₦airaland Forum

@TayoD,

TayoD:
@Stimulus,

You get patience o!!!

My bros, wetin I for do?

It's cases like this that should make readers understand the antics of discussants who make unsubstantiated assertions in a desperate bid to maintain their default heresies.

Have you noticed that all through his several rejoinders, he maintains that God only "permits" human rulership; while it is the devil that GIVES rulership to whomsoever he wills. I'm yet to read him say the same thing about the devil "permitting" human rulership, and he strenuously ascribes that passive role of "ALLOWING" or "PERMITTING" to God.

Making such assertions without a verse for his claims only tells me that such reasoning is hell-bent on glorifying the devil, than ascribing to God the glory due unto Him. After more than 35 replies which he posted following my initial enquiry, sage has not been able to provide a direct text to my simple question, nevermind his continued circumvention to repeated request that he addresses it.

If he is not going to be gentlemanly enough to preserve what is left of his already waning scholarship, we should just leave him to his fallacies. So, just once more:

Abeg, sage, Where is the verse that says the devil "GIVES, ESTABLISHES, INSTITUTES, ORDAINS, APPOINTS, SETS UP, or PUTS IN PLACE" any human rulership to whomsoever he wishes, as exactly as God claims for Himself in such texts as Dan. 4:32; Jer. 27:5; and Rom. 13:1??

If you CANNOT find that verse, is it too much to say so and rest the case, bros??

@sage,

sage:
And take the question ive been asking out of the way so we can now get to discussing the Fact that Satan does give rulership to Man.

Wey the verse now??

I didn't realize that you're such a comedian. Your mischievious rantings have been addressed time and again. If you're not going to address the simple question I offered you (after severally dodging and circumventing it), then point made: you have no verse for your fallacies as to the devil GIVING rulership to whomsoever he wishes.

WHERE in the Bible is it written that the devil has EVER [B]GIVEN[/B] (i.e., "established, put in place, ordained, appointed, instituted" HUMAN RULERSHIP?

If you can't understand that statement as simple as it is, then please sage give me a verse that shows where the devil does or has EVER done exactly what God ALONE is declared in Scripture to do, as we find in the following:

Daniel 4:32 - "the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will."

Jeremiah 27:5 - "I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto Me."

Read the Bible - The Word of God.

John 1:1 & 8:24.

Echidime:
JESUS CHRIST WAS A GURU

The spiritual leader of the Hare krishna Movement here recognizes Lord Jesus Christ as " the son of God,the representative of God, our Guru, our Spiritual Master,"yet he has some sharp words for those who currently claim to be Christ's followers,

A vaisnava is unhappy to see the suffering of others.Therefore, Lord Jesus Christ agreed to be crucified--to free others from their suffering. But his followers are so unfaithful that they have decided,"Let Christ suffer for us,and we'll go on committing sin". They love Christ so much that they think "My dear Christ, we are very weak?We cannot give up our sinful activities? so you please suffer for us."

Jesus Christ thought,"Thou shalt not kill" But his followers have now decided,Let us kill anyway;and they have open big,modern,scientific slaughterhouses.If there is any sin, Christ will suffer for us.This is a most abominable conclusion.

A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA.
Founder Hare Krishna Movement.

This is how deceit begins. Jesus Christ the Son of God stated:

John 10:14 & 27 - "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."

A true Christian does not follow the bogus lies of A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA.

@babs787,

After all that theory, did Muhammad know what Allah would to to HIM after death? Was he sure of his own salvation and that of the many Muslims who followed his religion?

@babs787,

babs787:
I couldn't help laughing out loud on reading that line, because it seemed so naturally applicable to you. Most of the verses you tried to twist will never make sense to you that are inclined to falsehood and are not ready to verify what you have been carrying and preaching all these while. Indeed, we don't want your case to be like that of Hosea 4 v 6.

Na wa o. Truth will always be bitter. I haver verified while in the darkness and am telling you now that there is no salvation for you unless you are a muslim

If you want to know that salvation in Islam is NOT guaranteed, then I'll be willing to help you see that in many instances. Muhammad did NOT know exactly what would be the fate of Muslims - and there are references for that, which makes one wonder about the weak position of the so-called salvation you're here posing up for.

babs787:
All the verses you quoted above, particularly Isaiah 9:6.

Let me have your own interpretation of Isaiah 9 v 6.

I have discussed this in several instances; and you may follow some of them on this thread: Jesus: The Son Of God, Or God?

Bottomline is that Isaiah 9:6 clearly points to the Messiah, and declares in that verse that He is God.

babs787:
Please keep reading the Bible, and then you will see that all your accusations and vexations are quite suited to the Qur'an itself.

Can we compare the chapters, verses, stories etc in the two books?

We've done that several times, and my statement stands as is.

babs787:
Even if you use the Qur'an, your argument will run into a brick wall; because the Qur'an does not tell you what it does not know - and to that point excatly, neither Muhammad nor the Qur'an knew anything about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Why arguing what you failed in defending. your bible never supported the crucifixion and there is nowhere in the OT crucifixion was mentioned.

Oh yes, the Bible speaks several times of the crucifixion - Psalm 22:16; Zach. 12:10; Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:33; John 19:37; 20:25-29. So, which Bible have you been reading to have made your denial of "your bible never supported crucifixion?"

babs787:
Na today? Several times I have supplied the weblink from which you lift your "questions". The only difference is that you dressed them up a little and called them your own.

Thats your belief and you are entitled to your opinion. So the links have been providing me with all the verses.

Yep, you've always dressed the articles on those links, rank-xeroxed the verses, and then pretend them as you own - which is worse than plagiarism.

@babs787,

babs787:
where is the book of Nathan the Prophet?
- - -
Where is the prophecy of Ahijah and Shilonite and the visions of Iddo the Seer?
- - -
Where is the Book of Shemaiah, the prophet?
- - -
Where is the Book of Jehu?
- - -
Where is the Acts of Uzziah?

Let me stop here

IS THE QURAN WRONG IN STATING THAT THE TORAH WAS LOST OR CORRUPTED?

The Qur'an was WRONG in its allegations against the Bible. If you can't take it, then please provide the original TORAH, INJIL and PSALMS that the Qur'an boasted about that no Muslim (including Muhammad) has ever set eyes on.

Even then, if the Bible is not complete because the books of Jehu and Gad, etc. are not in it; is the Qur'an complete when it does not have the TORAH, INJIL or PSALMS? The Allah of the Qur'an claimed to have sent down, revealed, and confirmed those books - WHERE ARE THEY? And if they are not in the Qur'an, does that make it any better than the Bible for not including the books of Jehu, Gad, etc.?

Until you provide the same books that the Qur'an boasts that Allah sent down, no one is to take Muhammad's tales seriously. The Qur'an is hugely deficient for making such a claim and yet NOT including those books in the same Qur'an you read.

