₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
Your question seems to be mixing moral values, cultural mores and personal taste. People's perception of tattoos and piercings is not a moral value judgement, it is a cultural and/or personal one. I personally do not like tattoos or piercings but I don't see the people who do so as immoral so my objection to my daughter marrying such a person is not because I think the person is immoral. I would object not only for my personal distaste but also because she and the children they'll likely have will suffer needless societal prejudice.

U guys don't get. why will he suffer societal prejudice and why does that bother u. u people just keep dancing around the loop. come out and admit u benefit from the moral fibre established by religious belief.
no one will bite u.

HacheNoire:
I am no a Muslim but you can’t deny that’s those Islamic countries are saner than western countries?

Do you know how many millionaires and billionaires the west has lost to Islamic countries ?

Humans always demand serenity, peace, morals, etiquettes and sanity. On the entire earth, only in some Islamic country you will find that!

In the name of FREEDOM, western countries is mass producing demons and pornsterss

which islamic country, I hope u not thinking of dubai.
because last time I checked, the only thing separating dubai from las vegas is open prostitution and gambling
all other vices are are very much present in dubai.
the serenity u talking about is strict law enforcement- no pandering to woke culture or political correctness. u mess up, u are dealt with severely.

We must bring back this practice. I can give up on other traditional practice but this bride price only for virgins concept must be restored.

The idea of spending heavily for bride price on a woman who has lost her honour in a careless manner is nauseating to say the least.

Let's bring back bride price only for virgins. Girls must learn to have dignity and shame by force by fire.

madridguy:
This is a great news. May Allah bless the resistance force, the Ansarallah group for their great job for the Muslim hummah.

u sure black stone no go collect. which direction will u now face if black stone is destroyed

MrPresident1:
Whenever you are ready

1st what is atonement of sin.

Atonement doesn't simply mean forgiveness of sin
God doesn't need blood sacrifice to accept your repentance just like I don't need blood sacrifice to accept your apology if u offend me and u turn around to repent.

But spiritual sin goes beyond that. Sin is a permanent separation from God. Once u are stained with sin, u are permanently banned from the sight of God. U can never come back.

Have u ever asked yourself. Will God accept Satan's forgiveness if he truly repents and ask for forgiveness. Can God forgive Satan even if he repents and ask God for forgiveness? Can God restore Satan back to heaven and his former glory if he repents and ask God for forgiveness

I want to know your response b4 I continue with what exactly is atonement of sin

sonmvayina:
Messiah ben Joseph (also called Mashiach ben Yosef or Mashiach ben Ephraim) is an apocalyptic and eschatological figure in Jewish tradition who serves as a preparatory, suffering forerunner before the ultimate reign of the royal Messiah ben Yosef: Joseph as a Type of Messiah. -the-messiah-ben-yosef-and-josep

Primary Roles and Tasks.
According to rabbinic literature, midrashim, and commentaries (such as the Talmud in Sukkah 52a-b), Messiah ben Joseph has several key functions:Gathering the Exiles: He is expected to help lead and unite the dispersed people of Israel, including the lost tribes.
Waging End-Time Wars: He acts as a military and spiritual leader, fighting against the forces of evil and the ultimate enemies of Israel (such as Armilus).
who-is-moshiach-ben-joseph-and-what-does-did-he-do)

Preparing the Way: He paves the practical and spiritual groundwork for the ultimate redemption era.
)Suffering and Martyrdom: A central aspect of the tradition is that he will ultimately be slain or die in combat (often described as pierced at the gates of Jerusalem) during the conflicts preceding the final redemption, plunging Israel into a period of deep spiritual and physical trial.

Do u know any verse that talks about this messiah Ben Yousef in the old testament?

DeepSight:
See here ---->>>

Have u actually read the gospel and concluded Jesus gives preferential treatment to Jews?!!!!

because that goes contrary to his teaching. I will advise u to read the story of the good Samaritan and then we come back and discuss

QuinQQ:
I can't believe I'm having this discussion. That guy could be a great warrior for Christ. Appearance does not equate morality.
The most decently dressed person could be morally a devil.
These guys below look very holy until you read the caption!

pinky swear if that guy approach u to preach christ u wont pick race.

So Paul and Peter who admonished moderation in outward appearance weren't making sense abi
God will help our Genz Christians.

