₦airaland Forum

Born2Breed:
[s]You are a basket case. A confused and silly thing.[/s]

Is that all? LMAO

Sorry oo! My intention was not to hurt your feeling.

Anyways, the key takeaway here is that you must tell your kids the truth from day-1 so they’re not broken if they find out from outside.

Peace.

OneNigerian:
[s]The Binis wear wrappers like ancient Egyptians. They came from the Egypt and settled with people who were already there thousands of years before the mega lake Chad started to dry up. That started 8,000 years ago and they maintained contact for a while before being cut off or they choose to cut themselves off as our ancestors preferred the jungle. Look at the design of ancient Bini city? The jungle was encouraged to grow around the city walls. Conservative and care for environment. It would take Europeans 2500 years to become that advanced to understand global warming and the planting of trees to protect the environment. The Binis came with prio knowledge. Do a random samples dna tests of edo and delta state people choose 50 from each village and cities and the blood will settle your lack of knowledge. Quoting propaganda written materials without any historical facts or even a single Bini bronze to support the following works of fiction that you mentioned. I did a dna test to verify the history my father thought me before I even left primary school. He said we are so old as a people we once shared our lands with black giants. There is a story of Oba Ozoluwa wiping off the last of the 15 to 30 feet tall giants. In ancient Egypt temples still have pictures of giants taller than giraffes � doing their daily chores along side normal sized humans when the region was jungle and savanna before the desert forced our direct ancestors to abandon ancient Egypt leaving now it in the hands of other members of our families left behind. What is in the Yoruba blood if you did dna tests? Possible links that both you and the Igbos were once one people who lived in the lands that became Nigeria 25,000 years ago making the Igbos even older than the Yoruba. What legendary civilisations of man would your blood reveal? Except if you were privileged to have had Bini blood injected into it a thousand years ago or lesser before the white men came. The Yoruba were never strong enough to conquer tiny Dahomey (Benin republic) which was part of the Bini empire ruled by Bini people at one point who enjoy enslaving Yoruba people repeatedly. How come you rule over Bini? Is that madness or genetic stupidity? Is it contagious?[/s]

I hear you, Mr Binis came from Egypt.

I hope someday you will stop embarrassing yourself.

UGBE634:
When you seem successful with one claim with one or two binis agreeing with you no matter how absurd it may seem you move on to the next claim

Focusing on the word claim, could you point out one of the points I’ve educated you on which is a mere claim of mine rather than the submission of historical scholarship on the basis on extant, classical received Benin traditions from Benin?

After that, do the same check for your submissions and revert here to tell us what you find—let me know who is clinging to a personal wishful thinking & sourceless latter-day poor fraudulent revision.

Why is the Ogiso Edo and not Ife.

Lol. First of all, “ogiso” is not a given/personal name.

Rather, it is the Edo word for the office held by these monarchs who first ruled the Edos.

The discussion here is NOT about the word with which the autochthonous people (the Binis) described that office in their own language.

Neither is the discussion here about the mythologies woven around the holders of the office (at least the 1st of them) by the Bini people perhaps due to their leadership shrewdness — e.g., Sky descent.

Rather, this discussion is about the place from where the initiative for that monarchy was born/despatched.

The earliest Benin traditions (undisputed by modern historical scrutiny) answers that the place is IFE.

———————
Now to the name itself, having clarified that the Edos may call such temporary representatives by any title they wish in their language; or weave any mythology they wish around them:

In the worldview of the Yorubas, a person assigned to carry out tasks in a foreign land (in the interest of the Ife-Yoruba court or any Yoruba court for that matter) is simply a “chief” (i.e. olóyè/onóyè) of the court.

The title applied by the native Edos to these Yorubas envoys (the first and by extension all three of them) who have been assigned the task of introducing some monarchy form to the natives is ogiso.

This word comes from a phrase which itself is rooted in two basic words. One of these two Edo words viz. ogie is recognizably cognate with Yoruba, Igbo, etc.

The second of these two words is iso which unlike th first may have evolved way, way earlier from a basic common etymon in the proto-YEAI cluster; or perhaps even from the proto-Benue-Kwa cluster.

It is important to add that this word developed into a mythical attribute from a praise attribute; just as the Omonoba Akenzua II (reign: 1933 - 1978) also has the praise name: “Akenzua n-iso n-orhọ”.

The Edo word “ogie”, as noted above, is cognate with some other words in the proto-YEAI language cluster.

In other words, it evolved (as others) from a common etymon in that cluster. Some of the cognates in their respective languages are:

Oche (Idoma), Orodje (Urhobo/Isoko) Onóyè (Yoruba), Ovie (Urhobo/Isoko), Ogie (Edo), Oje (Esan), Eje (Proto-Igboid), Eze (Modern Igbo).

It is noteworthy to state that these words technically speaking is not strictly equivalent to the word “king”, although it has evolved in modern times to mean one and the same thing.

For a fact, these words originally signifies the following linguistically:

“The Honorable”, “Office-Holder”, “Ruler”, “Chief”, etc.

From the standpoint of historical studies/research as well, kingship (in its actual sense) has not developed in the Edo forest prior to/during the Ogiso period.

As such, the pre-existing Edo word, “ogie”, could not have had a meaning equivalent to such concept. This is not to say some form of political organization would not have been in existence amongst them.

These and several other evidences must in fact have informed Bondarenko’s consistent clarification of the Ogisos as no monarchs in the strict sense of the word, but actually some supreme supra-chiefdom rulers.

1. Because there are several folklores concerning the Ogisos in Ugo about Peace, honesty, natural Justice,and so on and not one about Ife.

2.There are descendants of Ogiso in Benin and not Ife, They are one of the 74 families in Benin, they are pure Edos by Blood and they trace their Origin to Ugo and not Ife.

3. The Oba placed himself as a continuation of the Ogisos so as to pass the Message to the Binis or Edos that he is pure Edo by Blood in other to Garner and gather their support against the Ogieamien who gives them tough time at every ascension with the claim that they are foreigners.

4. To discontinue his relationship with the yorubas, because he knows by saying he is a continuation of the Ogiso, he would alter his link with Yoruba and Ife after the bad bromance the father had with western region before 1963 which he was already a grown man and an adult with Education to see these things.
We can see from the following point that Oba Eredieuwa is aware that the Ogiso is stuck in Antiquity and the story Egharevba collated from his father's court is not really a testament of the realities on ground.

1. You’ve been confidently chatting sh*t all along.

First of all, if by “Ugo” you’re trying desperately to give the impression that the Ogiso monarch was first despatched to Benin town from Ugo, then you lie as there is no objective reference for that anywhere. Not even the recent fraudulent revisions say that.

But if by “Ugo”, you mean that the original site of the Ogisos’ court is situated within Ugo (rather than within Benin town itself), then you lie again — even though it makes no difference to the point my point wherever they ruled from.

The late Dr. R. E. Bradbury (who during his days was the outstanding authority on Benin and the Edo speaking peoples — with years of intensive anthropological field work in Benin, and contributing a volume on the Benin Kingdom to the Ethnographic survey of Africa) already notes in his 1957 publication
that the original site of the Ogiso court was within the present limit of Benin “town”.

All in all, the earliest Benin traditions (undisputed by modern historical scrutiny) notes that the first ‘Benin’ monarchs who came to be mythologized as Ogiso are actually emissaries from Ife (the first 3 of them) prior to when the Binis continued the political organization by themselves also as a non-dynastic “monarchy”. See: Egharevba (1936) p.7; Bondarenko & Roese (2001), p.10; Bondarenko & Roese (2015), p.54.

2. Could you explain how the descendants of the Bini Ogisos should have been in Ife (and not Benin) based off of the fact that the system was launched to Benin from there?

Moreover, you bungled again with your “Ugo” fraud. The Ogiso ‘dynasty’ (so-called) was not a dynasty in the sense of the word. In other word, it was never a father to son affair. You never knew this. ~ See: Ibid.

Moreover, the Ife Yoruba-line is said to have ended at the time of the third of them at a time when Ife was convinced that the autochthonous people (the Binis) are now capable of running such system effectively by themselves. I have cited the evidence for this.

By the way, I noticed you never cited a single material, not even a toilet roll. You mean we must agree with anything you type because your moniker is UGBE? LMAO!

3. Of course, I am aware that Omonoba Erediauwa (in whose time Edo history went fraudulent) was trying to miraculously convert himself to patrilineal Bini by coming up with the fraud that Oranmiyan is descended from Ogiso Owodo.

I am aware that he is patrilineally Yoruba. I am aware that he was just being fraudulent. I have repeated this with historical evidence since ‘forever’. You’re not the first to tell me that.

However, no one historian ever said that Owodo is an Ife-Yoruba man — literally no historian said that.

Instead, what historians find on the basis of the early Benin traditions is that:

The first chief (mythologized as “ogiso” by the natives) was sent from Ife. The third was the last in the Ife line. The Edo continued the system themselves. The system was not a father to son affair.

4. On the basis of the foregoing point 3 your logic that the Ogiso was initiated by the Edo is embarrassingly flawed.

The historical sources are clear, the monarchy began as a internal Edo affair only on the fourth reign.

As such, Erediauwa’s fraud is consistent while also not disrupting a thing from the early Benin traditions that Ife is the home of only the first 3 of the “Honorables”.