@babs787, WHERE ARE THE TORAH, INJIL AND PSALMS IN THE QURAN??

@babs787,

babs787:
@pilgrims


I thought I have answered you. Allah did not say his name is 100 or 1000. If you are trying to view it as contradiction, no way sister because Allah never gives 100 or 1001 names as His.

But if I have not answered your question, let me have it.

While you're waiting for pilgrim.1, it seems then that either:

(a) Muhammad was wrong to have declared that Allah has 99 names; or

(b) Muslims believe in the contradictions that exist in the list they have drawn up; or

(c) Muslims have no idea what is the real issue about the so-called 99 names of Allah; or

(d) you are playing cosmetic games with all the above.

@sage,

sage:
And guy, that same question that uve been bogously repeating like it was some insurance againt what God has promised to happen, After i show you that the Devil Can give Rulership, You will have to go back and address all the many points that i have raised from the bible that clearly shows human rulership is not for true Christians and the harlotry of Christiandom (your so called Christianity)

No wahala. If Romans 13 tells you that God was setting up harlotry for Christians to obey, then come back and receive some grown-up lessons.

sage:
Christiandoms rotten works have found her out but thats to come later. We have to finish your own argument since u keep repeating that there is no authority except from God

Oh yes, my guy. The verses haven't changed one bit even if you bite your finger a hundred times wishing that it was otherwise.

sage:
ANSWER THE QUESTION IN THE LAST POSTS GUY

Done.

sage:
And whatever you answer, you have to indicate WHAT YOU MEAN BY ACTIVELY GRANTING?. DO YOU IN ANYWAY MEAN BY THAT THAT GOD APPROVES OF IT, ENDORSES IT OR ALLOWS HIS TRUE SERVANTS TO PARTICIPATE IN IT?

Point of correction: that term "ACTIVELY GRANTING" was yours, not mine. I have offered several texts to show that God and He ALONE GIVES rulership to whomsoever He wishes. The meaning of that is as stated in Romans 13:1 in the several English versions of the Bible -

GW - "Every person should obey the government in power. No government would exist if it hadn't been established by God. The governments which exist have been put in place by God."

KJV - "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

NET - "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God's appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God" (also as in ESV and EMTV).

NIV - "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

So, when making reference to God GIVING rulership to whomsoever He wishes, it bears the meaning expressed by the various connotations above - "established, put in place, ordained, appointed, instituted". Daniel 4:32 affirms this - "the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will", and that is what I have stated umpteenth times that the devil CANNOT do.

sage:
YOU HAVE BEEN POINTLESSLY REPEATING THAT VERSE OF THE BIBLE AS IF IT WAS A VALIDATORY POINT, IGNORING ALL THE HALLMARKS OF TRUE CHRISTIANITY AND FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN EXAMPLES IN THE PROCESS AND GOD'S OWN SACRED PLAN AND WORDS

Shout it as loud as you can, I ignored nothing. If you want to discuss Biblical Christianity, I'm one up for that. However, you cannot use a flawed notion of the devil GIVING rulership to ANYONE to launch your antics against the CHURCH. What you have been endlessly unable to substantiate has been repeated again and again, and if you cannot face up to it, simply say so.

sage:
Now answer those questions in the previous post and the one i raised ABOUT WHAT YOU MEAN BY ACTIVELY GRANTING HUMAN RULERSHIP

Done.

sage:
If you answer thEse questions, (then il really surprise since you say you don't know) by showing scriptures that clearly indicate that the devil does indeed give Rulership

If it is other than Rev. 13:2 which I have dealt with, I'm all yours and waiting.

@sage,

sage:
And please don't post your question again Il answer you comprehensively when you give me an answer to this question

Oh, I see you're getting really defenceless already. Dress warm, it can only get better.

sage:
Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule)

So whoever granted the devil rulership and control over the world also grants humans rulership in the same manner and under the control of the devil.
If God actively grants the devil rulership over the world, so does he to humans, if the devil is ruling the world with his permission, so are human goverments

So question remains

The devil is the ruler of the world and controls the worlds political realm and is ruining the earth. DOES GOD ACTIVELY GRANT THE DEVIL RULERSHIP OVER THE WORLD?

This question begs for an answer. No deviating, no changing course answer this question straight out.

Addressed already. Scroll up and see.

@sage,

sage:
Guy the Bible categorically states that the Devil gives rulership with great authority. The Devil can give Rulership. It is 100% within his Jurisdiction. Il give you the Bible passages.

That the devil GIVES rulership is NOWHERE stated in the Bible as being within his jurisdiction. I would like for you to quote the verse that helps your fallacy and then mirror that against what is stated in Rom. 13:1 (ALT - 'but the existing authorities have been appointed by God'; or ESV - 'For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God').

sage:
I just wanted you to see that even using your own argument, your theory that God actively grants human rulership is Flawed and baseless.

No worries. That only tells me you have a huge problem reading the Bible for what it says in order to supplant your fallacies. Go read them again: Psa. 62:11; Jer.27:4-6; Dan. 4:32; 5:18; John 19:11; 1 Pet. 2:13-14. And there's more if you want them.

sage:
Come back and answer the question.

You have been emptily quoting the same verse over and over again as if it will in anyway negate the fact that

1 Satan rules the world

I've answered your questions; and you can term my quoting verses to the point as however best suits you - it only demonstrates that you will forcefully blind yourself to the clear statements of Scripture in your desperate drive to stand as an accuser of the Church. Which is no wonder; because again and again, history repeats itself in people who see nothing glorious of of what God says about His Church.

sage:
2 God will destroy human rulership and those in it

That being the case, you put yourself under God's destruction as well, in as much as you're in a place where human rulership exists by God's direct ordinance.

sage:
3 Christians should be separate from the world
and all the other points that i have made from the bible

Christians in their separation should obey, respect, and pray for the governments that God has established by His own Sovereignty. To stand aloof will require a direct disobedience to what God has established; and doing so will bring dire consequences to disobedient people.

sage:
Uve been emptily quoting that same Roman's 13:1,2 and repeating this verse as if it is an excuse to participate in what God has condemned.

Open your eyes and read it well. Your pages upon pages of silly pranks to suppose what Scripture does not teach can be solved by reading God's Word.

sage:
When i listed some of the disgusting acts of the church due to their deviating from the neutrality and teachings practiced by Jesus and his apostles you had no excuse for it. You had no answer to all the Biblical references that makes Christians keeping separate from the world a must.

That is true - I had NO EXCUSES for your misconceptions, because the Bible does not teach me the herecies you levied against THE CHURCH. The Word of God does not teach a NEUTRALITY that you've been noising endlessly in this thread, and all other fallacies that you have been unable to adduce direct references for.

As regards Biblical references for Christian separation from the world, I addressed them well - and it is no surprise that you're quick to repeat your jokes that I did not.

sage:
All you did as a reponse to all the reasoning from the bible that i put out was to keep repeating the same empty question as if it validated anything.