QuinQQ:
Another obtuse genius. Those photos you posted are indecent but not immoral. See one below.

To you too:
Nevermind. Nice chatting with you.
(Some people are simply too stubbornly obtuse for some types of discussions)

Do u think the guy is moral but indecent??

QuinQ:
I'm amazed you honestly can't see how ignorant this sounds. Soo, on what basis is an atheist covering his private parts? Or not having sex in public? Or not sticking his finger in his nose. So it is religion that precipitates all that?
And you still can't tell the difference between what is indecent and what is immoral. See a list of each below. You likely still won't get it. Some people are simply dull by nature.

Girl, If a behaviour is indecent, then it's immoral to do so!!!!
Otherwise morality becomes subjective.
What's so hard u don't get
U don't need chatgpt sourced from social media to tell u that.

just forget it. if u think dressing in a swim suit to work is not an immoral behaviour, I think u are far confused and too dull to grasp anything.

see what liberal secularism has turned u into. ask your pastor if dressing in swim suit to work is not an immoral behaviour provided your work colleagues dont tie u down and send u to a psychiatric home.

What I see here is a Christian woman who has based her moral fibre on liberal secular laws.

QuinQ:
I'm amazed you honestly can't see how ignorant this sounds. Soo, on what basis is an atheist covering his private parts? Or not having sex in public? Or not sticking his finger in his nose. So it is religion that precipitates all that?
And you still can't tell the difference between what is indecent and what is immoral. See a list of each below. You likely still won't get it. Some people are simply dull by nature.

And answer my question why would some people consider exposing head and ankle an immoral behaviour that deserve punishment?
Why

triplechoice:
Just go away. You've been projectimg from start to finish and you're never going to make sense. I was the one who informed you Buddhism has no creator God who gives commands. So how can the *ignorance be on me " If you had known this from the beginning, you wouldn't have cited Buddhism as proof that morality comes from religion. Now you're scrambling and pretending you knew all along.

You've now agreed with me anyway. You said Buddhism is a religion whose followers derive morality from its religious ethics, not from a creator God's commands. That's my entire point. Morality can also come from outside a creator God. You conceded it and called it my ignorance .

The strange thing is that you, a Christian , now finds Buddhism a valid religion all because you needed it to score a point.

As for the rest you didn't answer my question. I asked what evidence you have that God gave those moral codes apart from belief. . Your deflection to Europe, Onlyfans, to Buddhism and now to a "bye" is not a win, but you running away , leaving the tracks behind..

And here's the thing you're leaving behind as you run . You said I was "indoctrinated with Christianised values" , meaning you think I have moral values, and that I got them from culture and upbringing, not from God. That's exactly what I told you from the beginning. You just prove my case while trying to insult me.

Modified. Atheism is simply the rejection of God or gods, not the rejection of everything religion. Don't confuse the two. Many atheist/agnostics still model parts of their lives on religious moral teaching because they recognise the wisdom in it. Richard Dawkings one of the world's most famous atheists called himself a "cultural Christian" He rejected God, but didn't reject the moral tradition. What he rejected is the claim that God is the source of it, or that you need God in order to follow it. Elon Musk has also spoken positively about the teachings of Jesus.

So are u a cultural Christian?

QuinQ:
Oga, stop arguing nonsense just to be arguing. I gave u example. A woman breastfeeding her child in public is NEVER immoral, but it can be indecent depending on the society. So also, eating in public, kissing in.public, not wearing a shirt, etc.
Quit the childish argument!

😅😂🤣🤣😂😅😅😂

U just help proved my point. Morality is relative if left to societal norms and expectation, because what is considered immoral in a society may be perfectly normal in another.

If a mother lives in a society where it's frowned upon to breastfeed in public with your breast showing, then it's immoral to do so. U are expected to cover up when breastfeeding in public or look for a private place.
The immoral act is not breastfeeding the baby but doing so publicly.

Same if a man lives in a society where it's considered wrong to walk around shirtless, doing so will.be considered immoral. Same with public kissing, u will be exhibiting an indecent behaviour in public. The immoral act is not display of affection but doing so in public.

That's why we need absolute morality to avoid conflict of societal interest.
What u have wrongly done is conflate your Christian view of morality with values derived from secular liberalism and that has left u confused.

