₦airaland Forum

@babs787,

babs787:
Honestly I don't want to indulge in roundabout argument that lacks proofs, facts etc, I really dey enjoy sport threads

Do you really acknowledge the textual proof, facts, etc. that are being offered in any discussion at all? Has it not been your trademark to conveniently use Bible verses and then deny others where they do not fit into your agenda? When you're talking about "proof" and "facts", do you ever mind those that are very often provided?

babs787:
Before going further on the issue of salvation going to the jews. Please explain the below verse

Mathew 1 v 21: she will bear a son, and you shall call his name jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

Another question here, who are Jesus's people?

The Jews are the people from which Jesus' lineage is traced, and let us not forget that this is in fulfillment of OT prophecies and not mere coincidence.

Matthew 1:21 points to the salvation Jesus would bring to the Jews. There are also OT prophecies declaring the same thing; and Psa. 130:8 is well known among the Jews: "And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities."

However, Scripture also speaks of the fact that the same salvation in Jesus Christ shall be offered to non-Jews - to all the nations of the world:

Isaiah 11:10 - "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Isaiah 52:10 - "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."

Luke 24:46-47 - "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

The problem with the typical Muslim thinking lies in taking a few verses (usually out of context) and disregarding the rest in selective arguments. The idea that some verses are true and the others untrue carries no weight of persuasion; and the collective testimony of Scripture is that Jesus Christ is the Saviour both of Jews and Gentiles.

babs787:
Did you see what your brother write
"salvation is of the Jews." meaning that Jews only will be saved am asking what of those that are not Jews. If you are not a Jew, no salvation for you because salvation is for jews.

Thank you for your usual fallacious argument; but it is still begging the question.

The Bible never said "Jews only will be saved"; for if that were true, then YOU babs787 are damned as well for being a non-Jew!

Clearly, Jesus' statement was conveying the understanding that salvation comes from (or proceeds from) the Jews, and not from any other nation.

God had promised this salvation through Abraham, saying to the patriarch, "in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" (Gen. 12:3). That promise was reiterated in Gen. 22:18 where God said to him: "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."

That this promise was to be fulfilled, not through the Arabs, but rather through the lineage of the Jews (through Isaac), is confirmed in Gen. 17:21 where God said: "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year". God further reaffirmed this in Gen. 21:12 when He said, "for in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

When Jesus made the statement of John 4:22 ("salvation is of the Jews", He was affirming the very same thing God had spoken severally right from Genesis. He did not mean at all that 'Jews alone will be save'; for His salvation is offered to whosoever believes - Jews and Gentiles. "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." (Isaiah 52:10).

babs787:
Still on the same topic. If salvation of of the jews, how come your holy book is different from theirs? If salvation comes from the jews to other nations as said by you, why don't you follow their holy books?

It all depends what you mean by "follow" their holy books. The OT contains the prophecies of the redemption that was to come through the Messiah (e.g., Isaiah 9:6 and ch. 53). In the NT, we find their fulfillment (e.g., Gal. 4:4-5). As such, the OT typologies of sacrifices for sins do not continue as a literal observance; for they find their fulfillment in Jesus Christ, who Himself said He came to fulfill them for us (Matt. 5:17).

Now, it would be such a towering display of ignorance for anyone to suggest that the OT sacrifices should take the place of Christ who has fulfilled them for us. It is clear from the OT itself that the sinaitic Law (the Law of Moses) did not take away sin (cf. Heb. 10:4 & 11 with Psa. 51:16 and Jer. 7:22-23). Those sacrifices only prefigured the perfect sacrifice we find in Jesus Christ, of whom it is said: "Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

Certainly, there are principles of life in the OT from which we as Christians still learn from for our walk with God. But the OT worship under Judaism was never committed to Christians in the first place. That is why Jesus in the same John 4 clearly taught that true worshippers would no longer need to go to Jerusalem; but would rather worship the Father in spirit and in truth (vss. 21 & 23).

Since you make so much noise about this issue, do you as a Muslim follow the holy Book of the Jews? How come Muhammad's revelations from 'Allah' is so different from the revelations given unto the Jewish prophets?

babs787:
Brother, you drew me into this so you must be prepared for the questions. Do Jews and Christians follow the same Testaments?

I've answered you just above. You drew yourself (as you usually do) into this discussion and are trying to invite an unnecessary argument (as you usually do). So, you must be ready to answer several other questions that will be served you in exactly the same way that you have  been disingenuously calumniating the Christian faith.

babs787:
Brother, was it Jesus that said the statement in John 3 v 16 and is Jesus the only begotten son really? Also I will be giving you verses that said that he was not sent to the whole world but to the nations of Israel including the twelve tribes of Israel.

