crucified and he resurrected after 3 days, they did not see his death as vicarious atonement, because they continue to follow the law.
-They believed Paul was a false apostle and apostate
-They used a different Gospel of Matthew different from the one they used today. Their version of gospel did not survive for reasons we don't know.
-They believed Jesus became son of God at his baptismal (obviously in metaphorical sense because they rejected his divinity)
-Scholars believe they held a view closer to what the Original apostles of Jesus would have held.

My brothers in Islam AntiChristian honesttalk21 are they not Muslims of their time??

U probably thought what we are rejecting is the fact that Jesus was called the son of God. No bro. It is the present day Christian understanding of the term we are rejecting.

A lot of people were called the son of God in the Bible. and Qur'an also make that known to us.
Q 21:26 And they say, “The Most Merciful has taken a son.” Exalted is He! Rather, they are [but] honored servants.

Qasim wait until you write your own Quran then U can misinterpret it the way U want.

Your Allah is against anyone saying he has a son be it Jews or Christian.
Be it metaphorical or begotten

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

So if the problem with Son of God is the divine way Christians use it, why did God condemned Jews for calling one of their prophets Son of God?
It even said Allah will destroy anyone that says he has a Son.

Your hadith even said Jews will be thrown into hell because they called Ezra Son of God.
I'm not even going to enter the absurdity of such claim but it shows how God equally rejected any sonship ascribed to prophets by the Jews.

Your Allah also condemned Israelites for calling themselves children of Allah and said they hold no such status.

The Jews and the Christians each say, “We are the children of Allah and His most beloved!” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Why then does He punish you for your sins? No! You are only humans like others of His Own making. He forgives whoever He wills and punishes whoever He wills. To Allah ˹alone˺ belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything in between. And to Him is the final return.”

Surah 21.26 was correcting the erroneous impression the people had that Allah has a Son, he told them whoever they wererefereing to as Son is just a slave to him and NOT a Son.
Or u want me to bring the tafsir?

Modern enlightened Muslims like Qasim will deny and lie against their own Quran just to prove a point against Christianity.

Qasim if U don't have a problem with the way Jews use the phrase Son of God, it's very unfortunate because your Qur'an definitely has a problem with it.
And that makes U a disbeliever.

The latest one they doing now is to say there's nothing wrong in saying Son of God or God is Father so long as it's metaphorical.

ITS A BIG LIE, CHRISTIANS NO GREE FOR THEM O...
THEY ARE LYING AGAINST THEIR OWN QURAN.
SHOW THEM THESE VERSES AS EVIDENCE OF THEIR FALAEHOOD.

AntiChristian:


Demon can't seek refuge from Allah in almost every chapter of the Qur'an.

And it's clear the demon can't reveal the Qur'an!

Abeg meshionu with your Christianity that doesn't come from Christ!

Who told U demons can't reveal the Qur'an.
Didn't Satan put Quranic verses into the tongue of Muhammed...the satanic verses?

AntiChristian:


Does he need to mention Paul for you to explain how wages and provisions became the same?

Luke never met Jesus. And the eyewitness he mentioned he received his gospel from in Luke 1:1-4 was also not mentioned!

So we still have Paul to fill in the gap!

Like said his sources were eye witnesses...people who met and spoke to Jesus.
Did Paul meet Jesus?

AntiChristian:


It's half truth when you mention wound for prepubescent girls and kept mute for menopausal woman! You are a liar!

The law goes together for both of them! Why separate them to achieve your false aim?

menopausal women can endure rigours of sex, they had it all their life's.
young girl pelvis is still developing and any penetration can lead to injury.

AntiChristian:

And is there any copulation mentioned therein?

is pregnancy possible without copulation?
why is iddah set up by Allah? why is Allah saying wives should wait 3 months b4 divorce is completed.

honesttalk21:


Surah At-Talaq, verse 4 of the Quran addresses the issue of waiting period (iddah) for women after divorce.

Translation of the meaning of this verse is
And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

This verse is specific to the waiting period in cases of divorce and does not condone or promote any form of harm or exploitation of women.

Your major concern is about those who have not menstrated isn't It?

With regards to this the historical interpretation by classical scholars is to allow marriage with prepubescent girls, which was common in many ancient cultures. However, the consummation of marriage was generally expected to occur after the girl reached puberty. Even at that there are many "adult" women well over 30 that have terribly irregular periods. I dare say it is even genetic as I have seen this in someone about 50 and her 24 years old daughter.

In the modern context, this verse is often discussed in light of changing cultural norms and legal standards regarding the age of marriage. Many contemporary scholars emphasize the importance of physical and emotional maturity in marriage and argue that cultural practices should evolve with time while adhering to Islamic principles of justice and care.