As a Christian lady, it's ok for u to walk around without covering your head or your ankle. Try that in some parts of middle east or northern Nigeria, they will spit at u and call u shameless.
That doesn't mean u are immoral or indecent because u have your own definite source of morality.
It simply shows their source of morality is different from yours simple. U don't have to agree with them, u may only comply for safety reasons.

Now if an atheist who doesn't cover her head visit the area, on what ground will she disagree with them and say they are wrong and she is right. What is the source of her morality to beleive not covering head is perfectly moral.

Same for a atheist man who loves to walk around shirtless. If he travels to a society and he's forced to cover up in public. On what ground will he say they are wrong and being shirtless is not necessarily immoral.
What is the source of that morality.

That's the question I'm asking that no atheist or their sympathisers can't answer.

What a pity.

Your argument and example u bring only solidify my argument. Morality is relative unless there's an alternative reality that determines absolute morality otherwise morality itself will make no sense leading to anarchy and lawlessness.

triplechoice:
I never said Buddhism has nothing to do with the transcendent nor did I call it mere philosophy. I said it has no creator God who gave commands. That's correct. And you just admitted it yourself "only the uncreated God is denied" . That's my entire point. A moral system without a creator God.

Yes, Buddhism has deities in its cosmology, but none of then are the uncreated God who hands down commands like Yahweh. Morality in Buddhism, comes from karma, compassion, reasoning the Eightfold Path, not divine commands. So my points stands. You're the one who has displayed ignorance here.



Europe falling apart is emotional appeal. You're trying to scare and confuse your followers, not me, with images of a collapsing Europe instead of answering the questions I asked. It's a deflection. It doesn't prove your claim that morality can only come from God or religion

I haven't denied Europe has problems. I said deal with your own country's problems first and leave those who have systems in place to deal with theirs.

And you continue to ignore Sweden and Denmark, European countries, that have high moral standards of living and low crime without your God.


I have answered the question you asked about your daughter doing Onlyfans and bringing shame and embarrassment to you and your entire family members. Don't pretend you didn't read it.

Mr Man, Buddhism is a religion. pure and simple. and people who follow it derive their morality from the religious ethics of Buddhism.
not all religion has a supreme deity, that ignorance is on u.

and no u didnt answer my question. u only said your daughter will bring u shame if she becomes an onlyfan model.
How? why? that's what I'm interested in.
guy we all know why, let's not pretend to ourselves.
u have been indoctrinated with christianised values and morals, and your definition of decency shaped by it.
having a daughter sell her body for money is immoral and a big shame in the values u grew up within. And that's why u will protest if your daughter chose to become onlyfan model.
otherwise, I see no reason to object to it.
bye

QuinQ:
I knew it would be too much for you and you'd go off on a tangent.
So I've whittled it down to something you can manage. Read it below

I brought my own definition from english dictionary, an academic scholarly reference book

chatgpt is giving her definition from facebook social media

At this stage, I sincerely give up.

QuinQ:
Genius, read the below, assuming you have the capacity to comprehend it!

🤣😂😅
Did u even understand what AI responded to u. It's telling u decency is a subcatergory set of morality. Decency is a reflection of your morality.

I can't believe in 2026 u need chatgpt to tell u this.

Ok, let's settle it.

Since u claim to be a Christian, let me ask u

Is it possible to have bad moral but be decent and make heaven?

Can an indecent person with good morals make heaven?
Is it even possible to have good morals and be indecent in the first place!!!!!
Very weird take....

God will help all these our genZ Christians. This is beyond embarrassing

QuinQ:
Sorry, you folks are simply too mixed up for me. Religion can truly mess people up. This is why Nigeria is about the most corrupt country you’ll see despite having a church at every corner and countless mosques.
One is stuck on "empathy" not being source of morality without defining empathy
The other is so mixed up by JW that he actually can't reason straight anymore but doesn't realize it.
The other is so mixed up he doesn't see the absurdity of comparing his extremely religious but extremely corrupt country to a country where things actually work and 99% of his people would do anything to move there!