Dear babs787, open your eyes and read the whole of the NT - and read it in its context, instead of the usual way of Islamic selective thinking and argument. If you are readily happy to to quote one set of verses for your argument, be honest enough to admit to what the other set of verses say, even though you find yourself knotted.

That said, John 3:16 was spoken by Jesus, and He is the only begotten Son of God. His mission was to the whole world, even though He first presented Himself to His people the Jews.

@babs787,

babs787:
Honestly most christians do not think before addressing issues. They don't know that anything being said, goes back to them.

Do you really think before jumping in to address issues at all?

babs787:
The above italicised word calls for some questions

1. What do you understand by that word, 'salvation is of the jews'?

If you understand anything better, please share and don't start another argument pretending you don't understand English anymore! "Salvation is of the Jews" in context of the discourse Jesus had with the woman in John 4:22 simply means that it is from the Jews that salvation will come to the nations of the world.

babs787:
2. Are you a jew?

Does one need to be a Jew before receiving salvation in Jesus Christ?

babs787:
3. Do christians and Jews share the same belief, read the same holy book etc ?

And what is that supposed to prove? Do Muslims and Jews share the same beliefs - do they read the same book, etc?

Christians are not Jews to whom were committed Judaism; but believing Jews and Christians believe in the OT prophecies prointing to their NT fulfillment. Not to even mention that Muslims do not believe in the so-called "revelations" which Muhammad said were given by 'Allah'.

babs787:
4. Was he sent to you?

Jesus Christ was sent to the whole world - John 3:16.

Oga belloti,

You're still making otiose noise. Where is the justice in this Islamic ideology of cold-blooded murder? What exactly was Toyin's heinous crime that has been so deserving of the treatment by Muslims in the name of 'allah'? Are there no Muslims right there in Gombe that would rest this issue by bringing those "whoever-acted-in-disregard" to justice? What is the meaning of "the Law that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for the killing of (a disbeliever)"??

belloti:
As long as we did not say this you guys will just keep knocking the issue and refuse to accept what really the muslims said. In islam it is forbidden for anyone to take any innocent live and that is very clear to every muslim, whoever acted in disregard to this, is difinitely on his own and should be brought to justice.

This is precisely why no one should wonder that arrests have still not been made!! Murderers in Islam will be allowed to go scotfree, roam our streets for yet more murders, . . . and we will never hear anything better than "they're on their own" - on their own to commit more murders!! Perhaps, if the Muslims in Gombe will make concerted efforts to bring their murderous brethren to justice and convince us that they cannot be left "on their own", then we would put a feather to your cap that Islam is not what is being represented by those "whoever-acted-in-disregard"!!

Sitting down behind a PC and making this hypocritical noise is hardly scoring any points on your apologetics. Just forget this dribbling. The murder was wrong; but the excuses you guys are offering are even WORSE!!

Muslims in Gombe should take the first step to bringing those guys to book - the Muslims there know those murderers. Until that is done, please don't talk about "justice", because you guys have no clue what the first letter of that word means!!

Permit me to say, this type of "commonsense" is absolute codswallop. The inference derived above is simply out of ignorance of what the collective testimony of Scripture teaches. Jesus Christ is God Himself - ever was God, but became Man (John 1:14).

That Jesus is the divine Logos (Word) is also declared in Rev. 19:13 where we read that "his name is called The Word of God". What John 1:1 gives us is that there is no shade of difference in the essential nature of the Father and the Son; for whatever the Father is, that also is the Son. Jesus is not less that deity, and that is what Isaiah, Zechariah, John, and several other prophets have declared.

topefisayo:
Jesus is the Son of God and not God himself. That is the problem we always have with our muslim brethren because we often say that Jesus i God.Let it be clear to all

Even the confession of Jesus as the Son of God is still a huge problem with Muslims.

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=51366.msg1082117#msg1082117 date=1177958219]Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 25, Number 3644:
Narrated Jundub: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone interprets the Book of Allah in the light of his opinion even if he is right, he has erred.

So, be sure that if you see "SLAY THEM" in the Qur'an 2:191, no Muslim will agree with you that the word "SLAY" means "SLAY" - because even though you are "right", you are bound to be in "error" for being a non-muslim.[/quote]

No wonder!

babs787:
Biko. I hit you real hard huh? I am laying the thread to rest, it has been established that the bible is 100% complete (yes ke), so no more drama

Hit me hard ke? No bros. My boss just happen to change the rules in the office - on a Monday morning fa!! To make matters worse, he's Muslim (with a golden tooth like a returnee from Hajj) Never mind, we get along very well. . . and I mean "very. . em, . . very very well!"

There's another kind of 'shaking' I'm extending to you too. If I hear one more word from you, woo. . . our usernames go change for Nairaland!! I go become stimulant for chemical reaction (Iran will be too slow); and you go turn to blasts787 (Kim Jong III??).