In other words, Ife is the origin of the system even as per the Benin traditions which has remained logical in the light of thorough scrutiny by the historians.

Peace!

Cc: christistruth00, nisai

An Interesting Post:
Lieutenant John King, R.N. who visited the Benin area sometimes between 1815 and 1820 has the following to say about the actual crown (i.e. the primary/ initial crown of the Itsekiri nation):

“At Warri "the actual crown of the sovereign is a sort of large cap in the shape of a cone three feet high, covered with coral beads and with a couple of birds' heads on top" (King).”.

~ John King, c.1817, cited in H. L. Roth, Great Benin: Its Customs, Arts, and Horrors, (1903), p.27, note 1.

This description of the primary Itsekiri crown (from J. King’s eyewitness observation) matches nothing else but the signature Yoruba crowns popularly known as: Adé-Ńlá which is said by the Yoruba kingdoms holding them to be the actual crown (design) with which the princes from IFE originally left Ife to establish their own respective kingdom.

These Ade-Nla crowns are usually adorned only once during sacred installation rites by the kingdoms who hold such jewels. An example of what Ade-Nla crowns look like is as attached below.


The logical implication of the foregoing information is that this primary (or “actual”) crown of the Itsekiris is the actual crown (among his royal share) with which Ginuwa left the Benin palace in the mid/late-1400.

It then follows logically that the Benin palace itself is a Yoruba place (in a foreign land) as have been noted by the early received Benin traditions as well as the Yoruba traditions which notes that Ade-Nla was given to the Ife princes as a part of their royal gifts.

This explains, more clearly, why his (Ginuwa’s) group was accepted by the autochthonous group of the land without any resistance — i.e. an Ade-Nla crown which established his legitimacy as a “son” of Oodua.

History proves itself again for the umpteenth time.

Cc: nisai, Nisiw365, rhektor, KingOdart, macof

Having pointed out that the 1970s Izoduwa joke has been debunked by professional/academic historians; what then do historical studies say today on the roots of Oduduwa in the light of the earliest traditions and other source evidence??

First of all, the archaeological survey of the Ife country shows that it lies in a high bowl surrounded by hills which all form a kind of watershed for streams flowing out through gaps between the hills.

Paul Ozanne’s 1969 report of his archaeological survey finds that many settlements were already on ground in the Ife country by circa 350 BCE.

These settlements increased in number and size over time, and by 900AD when great changes began in the area, these settlements must have been up to the 13 whose names have been passed via the traditions to the present century.

These settlements include: Iloromu (which lay along a stretch of today’s Ife-Ilesha road); Ideta (which lay along today’s road to Mokuro); Odin (which lay along the modern road to Ifewara); Iwinrin (which covered the area of today’s Koiwo and Oronno quarters); Omologun (which covered part of what is now OAU campus); Imojubi (which lay along today’s Ife-Ondo road); Ijugbe; Oke-Oja; & Iraye (which all lay west of the area now known as Modakeke). The sites of Ido; Oke-Awo; Iloran and Parakin are difficult to asserctain.

The other settlements whose names have also come down to us through the traditions are: Ilare, Esije, Ita-Yemoo, Orun-Oba-Ado (the settlement named after the burial site), Ilara, and Idio.

As already rightly pointed out to you by @macof, king Oduduwa of Ife (even before becoming the king of the Ife country) was first widely known (and passed down till date by the early traditions) as Ọṣìn-Ọrà — i.e., the Head of Ora community.

Ọrà (or aptly: Òkè-Ọrà — that is, Ọrà-Hill) was an old hilly settlement in the Ife country, particularly sited in the Iloromu part of the country.

The traditions recall that it was in this hilly community of Ọrà that Oduduwa’s homeland is prior to relocating down into the Omologun settlement of the “Ife bowl”.

After the long civil-conflict between the autochthones of the “Ife-bowl” and the new groups who continued to join them (a conflict which appears from a careful analysis of the traditions to have preceded Oduduwa himself), he moved his base from the partly ruined compounds of Omologun to Idio settlement on a low hill which gently slopes in all directions.

It was from this new base (at Idio) that the new task of reorganizing the newly emerging city of Ile-Ife began. Ife thus became one single kingdom in contrast to the former confederation of kingdoms of the pre-existing settlements. The project of building a protective wall around the city was also launched.

As @macof as advised, go to Ife if you’re curious and interview spokespersons of his family one of whom is the Obadio of Ife, Chief Ifaloba Ifaranti whose picture is attached below. His family members are the royal princes and princesses of Ile-Ife today.

Peace:

PS: Out of “curiosity”, could you please tell me the name of the father of the so-called Pa IDU? Lol.

Cc: nisai, Nisiw365, rhektor, KingOdart

@BronRicch aka @Born2Breed:

You appear to me to be one of the remaining willfully ignorant folks in the world.

Will you not wake up and smell the coffee to realize (as already found by historians the word over) that the king Oduduwa of Ife:

(1) Has nothing to do in terms of descent with Binis— but somewhat the other war round, since Benin obas (not the autochthonous Binis themselves) descended from him?

(2) Flourished circa 1000AD at the outset of the Ogiso system (and not at its close as fabricated in the 1970s by the incoming Erediauwa regime), and as such can not possibly have anything to do with Ogiso Owodo (the last of the Ogisos) in terms of descent from him?

It is high time you emancipated yourself from mental slavery by leveraging on knowledge. Prior to the 1970s, Oduduwa remains (in the Bini worldview) a non-Edo outside overlord to whom the foundation of Benin monarchies are indebted.

The attached is an apt summary of the facts by a Bini professional academic historian.

J. Eboreime, “Oral Traditions and the Prehistory of the Edo-Speaking People of Benin” in Blench and Spriggs, Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2004, p. 314.

Cc: rhektor, nisai, Nisiw365, KingOdart, macof

UGBE634:
[s]you are not a complete historian, does any of your AcAdEmIc knows the way to Udo, Ugo and Urhonigbe, did they go there. You can't completely claim the greatness of Bini without claiming the Ogisos you know that's why you are jittery and still grandstanding even when the Odds are against you. Those yoruboid binis can't speak for the populace . Even the story they gave out about their origin is full of loopholes. Will they be speaking for the pure binis who are the majority. Even if you go to Udo and Urhonigbe, they will point you to Ugo as the source of the Ogisos, there are folklores which revolves around Ugo concerning the Ogisos about laws of natural justice, peace, honesty, and so on,but there is none about Ife . This is not my stand, it is the general Bini stand against the account received by Egharevba in or at Akenzua's court. I have given you the general Bini account as it is you can go Bleep yourself
At least the readers on here who are sensible have seen my argument and know which fact to pick and the Junk to discard.
Even if the body like that of Esau if it is not the voice of Esau then it is not Esau don't be deceived my sister.[/s]

The earliest traditions of Binis themselves concerning the origin of the Ogiso monarchy (prior to your 21st century laughable sourceless revision) goes thus:

“Many, many years ago, Odua (Oduduwa) of Uhe (Ile-Ife) the father and the progenitor of the Yoruba kings sent his eldest son Obagodo who took the title of Ogiso with a large retinue all the way from Uhe to found a Kingdom in this part of the world.”

Chief J.U. Egharevba, “A Short History of Benin,” (1936), p.7.

What conclusions have the leading authorities on pre-colonial Benin reached with respect to this origin tradition of the Ogiso monarchy?

Having combed through & scrutinized the early Benin traditions of origins of the Ogiso monarchy, scholars have reached the following conclusion (on the basis of anthropological field work on Benin and the Edos):

“The third Ogiso became the last in their Yoruba, Ife line. He returned to Ife, but by that time the very institution of the supreme supra-chiefdom ruler had already been established firmly enough in Benin.”

D. M. Bondarenko and P. M. Roese, “Ancient Benin: Where Did the First Monarchs Come From?,” (2001), p.10.

In essence, you and your co-revisionsists without any source whatsoever are unfortunately inconsequential.

Peace!

Abohboy:
[s]Your source is dated to the creation of Ibadan his source is dated to at least 200 years before the creation of Ibadan and yes the Bini did rule over parts of Ondo State and eastern parts of Lagos that is an indisputable fact[/s]

Kudos to you for trying hard to want to make sense.

However, [make I no talk ]

I would break things down a little bit for you, and you will understand. Amen!

(1) His first screenshot was from a book published in 1880.

(2) His second screenshot is from an article published in 1973.
———————
Having educated you on the dates, it doesn’t matter if it was written/published by Adam & Eve themselves.

Regarding His First Screenshot:
The crux is that, the content of the material shows a Bini man (Ourano) who said his oba is the sTrOnGeSt.

If this proves to be factual to you, then my own father is the strongest father in the world. Don’t you agree?

Regarding His Second Screenshot:
The crux here is that the author was referring to a Bini man (Egharevba) who gave that opinion. Hence the 70 which appears as a footnote label after the sentence.

If this proves to be factual to you, then my ancestors was responsible for hijacking the Northern Edo lands from the oba of Benin. Don’t you agree?

Breaking News:
Saying Benin once ruled some piece of land in Lagos, or that Benin once ruled some places in Ondo based on statements emanating from the Binis themselves is about the dumbest thing anyone could come up with as evidence.

Peace!

gregyboy:
Says who

Your screenshot is an opinion of a certain Ryder from the year 1965.