READ THE SCREENSHOTS BELOW!
There is basic human sense of decency that is totally independent of religion. That is why human beings don't have sex in the open like other fellow animals. That is why human beings cover their private parts unlike other animals. None of that has anything to do with religion.
I think you folks are confusing decency with morality. People's sense of decency vary and may or may NOT be due to religion. One person may be extremely repulsed by someone sticking their finger in their nose in public, while another won't mind at all. In some Western countries a woman breastfeeding in public is considered very indecent and banned by law, but we totally see nothing wrong with it in Nigeria. None of that has anything to do with religion but with the person's or society's developed sense of decency!

So wether a parent accepts a good but half naked man for his daughter depends on the parent's developed sense of decency and that sense of decency may be due to religion and also may NOT be due to religion at all!

**In China members of CCP are bared from holding religious beliefs or belonging to any religion, EVEN PRIVATELY. Everybody of note or of any influence is a member of the CCP. It has 107 million members

😅😂🤣😂🤣😅

Seriously this is becoming very embarrassing
So u are now saying there's a difference btw morality and decency.
Are u saying someone can be a decent person but equally immoral as a person? Is that what u saying ? 🤣😂
Or I can have good morals but be indecent as a person😂😅

This is what happens when Christians dwells amongst swines. Something Christ warned against.
Now see u becoming confusing and conflating terms in a desperate attempt to justify liberal secularism.

Your pastor must not see this, he will be very disappointed in u.

Truly this is very embarrasing.

Since u love screen shot so much, let me use your own beloved tool to show the similarity btw morality and decency.

triplechoice:
Yes, Japan practice Buddism, but the religion is non-theistic. It rejects the idea of a creator God who Issues commandments, judges or punishes. Its moral framework is based on karma, compassion and human experience , not divine command. . The Buddha himself taught that believing in gods or God is not useful for those seeking enlightenment.

So, if you accept Buddism as valid, you have admitted morality can exist without your God.. If you reject the religion as demonic then you can't use it to support your argument. Either way you're contradicting yourself and that is the hypocrisy you keep accusing me of

.

pls go and read about buddhism b4 exposing your ignorance. budhism teaches humans thru enlightement can attain ultimate transcendental reality. That's a supernatural statement

Yes, Buddhism is a religion. It is not a mere philosophy. It has gods, demons, deities, spirits, ghosts, heaven, hell, rituals, liturgy, worship, prayers, practices, eschatology, soteriology, sacred texts, monastics, etc. Yes, Buddhists believe in gods, many gods. Only the uncreated Creator God is denied.

triplechoice:
I'd advise you to concern yourself with your country first. You're worried about Europe while ignoring Nigeria, a country with a large Christian and Muslim population that is nonetheless one of the most dangerous places to live in the world. The problem you see in Europe is far worse in your country.

Mental health crises are worse in Nigeria than in those countries, but you don't know because Nigerians hardly prioritise mental health. Your youths are consuming cocktails of mind-destroying drugs, while your government has no plan to deal with the problem. Yet you're concerned about Europe, where systems are in place to deal with their own Issues.

Still waiting for your answer to the question I asked: Apart from belief, what evidence do you have Yahweh gave the Torah?

europe is sinking my friend, u are only decieving yourself by denying it. The beginning of the end came for europe when they rejected christianity and embrace liberal secularism as their source of morality

triplechoice:
You have a limited understanding of harm. It isn't only physical, psychological harm is real. It doesn't just impact one's mental health, it can affect the individual's overall well-being . If your daughter does something that brings shame and distress to your family she's harming you whether she realises it or not. She's an extension of yourself; her actions affect everyone around her. No family with a name to protect would feel at ease if their daughter got involved in Onlyfans, and the pressure is usually immense on the person involved, guilt and rejection affect her mental health. Some Onlyfans models have spoken about regretting the embarrassment they cause their families. They are aware of the effect of their actions on others.

So, when you say you see no harm in it, I have to wonder if you're arguing from principle or from something else?. You seem very invested in defending a position that, by your own moral framework, you should be condemning

Guy u are not answering my question. why is your daughter doing onlyfan bringing shame to u!!!!
that's my question u have refused to answer. Why are u embarrased by ur daughter selling her body online!!!!!
There are so many onlyfans model that have good relationship with their parents.
Read sophie Rain the onlyfan celebrity star, she earn 40 million dollars per year and her mum fully supports her business.
Courtney Clenney, that onlyfans girl that killed her Nigerian boyfriend has good relationship with her parents who both supported her during her trial and ordeal.
what the heck are u talking about!!!!
stop judging the world with your heavily influenced christianised morality. what u consider shame is perfectly normal for millions who derive their morality from liberal secularism

and FYI- lots of jobs cause mental stress. infact underemployment is the biggest trigger for job related depression in the world, and not onlyfans.

triplechoice:
No.I haven't displayed any hypocrisy. You don't seem to know what the word means. Hypocrisy is claiming one standard and living by another one. I haven't condemned morality while practicing it. I have never said people shouldn't be moral. I have maintained that morality comes from empathy, social instincts, reasoning, culture and human experience . I live by that. There's no contradiction.

