₦airaland Forum

MindHacker9009:
You are the Mr Nobody as you are believing in a character in the New Testament storybook as the son of your god. You are still a small boy but you don't want to learn from intellectuals like me.

Because you don't know how to research is the reason you based all you know on ChatGPT because you are still a kid. ChatGPT was created by engineers to say what they have been told to program it to say. Because you are still a kid, that's why you believe ChatGPT is a historian.

For your information read this:
A New York lawyer is facing a court hearing of his own after his firm used AI tool ChatGPT for legal research.
A judge said the court was faced with an "unprecedented circumstance" after a filing was found to reference example legal cases that did not exist. Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65735769

Historia Augusta collections included the letter I quoted from before and I also listed historians that agrees with his collections.

Like a kid you are, you are running away from this information I gave before because your brain is full of what's in the image.

Some historical accounts suggest that Constantine's army included Christian soldiers and even a Christian legion. There are stories about Constantine having Christian symbols on his soldiers' shields during battles, including the famous "In hoc signo vinces" (In this sign, you will conquer) vision.
So these are the same Christians that were being persecuted in Rome.

Paul the Apostle's ministry likely spanned from approximately AD 34 to AD 67 but Paul did not mention about Christians in Rome being persecuted in AD 64.

This is what the Jews have in their Talmud that's even if you know the meaning of The Talmud:
"On the eve of Passover, they hanged Yeshu. And the herald went out before him for forty days, saying, 'He is going to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and declare it.' But they did not find anything in his favor, and they hanged him on the eve of Passover."

"It was taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah. These are the names of the disciples of Yeshu who were hanged."

Lol, you call me a nobody for believing a man who many testify of. Point to one historian that claims the writings of John, Matthew or peter are fake .
You keep repeating yourself in every post, don't you have anything else to add seeing I have knocked out all the crap you posted.
Can you give me real prove backed by historians and not this crap you keep repeating?
Oga , you are pain because I have proven you to be fake. See how you spent more time talking about chatgpt instead of answering my questions.
Let me ask again,
List the renowned historians that claim Jesus Christ was a frictional character.
Just mention one name please

MindHacker9009:
Historians supporting the invention of Jesus Christ are the ones saying Historia Augusta's collections are fake.
The passage where Flavius Josephus mentioned Jesus Christ is also viewed by Historians as fake because of its overtly Christian tone, which seems out of place in Josephus' Jewish context.

The following historians have argued in favor of the reliability of the Historia Augusta collections:
Anthony Birley (1937–2020) - Suggested the earlier biographies were based on authentic sources, such as the now-lost works of Marius Maximus.
Hermann Peter (1837–1914) - Suggested a composition date of 330 AD and believed the work was closer to the events it describes.
Arnaldo Momigliano (1908–1987) - Critiqued the late 4th-century single-author theory and argued for an earlier date, attributing anachronisms to later edits.
A. H. M. Jones (1904–1970) - Expressed skepticism about the idea of a single forger, leaving open the possibility of authentic earlier sources.
Alan Cameron (1938–2017) - Argued for a composition timeframe between 361 and the 380s, rather than the late 4th century.

Also this:
Some historical accounts suggest that Constantine's army included Christian soldiers and even a Christian legion. There are stories about Constantine having Christian symbols on his soldiers' shields during battles, including the famous "In hoc signo vinces" (In this sign, you will conquer) vision.
So these are the same Christians that were being persecuted in Rome.

Paul the Apostle's ministry likely spanned from approximately AD 34 to AD 67 but Paul did not mention about Christians in Rome being persecuted in AD 64.

This is what the Jews have in their Talmud that's even if you know the meaning of The Talmud:
"On the eve of Passover, they hanged Yeshu. And the herald went out before him for forty days, saying, 'He is going to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and declare it.' But they did not find anything in his favor, and they hanged him on the eve of Passover."

"It was taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah. These are the names of the disciples of Yeshu who were hanged."

You are the child here that cannot think by yourself and believing a storybook character of the New Testament is real.

You are the Mr Nobody.

Lool now our Mr Nobody is claiming to be better than acclaimed historians. My boy, life isn't always what you want it to be.
Please look for an accepted historian who backs your position and stop using unconfirmed letters.
I provided concrete and proven writings try to do the same.

Again see how confused you are, we were not debating Historia Augusta collections but just this one letter. Stop confusing yourself kid


Hadrian is purported to have addressed a letter from Egypt to his elderly brother-in-law Servianus, who was Roman consul in AD 134 (by which time Hadrian himself was back in Rome). In Alexandria, he relates: "There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis" (The Four Tyrants, VIII.1).
ChatGPT said:
ChatGPT
The letter attributed to Emperor Hadrian to his brother-in-law Servianus is often cited in discussions of religious syncretism in the Roman Empire, particularly regarding the relationship between early Christianity and the cult of Serapis in Egypt. However, the authenticity of this letter is debated among scholars.