Fair enuf?? Enjoy!!

babs787:
Beating about the bush, defending the indefendable. Let me ask you, which came first, the Essenes or christianity?

What beating about the bush? Let me ask you: where did Muhammad take his version of religion from - Christianity or Essene?

babs787:
still making no sense. Trying to cover up the loopholes. It has been established, your bible is incomplete and not 100% the word of God

Still dribbling around the fact that your claim for the LOST injil, torah and Psalms have been exposed? If you have an ounce of honesty in your soul, why not admit to your contradiction of claiming the LOST injil while running to the Bible to quote Genesis, Deuteronomy, and those other books? If Muhammad's claim of prophethood is in the lost books, then that claim is LOST; and any attempt to quote the Bible is plain dishonesty.

babs787:
still not making sense,. Read more on the above and on the hadith you quoted therein
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-48586.32.html

What hadith? You guys make me laugh! How many issues have been offered to expose the fallacies in Muhammad's claims? The only thing you have been offering in your replies are endless denials of glaring evidence. We are used to the al-taqiyya of Islam, so there's nothing new in your typical responses.

babs787:
@stimulus

If you want to post anything, you are free to. Have you seen me registering my post in any of the christian threads despite all your blasphemous statements. So brother, if you feel like I have said anything that called for your comments, you are free to submit your post just like in other threads.Its a free world.

Peace.

I'm surprised you're pretending that you haven't registered "anything" in Christian threads. Most of your blasphemous statements are well noted and still in the various threads where you posted them.

In as much as it is a "free-world", I'm not the kind given to your antics - and that is why you haven't seen me engaging in endless arguments with people (and I made that point clear the very first time I engaged you in a debate).

Cheers.

@babs787,

babs787:
@stimulus

Calm down, hope you are not frustrated (from the tone of your post)?

Certainly not. Glad to know that my tone sent a message across, though.

babs787:
"the ransom for the releasing of the captives from the hands of the enemies, and the law that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for the killing of (a disbeliever).

I have told you that the incident you quoted happened during the war fought by the Holy Prophet and if you do not understand, try reading it over and over again for understanding.

Do you know what it means to take a life on the excuse a so-called desecration of the Qur'an? And for your info, what you're coming back with even makes matters worse. It is the same partisan and slaked response that another Muslim (abdkabir) keeps pandering about in the face of reality that denies this Islamic propaganda.

babs787:
If you care to know, I and the rest of muslims have told you that no muslim supported the act and have given you enough explanations. So if you are not satisfied, its your problem and not mine. I have told the one that created this thread that no muslim supported the act and even gave you verses from the Quran and Hadith going against that.

Peace.

What the creator of the thread did not know is what I posted there. Notice what that part of the hadith states: it is a LAW that no muslim should be killed for killing a disbeliever!! Where in the hadith has that "law" been abrogated; and what is largely responsible for the muslim ideology of killing people at almost every instance of an excuse like that??

You'r trying to sound like this is an isolated case. Whether the originator of the thread knows it or not, this is not an isolated case!! The Islamic world encourages this nonsense and offers a silly "it has been condemned by the entire Muslim world" - as if it changes anything or brings back those who are senselessy murdered in such manner!

Please babs787, there's just no need trying to slake it off for your camp. The act was wrong; and if Muslims actually want to convince the world that the Qur'an has anything to offer in defence against this barbarity, then ARRESTS should be made and the perpetrators brought to justice!! That was the question that prompted my response to remind readers as to WHY no one would be arrested - it is an Islamic LAW!!

@babs787,

babs787:
Must you lie or pretend not to understand sentences in order to defame Islam? If not that you are here to make mischief, you would have understood that the incident happened during the wars fought then and I have given you verses forbidding killing and the punishment for killing in Islam.

Rubbish. You guys pretend with your Islamic propaganda that the Qur'an forbids the killing of non-muslims. If that were true and to be taken seriously, what was Muhammad thinking in saying one thing in the qur'an and saying something totally different in the hadith?? Lifting or not, what we are concerned about in the concept of Qisas is this line -

"the ransom for the releasing of the captives from the hands of the enemies, and the law that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for the killing of (a disbeliever).

What nonsense! I have no problem with Muslims blowing up and sending themselves enmass to hell in queue for their reward of 72 virgins. But to come on board in a public Forum and pretend that Islam "forbids" the killing anyone is absolute rubbish! From where do Muslims get the ideology to go on rmapage killing people in the name of 'Allah' for any stupid perceived excuses? You're only making matters worse by this banality. Go tell that to the grieving families. You tell me - what do you think would have been the typical Muslim reaction or response to non-muslims killing Muslims on the same premise??