All I did - that?? Now that says a whole lot about your poor scholarship. Go read where I addressed issues without circumventing them; and gave several verses to the point. I repeated the same question over and over again because you were typically prancing around and fudging it.

sage:
Well the answer to your question. The answer is yes. THE DEVIL CAN HAND POWER AND GIVE RULERSHIP. 100% WITHIN HIS JURISDICTION TO DO THAT. ITS IN BLACK AND WHITE IN THE BIBLE

Oga, where is the verse for that?? WHY oh WHY has it been sooooo difficult for you to give me the verse for your 100% fallacy??

sage:
I just gave you time to choke in your own arguments which have no biblical basis. I went along with you in your own reasoning to your that even with your line of argument, it still holds no water.

Thanks - I understanding the ambulance was called to help nurse you back from chocking on yours, since page after page you had it so difficult to provide the verse for your fallacy. That the Bible clearly shows that God and He ALONE gives human rulership has been stated and substantiated with text after text after text - poor you to have sweated them round to make no meaning to your scholarship.

sage:
So im going to post what i asked again

No worries - you'll come back knotting yourself yet again.

@sage,

sage:
The passages where the Devil gives Rulership is in Revlation. Il give you the passages but first answer this question which you have been dodging

I'd be glad if you could quote it. As far as I'm aware, perhaps what you might be referring to is Revelation 13:2 - "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

As you can see, this is speaking of the devil giving diabolic powers to the beast; and not to be confused for your earlier claim that:

1 The devil is the ruler of the world, human rulership is under his influence and it is to whom he wishes that he gives rulership

Now, does Rev. 13:2 speak of the devil giving human rulership to whom he wishes? You will not find it stated or taught anywhere in God's Word. Why do I maintain that persuasion? For two reasons:

(a) It is God's exclusive prerogative to GIVE human rulership to whomsoever He wishes. Text after text after text both in the OT and NT declare this very fact in such unmistakable terms, which I have referenced earlier. God NOWHERE deligated such prerogative to anyone else - men, angels, spirits or the devil. The fact that God reserved that right to Himself ALONE and declares the same is indicative of something many people miss: His Sovereignty.

(b) In giving those governments, God stipulates what believers should do in relation to them: respect, obey, and pray for them - I've offered texts for these as well. If we are to stand completely aloof, those texts would not have been penned, let alone asking us to even pray for and obey them. What is even significant here is that, there is no exception made to ANY one of these human rulerships/governments (Rom. 13:1). You can't pray for or obey these governments in any form if they were GIVEN by the devil.

Which brings me to a very important point: does Rev. 13:2 speak of the sort of Government (in terms of "human rulership" as God gives) that one is to respect, obey and pray for?? The diabolical operations of the beast empowered by the devil are spelt out in Rev. 13:7 & 8 - and that is NOT something akin to what we have been discussing all this while.

Not one text in the entire Bible teaches that the devil GIVES human rulership to whom he wishes, and Rev. 13:2 speaks of what the devil does in the apocalypse - a completely different matter altogether that in no way substantiates your argument.

sage:
You keep saying that God ACTIVELY grants power to people rather than allowing a rulership positionn by his PERMISSION ok

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is ACTIVELY Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule)

Here again is why your reasoning is flawed:

(a) God did NOT grant/give the devil rulership of the affairs of the world, nor does the Bible teach what you're assuming. I've already dealt with this issue earlier, and incase you missed it, follow the gist in this link and find out what the Bible means when it speaks of the devil as the prince, ruler, and god of this world.

(b) your assumption that the devil is in control of world affairs directly contradicts God's Word, for we are taught in several texts already mentioned that God is in control - and that is why believers are to obey, respect and pray for them. The devil does not GIVE rulership to anyone; neither is he in control of the affairs of the world as you strenuously assert.

sage:
So whoever granted the devil rulership and control over the world also grants humans rulership in the same manner and under the control of the devil.
If God ACTIVELY grants the devil rulership over the world, so does he to humans, if the devil is ruling the world with his permission, so are human goverments

God did NOT grant/give rulership of the world to the devil. Please sage, for every heresy you drivel on about, it would help if you could show WHERE it says that God gave the devil rulership IN THE SAME MANNER as He gives human governments. If you're not satisfied with the explanation offered earlier as to the meaning of the devil being referred to as the prince/ruler/god of this world, then let me know, and it would be no bother reposting the whole portion for your consideration.

sage:
Respond specifically to this.

I have a reason for asking you to respond to this simple question.

You keep bringing up Rom 13 1,2 that all authority is from God and Granted by God. Ok Agreed.

The devil is the ruler of the world and controls the worlds political realm and is ruining the earth. DOES GOD ACTIVELY GRANT THE DEVIL RULERSHIP OVER THE WORLD?

Again and again, I have referred you to the meaning of what such terms mean. God did NOT grant/give the devil rulership over the world to mean that the sinister minister of sin is in CONTROL of the worlds political realm. Read Rom. 13 again. That the devil can influence evil in political governments does not mean that he is in control of them; nor yet that he GIVES them in the first place.

sage:
If you answer this particular question, once i provide you with the passage of the bible where Satan does assign rulership and then il give you my final remarks as to why Human Rulership is no place for a true christian

There are the answers above. If there's a verse different from Rev. 13:2, I'll be glad to consider it.

blkmum700:
if Hell Fire Exist t ,which chapter and Verse is it in the bible ?still have more to post here.

Matt. 3:10 - And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matt. 3:12 - Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matt. 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matt. 13:49 & 50 - So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:43 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. (see verses 44 -48 ).

Rev. 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You can follow the discussion here, or visit the thread to read what others have debated on the subject: Hell Fire: A Twisted Truth Untangled

@sage,

sage:
@Stimulus Dont twist words

Jer 13 1,2 says that GOD PLANTED THE WICKED not planted people that later turned wicked. (Thats besides the point)

Nope, I didn't twist words in that text; but offered to show that your twisting and denying the same thing about God planting WICKEDNESS was not in those verses.

sage:
And throughout this thread uve been asking the same question, well the answer is

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule)

So whoever granted the devil rulership and control over the world also grants humans rulership in the same manner and under the control of the devil.
If God actively grants the devil rulership over the world, so does he to humans, if the devil is ruling the world with his permission, so are human goverments
and during your Bed time ask yourselves these self searching questions

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule) {its a self searching question, but it also represents my final answer to Stimulus as to who grants authority to rule, the question he keeps repeating in all the thread}

So called Christians have ended up killing themselves in millions and engaging in strifes and contentions due to involvement in the nationalistic politics of todays world in direct contradiction to the example Jesus and the true Early apostles did. Where would participation in politics leave someone who really wants to be a true christian and follow the footsteps of Jesus? Where would there primary alligiances lie? To the Christian brotherhood or to the politics of the nations? Would the millions of so called christians that have killed each other sincerely be said of to have

1 Put the interest of God's kingdom first?

2 Shown love for their so called brothers

3 Kept separate from wordly affairs as required of them?

And lastly where would participation in what God promises to destroy really leave somebody who wants to be a true christian?