Guess what has happened between 1965 and 2021 in the field of historical scholarship of African history.

The field of historical scholarship of African history has unanimously debunked that opinion from Ryder.

See for example:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A summary of this unanimous conclusion of scholars is aptly put in a 2016 publication as attached below in the 2nd screenshot below:

Cheers!

Cc: Nisiw365

PS:
Throughout the centuries of interaction between the Europeans and the southern “Nigeria” area, including Benin kingdom, there is no single record of a name of any Benin king.

Shall we then be foolish like you to pretend to reach the inane conclusion that Benin began to have kings on recently — or that Benin kings (if they exist) never had names?

Similarly, throughout the centuries of the interactions with the Europeans, there is no single record of any relationship between Benin and Onitsha.

Shall we then be foolish like you to pretend to reach the inane conclusion that Benin had no relationship with Onitsha until in recent times?
—————————

You are actually to foolish to be ignored because to ignore has a specially foolish meaning to you. To you it means that you’re stating FaCtS. Joker.

Moreover, you are also resolutely fraudulent because this very crap you heaped above have been even to your satisfaction on a different thread.

The Devastating Refutation:
Eyewitness testimony/writings from the late-1400s & early-1500s which references the monarch of the Ife kingdom & his suzerainty over Benin kingdom exist.

NB: Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.

This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.

In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language].

The symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample.

This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife.

In addition to this significant fact, the debate over the word “east” was subsequently quelled by the fact that from Atakpame (in present-day Togo) to the kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria), from Èkó (next to the Atlantic Ocean) to Ọ̀yọ́-Ilé (not far from the Niger River) Ife is known by the interesting epithet: Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá — i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”.

For some written references to the widespread usage of this epithet (in reference to Ife) among the natives of this region of West Africa, please refer to:

(A) Rev. D. Hinderer, “Diary Impression,” June 4, 1851, Ibadan, C.M.S.

(B) R. Horton (1979), p. 85., citing B. Maupoil (1943), A. Akinjogbin (1967:41-43), R. Smith (1969:31), as well as A. Obayemi (1976:206).

This reverential (rather than literal) epithet of Ife informed the literalist Europeans’ writings whose source(s) are Benin spokespersons of their king.

Hence the appearance of the word “east” in the early European writings in reference to the kingdom of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni (who is transliterated in the early writings as “Hooguanee”, “Ogané”, etc.).

Side Note: Binis, till today, still sometimes refer to the Ooni as Oghene. Refer to the entry “ɔɣɛnɛ” (i.e. “ọghẹnẹ”) in Hans Melzian’s “A Concise Dictionary of the Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” where its second definition is given as: “Bini name for the ↄni at Ile Ife”

Moreover, another piece of historical evidence which quelled the academic debate on the word “east” (as is seen in the early writings in reference to this overlord) are early maps.

There are maps (e.g. from the early 1500s) which show the phrase Dominion of the Orguene annotated across the western half of today’s Nigeria.

These historical information leaves anyone (not only the historians) with the only logical conclusion that the appearance of the word “east” in those early writings is of course not literal.

In conclusion, contrary to your ignorant assumption, there are writings from the early 1500s (on the basis of interviews of Bini representatives in the late 1400s) which references the king of Ife & his overlordship on Benin kingdom and other places.

Apart from early writings, there are other types of historical evidence which also establish clearly that there exist a classic (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

These other type of historical evidence which I come to here are classical artifacts from the hard science of archaeology. One crucial examples in this regard is discussed below.

The artifact shown in this link is the image of an Ooni of Ife. ~ S. P. Blier, “Art in Ancient Ife,” 2012, Figure 17.

The Ife naturalism of this artifact, its facial striations, as well as its classical Ife ceremonial costume and the pair of chest ornament help art historians (as well as Benin chroniclers alike) with identifying this image as an Ooni of Ife.

What is very, very crucial here is that this artifact was found in the archaeological deposits of Benin. To be more precise, it was excavated from the royal palace of Benin kingdom.

Furthermore, the production date of this artifact has now been established by science. This artifact is dated, by thermoluminescence technique, to the year 1420 [± 60 years].

~ Calvocoressi & David, “A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa,” 1979, p. 19.

For more pictorial angles (and details) regarding this particular artifact, please refer to:

(A) W. Fagg, “A Bronze Figure in Ife Style at Benin,” British Museum, June 1950, Plate Fa, Fb, Fc

(B) F. Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture,” McGraw-Hill, 1967, Figure 89.

(C) C. Adepegba, “The Descent from Oduduwa,” 1986, Plate 4.

In other words, a more-than 500-year-old ‘bronze’ cast of an Ooni Ife was discovered in the (archaeological deposits of the) palace of Benin kingdom.

In conclusion, it thus becomes clear that there exists a classical (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

Again, this conclusion which I have inevitably reached is not mine. This is simply the conclusion of historical scholarship. This can be seen in the following works:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A beautiful summary of this conclusion of scholars of
African history (some of whose names and works are listed above) is shown in the page below from Adam Knobler (2016), p.47.

Peace!

Cc: nisai

UGBE634:
When I said my father I was not literal, Ogiso in its entirety is an Edo affair and has nothing to do with Ife or yoruba, If Egharevba would want tale of the Ogiso account, who would he have gone to, Is it not the palace which seems to have some yoruboid trait, did he go to Ugo. Eghaveravba himself is with some yoruboid trait.
The first Ogiso is from Ugo, the most ancient town of all Bini towns, Igodo is not Obagodo and Oba must have been placed as a prefix because the palace was used with the word Oba as king

I respect your wish (that Ogiso should not be from Ife). However, it is unfortunate that the earliest traditions of Benin disagree with you. Not only that, historical studies (and relevant corroborating evidence) agrees with the earliest Benin traditions, and disagrees with you.

The truth is on one side, you and your emotional wish are on another side. Life happens.

[s]the early tradition which must have come from the palace is trash talk

Is it true just because the early Benin traditions said it?[/s]

I am afraid you are the trash here. Again the early Benin traditions is true because of at least two reasons, it is the earliest of its kind, it has also withstood the scrutiny and criticisms from those whose job is history — the academic and professional historians. What’s your job again?

Academic historians are not always right, they are humans too and they are fallible

Except that your criticism is lame — they must be wrong on this matter. Why? Because they are human. LMAO!

And who is UGBE634? A ghost. Wake up “sweety,” reality doesn’t always gel with your fantasies. Don’t be a sore loser.

I would take that as a palace source and not the source of the aborigines. But it is what it is.

You mean that the royal family is Yoruba rather than aboriginal Edos?

IF yes, then note that the palace story tellers do not have to members of the Oba’s family — they’re most certainly not. And if they are (and you insist they are lying conquerors), then they would have no need to link the Ogiso to Ife so as to present a full picture of conquest.

You appear to be on a lose-lose spree. Wake up from your delusions chid, and make up your mind on the basis of the evidence before you.

There is no dissimiar comparison here, the comparisons are intact, it is about you switching off your brain when it concerns dominance of your tribe which are not true and obviously putting it off when it concerns other tribe even when the Odds are against you. Dernett have no Axe no grind with the Yoruba's and couldn't have written that in favor of the binis. Now we know whose oral traditions is faulty

Well, no one ever implied that Dennett has any axe to grind in support of Benin against the Yorubas.

The simple point being made is that the attribution is necessarily lone, spurious, and mistaken considering the vast corpus of Oyo traditions on tribute payment by Oyo — recorded before Dennett by Johnson, and also recorded before Johnson by A. Dalzel (1793).

This is similar to how Roupell wasn’t necessarily lying when he said he was informed by the palace tha Benin never casted a bronze before the Europeans’ advent.

The attribution is spurious and necessarily mistaken because it is not corroborated, and in fact debunked by the overwhelming accounts and evidence.

It does not change a thing, earliest does not mean logically right and still won't mean. If it is not the voice of Esau then it is not Esau

Yes earliest which not corroborated (or which is actually de-corroborated by other independent evidences and studies) is not right.

However, the earliest which is actually corroborated by other independent evidences and studies (just as the early Benin traditions of Ogisos from Ife) is in fact logically right.

No one has argued that but that some of their clans have link with and are associated with Binis is also not in contention

Doesn’t change the early Benin traditions (which is corroborated by other evidence and historical studies) which states that the Ogiso monarchy was initiated from Ife is logically right. Or does it change that?

Again dont you have a brain, does Ikwerre attribution to Bini make them Binis, the fact some Binis in the past with yoruboid link attributed the Ogisos to the Yoruba does not make their claims true can't you see. Are you so dumb to see.
I would rather hold on to the fact that Oyo's oral historical account is faulty than disregarding dernett's view as Dernett had no Axe to grind with you guys and wrote his down rather down historical tales which can be distorted over time.

The royal court of Oba Akenzua II — and many Benin old people — whom Egharevba lists as informants are the Binis with Yorubaour links. You better don’t enter full-blown delusion out of low self esteem.

The earliest account of Benin traditions from Benin has it that the Ogiso monarchy was initiated from Ife. This is corroborated by other evidence and studies. Wake up to the real word, UGBE.