And point of correction: I'm not here for mischief, pretences or lies. To have read me or anyone as such is to expose the fact that you're as guilty of your own accusation.

@babs787,

babs787:
@stimulus

Jump for my seat? No way, Allah is sufficient for me. But sir, can't I discuss with a brother? Na real wa o. Ok, I am very sorry sir, it wont happen again.

No wahala if you want to discuss with a 'brother'. I don't remember any Christian posting anything on this thread until you invited such comments. Cheers.

@babs787,

babs787:
I should be the one asking you that. I thought you were a muslim and you might have read his story in my book. Are you telling me that the Gospel with you now is the one given to Jesus?

I should applaud pilgrims.1's concise rejoinder to that rubbish you posted there. You very well know that neither Christians nor Muslims pander to the so-called GNOSTIC Christ. When you reposted that excerpt, your opening comments were: "Read more about Jesus", and one should not be surprised that Islam promotes GNOSTICISM. And for all that, Muhammad yet did not know what to do with his tales of the 'christ' you copped out from the Essene.

babs787:
Point of correction, I am not deriding Jesus. I am not doing anything anti-Islamic unless you want to deceive yourself. You would have read his story in my book, compare the story in my book to that of your book. We muslims believe in all prophets including Jesus in which you are aware of. I don't want to go far because it seems I have received nairalandian handshake but will still welcome any question as far as Islam is concerned.

Nope, you Muslims believe in LOST books! You are the same person who claimed that the TORAH, INJIL and PSALMS of the Qur'an are lost; and you still are yet to address the question of where you get your stories from. Just take style stop deceiving yourself - there are no prophets you believe in; and that claim that you believe in "all the prophets" is a sham for your apologetic "lost" books. It is now obvious that you're on a godless adventure to deliberately calumnize Jesus Christ, which is only a reaction to the exposure of the cover-up that pilgrim.1 has been carefully offering readers. Glad to know that her posts are reaching you where you least expected.

babs787:
Sister, stop deceiving yourself. I already believe in Jesus as the prophet and messenger of God sent to the Israelite wit the Gospel.

That is why Muhammad didn't know what 'allah' would do to him after he died. What a pity.

@babs787,

babs787:
When you read Quran chapter 3 and 5, you will see that they will be spending so much time, money, energy on the so called evangelism but their deeds will not be looked into on that day.

Wetin warrant statement wey no concern your matter for this topic? Na so una dey start. If people begin to relate to Islam as a so-called propaganda now, you go take style jump for your seat.

In an Islamic enclave (rather than in a democratic community), murders committed by Muslims are never charged against the perpetrators. Click here and read more (see Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Book 3, Num. 111 quoted there for the concept of Qisas).

feelgood:
Have the murderers of teacher Toyin been arrested yet?

For where? U neva hear of Qisas?? Dem no go arrest anybodi!!

@zebra,

zebra:
Yes, meaning ishmaelites and arabs who are in Christ are children of Abraham and heirs according to the promise abi?? I'm happy to know that.

Yep, that's precisely the point: those who are IN Christ. Problem is that the same Ishmaelites and Arabs want to remain WITHOUT Him.

@babs787,

babs787:
How did mohammed die? - you ran away after giving frivolous excuses

I didnt run. I felt that there is no need answering you because you are inclined to falsehood. His death is not controversial like that of your God Jesus. I don't participate in argument that lacks proof, evidence, facts etc.

The reason why you could not participate in your debate in that thread was because you lack proof, evidence, facts. Contrary to your argument there that has been challenged, Muhammad simply did NOT perform ANY miracle. Period.

babs787:
Where are mohammed's miracles? - you fled after islam's inconsistency and falsehood was exposed.

Pilgrim requested for it and I gave her. I left the thread because it was turned to another thing. If its left for pilgrim and I, no problem but I saw that you have taken it too far, so I left you to wallow in your ignorance. If you want to learn, am here for you. Did i hear you say falsehood, ok, wait till I post more of your falsehood.

The so-called evidence you gave was challenged because of its inconsistency and lack of common sense. You never returned to give any explanations to the questions that followed. And your remark should be of huge interest to YOU: "If you want to learn, am here for you." Yep, we're all here dishing out scholarly lessons for your enlightenment; sadly, you many times fail to take your own advice.

babs787:
Is there salvation in islam? - you merely listed details of your rituals and promptly fled.

Unless you davidylan is blind. I have posted more than enough and I am telling you now that without you being a muslim, no salvation for you, salvation is found only in Islam.

