₦airaland Forum

Turkey is a game changer

Ukraine. This armor saved a soldier. Probably Turkish made. Anyone can ID.

Toju200:
Nigeria air force CH-4 And CH-3 UCAV

Those are TB2 Bayraktar in the middle?

Lurker4Long:
Global Aviator on the Milkor 380 UCAV.

Africa's global hawk. I wish Nigeria could purchase this. It's gonna be very effective for ISR.

.

kabe1:
.

Do you feel it's proper for the police chief to be here?

PrinceOfLagos:
Aboki is not insult

Go ask the meaning of aboki, it's not insult

He said, "stupid abokis"

GreenandGold:
I stole the company name from a glorious Nairalander, I can't trademark it....design and production of such things came out of the "golden era"

verdammt

Faithful007:
TBH, you should not have debated this. This whole debacle. You are basically listing all the problems SA is facing as country without putting things in context or making a suitable balanced juxtapose of past and present South Africa. You hurriedly made some statements without caring first to understand how SA has evolved as a nation over time.

First the independence of SA is somewhat complicated. Having gained independence in the 1930s, much earlier than many other African countries, SA still remained under the British crown and heavy influence on the minority government by the British government. Things started going south when the minority government decided to institutionalize their economic and political superiority handed to them by the British. Apartheid did not start in one day. It grew gradually as the minority government added legislation bit by bit. This brought them conflict with the British. The british political system know how to stand together better than America. Many Conservatives and Liberals denounced apartheid. In protest, the minority government seperated from the British crown and sought to build a neutral South Africa. This happened in 1961 as South Africa was preparing to jump deeper into apartheid. Much of the world was pissed at this point.

America will always be America. Apartheid became political in the US. Democrats would place sanctions on the minority government, when the GOP returns to power, they would remove them, preferring to be more "diplomatic". Reagan was the worst. To please SA minority government who were stockpiling arms and nuclear weapons (Note this), he went as far as to place Mandela on a terrorist watchlist. In the 80s, blacks in South Africa, motivated by the success of the Civil rights era began a much more determined push for freedom from apartheid. Violence skyrocketed and hundreds of black people were killed.

By the 80s, the US moderate republicans had taken the side of the SA blacks while the far-right was still kicking. The US response to a large extent still stalled because Regan was unwilling to take a stronger stand due to racial bias and the cold war. US arch enemy the Soviets backed ANC. Bush was a bit more considerate. But the tide was already turning against Apartheid, so Bush had no option than to be more cautious since China and the Soviet Union supported ANC.

Now remember where I told you to note. Denel and the SA indigenous military industry you see today is a direct child of the apartheid. To understand this properly, note that SA government then was seen in the eyes of the world, very much like how Iran is being seen today. They were under heavy sanctions from the UN and much like Iran today, resorted to developing weapons themselves. Making shady deals with Israel and some other countries, defence technology was secured. Money for development was diverted to secure the minority class with weapons and ammunition and deter a possible invasion of South Africa. AIDS skyrocketed during this period and the SA minority government did nothing about it since they were already segregated from the poor (blacks).

That period was one of the darkest days in SA history, deaths and poverty and weapons. I'm sure that's what you referred to as a golden era. That's where all those charts skyrocketed. The flourish of the military was all to keep the people under subjection and to deter an external response. PEOPLE DO NOT FEED ON BULLETS.

Essentially what enabled Apartheid to flourish in SA for such a long time was right wing politics being played in the US and Israel and to a much less extent in Britian. As recent as 2020, Trump was still spreading a conspiracy theory about a white genocide in SA. No left-wing government tolerated apartheid.

Post-apartheid SA's indices are heading in a good direction. What matters most is not if Denel is working as well as before or not. Sustaining such a small-scale industry is much more expensive given there are no sanctions anymore. The important thing is that the economic and social indicators are in a better shape than ever before. Many black billionaires in SA including the president Ramaphosa built their business careers shortly after the apartheid. SA's economy diversified and an entertainment industry even sprung up.

The issues of inequality still remain, but remember it was way worse when inequality was legal. A lot of things may still not be in the right shape but SA was never better managed under white minority rule. Thank you.