And no, I'm not "arguing questions never asked". I'm asking you to justify your claim about the source of morality. That's directly to the point. That's not whataboutism . I told you the source of my morality. You don't just like the answer, so you ignored it and moved on to personal hypotheticals.

This is the point you're not listening to yourself. You're mocking me for having moral standards based on empathy and social instincts, while demanding that I must have moral standards.

If you're struggling to understand it, empathy means I care about my daughter's well-being. Social instincts mean I want to protect those close to me. That's exactly why I would speak up if I thought she was making a harmful choice. A person who doesn't care what happens to their child isn't more moral, they're less moral..

I'm not pretending to be something I'm not. I don't subscribe to your God. I still try to live a decent live. That's not fake, that's just a human being with a different world view than yours.. You seem to think secular morality means anything goes.. It doesn't. Secular morality says, consider harm, consider well -being, consider fairness, consider what kind of society we want. Those are real standards. And they can absolutely lead me to say, "I don't want this for my daughter"

Now that I've answered the question you assumed I was ruining away from, I hope you'Ii return the favour by answering mine.

What evidence do you have, apart from belief that Yahweh gave those moral codes?


You're conflating two different things. I can acknowledge that religion has done good things, built hospitals, schools, charities and promoted social order , without believing in irs gods. I don't have to believe a tree was planted by a god before I can appreciate its fruit.. I don't also have to believe in Yahweh to appreciate the good parts of Christian moral teaching.


Religion is not the only source of morality. Secular societies like Sweden, Denmark, and Japan have some of the highest standards of living, lowest crime rates and strongest social trust in the world. If religion were the only source of morality those societies should be failing apart. But they're not

What is the harm in your daughter becoming an only fans model. What harm is she doing to herself, you or the society by choosing to become an only fan model.
That's the crux of my question. Mention the harm your daughter is exposed to by becoming an only fan.
And what makes u consider that harm immoral?
What is the source of that morality?

Japan is a religious country, they practice Buddhism
Europe is falling apart in our very eyes. They can't even get immigration laws right.
Since Europe embrace liberal secularism as their source of morality, it's just becoming a mess of a place very passing year. Crime is rising, social order is collapsing, lawlessness is becoming rampant, poverty is rising, mental health crisis is now an excuse to go on disability and claim benefit .

It's just a matter of time it becomes the a good example for dystopia.

Liberal secularism and rise of immoral behaviour will be the nail in the coffin of western nations. A nation that reject God and his values cannot thrive or last. It will eventually collapse.

Believing anyone can be whatever he or she desires so long as no one is harmed is just a step away from lawlessness.

In the UK, u can enter a store, pick items from the shelves and walk away without paying for them. And it's a crime for someone to stop u or assaults u in the process. U can actually call the police and report the person who assaulted u while trying to steal!!!!

Atheism is evil and not fit for any rational society. Society needs order and structure to thrive and this comes from an absolute morality that everyone is subjected.

QuinQ:
Now I KNOW I'm dealing with a #@%!
If you do any of those things you mentioned in an atheistic society that has never heard of religion they'll run you out of their land!

Once again, I AM A DEVOUT CHRISTIAN!!! But NOT.a hypocrite like some people!

😂🤣😂😅🤣😂😅

So u were so appalled by the immoral examples I gave here that u quickly remember u are a Christian and started confessing the faith lest u become lost in your own thoughtless and confused arguments.

Imagine a child of God defending atheism morality derived from liberal secularism.

FYI, every example I gave here is perfectly legal and moral in many western countries.

Corn industry and recruiting women for such acts is very legal in California.
There are numerous nude beaches in Spain, France, Croatia etc
Denmark and Dutch celebrate nude bike day when u can ride a bicycle completely naked for the whole day.