Let's hope that you stop deceiving yourself, babs787. We all know that there is NO salvation in Islam. Muhammad faulted all the 'promises' of 'Allah' in the Qur'an when he contradicted them in the Hadith. He went so far as to state that even he himself was not guaranteed salvation by the same criteria that the Qur'an held out for others. I've dealt with that in another thread, and here repost them:

---

Almost every religion preaches good works and deeds of righteousness - including Christianity (although we are not saved by any work of righteousness which we have done - Tit. 3:4-5).

However, I'm very aware that there are many verses in the Qur'an that predicate salvation in Islam on deeds and good works. Another example: Sura 5:9 says, "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward." And again in Sura 7:8-9, "And the measuring out on that day will be just; then as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is heavy, those are they who shall be successful. And as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is light those are they who have made their souls suffer loss because they disbelieved in Our communications."

There are many such verses, babs787, there are many such. What I cannot understand with you guys is that you fail to see how Muhammad controverted this promise of 'Allah' in the Hadith. He categorically said that Muslims are not saved by good works or deeds of righteousness; not even MUHAMMAD HIMSELF can escape that:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise.”
(i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet’s companions) said,
‘Not even you, O Allah’s Apostle?’ He said, “Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and
mercy on me. So be moderate in your religious deeds and do the deeds that are within your ability:
and none of you should wish for death, for if he is a good doer, he may increase his good deeds,
and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to Allah.”
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, Bk. 70, Num. 577).

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The deeds of ANYONE of you will not save you (from the (Hell) Fire)."
They said, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O Allah's Apostle?"
He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His Mercy on me.
Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the
forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle,
moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise)."
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8, Bk. 76, Num. 470).

There are several other Hadith verses that speak to the same point. But there again, apart from deeds of righteousness, what about the question of SIN?? Muslims often accuse Christians as being the grossest of sinners on the face of the earth; but was Muhammad any better when he admitted to his sins and turning in repentance to Allah over seventy times DAILY? This is not some peripheral claim, babs787; and I'd like you to see for yourself how Muhammad dealt with SIN among Muslims:

Narrated Abu Dharr:

The Prophet said, Gabriel came to me and gave me the glad tidings that anyone who died
without worshipping anything besides Allah, would enter Paradise. I asked (Gabriel),
‘Even if he committed theft, and even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse?’
He said, ‘(Yes), even if he committed theft, and even if he Committed illegal sexual intercourse.”
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 93, # 579).

Quite to the contrary, the righetous Lord of heaven and earth will not let sin abide His presence. He offers His forgiveness and cleaning of sin in the Name of Jesus Christ the sinless One; and NO worshipper of 'Allah' who dies in their sins (theft, illegal sexual intercourse, etc. included) will EVER enter into paradise:

"For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" (Rev. 22:15).

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor. 6:9-10)

---

babs787:
I've also wondered with careful observation about why babs787 keeps hopping from thread to thread and dodging questions these days. Even when people try to be reasonable with him and address some of his questions (most of which do not even deserve any answers), he runs around with even more of his games in hope that readers would either be left confused or just tired out.

I will appreciate it if you and I can iron out issues without 3rd party. If you agree, its ok by me.

So, what is wrong with others joining in the debate on any subject or thread? You wan continue your "taqiyya" on a private level??

@babs787,

babs787:
You peope never knew that whatever you say bounces back at you.

It's just the other way round: whatever allegations and accusations Muslims have acridly made against the Christian faith have been applied in examining Islam. The bitter truth is that you Muslims do not like being served your own diet, and the way your authorities go about quelling apologetic debates is by issuing fatwa, blowing up innocent people, or declaring jihad.

babs787:
1. In the Holy Quran ,we have abrogated verses and we have the reason for saying so. The abrogated verses are still there in the Quran. Now are you telling that there are no abrogated verses in the Bible despite the fact that Jesus said that he didnt come to annul.

Be honest, or simply claim that you don't really know the facade in Islam, the Qur'an and the Hadith.

The satanic verse has been editted to cover up the paganistic polytheism in Islam. Muhammad confirmed that he was made to forget certain verses of the Qur'an, and chose instead to adopt the renderings of those from whom he heard them.

Aisha also confirmed that certain verses which are not in the Qur'an today were formerly written on a sheet of paper, which was eaten by a goat.

Besides, I've dealt more on this issue by showing that most of the BOOKS Muhammad's 'Allah' revealed are nowhere to be found in the Qur'an, nor have Muslims up until today provided us with any such document.

babs787:
2. What Gospel are you referring to, Mathew, MARK, lUKE, John, Acts, James etc.

What "Gospel" was Muhammad claiming that 'Allah' sent down, which NOBODY has seen?

babs787:
Sister, I have had enough, am backing out because I have learnt that you have never answered the question(s) posed at you, rather you resort to lifting from chowdry, silas etc. I want to be committed to Islamic threads, learning about my faiths etc and leave you to your disbelief but if you need my attention, I will be eager to assist.