I understand your perspective. Thank you.

Exnavyboy62:
Has anyone checked out the global firepower rankings for 2023. Ukraine was ranked 15th and it got me thinking how they deserved that position.
Even though they have being butting heads with their powerful neighbour for over 11 months now and they caused some significant damages to the Russian military, they've only been able to do so with help from the so called "international community" which can withdraw it's aid at any unexpected scenario.
The invasion occurred in February, the Ukrainian military was crippled by March before the West began sending aid.
Let's not forget the foreign mercenaries and NATO soldiers dressed in Ukrainian camouflage uniform helping out in Ukraine.
Russia dragging it out with over 30 countries directly and indirectly(physical warfare, sanctions, isolation) and still stands without trembling deserves to be ranked first but for the undisputed financial, technological prowess of the US.

The top 5 African military powers were also ranked lower in the global rankings than they were in 2022.

Since the invasion, in as much the Ukrainian armed forces are seen and perceived as weak, the world had rallied behind Zelensnsky's countrymen.

More aids had been sent and spent which is more than the entire Ukrainian armed forces budget in the last decade combined. This alone with awaiting equipment like the Bradleys are enough to increase their position in the GFP

QuietMynd:
No, it is a fact, nothing myopic there.
U don't expect a teenager at puberty to have same understanding of things like a adult with full hairy balls

I see, you measure IQ by size of balls and amount of hair growth. I now understand that you're all brawns and no brains. Perfect for cheap labour in the guanteng mines.

QuietMynd:
How old re you sef ?
You must be a teenager, cuz u re typing like one

Measuring someone's IQ by perceptions of age shows how myopic you are.

GreenandGold:
Leave him alone, he is some random guy who probably lives in a sh#t hole trying to get attention.

Don't entertain his further attempts to derail.

I live in a "shithole" which the greatest South African man believes is your liberator and beacon of hope.

I'm proud of my "shithole".

Lurker4Long:
Stormtrooper11, you've had hours to refute my 9 data-points and prove your golden era through the economic index. Every other index flows from the economy, so should be a doddle. I need to get on to other indices and need your response.
Or were you just mindlessly repeating shit you read on the internet and gullibly believed without proof, just because a white man said it? Either that or you just pulled that golden era shit out of your arse?

I'm not supposed to respond to this, but like I said I've already given my points. Economy alone can't be used to measure the successes and fails of an era. Crime rates for example is an indices that affects the economy negatively. Also, the economy can also cause an increase in crime rates and vice-versa.

I'm not one that will start scavenging the internet to proof what is facts already. You can choose to live as gullible and ignoramus, with your Mandela utopia while your government is in decline. Keyword "government".

What's the point of my take? What am I trying to proof by stooping low to argue with a deluded individual like you?

I'm trying to proof that the ANC government hasn't matched strides made by the apartheid era instead they've mismanaged the country. Corruption is on an all time high. The black South African man is still a second class citizen in his country. Black South African people are still seen as the major perpetrators of crime, kidnapping and major infected by HIV/AIDS.

One would had thought, with the advent of democracy in 1994, that key issues like land ownership control will be addressed and key industries and sectors like eskom, Denel and the SANDF will be better managed and expanded. The wins of for example eskom, be consilidated. Instead, Zuma dropped back to back corruption like albums. Incompetent people were appointed into government like that former guerilla that heads your MOD.

Also, apartheid is not something any black country will or should wish for but like every era of history, their are advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantages clearly outweighs the advantages due to one clear point. Which is the discrimination of the black south African people, for the existence of discrimination or any form of abuse against a race is a crime against humanity itself.

I don't wish to reply you again, so don't bother asking. Your squabbles won't change anything or ease the sufferings of your people or slow down the decline of the ANC.

Lurker4Long:
What were the crime rates during your golden era? How was land ownership and resource control of citizens great during your golden era? What were the unemployment rates during your golden era?
When you say South Africa during apartheid was the golden era, you should easily show me how all those indices reflect that greatness.

Done that already. I'm done going back and forth.

Lurker4Long:
Again, prove this. Repeating statements without providing proof is deranged. Did you go to school at all?