These are self searching questions.

I have carefully read through your "self searching questions" - and for all of that, WHERE is the VERSE that teaches that the devil EVER GAVE rulership to ANYONE?? Why is the verse still missing from your posts up until now, sage??

At least, I gave no less than 6 verses showing clearly that GOD and none else GIVES rulership to whomsoever He wishes (Dan. 4:32 again for reminder). How is it that you lack the gentlemanliness to offer a verse for the very opposite as you claim??

@sage,

My question is a simple one:

WHERE in the BIBLE has the Devil EVER GIVEN RULERSHIP TO ANYONE?

@sage,

sage:
and one more thing b/4 i leave

It touches me to see how much damage Christiandom has done .

The example of Jesus and First century Christians on political Neutrality and non participation in politics has been ignored

True worship of God always warned people about involvement with what God plans to completely destroy

Christiandom on the other hand encourages people to participate in it. They engage in the politics of the nations and kill fellow so called christians as a result of their not heeding Jesus command to be separate from the world.

Its so sad. But i guess the bible was right when it said that Satan is misleading the entire inhabited earth .

People now want a backing for taking part in something God warns he will surely destroy.

Well what can i say. When i sit back and look at all this, all i can do is

This whole debate with you started by one question I asked, which has been repeated umpteenth times over - and up until now you have NOT in one instance offered the verse that teaches that the devil GIVES rulership to ANYONE.

If you can concede the fact that you stated what is NOT taught in the Bible, then you would have rested you case. And until you provide the direct verse in answer to that question, everything else is simply futile effort to retain your flawed position.

sage:
@ Stimulus let me leave you with one more thing

My raising the issue of Jer 13:1,2 was to contrast it with Psalms 37: 9-11

Jeremiah says God planted the wicked, Psalms says God will do away with the wicked. He planted the wicked, he will destroy them

Now does God really plant wicked people so that they can flourish?

If you want to learn, I'll oblige you. So far, you've been throwing verses around careless in your bid to make them say what they do NOT. The case in point is Jer. 12:1-2. You stated that God planted WICKEDNESS; which is NOT taught in that text or any other.

God plants people in positions of authority who become wicked - upon which God declares that He would divinely judge such leaders.

sage:
And when i asked the question Who is the ruler of the world and the one controlling the earth's political affairs i got no answer?

That was because you were playing your own games and refusing to answer the ONE question I offered you again and again. When you do so, then you will  be able to connect the dot and see how very flawed your ideas have been all through. Can you provide the verse where the devil has EVER GIVEN RULERSHIP to ANYONE??

sage:
If you can answer those two questions especially the second one in one word based on the scriptures then your question is answred.

Ciao

When you come round providing an answer to the question of the devil GIVING rulership to ANYONE, you will find how flawed are your posts. As long as you have NO verse for that, you're removing the rug from under your feet. One verse only is all I ask - then you will be able to reason out clearly why you got it all wrong.

@sage,

sage:
Continue decieving yourself.

Satan was granted authority to rule the earth and control all human political realms

,Political Neutrality and Separation from the world a must for true christians, is now against God's orders. Hear yourself.

Its funny how you dodge the fact that

1 The Devil is the ruler of the world

2 All wordly Goverments are under his control (he has enough control over them to incite them into opposition of God and hence their destruction Rev 16: 14 to 16)

3 All faithful and true early christians (including Jesus) Rejected and kept away from human politics

4 God clearly intends to destroy Human Rulership.

5 Christiandoms works have exposed her for what she is

I'm used to these sort of infantile rantings, so it's no surprise that you're repeating it at all cost to save face.

The point is that simple: where in God's Word does it say that the devil GIVES rulership to ANYONE?? Why has it ever been so difficult for you to quote just ONE verse for that heresy you've been noising all through your many rejoinders??

sage:
Your logic is so flawed it stinks

Thank you. If your logic does not stink, please be a gentleman and provide the verse; or convince us how much your ideas stink by leaving it blank.

sage:
Rulership was Granted to Humans by God you say
by the same vein then
Rulership and Control of the earth has also been granted by God to the Devil and the devil controls all human Rulership and true Christians should advoid it.

r

I can't stop laughing.

Another otiose drivel. Please simply provide the verse for that and rest your case.

sage:
The Judgement and destruction of all human rulership along with the spirit ruler of the world and all those who participate in human rulership has already been stated by the bible.

Its is your prerogative. Nobody can make that decision for you. Participate in it if you want. The church can mire itself in all the politics that it wants

the path of true christianity is clear, the same path chosen by early christians.

Total Neutrality with regards to all human political systems orchastrated by the real ruler of the world, Satan.

Seperation from the world (with the realisation that the worlds political and military desires will pass away, dealt with by God)

Realising that the only hope of man is God's Kingdom

The bible has stated that. Participate in what God has promised to destroy without fail. Its your choice, its the choice of hte Church, its the choice of all humans. Do what you wish

Period

This is simply argument by half-baked reasoning. I asked a question: please provide the verse. If you can't do so, rest your case. The Bible NOWHERE stipulates or teaches that the devil GIVES rulership to ANYONE. Period.

sage:
Well to other people

you all would do well to asks yourselves

Who really rules the world? What controls the political realms of this worlds rulership.


im finished with this thread for now

Anybody that thinks that God is in charge of this world's political affairs should carry on deluding themselves.

And anyone who thinks the devil GIVES rulership to ANYONE is most deceived, in as much as they can't find that in the Bible.

sage:
The bible has clearly shown the devil is in charge.

At least nobody so far has denied that God would destroy human rulership along with everything associated with it. The warning is there for all Choose for yourselves

It's a simple question: WHO GIVES RULERSHIP TO PEOPLE - THE DEVIL OR GOD?

@sage,

sage:
We aint debating Grammer here

For example Psalms 3:9,10 says God intends to destroy the wicked ones

Jer says he plants the wicked ones and lets them flourish.

Its obvious that the bible is saying the wicked accomplish what they do due to God allowing them to do that.

Let us say maybe if Grammer is the problem we are having let us rephrase it this was

You're on your own if you suppose this is about grammar.

The Bible is clear - God and He ALONE has the prerogative to GIVE rulership to anyone. The Bible again and again shows that He directly GIVES rulership, instead of your passive "PERMITTING" them: "the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will" (Dan. 4:32).