I'm sure you'd be rushing back instead of backing off - with more denials, no worries. We have also observed that you never answer questions offered you; and most of what you post are dressed up plagiarized material you found on other websites - I've said it before, and continue to say it, until you can afford to think for yourself. No problem in you devoting more time to Islamic threads; hope you'll be blessed soon to see that Jesus Christ is the Saviour - holy and without sin.

Me sef, I go soon waka for a long while - man must make a living; plus, summer dey come!

If you really have a heart to be honest, reasonable, and to learn, we are more than willing to assist. Enjoy.

IDINRETE:
PERSONALLY I DO NOT THINK THEY ARE THE SAME GOD

@IDINRETE, Indeed, you're right - they're not the same God; and Christians do not claim that they are the same.

zebra:
my brother ,you are right o. But why did God choose the israelites as his only chosen people?? What about other nations, tribes and races, were dey not created by the same God??

@zebra,

There's one reason why He chose Israel - that through the Jews salvation in Jesus Christ would come to the ends of the world (John 4:22). Of course, other nations, tribes and races were created by the same God, and the Bible acknowledges it so (Acts 17:26; Job 12:10). He loved and provided for them as well (Acts 14:16-17; Matt. 5:45).

However, by "choosing" Israel as His covenant people by redemption ties, He would demonstrate His encompassing love to ALL nations, tribes and tongue (Rev. 5:9).

Cheers.

@abdkabir,

Apologies for my late response; but here it is, even between my busy schedule.

I actually have cause for concerns about your view and convictions in Islam. Not disavowing your yearnings for understand and balance in approaching issues discussed, nonetheless it is deeply worrying that you keep euphemizing the obviously concrete facts of the questions being raised here.

abdkabir:
I certainly didn't mean to infer Muhammad by refering to some jews in that context discriminated against them. All i intended to infer by thats tatement was that , yes Muhammed talked about a people (could have been any peope jew, arab or whatever) who transgressd on a commandment of God and were punished.

Your explanatory lines in parenthesis circumvents the concrete argument that Muhammad meant none other people group than the JEWS. They are the only ones in the Qur'an known to have been given the law of the Sabbath; and in that connection, Muhammad made the following pronouncements against them concerning apes, swines and pigs --

Sura 2:63 -65
And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) :
(Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein:
Perchance ye may fear Allah." But ye turned back thereafter: Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of
Allah to you, ye had surely been among the lost. And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed
in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
(or, Pickthall tr.: 'how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!').

Sura 7:166 - When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

There is no other people group (not even Arabs) meant by the denouncement with apes other than the Jews.

abdkabir:
Same way Muhammed talked baout old Arab Nation like the (Thamud people) who also transgressed on other issues and were punished. Yes Muhammed probably compared black man to satan same way he said Bilal (a black man) would have entered paradise before him. Same way he extremely praised the Negus (King of Abysinnia Ethiopia) before and after his death.

We all know Muhammad was very political in whatever he engaged in - praising people as long as it suited his purposes; denouncing them and pronouncing wars against them when he found them rejecting him. This is the case with particular reference to the Jews and Christians; as well in some other instances. There is no gainsaying the fact already argued, that Muhammad's hatred against the Jews in particular is obvious to all - and that confirms his racist ideology and career.

Cheerio.

Unu no go carry out castringingcastration here O!

Biko kwa, abeg make unu carry this conversation to IM on Yahoo, Hotmail, or AIM - man pikin dey squirm for im seat here O!!



_{@babyosisi, U see d mail wey I rush you jus now??}

olutomiwa:
with the time you spend reading the bible,i wonder if you still have time to read your "holy" quran,but its good sa,because very soon you will be giving TESTIMONIES in a Church,don't say God forbid,that,s your only way to eternal life.

Ohh dear! Right outa my mouth!!

mukina2:
yeah does the truth include ridicule?

you believe in what you know .you can't ridicule others just because you think u stand for the truth .
tell me how will people reply to you .when all you do is make fun of our Prophets or our religion?

My dear mukina2,

Let's just be grown ups and be honest about this issue. I don't want to go down that raod, unless you deliberately want people to post here on the Forum the mind-bungling things Muslims have said about the Lord Jesus Christ and the cherished tenets of Christianity. I don't see Muslims being sensitive or respectful in those issues.

In all my posts, I have tried to be as objective as can be - please go through them when you can. I'm not one to call for ridicle; and whenever your steam calms, you can see that in my posts.

It is up to Muslims to proffer answers to the concerns expressed on the Forum - whether from skeptics, atheists, other Muslims, simple sidon-look readers, or Christians. If Muslims are not going to do so, no one will hold their necks to a knife. Some of your apologists often scoot issues in some threads; but then they go on spewing unreasonable drivel about Christianity, with calumny in the disguised excuse that they are only asking questions.