Well, history isn’t as twisted as your mind. No historian would give prominent to a single-line over and above a corpus which is earlier. Also, Archibald Dalzel (1793) an eyewitness account had earlier written on the very same subject — Oyo’s tributes. Johnson was not the earliest.

it is not there are about thirty one Ogisos and Egharevba only collated the Ones he was told and his knowledge was definitely limited

Hmmm! Okay, I think I believe UGBE-the nobody because his name is UGBE. Lol.

And I disbelieve the Benin sources of olden times as passed down via their the works of Egharevba. /s

Even you yourself must be wondering why any sane person would believe you and not the early sources of Benin traditions.

Regardless of these overwhelming truth on your own traditions (despite it being shocking and saddening) rise above low-self esteem and move now.

Peace!

I’m sorry that your feelings was hurt by the truth, but that was not the intention. Apologies accepted?

itsene:
All your references are books and papers written about " Benin country, Benin customs, Benin this and that etc". What does that tell you?

It tells me that works (written by some Europeans) and whose title contains the word “Benin” also attests to the view that the Itsekiris are part of the Yoruba group as received from the Itsekiris themselves.

It also tells me that a work (written by a Bini historian) and whose title contains the word “Benin” also attests to the fact that Binis are fraudsters vis-a-vis their attempt to magically transform Oodua into a Edo man, in the 1970s.

Having said that, I would have expected that a honest Benin source would sound convincing to you, but it appears that nothing convinces a typical Bini person except the very propaganda with which they’ve been force-fed from childhood.

Anyways, since what you’re dying to trust is a source whose title shows the word “Yoruba,” “Ife,” “Oyo,” etc., (instead of one whose title shows the word “Benin,” etc.), let’s see how far you can go with that pretense.

Where are the books on Yoruba people and their land? That's where you should be quoting from, my friend.

Okay, let’s now quote something from a book oN YoRuBa pEoPLe aNd tHEiR LaNd.

“It is however abundantly evident that Benin and Dahome are integral parts of Yoruba, somewhat differing in language, but identical in manners, customs, and religion”

~ Richard F. Burton, “Abeokuta and the Camaroons Mountains,” (1863), p.222.

Don’t go yet, there is actually one more here to serve:

“In Benin coronation rituals, as well as annual royal ceremonies, the king’s cheeks are painted with chalk lines to show what are said to be Yoruba facial patterns, then these marks are effaced.”

~ Suzanne P. Blier, “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba,” (2015), p.247.

You must be so glad now. Let’s know what you think.

Awolowo's contribution to trying to disrupt traditional institution s is well known. That's a matter for another day.

LMAO!

Cite one historical evidence to support whatever crap you intend here whenever you get the chance. I look forward to it even though it may take you centuries.

Lest I forget, don’t give me a my-daddy-say or a my-mummy-say as historical evidence oo.

If anyone says they are not from Benin, fine. Just move on.

I can’t remember writing that comment to you.

By the way, why exactly are you mad that I corrected someone else’s misleading innuendo? I’m curious. You wished that I left him to peddle confusion?

There's a connection between Ife and Benin but " Yorubas" want a revised and incorrect mythological version.

Really, you probably read my earlier comment with your eyes closed.

Re-read that screenshot (from an academic historian of Bini origin) and revert back here to tell us who the liars are. LMAO! Accept history (and shun fabrications) even if history exposes you as very little.

Europeans didn't come to southern Nigeria in search of Yorubas or their great culture. That's why there are few books written. It was Benin they were interested in.

LMAO? The earliest publication featuring some of the peoples of the “Nigeria” region was in the year 1506.

Some of the first places visited by the first Europeans in the course of their exploration is Yorubaland by D. Pacheco Periera in the late 1400s.

Publications featuring Oyo’s imperial activities in the Dahomey region followed in the 1600s (among other places), Similar publications followed in the 1700s and so forth.

One interesting thing worth pointing out is that Binis often claim to have a gigantic ancient wall around its city — which was supposedly completely destroyed in the late 1800s by the British.

Well, the eyewitness account of the D. P. Pereira from his visit to Benin in the late 1400s/early 1500s says in unambiguous terms that Benin “has no walls” around it.

That is just a few years after “Ewuare” just passed.

As for people being buried in Ife, that was Olubuse's version straight out of Awolowo's Action Group' political playbook. Complete garbage.

“The head of the royal corpse was subsequently exhumed and taken to the royal ancestral grave at Ile-Ife; but this was done in every third reign.”

~ J. U. Egharevba, “Benin Law and Custom,” CMS Niger Press, Port Harcourt, 1946, p.72.

The quotation here comes from the most authoritative chronicler from Benin who goes by the name Olubuse, Awolowo, Action Group, Chief J. U. Egharevba — the Obakhavbaye of Benin kingdom.

Peace!

First of all, could you please separate my comments from yours to make reading easy for others who may be following this.

You may delete those parts of my comment which you do not feel the need to reply to.

Thanks.

UGBE634:
When I talked about my father here I was not literal I was talking about bini

Yes, it doesn’t matter. The essential point remains the same — that is, a Benin tradition about Benin is not true simply because it is a Benin tradition.

Rather, it is true because it is the earliest known Benin tradition about Benin and is not contradicted by the consensus of professional, academic historical studies (or some other evidence).

This is the case with the Benin traditions on the Ogiso monarchy which is not merely the earliest, but also corroborated by the conclusions of professional and academic historical studies.

As such, the Ogiso was initiated from Ife. So says the earliest and redoubtable Benin traditions on Ogiso.

What I referred to was that Johnson made many claims some of which you guys including referring to Ijebu as food for the deep.

Again, just as illustrated above, a tradition is not true just because it is the earliest. It must be the earliest and also be corroborated by the conclusion of academic study.

The conclusions from academic studies on the origin of the name “Ijebu” debunks your claim represented above from Johnson’s works.

Moreover, Johnson himself indicated that he couldn’t have obtain this specific information from the Ijebus as their country was not open to others [until later].

The account appears (from his wording) to have been obtained from the Owus who are the archenemies of the Ijebus as their ancestral homeland was sacked by a combined army of the Ifes and the Ijebus.

In sum, the same reasonable principle should apply consistently. A traditions is true because it is early and corroborated by historical studies and evidences.

Peace!

@UGBE634, you are yet to answer my question in red fonts below:

TAO11:
You had upheld the fact that there exists an ancient link between Ife and Benin,

However, at the very instant when I made you realize that academic and professional historians submitted that the link is actually one of Father-Ife & son-Benin (and not vice versa), you miraculously concluded that there was actually never any link between Ife & Benin in the ancient times. How miraculous & convenient?!

My humble advice is that you should accept whatever history throws at you regardless of how little it makes you feel, or how it bruises you. Such is life.

Having said that, you are yet to answer my foregoing humble question which you quoted which reads:

“Do you also want to be enlightened on each of the so-called 5 cLAiMs? — none of which is actually a cLAiM made/initiated by the Yorubas. Let me know what you think. Lol.”

Peace!

UGBE634:
It does not matter who said them, My father cannot tell me I am Yoruba because he is my father and I will take it, If it does not resonate with reality, then it is scam and his knowledge is limited, him been more ancient does not count as anything,

That’s probably why your father never said you’re Yorùbá, or did he? Lol.

In the case of the Ogisos on the other hand, the early Benin traditions says what is says that the Ogiso was initiated from Ife.

Is it true just because the early Benin traditions said it?

No! It is true for other reasons. Academic historians have examined this early traditions and have reached the conclusion that it is in line with the historical reality of the kingdom, region, and time.

Do you catch the difference now? Yes I agree that this facts may come across as shocking (or even troubling) for you because you’ve never taken your time to see what your own sources say first-hand. It had to be a Yoruba pointing you to your own sources. I appreciate how that could frustrating.

But it is what it is.

Igbo Elites have made claims too which many Igbos have successfully debunked here and the Elites seem to be far too Educated

Now you’re making a poor comparison of dissimilar concepts, and I think you are intentional about it. Lol.

The word “earliest” (which is the term I’ve been using) is not one and the same as the word “elites”. Lol.

The fact that Igbo elites make a claim isn’t equivalent to such claim being rooted in the earliest sources. You know this.

And even if their earliest sources say it, it must still be vetted by academic/professional historical studies — these studies have submitted that Igbos evolved as an ethno-linguistic group in the regions of the Niger-Benue confluence (alongside Yoruba, Bini, et al.).

The trader the Alaafin met wrote what he told him regardless of his personage. He is a human being and wrote what he told him but you have also in your own word successfully debunked it.

Again, this is another dissimilar comparison. First of all Dennett’s one-line attribution to a certain Alaafin is not the earliest record of Oyo traditions on tribute payment. In contrast, Egharevba’s records of Benin traditions on Ogiso are the earliest on the subject.

Moreover, Dennett’s one-line attribution to the Alaafin is not corroborated by anything or any study (even as it suffers the disadvantage of not being the earliest Oyo source of the subject).

In contrast, the earliest Benin traditions on Ogiso is corroborated by historical studies (which I had cited) agrees with the early Benin traditions that Ogiso was despatched from Ife — it is also in harmony with the historical timelines.

The fact that Dennett made an attribution to a certain Alaafin doe not automatically make it a fact. Moreover, his one line attribution to the Alaafin is not the earliest record of Oyo’s traditions

In the absence of any corroborative evidence (and in the face of evidence to the contrary), Dennett’s remark was respectfully set aside (not just by me, but) by every scholar on the history of Oyo empire.