Asking questions without reading my points is totally deliberate ignorance and proves your inability to comprehend and understand before replying to me.

Lurker4Long:
Congratulations, you've proved you can at least copy and paste.
You have not yet proven the greatness of your golden era.
Some free education: if you say x is a golden era and I say prove it, you don't go and say but y is not this or that.
Let me give you a few pointers:
1) Electricity: how much electrification during your golden era versus the democratic era;
2) Infant mortality;
3) School enrolment;
4) Child malnutrition;
5) Access to clean piped water;
6) Access to decent housing;
7) Access to economic opportunities; etc

These are some of the indices civilised people use to measure development and thereby proclaim the greatness of one era to another.
So, get started and spare me more copied assertions without evidence.

What bout crime rates? Land ownership and resource control of citizens? Unemployment rates?

Point 2 to 7 were rampant only in the black environments due to alienation and discrimination, in fact, the areas with still high rates of these are still the black populated areas.

Exnavyboy62:
Point no.3 got me laughing at the top of my voice
Although as Nigerians we shouldn't be judging on which era in South Africa's history was the best for them cause our country did not experience any thing like apartheid.
The disadvantages of apartheid outweighed the advantages which was mostly in favour of the whites.

I can't even imagine Nigeria going back to British colonial rule despite the legacies left behind (Western education, Politics and government set up, Military build up, some notable English cultures and other so many other things)

Exactly, what I meant. I mentioned countless times that, the main disadvantages of apartheid was the abuses against black people. The infrastructure development and management was at a faster pace then.

However, as we all know, colonialism and apartheid were two different things.

GreenandGold:
You're delusional

1. You fail to provide data for your "truth"
2. You are NOT in South Africa like me to see the difference between the 80s and current era like I can.

All you are doing is shooting up comments from your god-fosaken Naija a$$ and claim to be the truth.

You're black South African. I didn't expect you to benefit from the apartheid or see anything positive in that era but South Africa as a country and its government did.

Lurker4Long:
Of course he can't provide any evidence for his assertions. Simply regurgitating racist rubbish he's read on social media. And of course an internalised inferiority complex that equates competence with melanin renders one susceptible to believing the nonsense.

Inferiority complex? I have none. My country and countrymen weren't raped, plundered, alienated for decades by a government which claims to represent me. That was you. My military wasn't made by 80 percent white people. My banks weren't all owned by white people. My land wasn't majorly owned by white people. My infrastructure wasn't built and maintained by a white government for decades. That all happened to you, Mr. South Africa. The south African man , infact, is the one with inferiority complex not the Nigerian who didn't even let it happen in the first place at all.

Faithful007:
You just confidently write many claims you have not bothered to verify. Apartheid South-Africa was better managed? With what evidence?

Pic1 and Pic2. Murder rates in South Africa rose during apartheid and fell sharply after apartheid.

Pic3: AIDs death rates fell after apartheid. Mind you, the apartheid government did not respond to AIDs death rates because it disproportionately affected blacks

Can you show statistical evidence on how South Africa has regressed post apartheid?

Regardless, SA is still the AIDS capital of the world

GreenandGold:
He spends too much time in those "Stop White Genocide" Facebook racist pages that spend all day praising Apartheid and the Rhodesian government.... You technically provide no evidence to your statement in those pages (groups), you simply just post a meme-style picture and the f00ls like him believe it without checking proper sources or data.

You believe, me, a Nigerian, spends time on FaceBook which i don't even have the app, just to be pro-apartheid? lol. The truth is always hard and bitter.

Lurker4Long:
This is getting tiresome. Cheap exploited black labour built South Africa.
List just 10 indices that prove this golden era you mention, with verifiable sources.

White South African leadership coordinated, organized and laid the foundations of modern south Africa. Labour can be found anywhere but only the ones with the will uses it. The present ANC led government is lucky to have inherited a country with all those infrastructure and industrialization set in place already . Without those, the ANC government won't have had the means to sustain the country and the nation would had plunged into anarchy.