There is just no way any honest reader will twist that around and make it say otherwise. What you claim for the devil about GIVING rulership to whomever he wills is non-existent in the Bible, yes or no??

sage:
The authority that Satan has to control world affairs is granted him by God, so is that of human rulers, who are under the control of Satan. ie God granted the rulership of the world to the Devil and in the same vein the authority of human rulership is also granted by God but is under the control of the Devil. That does not change the fact that God would destroy both the devil and Human rulership

Now with that aside. The question is

Should true Christians participate in something that God fully intends to destroy. Should christians imitate the Early christians and stay away form something that is under the influence and control of the devil and preach about the only Kingdom that is Mankind's hope or should they participate in something that God will without fail destory along with everything associated with it?

Thats the question this thread is really asking

sage:
Hope no more Grammer problems. . My Primary school principal wont be pleased

The authority excercised by the wicked is also Granted by God in the same sense as the authority Satan and Human rulers excercise. No creature has any authority unless it is granted by God, from the Devil to human rulers to wicked ones, with the worlds affairs beign directed by Satan.

The question remains.

Should true Christians participate in Wordly Politics?

God gave these governments; and if you want to stay out of them, be my guest. However, remember that you would only be doing so by direct RESISTANCE of God's ordinance, with dire consequeces well spelt out (Rom. 13:2).

@sage,

sage:
There is no debating of this nor of the fact that God will destroy human rulership and those involved in it.

No human rulership would have any authority if not by God's permission.

Satan would not have the control he has if not by God's permission.

Wickedness and Injustice would not exist if it did not have God's permission
Neither will sickness and death

God plans to do away with all these things in his own due time.


well guys what can i say

I have shown you all i can from the bible. What else can i say?

You have exhausted yourself, and yet have failed to produce the verse that says that the devil GIVES rulership to ANYONE!! It is not in his jurisdiction to do so; and you would simply have to withdraw that inference.

sage:
@Stimulus

If you followed my posts from before you will see where i said exactly what you are saying.

Christians are to obey the law, pay taxes and follow ceasar as long his commands did not try to go against God's command.

So any true Christian would not be disruptive but would pay his taxes and obey the law in general.

I don't think my posts have been saying the same as yours. Pardon me, but if I missed it, could you refer me the page where we said the same things?? I say this because it is not and has never been my position that "Christians have a battle against world leaders" (your direct quote).

sage:
Pilates authority to kill Jesus was granted him from above simply b/because God allowed him to do it. If he did not have God's permission.

Pilate's government was not passively "permitted" - it was GIVEN from above (John 19:11).

sage:
So was Nebucadnezzers authority.

This also was GIVEN by God Himself (Dan. 5:18)!

sage:
But control of world affairs is ultimately in the hand of Satan

Satan's authority has been granted by God otherwise if God objected to Satan having that control, Satan would not have it.

Satan has NO jurisdiction to GIVE RULERSHIP to ANYONE!! Why is it so difficult for you to offer just ONE verse where Satan has EVER "GIVEN RULERSHIP"  to anyone??

sage:
U are the one deviating.

This topic is strictly Christians and Partcipation in politics.

Should Christians be involved in something God plans to destroy? Thats the question this thread is trying to tackle.


The devil controls human affairs because God has granted him that Authority. If God does not want to allow him to do that, he would not be able to, but since he does, the authority has been given him by God and by extension, other wordly Govts under Satan's control. The right to rulership belongs to God undoubtedly but he grants satan that Authority to dictate human affairs. He could stop that in an instant but he doesnt. He leaves Satan to control world affairs till his time to take action is due. Thats the point im trying to get across

I have been consistent althrough, nevermind your dribbles that haven't yielded fruit. The simple question I asked was again and again repeated: WHO gives rulership to anyone - is it the devil (as you stated); or is it God (as in the BIBLE)??

@sage,

I've tried to be reasonable with you all this while; but then you keep knotting yourself up. Here, if this would help you:

sage:
God could take out wicked people along with there wickedness in an instant. But he permits them to go on with there acts. There would be no wickedness on earth if God did not permit it. Wickedness exists due to God's permission of it until his own due time

Yep, I did not argue against that, did I?? Just so that you can understand that I concur with that, the same thing was stated by the Lord in Matt. 13:25-30 where He hints that both the wheat and the tares will grow together until the harvest.

However, my question is not on whether or not God PERMITS anything. Rather, I've consistently argued and debated your inference that the DEVIL GIVES RULERSHIP to whomsoever he wills. Nowhere in Scripture is the devil given that right to GIVE rulership to ANYONE - and if you believe otherwise, please cite just ONE verse where he has EVER done so!

sage:
God can take out all human rulership now (which he eventually will) but he permits them to continue till his time to destroy them comes along. Human rulership will not be here if not by God's permission, the same way wickedness is here due to his permission.

Please sage, the issue has not been about what God PERMITS or not. Rather, the whole argument is what He GIVES (establishes / sets up).

You may permit what you did NOT directly give; but you cannot claim to give something that is not in your jurisdiction. That said, the devil can permit, promote, influence whatever he wants to; but he is NOWHERE the GIVER of rulership!! The devil does not have that jurisdiction, not in even one instance.

sage:
Jer 13 1,2 clearly states God planted the wicked. You posted it. Read it again

Indeed, I posted it and read it before and after doing so. Where does it say that God planted WICKDNESS??

sage:
were you not the one that posted this

1Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously? 2THOU HAST PLANTED THEM, yea, they have taken root: they grow, yea, they bring forth fruit: thou art near in their mouth, and far from their reins.

What did God plant - the people or WICKEDNESS??

sage:
God grants wickedness, injustice,evil and other things permission to exist.

The devil would not be in control of human affairs if God did not permit it. The devil would not be misleading the entire world if God did not permit it.

Human govts can be destroyd in an instant by God (which he will eventually do) but meanwhile they exist due to his permission.

God simply gives human govts permission to exist.

But in the Bible he clearly states what his plans are for it. DESTRUCTION. The same fate that would befall wickedness, injustice and all

sage:
Also God can stop the wordly Govts from doing anything he does not want

But he allows and gives them permission to do all they do. They can't do that without his permission. Guys please this is crystal clear.

The fact that he permits Human Goverments to operate and exist does not change the plan he has for them, ie their total destruction along with all the other things God gives permission to other things to exist but he will also destroy those things like i listed above.

God GIVES rulership. Period. That is what Scripture clearly teaches. It is not a matter of permission; rather, the Bible clearly says severally that God Himself gives or sets up these governments.

Not only so, the Bible also says that CHRISTIANS are to obey, respect, and pray for leaders in the same governments which God has GIVEN!! Roman 13: 1-4 even goes so far as to state that anyone who resists these governments is resisting the ordinance of GOD!!

The devil is NOT the one who GIVES or sets up ANY human government. If you cannot adduce a text for your claim otherwise, say so and rest it.

sage:
When Pilate told Jesus that he had power over his life, Jesus told Pilate that he had no power unless it was granted from above. Jesus clearly showed that Pilate could execute him simply because the permission had been granted by God. If God did not want to permit it, he would not. The same thing is applicable to Nebuchadnezzar. All his accomplishments would not have been there if God did not grant him the permission to.