In contrast, the early Benin traditions on the Ogiso is corroborated left, right and center by other evidences. I believe the dissimilarity of your comparison should be palpably perceptible at this point.

To further drive home this point, a similar attribution was made by Captain Roupell to the effect that Benin never casted a bronze prior to the advent of 1500.

This one-line attribution to the Benin court by Roupell has similarly been respectfully set aside as a spurious one given that it is corroborated by nothing, as well as the fact that it is contrary to scientific finds.

Samuel Johnson you have also in your own word successfully debunked. I should not have taken you serious in the first place. You are a joke

Well, I am not aware of any page in S. Johnson’s work where he claimed to be debunking Dennett. I am also not aware of any of my comment where I noted that he had made such claim. Johnson’s work was written prior to when Dennett would write his article.

What I think you’re referring to here is the remarkable absence of any similar statement as Dennett’s in Johnson’s work which is rightly a vast corpus of Oyo traditions (among others) — including those dealing with Oyo’s tributes to other kingdoms.

Peace!

@UGBE634,

I await your reply to my comments wherein I refuted (in advance) your latest innuendos.

Do well to prove yourself consistent by addressing the crucial refutations.

Also, I cited the earliest records of Benin accounts on the origin of the Ogiso monarchy.

Stop tricking your mind to say I cited Yoruba account on Ogiso. Such trick on yourself leads to delusions.


Moreover, I await your answer to my question in the comment below:

PS:
Throughout the centuries of interaction between the Europeans and the southern “Nigeria” area, including Benin kingdom, there is no single record of a name of any Benin king.

Shall we then be foolish like you to pretend to reach the inane conclusion that Benin began to have kings on recently — or that Benin kings (if they exist) never had names?

Similarly, throughout the centuries of the interactions with the Europeans, there is no single record of any relationship between Benin and Onitsha.

Shall we then be foolish like you to pretend to reach the inane conclusion that Benin had no relationship with Onitsha until in recent times?
—————————

You are actually to foolish to be ignored because to ignore has a specially foolish meaning to you. To you it means that you’re stating FaCtS. Joker.

Moreover, you are also resolutely fraudulent because this very crap you heaped above have been even to your satisfaction on a different thread.

The Devastating Refutation:
Eyewitness testimony/writings from the late-1400s & early-1500s which references the monarch of the Ife kingdom & his suzerainty over Benin kingdom exist.

NB: Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.

This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.

In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language].

The symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample.

This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife.

In addition to this significant fact, the debate over the word “east” was subsequently quelled by the fact that from Atakpame (in present-day Togo) to the kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria), from Èkó (next to the Atlantic Ocean) to Ọ̀yọ́-Ilé (not far from the Niger River) Ife is known by the interesting epithet: Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá — i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”.

For some written references to the widespread usage of this epithet (in reference to Ife) among the natives of this region of West Africa, please refer to:

(A) Rev. D. Hinderer, “Diary Impression,” June 4, 1851, Ibadan, C.M.S.

(B) R. Horton (1979), p. 85., citing B. Maupoil (1943), A. Akinjogbin (1967:41-43), R. Smith (1969:31), as well as A. Obayemi (1976:206).

This reverential (rather than literal) epithet of Ife informed the literalist Europeans’ writings whose source(s) are Benin spokespersons of their king.

Hence the appearance of the word “east” in the early European writings in reference to the kingdom of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni (who is transliterated in the early writings as “Hooguanee”, “Ogané”, etc.).

Side Note: Binis, till today, still sometimes refer to the Ooni as Oghene. Refer to the entry “ɔɣɛnɛ” (i.e. “ọghẹnẹ”) in Hans Melzian’s “A Concise Dictionary of the Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” where its second definition is given as: “Bini name for the ↄni at Ile Ife”

Moreover, another piece of historical evidence which quelled the academic debate on the word “east” (as is seen in the early writings in reference to this overlord) are early maps.

There are maps (e.g. from the early 1500s) which show the phrase Dominion of the Orguene annotated across the western half of today’s Nigeria.

These historical information leaves anyone (not only the historians) with the only logical conclusion that the appearance of the word “east” in those early writings is of course not literal.

In conclusion, contrary to your ignorant assumption, there are writings from the early 1500s (on the basis of interviews of Bini representatives in the late 1400s) which references the king of Ife & his overlordship on Benin kingdom and other places.

Apart from early writings, there are other types of historical evidence which also establish clearly that there exist a classic (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

These other type of historical evidence which I come to here are classical artifacts from the hard science of archaeology. One crucial examples in this regard is discussed below.

The artifact shown in this link is the image of an Ooni of Ife. ~ S. P. Blier, “Art in Ancient Ife,” 2012, Figure 17.

The Ife naturalism of this artifact, its facial striations, as well as its classical Ife ceremonial costume and the pair of chest ornament help art historians (as well as Benin chroniclers alike) with identifying this image as an Ooni of Ife.

What is very, very crucial here is that this artifact was found in the archaeological deposits of Benin. To be more precise, it was excavated from the royal palace of Benin kingdom.

Furthermore, the production date of this artifact has now been established by science. This artifact is dated, by thermoluminescence technique, to the year 1420 [± 60 years].

~ Calvocoressi & David, “A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa,” 1979, p. 19.

For more pictorial angles (and details) regarding this particular artifact, please refer to:

(A) W. Fagg, “A Bronze Figure in Ife Style at Benin,” British Museum, June 1950, Plate Fa, Fb, Fc

(B) F. Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture,” McGraw-Hill, 1967, Figure 89.

(C) C. Adepegba, “The Descent from Oduduwa,” 1986, Plate 4.

In other words, a more-than 500-year-old ‘bronze’ cast of an Ooni Ife was discovered in the (archaeological deposits of the) palace of Benin kingdom.

In conclusion, it thus becomes clear that there exists a classical (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

Again, this conclusion which I have inevitably reached is not mine. This is simply the conclusion of historical scholarship. This can be seen in the following works:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A beautiful summary of this conclusion of scholars of
African history (some of whose names and works are listed above) is shown in the page below from Adam Knobler (2016), p.47.

Peace!

Cc: nisai, FairlyUSEDpussy, theTranslator. UGBE634

I chose to ignore the remaining crap you wrote and focus instead on the bolded crap.

OneNigerian:
I am an historian, I was amused at your story for I know that story well. In reality Bini bronzes and artefacts are much older than Ile Ife …

Would you provide evidence for the bolded crap?

Or should we believe you wrote a long piece of crap?

(1) ON ITSEKIRI:

To know who the Itsekiris are, ask them. What/who do the Itsekiris themselves say they are?

(A) The eyewitness accounts collected from them in the 1800s have them confirming to the Europeans that they are part and parcel of the larger Yoruba group:

(I) “Let me now refer briefly to the tribes that people this part of the world. First we come to the Jakris, who are connected in race and language with the Yoruba people, extending from the Mahin country on the west to the Forcados on the East, and inland about as far as Sapele.”

~ H. L. Gallwey, “Journeys in the Benin Country, West Africa,” The Geographical Journal, Vol. 1, No. 2 (Feb., 1893), p.127.

(II) “In this respect, however, the officials agree with the tradition of the people at Warri, the Jekries, who claim to come from the west.”

~ H. Ling Roth, “Great Benin: Its Customs, Arts and Horrors,” (1903), pp.8-9.

(B) This historical reality of the Itsekiris have remained the same since that period (i.e. the 1800s & prior) all the way to the present century, day & time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKLTie7LhKQ

(I) For example, at timestamp 7:01 to 7:13 of this video, Chief Robinson Ariyo (the Egogo of Warri kingdom) says and I quote:

“… Yoruba, a place where we are from … our roots.”


(II) At timestamp 8:22 to 8:27 of this video, Chief Isaac Jemide (the Oshodin of Warri kingdom) says:

“… we are a Yoruba people as such.”


(2) ON ODUDUWA:

First of all, there is no such historical personage called Izoduwa (Imadoduwa) etc. in Benin traditions.

The IzOdUwA narrative is a fabrication that was made up by some Binis in the 1970s. And it was first heard of by the typical Edo person during Omonoba Erediauwa’s coronation ceremony of 1978-9.

Academic/professional historians (NOT the Benin neighborhood story-tellers) all laugh at this fabrication for being a poor job. This scandal is known to experts. Benin elders also know it. See attached screenshot for one example.

The classical story of the Bini Ekeladerhan which was first collected in the year 1889 is clear that he lived the remaining part of his life in his newly founded kingdom, Ughoton.

A Bini chronicler and chief (J. Uwadiae Egharevba) who flourished decades later also collected practically the same story of Ekaladerhan (from an entirely different generation of Bini informants), and his story also ended at his kingdom, Ughoton.

During all these period, Benin history recognizes King Oduduwa as being distict from Ekeladerhan. In fact, it is clear from the early Benin works that Oduduwa was already a King at Ife long before Ekaladerhan’s fore-fathers would be born.

In other words, it is very clear from the early records of Benin history that Oduduwa ruled in Ife when the first Ogiso, viz. Ogiso Igodo was sent to Igodomigodo to establish a supreme-supra-chiefdom there.

Whereas, Ekalderhan is the son of the last Ogiso, viz. Ogiso Owodo according to Benin records (even the recent records haven’t yet modified this part).