No vex, but na so e be. If I have offended you, more love and peace "gbosa" upon you. If that is not enough, please cut and repost ALL my ridicule against your prophet, and I will see what I can do - for thy sake.

Cheers.

Aiight, people. . . make una kulu-kulu temper.

Truth MUST be told; although we sometimes find ourselves on both sides of the divide going overboard.

Muslims in their Qur'an know that verse that admonishes them to b temperate and invite people to debate in modest manner - alas! Most often times, they forget that ayat and pour vitroil on the cherished beliefs of Christians. Only after they feel the seat getting hot under them, that's when they wave a white flag!

Even we sef, we know what 1 Pet. 3:15-16 admonishes us - alas! when tempers rise, certain of our brethren go call us to order. And our own white flag, nko?? Na love and peace we go take bomb una, so that una no go miss paradise!!

Okay, back to table - discussion must continue (minus the vitriol and saliva drooling from the corner of our mouths O!) Me, I wan know the bottom of dis 99 names wey Mo give to his attendants!

Again, love and peace gbosa everyone of YOU!!

@babs787,

babs787:
There is something I missed when I wasnt around but when the time comes, we will re-address it

No wahala. I'm going to be very busy beginning next week; but I'll always try and address the issues you bring along. In hindsight, please do us the favour of addressing issues laid out for you, abeg - especially those posted by pilgrim.1 

babs787:
I have provided rebuttal, its left for you to bring it out for me where it refers to Jesus. You may bring the verse out if you so wish and we will treat it together again.

What you offered was your trademark denial, rather than rebuttal. Here's Isaiah 9:6 again:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,
The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Now, let me ask you: If that verse was not refering to the MESSIAH, then WHO was it referring to?

babs787:
Brother, you keep nailing yourself. Why not do us proud by posting the verses for people to see. Let me have it from the verses where it was prophesised that he would be crucified. from the OT. I have been reading same bible as yours and it never supported crucifixion

Okay, here are the OT verses I offered earlier in reference to the crucifixion:

Psalm 22:16 - "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."

Zechariah 12:10 - "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn"

Here are the NT verses in fulfillment of those referenced in the OT:

A. Psalm 22:16 & 18 and Mark 15:24

Psalm - "¹⁶For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. . . ¹⁸They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture."

Mark - "And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take."


B. Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:37

Zechariah - ""And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

John - "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

Now, babs787, what is your understanding of the word "pierced" in those verses, and how do they differ from their fulfillment in the NT verses I referenced as well??

babs787:
Your belief

Oga, na true I talk now. . . anyone who goes to those websites at first glance know say you dey photocopy (or rank xerox) their vexations, dress them up and call them your own. Haba, maigida. .minini??

@babs787,

Thanks for your reposte. This is my response:

babs787:
My brother, if you are not a muslim, nothing for you, there is nothing as sweet as being a muslim.

Okay, I can understand that you're repeating Muhammad's claims by rote without having examined ALL he said and taught. If anyone follows the adventures of Muhammad, would one call that "sweet"? I give you just one: what is sweet about "turning in repentance to Allah more than sevety times in a day"?? What is even sweet about the racism against the Jews that Muhammad pronounced as a 'prophecy' for the LAST HOUR unto Muslims?

So, if I happen not to join ranks with those who have no assurance of their sins forgiven, and who express such deep racist hatred against any group of people, then there's nothing for me?? So much for the salvation in Islam; but no thanks - Jesus has both changed my life, filled me with love and hope for hope for the glory of His presence in the Second Coming.

babs787:
Was Jesus a christian?

He has always been the Son of God and Lord of our salvation. Deny that, no bother; but He certainly was NOT a muslim.

babs787:
Quran 3 v 85: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost.

Was that why Muhammad declared war on non-Muslims when he sought to force his religion on others? But you should have quoted Sura 2:256 where Muhammad said that "there is NO COMPULSION in religion"; and yet he still came back to controvert that statement with this hadith: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle. . ." [Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Bk 2, #24].

babs787:
Quran 3 v 91;Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in th Ayat (proofs, evidences, signs, revelations etc) of Allah, then surely, Allah is swift in caling to account.

Another partisan quote. First of all, what are the "proofs, evidences, and signs" of Allah? If there were any, why have you been conspicuosly absent from The Greatest Miracle In islam??