. . .or as you now editted it:

sage:
Pilate and Nebuchadnezzar had Permission granted to them and were allowed to do what they did by God. In that sense, all authority that they had was from God. Pilate could not execute Jesus if that authority had not been granted by God. Nebuchadnezzar accomplishments which he became excessively proud were on God's permission. If God had not permitted it, he would not have had those.

Oga, please go read it as exactly stated. In both instances of Pilate and Nebuchadnezzar, it is NOT a matter of PERMISSION, but of direct GIVING!!

John 19:11
"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." (it did not say that "it were PERMITTED thee from above"

Dan. 5:18
"O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour." (again, not "the most high God PERMITTED Nebechadnezzar"

This weak idea of making the Scriptures say something else is really cripping your argument. In your bid to mistake God for the the passive role of the one who "PERMITS", you keep on denying that He is the ONLY ONE who actually GIVES rulership to people!!

The devil NOWHERE gives rulership - if he does, please sage, do us the gentlemanly honour of quoting the verse!!

@sage,

sage:
Nah Guys.

God planted the wicked and the wicked bring forth wickedness. That passage did not say God planted people who later became wicked. It says God planted the wicked (and by extension wicked people commit wicked acts)

Okay, that's your your opinion; and I can afford to respect it.

However, it does not state what you did state earlier - that God planted WICKEDNESS, abi??

@sage,

sage:
Guy lets stop this merry go round.

Exactly, Just offer the text that says the DEVIL gives rulership to ANYONE, then you won't need the long thesis that still dribble around that question.

sage:
The bible clearly shows that the destruction of human rulership is inevitable. By divine principle everything associated with it is up for destruction too.
The bible also shows that the world, along with its desires (Political, Military that in no way honours God's incoming king or takes into account God's purposes) will pass away.

For the umpteenth time sage, WHERE in the Bible has the Devil GIVEN RULERSHIP to ANYONE

sage:
Anybody has a choice to make. You can chose to associate yourself with what God has made it clear he intends to destroy.

If you care to identify yourself with God, do what HE says - respect and pray for those in authority, pay your taxes, obey rulers set up by GOD; for there is no human rulership that be except it were GIVEN by GOD!! (Romans 13:1).

sage:
And in your quotation of Jeremiah did you not see the statement

"Thou has planted them"

What did God plant - the people themselves who became wicked; or does it say that God planted WICKEDNESS?? If you feel He planted wickedness, why did you come back denying your own statement with this line: "Jeremiah obviously did not mean that God planted wickedness"??

sage:
Yeah can you explain why Jeremiah would say God has planted the wicked?

i am waiting for an answer. Why would God plant the wicked and wickedness

I nowhere stated that God plants/planted WICKEDNESS - that was your own statement:

sage:
Jer 12: 1,2 says that God planted the wicked and wickedness and that they have grown and flourished

So, if you need an explanation, it should be put forward by YOU and none else. Cheers.

@sage,

sage:
well its no use then

Jesus was offered human rulership by the Devil and Jesus knew the devil controls it and he acknowledged it several times. If the Devil controls it, and all human rulership is under his power, how will he not give it to whom he wants, exactly the same way like he offered it to Jesus

Jesus NOWHERE acknowledged that the DEVIL gives or gave rulership to anyone. That is why I offered that if you believe the devil actually has that right to do so, then please cite ONE verse where he has actually done so to ANYONE!

sage:
Besides if that was a lie, then Jesus, John, Peter, Paul and all the apostles are liars too for acknowledging that human rulership is under the control of Satan

NONE of them stated ANYWHERE that the devil GIVES RULERSHIP to ANYONE! So where's the lie that you're strenuously trying to allege against them?

@sage,

sage:
Jer 12: 1,2 says that God planted the wicked and wickedness and that they have grown and flourished

Jeremiah obviously did not mean that God planted wickedness. But he simply acknowledged the fact that the wicked and wickedness present was forseen and yet it was allowed by God even though God could stop it, yet he permits it.

God foresaw human rulerships, foresaw the Devil's control of it along with wickedness suffering and all other things but he permits all these to continue even though he can end all of it at an instant.

Thanks. Again, where does it say that the DEVIL gives rulership to ANYONE?

Again, look at your statement:

(a) "Jer 12: 1,2 says that God planted the wicked and wickedness"

(b) "Jeremiah obviously did not mean that God planted wickedness."

Just so we don't promote unnecessary inference of what Scripture does NOT say, here's what Jer. 12:1-2 says:

¹Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously? ²Thou hast planted them, yea, they have taken root: they grow, yea, they bring forth fruit: thou art near in their mouth, and far from their reins.

It does NOT say in those verses that God planted wickedness.

@sage,

We're all grown-ups, so let's just stop playing semantic games.

sage:
and i did here too

John 18:36

John 18:36 - "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence"

HOW does that show that the DEVIL gives rulership to ANYONE

sage:
well guy i already did.

Jesus kingdom is not from the same source as wordly kingdoms. The kingdom of Jesus is from heaven obviously so that explains it all. And i also did with my last posts.

Would it be too much to ask that you quote just ONE verse for your claim?

@sage,

sage:
Besides on a lighter note.

Its funny what Christianity has been painted to look like.

The main theme of the bible which points to the vindication of God's soveringty, the establishment of God's kingdom which is the only hope of mankind that will solve man's problems and the destruction of human rulership in that process has been ignored by Christiandom at large.

Now people are left to debating things like.

was the wine Jesus and his apostles have = Ribena

is working in a bar sin?

Should women wear Trouser?

You must pay tithe!


so sad

On a lighter note, how is it that you dodged all the references I offered you to the point that GOD is the only One who GIVES rulership to ANYONE? if you dodged those offered in mine, on what grounds would you turn round and allege your own flaws on anyone else?

Please address the question; and if you can't, say so and preserve what's left of your scholarship before someone mistakes you for someone else. Enjoy.

@sage,

sage:
Nah guy. I posted more than 30 scriptural references. At the end of the day you are still saying that i said.

Jesus refuted the devil on the point of whom worship should go to. He never argued as to the devil giving rulership to whom he wants. He could have refuted that too. Besides the Devil knew Jesus knew who controlled wordly earthly kingdoms. About 5 of the scriptures that i posted came directly from Jesus mouth where he acknowledged the devil as the ruler of the world. If all the kingdoms of the world were not under the domain of the Devil, Jesus would not have said so. He was not offering Jesus something that was not his. Human rulership was under and still is Under Satans control. Jesus acknowledged this several times and so did the early apostles including John

Besides if God had given rulership to men in these wordly kingdoms, why then would Jesus differentiate between the source of his own kingdom, which is from God, and that of wordly kingdoms? Why does the commision to preach directed to only one kingdom, a divine one as opposed to any wordly kingdom then nor in the future. If the bible says that the whole world is under the control of the devil who do you think is in control of wordly govts?