Some universities in America celebrate return to school by jumping into cold lakes naked, this is perfectly legal.
In Canada, a 14 yr old do not even need parents permission to start taking puberty blockers.
And u can be jailed in America if u refuse to render service for homosexual couples because u feel the union is immoral.

These are societies that have rejected God and his values, then embrace liberal secularism as the tenet of their morality.

And that's why we say atheism breeds immoral and bankrupt generation not fit to sustain or maintain a society.

QuinQQ:
Since you have decided to go completely puerile let's go!
Before I answer, do you think it is because of religion that people cover their private parts?

U see what I'm talking about! They never answer questions. always going about whataboutism, now its time to define what is nudity.

very rich coming from group of people who thinks having nude beaches is a form of personal choice and non sexual social acceptance.

My next question.

If I open a corn adult movie studio in your community and start recruiting your grown up daughters as actresses. Am I being immoral?

If the community decide to chase me out of their town because I'm corrupting their daughters and encouraging immoral behaviour, will u agree with them? Even though I have not forced or coerced anyone to work for me and none of the girls complained of abuse or exploitation.

In what way am I corrupting the society with my business. What is the source of that morality that makes u conclude that red light business is wrong.

I want to know the source of that morality.

triplechoice:
I'm not obligated to answer personal hypotheticals about my children. They're irrelevant to the actual question, which is , what is the source of morality?

But look at what your questions assume: that if I don't condemn these things, I've proven your point. That's not true. My morality isn't a checklist of things your God forbids. It's based on empathy, reason, social instincts and human being. I can evaluate each case on those grounds without needing a divine command.

More importantly, your questions are a distraction. You haven't answered the question I asked you: what evidence do you have that Yahweh actually gave the Torah, apart from the belief that he did?

Until you answer that, you're the one dodging. Your position rests on faith, not evidence. That's ok if you admit it. But you can't demand I justify my morality while refusing to justify your claim.

You see, they never answer questions. when their hypocrisy is shoved up their face. They start their whataboutism and start arguing questions never asked them.

I thought triplechoice morality comes from human instinct and empathy, so why should he protest his daughter becoming onlyfans model or working as a adult movie star in corn industry.
Awon oniro, fake people everywhere.

As we can see, atheists benefit from a moral society structured on religious moral framework. They love the morals the religion brings, the good upbringing the religion gives to children and the social order the religion teach. THEY ALL LOVE IT EVEN THOUGH THEY DENY IT.

But yet will open their mouth and condemn the WONDERFUL SUPREME GOD that gave humanity such beautiful morals.
If this is not hypocrisy, I don't know what else to call it.

QuinQQ:
I hope you haven't finally lost it. What has this to do with the discussion??

Everything!!!! otherwise I will conclude u know nothing about morality. Morality has everything to do with public behaviour, conduct and appearance.

Now answer my question.

If your daughter brings any of these guys as her future husband, will u approve? The guy is hard-working, runs a good business, treats your daughter like a queen, respects her and also empowers her. They both love each other genuinely and its quite obvious.

Will u encourage your daughter to marry him?

If the answer is no, on what basis. What is the source of such objection

Now let's see doublespeak in action.

QuinQQ:
Well, you're entitled to your opinion but NOT to your own facts. See below

U are becoming annoying. Now let me expose your hypocrisy.

If your daughter bring any of these guys as her future husband, will u approve? The guy is hard-working, runs a good business, treats your daughter like a queen, respects her and also empowers her.

Will u encourage your daughter to marry him?

If the answer is no, on what basis. What is the source of such objection

Now let's see doublespeak in action.

triplechoice:
You say you're not here to debate evidence for religion . Good. Then admit that your claim, "morality comes from God" , is a statement of faith, not something you can prove.

I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic/irreligious I don't really use labels. I simply agreed with QuinnQQ that morality comes from empathy, social instincts reasoning, culture and shared human experience. That's the source of my morality. You haven't addressed that. You just repeated that Jews believe their morality comes from the ten commandments.

I don't dispute what Jews believe. I reject the claim that their belief proves God gave it.

My morality is grounded in human well-being , empathy, reason, and social cooperation. Yours is grounded in religious belief. You're at liberty to hold yours. But you can't claim it's the only source and you can't demand I adopt it without evidence. Period.