Context of the Letter
Hadrian (ruled AD 117–138) allegedly wrote this letter from Egypt, commenting on the religious landscape of Alexandria. He noted that many people who worshiped Serapis (an Egyptian-Greek deity associated with the afterlife and healing) were also identified as Christians, and that Christian bishops were, in reality, devotees of Serapis. This suggests a level of religious blending or confusion in the early 2nd century, possibly due to the widespread syncretism in Alexandria, where religious identities were fluid.

Serapis and Christianity in Alexandria
Serapis was a Greco-Egyptian deity introduced by the Ptolemies in the 3rd century BC, combining aspects of Osiris, Zeus, and Hades.
Christianity was still developing in Egypt during Hadrian's reign, and its relationship with local religious traditions was complex.
Alexandria was known for its diverse and sometimes volatile religious environment, with tensions between different sects, including Jews, Christians, and traditional Greco-Roman worshipers.
Authenticity and Source Issues
The letter appears in Historia Augusta (The Four Tyrants, VIII.1), a late 4th-century work with a reputation for being unreliable. Many of its documents and speeches are considered fabrications.
The lack of corroborating evidence from contemporary sources raises doubts about whether Hadrian actually wrote this letter.
Some scholars believe the passage may reflect later Christian polemics or an attempt to exaggerate the confusion between Christianity and pagan religions.
Possible Interpretations
Religious Syncretism: Early Christians in Alexandria may have used language or rituals similar to those of Serapis worshipers, leading to confusion.
Imperial Criticism: Hadrian, known for his interest in religious matters, might have been commenting on the political or social ambiguity of religious identities in Alexandria.
Forgery or Exaggeration: The letter may have been fabricated or altered in the later Roman period to serve a particular narrative about early Christianity.
Conclusion
While the letter is intriguing and suggests an overlap between Christianity and the Serapis cult, its authenticity remains uncertain. It is best understood as a reflection of the religious complexities of 2nd-century Alexandria rather than direct historical evidence of early Christian practices.




The letter attributed to Emperor Hadrian (ruled AD 117–138) regarding religious conditions in Alexandria, specifically mentioning Serapis worshipers and Christians, is widely regarded as dubious or outright fraudulent by modern scholars.

Reasons for Doubt
It Appears in the Unreliable Historia Augusta

The letter is found in The Four Tyrants (VIII.1), part of the Historia Augusta, a late 4th-century Roman text known for its highly unreliable and often fictionalized content.
Many of the letters and speeches included in the Historia Augusta are believed to be forgeries or later fabrications.
Lack of Contemporary Evidence

No other Roman historians (such as Cassius Dio, Suetonius, or Tacitus) mention this letter, despite documenting Hadrian's reign.
No copies of the letter exist outside the Historia Augusta, making it impossible to verify its authenticity.
Inconsistencies in Content

The claim that Christian bishops were "devotees of Serapis" seems exaggerated and unlikely, considering Christianity’s growing distinctiveness from pagan religions in the 2nd century.
While religious syncretism was common in Alexandria, there is no strong evidence that Christians worshiped Serapis.
Hadrian was an intelligent and well-traveled emperor, making it unlikely that he would conflate the two religions so simplistically.
Possible Explanations
Forgery by Later Writers: The letter may have been fabricated in the 4th century, when Christian authors sought to highlight early misunderstandings about their faith.
Political Satire: It could be a satirical critique of Alexandria’s chaotic religious scene, rather than an authentic document from Hadrian.
Exaggeration Based on Real Events: While Alexandria was religiously diverse and occasionally violent, the letter may dramatize tensions rather than accurately describe them.
Conclusion
The majority of modern historians consider Hadrian’s letter to Servianus as inauthentic, likely a later invention rather than a genuine imperial document. However, it still provides insight into how later Roman writers viewed the religious diversity and tensions of early Christianity.

Image123:
How much do you suggest to be spent next time? Na so people dey complain and criticize until asked to perform.

Zero and here is why. We don't have enough money to make any meaningful impact feeding the poor directly.
So rather than provide one meal a year for the poor, why don't you spend the money on more sustainable projects?

Again, your question was asked in bad faith. The purpose of good governance is not to stop people from complaining and criticizing but to better the lives of the people. If 98 billion naira worth of food is divided among all the poor, no one's life would be better. Let us begin to use our heads.

Image123:
Nothing wrong with palliatives, stop being a sore loser just criticizing everything as if you know anything. We've all experienced your government and it was horrible, so goan siddon. If they didn't make a single provision, you would still wail about cushion and government insensitivity to the poor.