This is what the earliest records of Benin history say — that, Oduduwa is a different and distinct person from Ekeladerhan. They flourished in different eras.

Fast forward to the 1970s, lies began to surface in the history of Benin. The motive behind these lies have been variously linked, by scholars, to — for example — the need for the modern Binis “to ground the idea of an exceptional antiquity for their people and claims for its exclusive part in the sociopolitical life of independent Nigeria” ~ Bondarenko (2003:68).

In summary, early Benin history recognize Oduduwa as a different & distinct person from Ekaladerhan. He is recognized as having flourished at the outset of the Ogiso monarchy. It wasn’t until the 1970s before the Binis attempted to alter their own early documented history so as to equate two different persons as one and the same person for the purpose of veiling what they perceive to be an embarrassing aspect of their history in a newly formed country, Nigeria.

So, who is King Oduduwa? Oodua ruled as king only in Yorubaland. So, again (just like the Itsekiris’s case) ask at Ife (where he ruled) to know who he is.

According to received Ife traditions (and obviously the earliest Yoruba traditions), Oduduwa is known (without any confusion) as Oshin Ora in his oriki.

In the earliest Yoruba traditions, he is identified as a Yoruba leader who hailed from the hilly settlement of Oke-Ora; that is, one of the seven hilly settlements surrounding the Ife-bowl.

Peace!
Cc: KingOdart, Nisiw365, theInterpreter, ibuildstuff, Born2Breed, donforeign, LamidiCownu

——————
PS: @Enceladus, please be guided that the circular burial pits discovered are eleven (11) in total.

Screenshot Reference:
J. Eboreime, “Oral Traditions and the Prehistory of the Edo-Speaking People of Benin” in Blench and Spriggs, Archaeology and Language I, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2004, p. 314.

UGBE634:
The Benin/Ife claim is actually a ruse.

You had upheld the fact that there exists an ancient link between Ife and Benin,

However, at the very instant when I made you realize that academic and professional historians submitted that the link is actually one of Father-Ife & son-Benin (and not vice versa), you miraculously concluded that there was actually never any link between Ife & Benin in the ancient times. How miraculous & convenient?!

My humble advice is that you should accept whatever history throws at you regardless of how little it makes you feel, or how it bruises you. Such is life.

Having said that, you are yet to answer my foregoing humble question which you quoted which reads:

“Do you also want to be enlightened on each of the so-called 5 cLAiMs? — none of which is actually a cLAiM made/initiated by the Yorubas. Let me know what you think. Lol.”

Peace!

Christistruth00:
The Deal Is done

King Sola is the new Olu of Warri !!

Gregboy you can tell your boys to return the Olu of Warri’s Stolen Crown now,

you promised he wouldn’t be Crowned and you almost pulled it off, we underestimated the length to which you and your boys would go

Thank God the Itsekiri’s had a back up Crown in Storage

Gregboy your boys really tried , they almost Pafuka the entire Coronation

And for what reason just bescause King Sola had a Yoruba Mama

But the Oba of Benin is a Yoruba man so what is your Problem exactly ?

At a point it was looking like he would be kidnapped before he got a chance to get anywhere near the Throne if not for Gods Mercy and the determination of the Itsekiri People

May King Sola’s reign be Wonderful and Long. and may Jesus always guide and Protect him

Cc TAO12

Yes oo. We won again. We are used to winning. Thank God.

UGBE634:
These five claims are so not true, The last one is a big blow to them obviously. It was not even Eweka2. It was Eweka 1, Eweka the second name was Aiguobasiwmin-it is intelligible to all Edos

(1) Do you also want to be enlightened on each of the so-called 5 cLAiMs? — none of which is actually a cLAiM made/initiated by the Yorubas. Let me know what you think. Lol.

(2) The classical (pre-1800) connection between father-IFe and son-Benin obviously did not begin with Eweka II contrary to what your resolutely fraudulent brother will love that you believe.

I have already established this (while debunking your brother’s superficial innuendos on the other thread) by adducing historical evidences such as artifacts and texts both dating to the 1400a/1500s.

Cc: nisai, FairlyUSEDpussy, theTranslator

My replies would be based on two sources, viz. (1) the earliest received/published traditions from Benin (2) the historical conclusions reached by the foremost scholars (i.e. academic/professional historians) of pre-colonial Benin dead/alive today. Fair?

UGBE634:
how would he be king at Ife before Ekaladerhan's forefathers was born and immediately after the banishment of Ekalederhan, the Interregnum Followed and the Ogieamien/Evian, before Oranmiyan was sent for. All these happenings won't be more than fifty years.

First of all, by the word “he,” you must be referring to King Oduduwa himself.

Secondly, it is very, very implausible, in fact actually unrealistic and irrational to propose a gap of about “fifty years” between the first Ogiso and the last.

To break this down for you, the earliest received and published traditions on the Ogisos list them as twelve, from Igodo to Owodo (both of them inclusive).

Your proposition of a fifty-year time-span between the first Ogiso (Igodo) and the last (Owodo) leaves the inevitable conclusion that each ruled for an average of about four (4) years.

Now you see the absurdity and inconsistency of your proposition of a fifty year gap between the start and end of the Ogiso “monarchy”.

Having clarified that, I would proceed now to quote to you what the earliest received/published traditions from Benin say regarding the beginning of the Ogiso “monarchy”:

“Many, many years ago, Odua (Oduduwa) of Uhe (Ile-Ife) the father and the progenitor of the Yoruba kings sent his eldest son Obagodo who took the title of Ogiso with a large retinue all the way from Uhe to found a Kingdom in this part of the world.” ~ Chief J.U. Egharevba, “A Short History of Benin,” (1936), p.7.

In other words, the earliest records of Benin traditions on the Ogiso monarchy states that it began from Ifẹ̀ (“Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá”) during the reign of Oduduwa.

Moreover, modern academic/professional historians have now combed and scrutinized Benin traditions on the root of the Ogiso monarchy and have also come to agree with these early Benin traditions.

D. M. Bondarenko writes in relation to this as follows:

“The third Ogiso became the last in their Yoruba, Ife line. He returned to Ife, but by that time the very institution of the supreme supra-chiefdom ruler had already been established firmly enough in Benin.” ~ D. Bondarenko and P. Roese, “Ancient Benin: Where Did the First Monarchs Come From?,” (June 2001), p.10.

sent? who sent him

As you can see above from the early Benin traditions, the first Ogiso monarch was sent from Ife during the reign of King Oduduwa himself.

how would you reconcile this fact because it was only after Ogiso Owodo son was banished, and the Interregnum followed, then the Ogieamien/Evian followed, before Oranmiyan was sent for, how could he have been alive during the Time of Igodo and his Son/grandson later came to be king after twenty Ogisos

Although there is actually nothing baffling whatsoever in this Benin traditions which professionals have long scrutinized, agreed with, and moved on from; I am glad that you raised your question along those lines because it allows me to show you how these Benin traditions are corroborated by historical conclusions from even other sources.

Firstly, the early Benin traditions imply that Oduduwa was at the beginning of the Ogiso “monarchy,” while Oranmiyan was at its ‘end’.

Your question (of how Oranmiyan could still be alive at the end of the Ogiso monarchy) stems from your basic assumption that Oranmiyan was alive at the beginning of the Ogiso monarchy.

There is no historical evidence for this assumption of yours. Oranmiyan doesn’t have to be alive at the start of the Ogiso monarchy. He can be (and he actually is) Oduduwa’s grandson, and also be yet unborn when the Ogiso monarchy kickstarted.

To further break this down for you and make things even clearer as promised, our traditions make it clear that Oranmiyan is “one of the youngest grandsons [if not literally the youngest grandson of the youngest son] of Oduduwa”.

Moreover, modern historical studies by professional, academic historians (on the basis of a multiplicity of historical evidence) reached the historical consensus that Oduduwa flourished c. 1000 CE, and Oranmiyan flourished around the late 1100s.

This historical conclusion is not inconsistent with our traditional accounts that Oranmiyan was indeed “one of the youngest grandsons of Oduduwa” — the time-span (of more than 100 years apart) separating their respective prominences is a reality (a quite easily obtainable one at that) even in our present times.

So far, the historical conclusions — in the light of our traditions — imply that the respective prominences of Oduduwa (e.g. his reign as an O[gh]oni at Ife) and of his grandson, Oranmiyan (e.g. his expedition to Benin) have a gap of more than 100 years in between.

Is this number consistent with the earlier cited Benin traditions on the Ogiso monarchy? Let’s see.

The number of Ogisos have continued to grow from one writing to another with the passage of time (with some writers listing over 30 of them by some names). You have alluded here to 20 instead of over 30.

These discrepancies are expected. It may be rooted in folks’ need to ground the idea of an exceptional antiquity for their people by pushing their ‘ancestors’ as farther back into the past as possible.

However, the number of the Ogisos of Igodomigodo as given in the earliest received and published listing (i.e. per the earliest editions of Chief J. U. Egharevba’s works) is a reasonable number to adopt as accurate.

Chief J. U. Egharevba’s informants who (according to Bradbury “had grown to maturity” prior to the modern world) would appear to be more retentive of the events of old than later-day informants, et al.

As such, the number of the Ogisos given in the early works of Chief J.U. Egharevba is twelve (12) from Igodo to Owodo (both of them inclusive).