I will list some notable indices like you asked, by listing some achievements of the apartheid government and show you how they've fared under the current dispensation:

1. "Denel SOC Ltd is a South African state-owned aerospace and military technology conglomerate established in 1992. It was created when the manufacturing subsidiaries of Armscor were split off in order for Armscor to become the procurement agency for South African Defence Force (SADF), now known as the South African National Defence Force (SANDF), and the manufacturing divisions were grouped together under Denel as divisions. It is the largest of South Africa's state owned arms companies. The company had been experiencing major financial problems since 2015 and in 2021 it was announced in Parliament that Denel was on the brink of insolvency. The company stated that its woes were due to declining local defence budgets, weakened relationships with key customers and suppliers, the inability to retain or attract skilled personnel, ongoing salary disputes and a Fitch ratings downgrade."

The establishment of Denel sealed South Africa place in the defense world as a major producer of arms. However, as you can see from the write up above, the corporation is declining due to economic downturns and ineffective policies of the ANC government. Its now a shadow of itself.

2. "Eskom Hld SOC Ltd or Eskom is a South African electricity public utility. It was established in 1923 as the Electricity Supply Commission (ESCOM) and was also known by its Afrikaans name Elektrisiteitsvoorsieningskommissie (EVKOM). Eskom represents South Africa in the Southern African Power Pool. The utility is the largest producer of electricity in Africa, and was among the top utilities in the world in terms of generation capacity and sales, but due to the ANC and incompetence has since slipped in both categories."

This energy company which had thrived through the apartheid leadership is facing its worst times of existence, and again due to the ANC mismanagement.

3. The SANDF, formerly the SADF was once a fighting force to be reckoned with in the entire African continent and the world at large but its now fighting for its survival against budgetary cuts by the ANC government. Led by a defense minister , Mrs. Thandi Modise , with clearly no military experience or experience with defense matters, the glaring incompetence of the ANC government is alarming and the ability of the ANC to coordinate south African affairs should be questioned.

Other Major indices that reflects worsening situation in the rainbow nation are;

4. Murder rates during apartheid peaked at 11,000 in the year 1990 however as of present, South Africa has one of the highest murder rate in the world with Cape Town alone having 68.28 homicides per 100,000 people as of 2019 and 19,846 in the entire country according to Statista.
Murder rates has been on the steady increase from the year 1997.

5. The country has one of the highest rates of rape in the world, with some 65,000 rapes and other sexual assaults reported for the year ending in March 2012, or 127.6 per 100,000 people in the country according to the South African Police. These highs had never been reached at the apartheid era and obviously show the high rate of crime condoned by the ANC government.

6. "From 1994 to 2020 South Africa experienced 13,000 farm attacks, during which 2,000 commercial farmers were killed besides others who were injured or wounded. Since 2014 black farmers have also become victims. Residents of farms have a four times greater chance to be murdered than the average South African, and the elderly constitute a large proportion of victims. These crimes against farmers and their black or white staff have gained notable press, given the country's past racial tensions." Fun Fact? This was unpopular and unheard of during the aprtheid era.

7. "Outbreaks of xenophobic violence have become a regular occurrence in South Africa. These acts are perpetrated by the poorest of the poor, and have been ascribed to a combination of socio-economic issues relating to immigration, migration, lack of economic opportunity, and the ineffective administration of these. The 2019 spate of attacks in Gauteng were in part ascribed to premeditated criminality. Hundreds of foreigners had to seek safety, while twelve people were killed and dozens of small businesses belonging to foreigners were looted or completely destroyed." Again, nobody heard of xenophobia during the apartheid.

8. In as much as the ANC government claims to ensure the black people in south Africa achieve first citizens status, however, according to a 2017 government audit, 72 percent of the nation's private farmland is owned by white people, who make up 9 percent of the population. This shows how the "remnants" of the apartheid era is still holding and funding the economy of the country.

My point and Summary.

In as much i hate typing on the internet to debate something irrelevant to me as a Nigerian, the facts must be set. What facts? The facts that South Africa without apartheid or white leadership was gonna be an oversized Malawi. The industrialization and technological advancement won't have been there. Human advancement shouldn't be measured by the volume of melanin they say, but South Africa has proven to be unable to take control of their fate and write their destiny under the ANC leadership.