FUNNY ENOUGH YOU DODGED ALL THE SCRIPTURES THAT

I tried dealing with all the verses you had referenced, and they certainly were simply are out of context to the main question I asked. If you missed them, scroll up back and read them to see I did NOT dodge them.

sage:
1 CLEARLY IDENTIFIES THE DEVIL AS THE ONE CONTROLLING THE WORLD'S AFFAIRS

2 TELLS CHRISTIANS TO BE SEPARATE FROM WORLD AFFAIRS

3 SHOWS THAT GOD WOULD DESTROY ALL HUMAN RULERSHIP AND ANYTHING THAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH IT AND THEN THE RIGHTFUL RULERSHIP OF THE WORLD WOULD BE HANDED BACK TO CHRIST

YOU CLEARLY DODGED THE DISGRACEFUL AND ROTTEN WORKS OF THE CHURCH, THEIR WORKS HAVING CLEARLY EXPOSED HER.

You can shout all you want, but I dodged NONE of the Scripture texts you offered; unless you simply want readers convinced that you refused to read my rejoinder before making these otiose allegations.

sage:
God still remains the rightful owner of the world though the affairs of the world are controlled by the devil. God still has supreme power to shape events to fufill his plans and purposes. For example he used a chosen nation to bring his seed that would redeem mankind. Israel was a theocracy that was used by God to fufill his purposes.

Now guy this is a useless debate if
1 The example Jesus and his disciples displayed towards wordly politics don't mean a thing to you.

2 All the biblical scriptures that clearly show that the devil is controlling human affairs and is the ruler of this world are to be ignored

3 Christian separateness from world affairs and love among the brotherhood as identifying marks of true christianity is supperceeded in your mind by national alligiances.

4 Most importantly, the destruction of ALL human rulership and establishment of the only KIngdom that God approves of, under his son.

If these do not help you, im afraid i can't

My question still is unaswered: WHO gives rulership to anyone - is it the devil (as you stated); or is it God (as in the BIBLE)??

If you can NOT address that question with a direct reference, please say so.

ishmael:
@stimulus

Muslims will surely hate jews. Have you forgotten that it was a jewess that killed him, by poisoning meat she prepared for him??

No, I haven't forgotten that - which is precisely one of the points I'd like abdkabir to note when he reads my rejoinder.

@sage,

My simple question is: WHO gives rulership to anyone - is it the devil (as you stated); or is it God (as in the BIBLE)??

@sage,

sage:
and one other thing

Jesus has laid out the identifying marks of true christianity.

He also said that by their fruits they shall be known.

2 Cor 11:14,15 shows that the Devil keeps transforming himself into an angel of light and so do his ministers.

Christiandom has been parading itself as an angel of light. But as Jesus said, by their works they shall be known. Which brings us back to examining the works of Christiandom

If you want to examine the works of Christendom, you're welcome to be my guest. My initial enqury has yet to be answered, and I'm waiting. Besides, I've often opined that Christendom as it is today does not answer wholesale to Biblical Christianity. However, this should not be taken as an excuse to slur the Church under the guise that one is examining "Christendom" (instead of your "Christiandom".

sage:
and my contrast with what 1st Century Christianity could have looked like if they had mired themselves in the politics of their day

I doubt very much that you even pass your own test; as anyone careful reader would discern that in spirit, tone and substance, you really have many issues wrong.

sage:
What a disgusting harlot christiandom is. The king of God's kingdom Jesus is looking on as this so called steward abandons the commision that is laid out by Jesus and turns to promoting human govts, adorning themselves in Man glorifying robes, parading God dishonouring teachings and practices, her history soaked with blood, apostacy and harlotry with human rulers and claiming to be his true sevants at the end of the day
Little wonder God's judgement on her (and all other parts of that harlot) will be decisive, just and awe inspiring.

I don't think any of us here will honestly examine Christiandom and say she does not deserve every single bit of it

I hope you can clearly and calmly discern between "Christianity" and your misnomer of "Christiandom". Biblical Christianity encourages Christians to obey, respect and pray for human governments and leaders - that has been stated umpteenth times. Now if you miss all that in the Scriptures themselves, you play the harlot that you allege against others, besides the fact that you have been promoting and parading the God-dishonouring teaching that the devil gives rulership to whomsoever he wishes.

sage:
N/B

Israel cannot be used to compare the nations of the worl because

1 Isreal was for the sole purpose of advancing true worship and divine plans (non of which is applicable to wordly nations today)

The purposes of Israel as a nation under theocratic rule is as clearly spelt out and not to be confused with the purposes God had for the nations of the world. God had plans and purposes for the nations of the world as He did for Israel.

sage:
2 True worshippers of God were not killing themselves in war (unlike Catholics and Protestants killing each other)

Whether you like it or not, Israel as a theocratic nation went to war with other nations - go figure.

sage:
Also saying that Jesus did not use the internet, wear pants or drive a car is irrelevant too because

1 Jesus used the means of transportation available during his day.

2 He wore skirts, the type of Jewish clothing available during his day

3 He used the means of communication available during his day

But Political power was available and was offered to him but he rejected it.

Sorry, that He rejected political power does not mean that the devil is the one who gives rulership to whomsoever he chooses. That question is yet unanswered in all your thesis; and if these are the so-called surprises you had in store, I'm greatly disappointed in your desperations.

sage:
So my last words remain what it is. After a in depth examination of the bible

POLITICS IS NOT FOR TRUE CHRISTIANS

That's a very weak epitaph for all your efforts. Until you take care of the initial misconception of your allegation that the devil gives rulership to ANYONE, there would be no substance in the body of your arguments.

@sage,

I knew you would predictably bring up all these references; which again proves that you already made up your mind before opening the Scriptures to hear what it has to say on the subject. However, let me walk you through the loopholes in your latest entry:

sage:
1 Who rules the world?

Luke 4:6 The devil showed him all the kingdoms of the Earth and their glory and said that all this has been delivered to me AND IT IS TO
WHOM I WANT THAT I GIVE IT TO. (it couldnt have been more clear from the devil and Jesus knew it was true so he didnot argue that
point)

This text has been misused by many to suppose that the devil actually gives rulership to whomsoever he chooses. Oga, what we many times fail to understand is that the devil was speaking another one of his bogus lies! The Lord didn't have to defend anything or argue with him about his obvious lies. Let me ask you a few questions:

(a) if the devil gives rulership to ANYONE at all, could you cite just two verses where in fact the Bible states that he has ever done that?

(b) whose PREROGATIVE is it to give rulership to anyone - the devil's, or God's?