So while this verse particularly reflects historical practices, contemporary interpretations may emphasize the need for physical and emotional maturity in marriage, considering modern understandings of human development and rights.

Note the practicalities of revelation in tandem with actual realities. There were no arbitrary revelations to push for sudden apparently draconian laws.

Do not feign ignorance of the illegal abusive behind the scenes gross abuse of minor girls worldwide nor regard this sentence as a form of justification.

u talk too much
why should Quran be asking prepubescent girls to wait for 3 months b4 being kicked out of their husband house if there was no prior sex.
the iddah was set up to prevent a woman leaving her failed marriage with pregnancy.
can a woman be pregnant without sex?
So obviously the husband has been sleeping with the young girl for Allah to say she must wait 3 months just to r/o pregnancy b4 leaving her husband house

honesttalk21:


Did the marriage not follow from divorce?

Do you also say divorcees shouldn't remarry?

Is the axiom not about marrying the divorced wife of an adopted son?

The point is no matter human sentiment or emotions an adopted child can never equal biological. Therein is the lesson

If I may ask should we continue in ungodly activities because of an attachment to culture?

How is adoption ungodly. who made it ungodly.

AntiChristian:


My question is if Jesus talks to you or devil in Jesus's coat how will you differentiate?

And did Jesus ever tell you he will come talk to anyone or just send your holy spirit?

Show us from your Bible?

How did Muhammed know that the person who appeared to him was an angel and not a demon.

In Christianity we test all spirit by the scripture. The spirit of God will not go against the word of God.

AntiChristian:


Luke wrote his gospel according Paul!

I don't accept anything on your Bible!

As all of the authors are fictitious and can't be readily confirmed or authenticated!

Since u admit that Luke wrote the gospel according to Luke.
what are his sources? Did he tell us his sources?
Did he mention Paul as one of his sources?

Qasim6:


"Allah bringing forth a son" what does that even mean.?
It will still go back to Allah willing this son into existence which simply means creating a son, how is that son different from all of his other creations?
God is telling us the Idea of him having a son is beneath him.

The only way there can be that special son you are thinking about is if we have a man God and a woman God and they procreate to give us a son God. Anything short of that you are just a creation of God.

The Idea that God is omnipotent exclude things that are beneath him
God cannot become a man
God cannot cease to exist
God cannot have a son
God cannot lie
Things like these are beneath God.

u still dont get, u are even making things worse for your Allah.
In today's modern world, u dont need a partner to have a child. Human genetic cloning has made such concept a possibility.
They now grow human embryo and zygote in the lab from just one person NOT two. We had the first human clone few years ago in china!!!
The reason it's not common is because of ethical issues, the technology is there.
How come Allah didnt know of cloning when he was dictating the Quran to muhammed.
If humans can generate another human from within him, what stop almighty Allah from doing the same. How come he didnt know that was a possibility.
Sorry but looks like a serious knowledge deficit on the part of Allah which shows he's NOT ALL KNOWING.

AntiChristian:


Did you mention menopausal woman?

Didn't you mention wound?

Show us where you saw wound or injury for both menopausal and prepubescent girls?

are u suffering from cognitive dissonance. I'm asking u about prepubescent girls, what's my business with menopausal women.
What's a girl too young to menstruate doing with a matured adult male in the other room?

Qasim6:


It is permissible to give young girls in marriage in Islam, and that has always been the case every where in the world.

But if the girl is not matured yet for intercourse, be it she is yet to see her period or not ready physically then it is not permissible for her guardian to give her to her husband till she's able for it. as we see in the case of the prophet marriage with Aisha.

So Qur'an 65:4 that you are alluding to is not talking about prepubescent girls. because even if they have been married, they have no business in the man household as of yet.

There are cases of Women that have matured physically and in age but never see their period a condition known as Amenorrhea. are these women not deserve to be married ?.
So that verse is clearly describing women that are advanced in age, they are matured physically but they never see their period. Because prepubescent married girl wouldn't even be in the man household for a start.

I keep saying it Modern enlightened Muslims are becoming ashamed of their Quran that in the near future they will pioneer the effort to reinterpret the book by writing their own tafsir and hadiths.
I can bet that Qasim has never met an 18 year old girl with primary ammenorrhea in his life- that's because they are so rare.
By age 16, 99.99% of all teenage girls would have attained menarche. Yet he's hanging his hope on a select group of extremely rare girls to safe his book from embarrassment.
well lets see what the TAFSIR OF THE VERSE HAS TO SAY

Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir
The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses
Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. see 2:228 The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying;

Qasim and Honesttalk will come here now and argue Ibn Kathir is on his own and didn't speak for Muhammed. so let me bring another great Islamic scholar and what he said about the verse....