Good, then use your highlighted PRINCIPLES to determine if below acts are moral or not.

1. If your 16-year-old daughter starts taking contraceptive pills so she can have sex with her boyfriend, would you frown at it? On what grounds would you consider her behaviour immoral?

2. If your 21-year-old son tells you he is gay and wants to marry his partner, will you wish them marital bliss or attend their wedding if invited? If you object to such a union, where is that morality coming from?

3. If your 18-year-old son tells you he is transitioning to become a woman and plans to undergo surgery, on what grounds would you tell him he is wrong?

4. Why would it be wrong if your 25-year-old daughter tells you she does not plan to get married but intends to have children with different men and raise them without a father figure?

Now apply those your principles to determine the morality of the cases above- pls do not go outside because u clearly stated your morality is based on the said objectives- empathy, social instinct, human experience, and culture

So explain to me why u would object to the above if u are living in a society where above cases are perfectly legal and acceptable by the society.

triplechoice:
You didn't directly answer QuinnQQ's point. He said empathy, social instincts, reasoning and culture are the sources of morality. I agree.

Instead of responding to that, you posted a list of written codes But written codes aren't the same as moral capacity or moral knowledge. Even the Christian Bible says Gentiles without the law have the law "written on their hearts" (Romans 2 :14-15)

The list you provided doesn't prove all morality comes from God or the gods. It only shows what ancient people believed, or were made to believe about the source of their moral codes. You haven't provided evidence that any god actually gave them.

And since you included Yahweh in the same list, by your own standard, that's just another belief too.

So I ask, What evidence do you have that Yahweh actually gave the Torah, apart from the belief that he did.?

I'm not here to debate evidence for religion. That's what u guys do all the time. Deflect and refuse to answer question.

Whether Moses and YHWH exist is not the argument here. Jews believe the source of their morality is derived from the 10 commandment- a religious text. Simple.

Atheist will say there's no God. Fine. Then tell us what is the source of your own morality independent of a God.

Why would u disagree if your 23 yr old daughter decides she wants to build a career in adult movie industry and become a 'corn' star or only fan model.

Why would u consider such act immoral.

That'sy question atheist have failed to answer in previous thread and that have started their whataboutism again.

Pls unless u give a direct answer to my simple question I will not deem u a response.
I'm done with argument already. Answer or STAY SILENT AND ALLOW THE SILENCE BECOME LOUDER.

QuinQQ:
This is one of the most ignorant posts I've read on Nairaland. Was it religion that made a father take care of his family, or a mother tske care of children? Was it religion that prevented people using other people as protein? Was it religion that made people form friendships and look out for each other?
China is officially an atheist state. Why don't they all kill each other because of no religion?

This will be last post to u because it's obvious u punching far above your level on this matter.
Imagine comparing morality to responsibility. Even a wicked father who is a murderer takes care of their offspring.
Most serial killers have families that they love to death and will never harm. Their families are mostly shocked when a serial killers is arrested and exposed as a murderer. They always say he was a loving father and husband.

China just became atheist less than 60 yrs ago. For thousands of years they have a moral code built within Confucianism moral code which they beleive is divine, and that's what they still use today. Modern day chinese moral framework is built around Confucius religious teaching even if they don't follow the theology.
My friend go.and read and stop embarassing yourself in public.
Note if I don't reply u again, it's because your post was riddled with if ignorance; there's a limit to what I can take of ignorance.

QuinQQ:
I sm a Christian but I think this is a rather poor angle from which to attack atheism. Is religion the source of human empathy, evolutionary social instincts, reasoning, and shared cultural agreements??
Humans are social animals. Compassion and a basic instinct to avoid causing pain are natural traits that help groups survive and cooperate.
Communities create rules snd social contracts —such as laws against theft or harm—because life works better when people agree to respect each other. Personal values also come from culture, upbringing, family, education, history, and the surrounding society, which have evolved long before and alongside organized religion!

If u dont know the history of religion, I will advise u educate yourself and cure your ignorance. organised religion were well established thousands of years b4 the Abrahamic religion and there were well known moral codes governing those societies b4 God gave Moses the torah.
There is no known moral code that exist outside of a religious framework- none. all morality are shaped by religious belief system- be it ancient or modern

Below are ancient moral codes that existed even before God gave Moses the 10 commandment. All of them governed ancient civilizations and were based off beliefs in gods and attributed to them.