What you direfully missed here is that the devil was surreptitiously making a claim that does not belong to him at all. The Lord Jesus exposed the devil for who he truly is, for "he was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (John 8:44; or as rendered in the NIV, 'When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies'). It is therefore not surprising that the devil was obviously lying in arrogating to himself something that belongs ALONE to the sovereign God.

sage:
1st John 5:19: The whole world is in the power of the Devil.

John 14:30: The ruler of this world has no hold on Jesus.

John 12:31 The ruler of the world judged, is to be cast or thrown out (similar to John 16:11)

2nd Corinthians 4:4 Devil the God of this world

You obviously are going by the English wording and exposing the fact that you have not studied the context or substance of the texts you quote. There are several contexts of the word "world" in Scripture. 1 John 5:19 does not suppose at all that the devil has absolute power or control of the world in the sense of being in control over the universe; for that is alone the prerogative of the Lord Jesus Christ, of whom it is doubly testified that He upholds all things by the word of His power (Heb. 1:3), and by Him all things consist (Col. 1:17).

When Scripture speaks of the devil as the god of this world (2 Cor. 4;4), it is in reference to the rebellious system of men and fallen angels in the world. It is from such a rebellious system that the Lord Jesus gave Himself to deliver us (Gal. 1:4 - 'that He might deliver us from this present evil world'). This rebellious and ungodly system of which the devil stands as the prince is expounded for us in Eph. 2:2 & 3 - "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Never forget that all power in heaven and on earth is in the hands of the Lord Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:18); and in the Lord's prayer, believers recognize that the power and the glory and the Kingdom belongs to God (Matt. 6:13), and not at all to the devil.

Hence, when the Bible speaks of the devil as the prince, ruler, or god of this world, it is in reference to a rebellious system operating in the lives of the ungodly. It is not in reference to any idea of the devil setting up or giving rulership to anyone in the first place. Until you find the verse that specifically states that the devil gives rulership to whomsoever he wishes, the idea remains a smoke screen; a facade nowhere supported in the Word of God.


Now, in your second summation I observe you have driven issues far too much in a desperate bid to secure your default misconceptions; and here are a few pointers for your reconsideration:

sage:
2 Influence of Satan on human rulership and Gods plan for all human rulership

1st John 5:19

Daniel 2:44 The God of Heaven to establish his own kingdom that will crush all human rulership and bring them to an end

Rev 16:14-16: Satan incites the rulers of the earth and God to destroy all human rulership.

Again, it does not state that the devil or Satan gives rulership to anyone. In fact, you have just come round reiterating what I stated earlier, that he may influence evil in governance; but it is not in his jurisdiction to set up or give rulership to anyone.

sage:
Ephisians 6:12 Christians have a battle against world leaders and the invisible spirit rulers who control human rulership

Nope, Christians do NOT have a battle against world leaders, in as much as they are men (termed "flesh and blood" in Eph. 6:12), and our battle is NOT against them; but rather against spiritual forces of wickedness in high places. It is for this reason we are to pray for leaders and all in authority (1 Tim. 2:1-2); respect and obey civil authorities (1 Pet. 2:13-14); and also pay our taxes without a hint of civil disobedience (Rom. 13:1-4). It is really a sad misconception to read that Christians have a battle against the same world leaders that we are to pray for and obey!

sage:
Psalms 110:5. Rulers to be broken to pieces in the day of God's anger.

Evil rulers - read it in context of the preceding verses. God has nothing against earthly rulers as such; but He will bring evil rulers (who stand as His enemies) to divine judgement.

sage:
Psalms 2:8,9 Nations to become the inheritance of God's anointed king. Human Kingdoms to be broken to pieces.

Same as just above.

sage:
Dan 7: 13,14: Rulership to be given back rightfully to Christ

The question is: WHO gave rulership to men in the first place - was it the devil, or was it God Himself (Dan. 4:32)? I'm still waiting for a direct reference in the Bible where you read that the devil in any ONE instance set up or gave rulership to ANYONE!

sage:
3 What influences Christian attitudes towards wordly political power

John 6: 14,15- People are amazed and happy at Jesus works try to confer human rulership on him. He declines

James 4:4 . Friendship with the world is enemity with God.

John 15:19 Christians to be separate from the world (the world would hate them as a direct result of this)

John 17:16 Separateness from the world a must.

John 18:36 Jesus Kingdom not from this world or the same source as the other wordly kingdoms

1st John 2 15-17. The world is passing away (Together with its its military and political desires)

This simply begs the question. Where is it written that the devil GIVES or sets up rulership to ANYONE? You can't dribble round a flawed concept and then build your theology on it.

sage:
James 1:27. Christians to be separate, without spot from worldly affairs.

James 1:27 does not say "wordly affairs" - it simply says: "keep himself unspotted from the world." The same thing is implied in John 17:15 where Jesus prayed: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." The apostle John sums up 'the world' in this context this way: "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" (1 John 2:16).

There are issues of world affairs that the Bible says God deals with, and Daniel 4:32 again reminds us that "the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will."

sage:
4 Do true worshippers of God place their hope in men?

Jer 10:23 Jeremiah acknowledging to God that It does not belong to man to direct his own ways.

Ps 146: 3,4 : Do not put trust in Men because no salvation comes from anyman.

Ecc 8:9 Man has oppressed man to his affliction

Abeg you, do all those Scriptures negate the fact that God Himself is the One who gives rulership to whomsoever He wishes? Do those verses even teach the opposite of obeying, respecting and praying for the leaders and authorities that God Himself has set up (Rom. 13:1-4; 1 Tim. 2:1-2; and 1 Pet. 2:13-14)??

You're arguing in circles, because if one should apply the same rule and stretch it the way you do, then think about this: it is no secret that some Christians have defrauded their own brethren (1 Cor. 6:8 ). Does that therefore make Christianity a wrong system? In the same way, your reference to Eccl. 8:9 is too weak a claim for supposing the idea that human rulership or governance is all evil and the Christian should have nothing to do with it. Such an idea simply falls on its face when we read texts upon texts that tell us the undeniable fact that (a) God Himself is the One who gives rulership to whomsoever He wishes; and (b) Christians should obey, respect and actively pray for those in authority, rather than disavow them.

sage:
5. Commission for true Christians

Matt 24:14. The news of God's Kingdom to be declared accross the corners of the earth.

Acts 1:19-20 True christians to witness about Jesus to all the Earth

6 The hope of True Christians lies not with any human Govt but with the Kingdom of God under Christ. The kingdom that will wipe away all tears from all faces, make wars to cease to the extremities of the earth and do away with death forever plus a million other benefits
Rev 21:3,4 (and a host of a million scriptures that will be provided on request

The way you drivel is the icing on the cake!   Do you have another Bible that has 'a host of a MILLION scriptures'? Anyway, enjoyed your joke. At the end of the day, you have failed to clearly enunciate how Scripture indicates that the devil gives rulership to anyone. Do you think there's indeed a verse for that misconception at all, which you could offer us in your next post?

Cheers.