Second, we all know that Muhammad likes to accuse others - and for reasons which include jealousy. One of the reasons why I'm persuaded that Jesus Christ was NOT a muslim, is because He asked for forgiveness for His persecutors and unbelievers (Luke 23:34); and He urged Christians to both love and pray for those who hate and persecute them (Matt. 5:44); whereas, Muhammad's recommendation to Muslims can be found in Sura 9:113 -

"It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire."

babs787:
Quran 2 v 277: Truly, those who believe and do deeds of righteousness and perform As-Salat and give Zakat, they will have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear , nor shall they grieve.

Almost every religion preaches good works and deeds of righteousness - including Christianity (although we are not saved by any work of righteousness which we have done - Tit. 3:4-5).

However, I'm very aware that there are many verses in the Qur'an that predicate salvation in Islam on deeds and good works. Another example: Sura 5:9 says, "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward." And again in Sura 7:8-9, "And the measuring out on that day will be just; then as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is heavy, those are they who shall be successful. And as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is light those are they who have made their souls suffer loss because they disbelieved in Our communications."

There are many such verses, babs787, there are many such. What I cannot understand with you guys is that you fail to see how Muhammad controverted this promise of 'Allah' in the Hadith. He categorically said that Muslims are not saved by good works or deeds of righteousness; not even MUHAMMAD HIMSELF can escape that:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise.”
(i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet’s companions) said,
‘Not even you, O Allah’s Apostle?’ He said, “Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and
mercy on me. So be moderate in your religious deeds and do the deeds that are within your ability:
and none of you should wish for death, for if he is a good doer, he may increase his good deeds,
and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to Allah.”
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, Bk. 70, Num. 577).

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The deeds of ANYONE of you will not save you (from the (Hell) Fire)."
They said, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O Allah's Apostle?"
He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His Mercy on me.
Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the
forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle,
moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise)."
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8, Bk. 76, Num. 470).

There are several other Hadith verses that speak to the same point. But there again, apart from deeds of righteousness, what about the question of SIN?? Muslims often accuse Christians as being the grossest of sinners on the face of the earth; but was Muhammad any better when he admitted to his sins and turning in repentance to Allah over seventy times DAILY? This is not some peripheral claim, babs787; and I'd like you to see for yourself how Muhammad dealt with SIN among Muslims:

Narrated Abu Dharr:

The Prophet said, Gabriel came to me and gave me the glad tidings that anyone who died
without worshipping anything besides Allah, would enter Paradise. I asked (Gabriel),
‘Even if he committed theft, and even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse?’
He said, ‘(Yes), even if he committed theft, and even if he Committed illegal sexual intercourse.”
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 93, # 579).

Quite to the contrary, the righetous Lord of heaven and earth will not let sin abide His presence. He offers His forgiveness and cleaning of sin in the Name of Jesus Christ the sinless One; and NO worshipper of 'Allah' who dies in their sins (theft, illegal sexual intercourse, etc. included) will EVER enter into paradise:

"For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" (Rev. 22:15).

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

@viee,

I feel you; but then, the debate must continue. Not for the reasons you stated; for indeed, no one welcomes a debate with the goal of being saucy to the cherished beliefs of others. I think pilgrim.1 has a good disposition as far as her posts are concerned; and beyond the internet, no one knows how ANY ONE of us lives his or her life.

Besides, if debates (in context of apologetics) like these are never engaged, some of us would never have come to learn about the things we have. For instance, na one babe wey I dey pursue 'that time' that got me thinking about the state of my soul. Okay, she's married now; and I lost the relationship; but even as an unbel in the midst of a largely Muslim family, it is amazing how Christ touched my heart and turned my life around for good.

When family members became upset upon my conversion, I was helpless in providing them with issues from their own books as to why Muhammad CANNOT be a prophet of God. Only by learning from the debates and articles of others on the internet have I come to understand more; and have used most of what I learnt to both challenge my older sibblings - two of whom are now very busy Christian ministers, besides their professional occupation.

I would rather pilgrim.1 helps us with her inputs on this subject; because most Muslims will tell you that the qur'an ALONE is the spine of their religion; and from that default position, they attack the Bible as an INCOMPLETE book. Besides and between me and you, I'm sure a lot of readers will come to learn so very much from the entries posted on the threads - provided we try and do so in an objective manner (1 Pet. 3:15).

@nossycheek & Genial,

It's true that babs787 deliberately doesn't ask questions with the aim of learning or reasoning with people. However, we can see now at last that he is only reacting to the same tough issues referred to by TayoD - he's scooting off from thread to thread in pretence that those other issues do not exist.

babs787:
I have stopped creating new threads but started it when i saw pilgrims'.

Like I said, he's reacting to pilgrim.1's recent entries: her several questions and topics are giving him the heat; and it's not too much of a marvel to notice that he's coming round charging at just about anything in his way.

Okay, true he doesn't deserve any answers; but we dey here, and we will continue to be amused by our friend's boredom.