Abbas - Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months. Another man asked: “what is the waiting period for those women who are pregnant?” (And for those with child) i.e. those who are pregnant, (their period) their waiting period (shall be till they bring forth their burden) their child. (And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah) and whoever fears Allah regarding what he commands him, (He maketh his course easy for him) He makes his matter easy; and it is also said this means: He will help him to worship Him well.


Even Jalalayn talk him own.....

Jalal - Al-Jalalayn
And [as for] those of your women who (read allā’ī or allā’i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months — both cases apply to other than those whose spouses have died; for these [latter] their period is prescribed in the verse: they shall wait by themselves for four months and ten [days] [Q. 2:234]. And those who are pregnant, their term, the conclusion of their prescribed [waiting] period if divorced or if their spouses be dead, shall be when they deliver. And whoever fears God, He will make matters ease for him, in this world and in the Hereafter.

Now Qasim, I will ask YOU the question again....IS SEX WITH A PREPUBESCENT GIRL A SIN ACCORDING TO THE QURAN?
honesttalk, u can help your brother answer the question.

I wont bother calling AntiChristian or Abutwin, those ones no kuku get shame...they will say anything to cover up the Quran even if it doesnt make sense. Their conscience is long dead.

Qasim6:

So what is the Objective morality of God in Christainity concerning marriageable age for girls? and what has it been over the centuries?
Did the early church fathers not talk about it at all?
Because I really want to know your take with the way you guys are always quick to play this pedophile card against Islam and our Prophet.

Marriage is for adult women.
read proverbs 31. 10-31. That's the expectation for a wife in the bible.
If u think a prepubescent girl can meet those expectation, then I dont think we should be having this discussion in the first place.

Qasim6:




Just so you know, the gospel of Matthew they used is not the same as the one we have now o
The one they used was written in Hebrew and it was described in way that it is different from the forged one we have now.

How do U know what's in the Hebrew Mathew gospel. Do I have it's contents.
What we know is that it contains the logia of Jesus.
And Didache - a eucharist used by Jewish Christians in the first century has lots of passages on the logia of Jesus from the gospel of Mathew we have today.
In fact U will think Didache is a repetition of the Mathew gospel.
.and FYI- Didache was believed to have been written in the 50- 70AD.

Qasim6:


No, I don't believe that

Why do you think the word Lord automatically means Jesus ?

because Lord in Christianity is always used for Jesus Christ. God is used for Father.

If U disagree pls bring counter evidence otherwise rest.

Qasim6:



Even if the Ebionites believed in death and resurrection of Jesus, they did not see it as vicarious atonement. Because they continue to follow the law and Paul was apostate to them. In my book they are Muslims of their time.

Antichristian and honesttalk do U agree with him?
Qasim is calling Ebionites Muslims.
People who believed in the death and resssurection of Jesus can be called Muslims.
I thought the Qur'an is the eternal word of God, So U mean the definition of Muslim was different during the time of Jesus.
So are U saying during the time of Jesus, someone who believed in the death and resssurection of Jesus, who also believed Jesus is the adopted Son of God can be called a Muslim?
what then is the usefulness of the injil that Jesus brought if this heresy abound amongst true Muslims believers who were followers of Isa.
What exactly did Isa taught? If Isa didn't teach that he's the adopted Son of God, where did the ebionites muslims learn it from? Who taught them?

Me I don't understand again, because what Qasim is arguing here is really confusing.
AntiChristian and honesttalk pls clarify.

Qasim6:


You thrashed nothing bro, you are just deceiving yourself.

Let's go to the gospel of John where the term was used extensively.

In John 10:30 where Jesus was reported to have said "I and the Father are one" and the Jews tried to stone him he said to them “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” they said he claimed to be God and Jesus responded back that is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods"’? That he is only claiming to be Son of God.

Why did Jesus used that to debunk their claim of blasphemy? Was he using what they would have considered to be blasphemous title to refute their accusation of blasphemy?

And Why did they not accused him of blasphemy for calling himself son of God if what they believed that meant was he's claiming to be divine?

That verse U quoted has nothing to do with Jesus being the Son of God. The verse is about Jesus being God.

Let's see what Jesus himself said about being the Son of God. Directly from his mouth not some illogical or wuruwuru deduction.
Mark 14

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

In case U not aware, Jesus' statement as the Son of Man coming from the clouds is a reference to Daniel 7.13
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence
That was why the high Priest shouted blasphemy.

Qasim6:


You thrashed nothing bro, you are just deceiving yourself.
.

Ok, I have heard U.
I sha know it's impossible for me to ignore evidence and be accepting illogical claims from someone who haven't brought one single evidence since this argument began.

Son of God as divine in the dead sea scrolls text.