Today, majority of the black South Africans make up the 33.56 percent unemployment rate and people living below the poverty line, while their natural resources are plundered by white owned diamond mining multi nationals. According to world bank in the year 2022, South Africa is still the world most unequal country . Nothing has changed. It only got worse.

Below are pics on the land ownership and murder rate in SA

QuietMynd:
You re not south african, u don live there during those times.
Stop praising those times, only black SANs themselves can tells if those time actually better the country not u or whatever u read on the internet.

Why can the Black South Africans talk about the era but whites can't have a say? Never in history has a civilization, country or nation be beneficial to the entire population. There will always be resentment from some quarters. Most white south africans benefited from the era but the blacks didn't. But did the country have a massive growth in terms of infrastructure development, advancement in science and military weaponry? Yes. Something that has been unmatched today. We've seen budgetary cuts, high rape rates, massive inequality, high HIV rates till this day. I'm not saying the apartheid era doesn't have its ills and negatives but South Africa was better managed than today.

Fynline:
Sourced from DNN for sure!

Negative

Lurker4Long:
You have no idea what you're talking about. From 1985 when Chase Manhattan refused to roll over Apartheid SA's debt, the writing was on the wall. More US and European banks followed, culminating in a debt default by 1987. The US Congress passed sanctions, overriding Reagan's veto.
The country had spent so much on the military, it was bankrupt.
Why do you think SA big business revolted, went to meet and talk to the ANC?
Coffers bare and a worsening internal unrest meant no future for anybody, white and black.

White South Africa has been the biggest economic beneficiary of democracy.

If one has been imbibing propaganda from apartheid apologists, racists and inferiority "complexed", one of course would not know any of this!

I understand your points. However, like every other situations in human history, there are both positives and negatives. Without apartheid or white leadership, South Africa won't have been where it is today. Apartheid South Africa is responsible for the infrastructure development and advancement of South Africa. The negative of the era was the alienation and abuses against the native/indigenous black people.

That was South Africa's golden era.

QuietMynd:
Yea you re somehow right, if ur lineage was living during that time, ur black a@@ won't want to near the geographical location called SA.
And the country wasn't great back then, wat is great in a country that takes cater for 10% of the population and marginalize almost 90% of the population.

"if I was white south African"

Odunayaw:
We have?

Someone in the system told me so

Bacteria8:
Wrong

* Right (Republicans) are the ones who banned slavery. Abraham Lincoln did that. And he was a Republican President. Democrats all wanted Slavery and slave trade to continue. They even went to war (american civil war) over it.

*Ending colonialism wasn't a right or left thing. It was an American foreign policy body language across both political divide. Colonialism as it were at that only favors the European economy because European took over the world much faster while America was still under Great Britain's rule. Hence, America didn't really want colonialism to end, they just want the status quo to change so it can favor them too.

Through out almost 100 years that Apartheid existed, several American government both right and left came on board and did nothing. Apartheid died because it was time. Too much pressure from all around Africa and individual voices of reason across the world defeated apartheid. Left to the the Americans, apartheid would probably still be much around. And most of the SA folks on this thread would probably still be wearing knickers all about and shout "yes masa" to their white lords.

If I was white and South African, I'll never had let apartheid to have ended because South Africa was a greater country under apartheid than presently.

kabe1:
The Nigerian Air Force has shown no interest in this Aircraft, it's just fan-boys like us that keep wishing we get them.

However I really doubt NAF would purchase this any fighter jets soon, especially with the purchase of the M-346F/A.

I'm glad that we have shown interest in SAM systems like the HQ-9. Will be great if we take investment in air defence systems seriously.

jl115:
The G6-52 is still the longest firing 155mm howitzer in the world it set a new record just before covid hit i believe

What is the range tho? The pzh 2000 actually hit 67km last year with RAP. The Chinese claims the plz 45 has an RAP ammunition with a 100km range even though it is debatable.

kabe1:
The J-10C is such an excellent aircraft, if only we could channel some of that $6 Billion to China for this Aircraft.

Please, we need this!