In other words, the early records of Benin traditions on the Ogiso indicate that twelve (12) Ogisos reigned in Igodomigodo between Oduduwa’s “prominence” and Oranmiyan’s “prominence”.

IF (for want of a better estimate) the generic average of a thirteen (13) year length of kingly reign [which has been seen as quite authoritative for this region of the Guinea forest of W/Africa for olden times. ~ Sargeant, 1984, p.27] is applied; this would result in a time-span of about 163 years between the beginning of the Ogiso (during Oduduwa’s reign) and the close of the Ogiso (during Oranmiyan expedition to ‘Benin’). ~ The Math: 13 years average reign * 12.5 reigns = 162.5 years (estimate).

In sum, the early Benin traditions imply that Oduduwa (the Ife king at the outset of the Ogiso monarchy) is separated from Oranmiyan (at the end of the Ogiso monarchy) by more than 100 years.

It is very, very crucial to note that the Ogisos could, in fact, have possibly numbered up to thirty-one (31). It is not uncommon in our region that a monarch whose reign is very, very short-lived in relation to what is considered normal (i.e. a reign of about1 year) is usually omitted from the early palaces’ oral listings.

However, factoring this possibility [of some nineteen “omitted”, “short-reigned” Ogisos; with an average reign of one year each] into the estimate does actually improves it rather than undermine it.

Having clarified, this estimate (which is implied by the early Benin traditions) is corroborated by a separate & independent result which dates Oodua to fl. 1000CE and Oranmiyan to fl. 1195CE — that is, more than 100 years apart.

I will be tilted to believe this narrative now, he couldn't have come to Benin City of today and yet nowhere in the whole of Benin City is Yoruba spoken not even by a minute clan,

First of all, I would advice that you read. I am shocked that you have zero clue on things I expected that you would know.

Even the early Benin traditions (prior to the iZoDuWa fabrication) states clearly that Oranmiyan camped at a place called Usama (not at the present site of the palace). His son is also said to have been born at Ego and was raised at Use (also not at the present palace site.

Having educated you on that, your logic is still flawed even if his presence had left the influence of Yoruba language on the Binis.

Your logic is flawed because some eyewitness writing exists which notes that a fair number of Bini populace spoke some Portuguese centuries ago.

However, Portuguese is not spoken anywhere in Benin today — not even by a minute clan or a single person. You get the gist now.

Having said that, the use of the Yorubas’ language in Benin is a widely attested phenomenon beyond any reasonable doubt.

A writing from the 1600s (a letter written by a French Father who visited Benin kingdom for the purpose of establishing a Christian mission there) testifies to the fact that Yoruba language was at the time the lingua-franca of Benin kingdom (i.e. an esteemed language used alongside the native one).

Even the palace that was said to be Yoruba speaking gave Ozolua the name Okpame as a prince -entirely intelligible to the Edo man, Ovonranwmen was Idugbowa-also entirely Intelligible to the Edo man, and so with most of the princes if not all. History seem more or less like a ruse to me. And also Igueghae who was said to have taught Bini bronze Casting that is sad to be from Ife is with a Bini name

A little scratch on the surface of linguistics (etymology and glottochronology in particular) would have left you better guided in this specific regard.

For example (on “etymology”), had there not been the need for the older generations to preserve the story surrounding Eweka’s name; its root and hence its meaning would have been completely lost to us.

Following your logic, we may now then propose that the palace probably originally spoke neither Yoruba nor Edo. This proposition is a wrong one, and we can now confidently say it is wrong only because we are lucky enough to have the traditions surrounding that name preserved and passed down to us.

Furthermore, the outward unintelligibility of certain words, etc. can also be explained from the standpoint of “glottochronology”.

Linguistics have have established the following:

(1) The present-day different dialects of a language (the Yoruba language for example) all used to be one and the same exact singular language the farther back in time you go.

(2) The present-day differentiations in these dialects (of the Yoruba language for example) are the result of (a) natural linguistic evolutions, and (b) novel linguistic innovations, among others.

(3) Linguistic studies have reached the conclusion that the dialects spoken in central Yorubaland is the result of far more linguistic innovations than in other parts of Yorubaland.

As such, many consonant sounds (or even complete words) which have remained preserved/unchanged in the Yoruba frontier areas have been been met with some innovative elision/replacements in central Yorubaland in the course of the centuries.

In the light of this education, it is therefore clear why certain words which used to be present in use in the past by all these people is now lost to some (or even all) of them.

Some words which are similarly slipping away even in our present-times is the word “Oluku” (for “friend”) or “Ogho” (for the city of “Owo”) among many others.

(4) This very linguistic concept is the same that applies between languages (not only within a language).

(5) Linguistics show that the present languages of the Yoruba, Igala, Edo, Idoma, Ebira, Nupe, Kakanda, Igbo, and Gbagyi all differentiated in the very distant past from one and the same very language.

In the light of the foregoing education, what appears to be words intelligible only to the Edos are in reality words which used to be mutually intelligible not only to Edos and Yorubas (but also to others as well), and vice versa.

It only so happens that by the passage of time, many words which the Edos still hold in use (due to the very minimal linguistic innovation within their group) have been replaced and lost to time and to innovation among the other related groups.

This explanation is further bolstered by the fact that within the Yoruba group, little linguistic innovation in their language is observed along the eastern Yoruba frontiers, around the north-east Yoruba corner, and in the south-east Yoruba axis — areas nearer to the Edo region where minimal linguistic innovation is also observed.

In addition to the foregoing linguistic explanations, it must also be borne in mind that the influences must have been two-ways rather than one-way.

In other words, while there must have been influence from the Yoruba side, the native Edo side must also have played its role — especially considering the fact that the Yoruba patrilineal monarchs also have native indigenous parents as well among other factors.

In any case, some of the kings’ names (as evolved as they are) is intelligible from a Yoruba standpoint. Also, Portuguese used to be spoken by some Binis.

Peace!

Cc: nisai, FairlyUSEDpussy, theTranslator, macof

samuk:
[s]Just claiming the Oba dynasty as coming from Ife is no longer enough, the Yorubas are also claiming the Ogisos as being sent from Ife, they also claimed that the Yorubas introduced the Ada and Eben to Benin. I did a comprehensive writeup on Benin/Ife relationship, Oduduwa and Ekaladerhan and how all these stories, not history started after 1897.

Ask yourself how many Obas of Benin have Yoruba names, they all have traditional Edo names. Research and hear the sort of deeply Edo traditional names the Benin princes and princesses bear before oba Eweka 2 who started all these Benin/Ife connection.

The Yoruba can only misinform you. Imagine you trying to learn your history of over 1000 years from some of those whose ancestors were recently dumped on the Nigeria soil after the abolition of slavery in the 1800s. Some of these guys ancestors were not even originally from Nigeria.[/s]

I swear to God, I could see crystal-clearly through your heap of pain and anguish, and I know UGBE, whom you are seeking to deceive, also can.

UGBE must be wondering, why is this my brother so deceptive, bitter and sad?

I pray for you today that God should restore your long lost happiness again, if possible. Amen.

Sending you love and light.

Now to UGBE634

nisai:
E sanu boda ooo. I know say u don ready koboko.

Lol.

Let’s get this straight so I can determine the approach of my response:

Are you trying to argue or are you genuinely seeking to understand?

Make your pick so I can proceed. Thanks.

@UGBE634

.

HornyTave:
[s]Lol.

I think I should educate you.

Timeline of migration and name change of Benin.

1. The first People to leave Igodomigodo, capital city of Igodo were the Urhobo, they know Benin as Akah.

2. The next set of People that left Benin was Prince Izoduwa, a banished Prince, banished by Oliha and the palace chiefs. When the custodian of the throne died, he was looked for, in the hinterland ( ife ), prior his arrival to Ife, history has it the clans there not united, he united them and has a son in Oyo as Alaafin while he remained in Ife as Diviner.
When the emissary from Igodo came to Izoduwa ( Oduduwa ), he was old and couldn't leave, hence he sent the last of his son, Oranmiyan in his stead, Oranmiyan lived in present Day Usen and renamed the place Ile'Ibinu which means land of the angry,
a. Brcause he didnt understand the language.
b. He didnt understand the politics played there

He said only a son born in Benin can rule Benin. He gave birth to a son named Eweka, and He returned to Ife.
Oranmiyan was the First One and 36th Ogiso ( Oba of Benin during His coronation )

The other People that left Benin was the Was an folks starting during the time of One Ewuare the first who changed the Name Bini to Edo in respect to A servabt who saved his Life. Harsh laws and injustice, running away from the law, made the Esan fled.
The other People who left Edo was Prince Opkameri, who formed the Edo north Chiefdoms, He later became Oba Ozolua who died during the Benin - Esan War.
The Itshekiris left at a later time, after Ozolua and before Esigie. Thier kings name always start with Oghiamen means Lord of Water.
During the Idah - Benin war, Esigie extended Benin rule accross the Niger ( Orisha - Ado, corrupted to Onitcha Ado ).
Also it was during the time of Esigie, Benin founded Eko ( Lagos ) a forward base in,doing business with the Europeans.

The king maker in Itshekiri and highest title holder is Ologbostere, a title with Benin Origin, recall the Delta state government issued it won't recognise the Olu if Ologbostere didn't approve his coronation which led the Oba of Benin to intervene. His reason were, it is against tradition to have a king of a Yoruba mother.