1. Ma’at moral code, c. 3100–300 BCE. Ancient Egypt; attributed to Ma’at, goddess of truth, justice, and cosmic order.

2. The Code of Ur-Nammu, c. 2100–2050 BCE. Sumer, Mesopotamia; attributed to Nanna/Sin, the moon god, patron deity of Ur.

3. Code of Hammurabi (first legal code known to mankind) c. 1754 BCE. Babylon, Mesopotamia; attributed to Shamash, god of justice and the sun, who gave the laws to King Hammurabi.

4. Hittite Laws, c. 1650–1500 BCE. Hittite Empire, Anatolia; attributed to The Storm God, Teshub, and the Hittite divine order

5. The 10 commandment Mosaic Law / Torah traditionally c. 1300–1200 BCE; attributed to Yahweh, who is described as giving the laws to Moses

6. Avesta / Zoroastrian moral law, teachings traditionally c. 1200–600 BCE; texts compiled later Ancient Persia/Iran; attributed to Ahura Mazda, supreme God of truth and wisdom

I REPEAT, THERE IS NO MORAL VALUES DEVELOPED INDEPENDENTLY OF RELIGIOUS BELIEF SYSTEM ANYWHERE. PEOPLE IN ANCIENT TIMES BELIEVED THE gods GAVE THEM THOSE MORAL CODES AS A WAY TO WORSHIP AND PLEASE THEM. THERE IS NO ANCIENT CIVILISATION THAT DEVELOPED ITS MORALITY OUTSIDE A RELIGIOUS FRAMEWORK- NONE

anybody arguing against this is simply ignorant.

Previously I asked atheists in the house a simple question: What is the source of your morality? I was curious to know what guides the conscience of atheists who reject all forms of religion.

https://www.nairaland.com/8660736/atheists-house-whats-source-morality

My question was not whether Christian morality is the best, nor whether the God of the Bible is the best. I simply wanted to know: if you reject God and religion altogether, what is the source of your moral convictions?

As usual, the discussion turned into an argument about the morality of the God of the Bible, you then begin to wonder if these atheists went to live in non Christian nations like India, Japan, Saudi Arabia, or somewhere else, they would still be atheists. Atheism means not believing in God; it does not mean merely rejecting the God of the Bible.

I asked about issues such as premarital sex involving teenagers, gender transition as a child, and homosexual unions. Most agreed these acts were immoral, but when I asked why, I did not receive a convincing answer. They simply wasted time attacking the Bible. Many argued you don't need religion to be moral. Fine—but if you don't need religion to be moral, then explain why certain things are immoral.

Some appealed to traditional values. But traditional values themselves come from somewhere. As Africans, for example, we have our own traditional and conservative values, and these have historically been connected to our religious beliefs, whether traditional or conventional.

Some appealed to ancient civilizations, but all ancient civilizations they mentioned—Mesopotamia, ancient Egypt, and others—were themselves deeply religious societies. Their moral systems were tied to their religious beliefs. People believed that certain behavior would please their gods and that other behavior would anger them and bring punishment.

Another thing I found interesting is that atheists in different societies can have very different moral positions. Many atheists in the Western world have no problem with homosexual unions, premarital sex among teenagers, or gender transition, but surprisingly atheist raised in conservative background will consider same thing as immoral. So how can two groups of atheists arrive at such different moral conclusions? none of them could give me a reasonable response.

My conclusion is that people are often shaped by the society in which they are raised. Someone can reject religion while continuing to benefit from a value system that was historically shaped by religious beliefs. They may no longer believe in the God who helped form that moral culture, but they consider the values produced by that culture and their deity useful for character building.

That is the point I was trying to make: some atheists benefit from a moral framework created or heavily influenced by religious people and religious traditions, while rejecting the religious foundation from which those values came.

If this is not hypocrisy, I don't know what else to call it.

Finally, my advice to wannable atheists—especially to those living in the Western world—is not to make the mistake of raising your children without a strong moral and religious framework. You may think you are simply allowing your child to choose freely, but your child will eventually grow up in a society with very different moral values and may come to you with choices about sexuality, relationships, or gender that you yourself may not agree with.

A word is enough for the wise, don't say SirTee didn't warn you.