There are 3 version of bini language,
The old Akah variant
The old yoroboid variant and another which ive forgotten...

Lol

Even Owo has Benin ancestry and part of Ado - Ekiti.

Come with facts bro, I'm jobless today, lets make it fun with facts,[/s]

(1) ON ITSEKIRI:

To know who the Itsekiris are, ask them. What/who do the Itsekiris themselves say they are?

(A) The eyewitness accounts collected from them in the 1800s have them confirming to the Europeans that they are part and parcel of the larger Yoruba group:

(I) “Let me now refer briefly to the tribes that people this part of the world. First we come to the Jakris, who are connected in race and language with the Yoruba people, extending from the Mahin country on the west to the Forcados on the East, and inland about as far as Sapele.”

~ H. L. Gallwey, “Journeys in the Benin Country, West Africa,” The Geographical Journal, Vol. 1, No. 2 (Feb., 1893), p.127.

(II) “In this respect, however, the officials agree with the tradition of the people at Warri, the Jekries, who claim to come from the west.”

~ H. Ling Roth, “Great Benin: Its Customs, Arts and Horrors,” (1903), pp.8-9.

(B) This historical reality of the Itsekiris have remained the same since that period (i.e. the 1800s & prior) all the way to the present century, day & time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKLTie7LhKQ

(I) For example, at timestamp 7:01 to 7:13 of this video, Chief Robinson Ariyo (the Egogo of Warri kingdom) says and I quote:

“… Yoruba, a place where we are from … our roots.”


(II) At timestamp 8:22 to 8:27 of this video, Chief Isaac Jemide (the Oshodin of Warri kingdom) says:

“… we are a Yoruba people as such.”


(2) ON ODUDUWA:

First of all, there is no such historical personage called Izoduwa (Imadoduwa) etc. in Benin traditions.

The IzOdUwA narrative is a fabrication that was made up by some Binis in the 1970s. And it was first heard of by the typical Edo person during Omonoba Erediauwa’s coronation ceremony of 1978-9.

Academic/professional historians (NOT the Benin neighborhood story-tellers) all laugh at this fabrication for being a poor job. This scandal is known to experts. Benin elders also know it. See attached screenshot for one example.

The classical story of the Bini Ekeladerhan which was first collected in the year 1889 is clear that he lived the remaining part of his life in his newly founded kingdom, Ughoton.

A Bini chronicler and chief (J. Uwadiae Egharevba) who flourished decades later also collected practically the same story of Ekaladerhan (from an entirely different generation of Bini informants), and his story also ended at his kingdom, Ughoton.

During all these period, Benin history recognizes King Oduduwa as being distict from Ekeladerhan. In fact, it is clear from the early Benin works that Oduduwa was already a King at Ife long before Ekaladerhan’s fore-fathers would be born.

In other words, it is very clear from the early records of Benin history that Oduduwa ruled in Ife when the first Ogiso, viz. Ogiso Igodo was sent to Igodomigodo to establish a supreme-supra-chiefdom there.

Whereas, Ekalderhan is the son of the last Ogiso, viz. Ogiso Owodo according to Benin records (even the recent records haven’t yet modified this part).

This is what the earliest records of Benin history say — that, Oduduwa is a different and distinct person from Ekeladerhan. They flourished in different eras.

Fast forward to the 1970s, lies began to surface in the history of Benin. The motive behind these lies have been variously linked, by scholars, to — for example — the need for the modern Binis “to ground the idea of an exceptional antiquity for their people and claims for its exclusive part in the sociopolitical life of independent Nigeria” ~ Bondarenko (2003:68).

In summary, early Benin history recognize Oduduwa as a different & distinct person from Ekaladerhan. He is recognized as having flourished at the outset of the Ogiso monarchy. It wasn’t until the 1970s before the Binis attempted to alter their own early documented history so as to equate two different persons as one and the same person for the purpose of veiling what they perceive to be an embarrassing aspect of their history in a newly formed country, Nigeria.

So, who is King Oduduwa? Oodua ruled as king only in Yorubaland. So, again (just like the Itsekiris’s case) ask at Ife (where he ruled) to know who he is.

According to received Ife traditions (and obviously the earliest Yoruba traditions), Oduduwa is known (without any confusion) as Oshin Ora in his oriki.

In the earliest Yoruba traditions, he is identified as a Yoruba leader who hailed from the hilly settlement of Oke-Ora; that is, one of the seven hilly settlements surrounding the Ife-bowl.

(3) ON Ọ̀WỌ̀ & ADO-EKITI:

Owo and Ado-Ekiti do not have Benin ancestry. Again, to know the roots & foundations of the Owo kingdom, ask the Owo palace.

According to the main body of Owo palace traditions,
the kingdom of Ọ̀wọ̀ (classic dialect: Ọ̀ɣọ̀) was founded by a prince of Ile-Ife whose name is given as Asunlola Ojugbelu — a.k.a. Omolaghaye (and his son, Imade).

Also, the kingdom of Ado-Ekiti is founded (according to Ado palace traditions) by a prince of Ile-Ife who was known by the names Awamaro as well as Ewi.

Until you provide accounts of Owo palace traditions, and Ado-Ekiti palace traditions which identifies these individuals (Ojugbelu and Awamaro respectively) as Binis; then your submission remains the joke that it is.

Peace!
Cc: theTranslator, musiwa10, Poiu11, FairlyUSEDpussy

Screenshot Reference:
J. Eboreime, “Oral Traditions and the Prehistory of the Edo-Speaking People of Benin” in Blench and Spriggs, Archaeology and Language I, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2004, p. 314.

Rayhutar:
Can you speak or hear Awori language, Awori language and Yoruba languge are different. Most Aworis argue that they are not yorubas, for Egun language, a Yoruba person cannot hear that one, on Ltv language news, this languages are not the same.

Which Awori argue they’re not Yoruba? Yeye!

You better make peace with yourself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88-cG1nC8fM

@ArmedRobber, the embedded video is for you to watch, listen to and enjoy the Awori at their ancestral homeland during the Olofin festival of their father.

gregyboy:
[s]Hmm you really have nothing newFirst of all the quote by ogendegbe who couldn't write or spell in English already fish the concatenated history as scam...Who recorded ogendegbe actually words in the quote.... Lets asumme he told the story to his kinsmen which is unlikely tooThen again... The word Benin in the quote is another point to note out, the edo people didn't even refer to themselves as benins prior to ogendegbe raids in the kingdom, in the late 1800, rather the name wss known by the various Europeans who refered to the edo people as benin only, this was as a result of the description the itsekiri gave the Portuguese describing the edo people in their behavior of hostility and hence they picked the name Benin from Ile binu, to refer to the edo people who were never aware of such word been used by the European and Portuguese to describe them and not until the collapse of the empire and the beginning of the britsh administration that the britsh began using the name benin to refer to the edo people that they became aware of such name, due to the rising literacy that followed the Era.... The edo people always refers to themselves as edo and her surroundingneighbour's refers to them as a corrupt version of such name or ika by othersSo how did ogendegbe known edo was called Benin Ogendegbe literally wondered into edo state unknowingly and started raiding not until he was warned by an esan General that he knew he was in a wrong territoryBut he wasn't killed probably escaped he didnt live to fight the esan warriors , he also proved too stubborn to the britsh and was imprisoned like a bird and he ended up committing suicide...[/s]

•
What version of CRAP is this?
•

gregyboy:
[s]Lies to appease your soul... Go in if it lets you sleep... Haha..

I never see bribing warriors.. Lol[/s]

You mean your LIES are supposed to appease MY soul to sleep?? You failed child!

You mean your oba & his band of beggars are bribing warriors?? I thought as much. Oh is that why he and his bribing warriors begged Ogedengbe away?

gregyboy:
[s]Lol, are you saying that lies to appease me or yourself
Why would ogendebge not just conquer the whole edo north and have the full edo north population as slaves and have numerous gift from the land
Definitely the whole edo north will be more than the slaves the oba would have offered…
Please stop making me laugh... I never heard in history were a warrior was bribed into summision
Cookup another lies this time use a woman as source the ogendebge distraction from benin.[/s]

CRAP!

Ogedengbe ravaged Owan and Etsako. He was moving down south closer and closer to the palace when your oba literally BEGGED & APPEASED and made peace with him so he can leave his kingdom alone.

[s]And again samuel johson a Yoruba historian in 1897 made it know that the name ijebu was from the benins who took the jebus as sacrafical slaves and when the benins dumbed them in the river for sacrificial puropse the water makes the 'tubu' sound and hence the name ijebu was coined[/s]

Another debunked CRAPpy! falsehood

https://www.nairaland.com/6482972/name-lagos-called-ekonunuame-benins/5#104295576

[s]Tao11 the Yoruba obsessed transgendered, you obsession is coming from the fact we benins ruled over the aworis the tribe you claim you came from and we bins take pride over it on net and you disliked us for it, so you channel your hate to destroy the benins history but only ended up disgracing your people the more from the wrought of my hands

Benin was a world power in Nigeria as a whole up to the north.. You better swallow this and know peace bro[/s]

Insult and Lies will not save you from me, because it has never saved you.

BeNiN iS a SuPeR pOwEr! LMAO! No wonder Benin suffered so much at the hands of its more powerful neighbours such as Nupe, Ilorin, and Ibadan.