Think for a minute here and stop licking the feet of a terrible government. At N100 per meal, that amount would only provide one meal for Nigeria's poor people. So you are clapping for a government that provided a plate of rice in an entire year to the average poor Nigerian. Let's begin to use our brains and apply the primary school maths Uncle John taught us.
Note, that there are more than 100 million poor Nigerians.
This was a complete waste of money.

MindHacker9009:
The letter in question, often attributed to Roman Emperor Hadrian, appears in various ancient sources, including Historia Augusta (a 4th-century compilation) and later Christian writings. The general practice of the Roman Empire involved preserving imperial correspondence, especially when it pertained to significant matters, such as religious policy.

Some historical accounts suggest that Constantine's army included Christian soldiers and even a Christian legion. There are stories about Constantine having Christian symbols on his soldiers' shields during battles, including the famous "In hoc signo vinces" (In this sign, you will conquer) vision.
So these are the same Christians that were being persecuted in Rome.

You are the Mr Nobody and shame on you.

Think about what you just did for a minute, you present a letter that most historians believe to be false as your strongest argument against Christianity. That just tells you how weak the ground you are standing on.
On the other hand, you have the writings of John, Peter, and Matthew who saw Jesus. You also have the works of Paul an early convert and the works of several historians I mentioned.
Be honest with yourself my child, you have nothing.
Mr Nobody.

MindHacker9009:
You are still a child that's why you are still promoting such a fictional story you are using to deceive the gullible ones, well one day the gullible ones will know it was a made up story and will be set free from indirectly worshipping Serapis thinking they are worshipping The God of the Jews.

The Historia Augusta in the late fourth century AD: (about the time of Theodosius, when the Temple of Serapis was destroyed). Hadrian is purported to have addressed a letter from Egypt to his elderly brother-in-law Servianus, who was Roman consul in AD 134 (by which time Hadrian himself was back in Rome). In Alexandria, he relates: "There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis" (The Four Tyrants, VIII.1).

Now learn
The letter attributed to Emperor Hadrian to his brother-in-law Servianus is often cited in discussions of religious syncretism in the Roman Empire, particularly regarding the relationship between early Christianity and the cult of Serapis in Egypt. However, the authenticity of this letter is debated among scholars.

Context of the Letter
Authenticity and Source Issues
The letter appears in Historia Augusta (The Four Tyrants, VIII.1), a late 4th-century work with a reputation for being unreliable. Many of its documents and speeches are considered fabrications.
The lack of corroborating evidence from contemporary sources raises doubts about whether Hadrian actually wrote this letter.
Some scholars believe the passage may reflect later Christian polemics or an attempt to exaggerate the confusion between Christianity and pagan religions.

So the best you can do is to present a false letter.
Now that I have knocked this into the trash, can you now present real evidence. Just present the records of any historian who agrees with your nonsense. Shame on you Mr Nobody

Kavod:
Two goats. Whats GBAM there? So those little kids are the terrorist. If they ask you na i guess its collateral damage.... Even those scumbags Hamas better pass most Christians.

You are right sir, it's collateral damage. Don't start a war you can't finish

sonmvayina:
Moses was talking to people in front of him..

It is not rocket science. Was Jesus amongst the people Moses was talking to?

It is simple logic.
Read the book of Joshua to find out.
A prophet is somebody who tells the truth. Not somebody who tells the future..
Isaiah never said a virgin in 7:14. He said "Almah" which means a young woman. It was a reference to his young wife. Immanuel is Isaiah's second son. But Isaiah and his sons where for signs and potents for the children of Israel see Isaiah 8:18.
Isaiah 9:6 is about a son that has already been born. Not will be born. The child was already 6 years old when Isaiah said or wrote those words. He was referring to future king Hezekiah..please learn to understand what you are reading...and wisdom to understand it..

Moses was talking to the Jews. It never mentioned the time the prophecy was going to take place.
He simply told the Jews that one will be raised among them like unto him. Jesus Christ perfectly fits the description.
You also claim that Isaiah was referring to a 6 years old child as and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
You claim that in the days of Isaiah, there was a 6 years old child who was the mighty God, and who sat on the throne of David and there was no end to the increase of his government and who sat on the throne forever?
Please tell me more about this 6 years old boy. Because we all know that no one in the time of Isaiah fits this description.

sonmvayina:
Read the verses surrounding it for better understanding...
Then come here .
Start from 10 to 20.

I understand it very well just prove it was speaking about Joshua. If you need the surrounding verses to prove it, you are welcome to do so. For now, I will be your students asking you the questions. Go ahead start providing evidence

sonmvayina:
It is simple.
Moses told them. That is the people in front of him that God will raise someone from amongst them. And they should listen to the person as they listen to him.
So when Moses passed, who did God raise up for them? If not Joshua...it is simple deduction.

But God raised several prophets among them so what prove do you have that it was Joshua in particular and not Jesus Christ who came thousands of years after?
Was Joshua a prophet like unto Moses? And in what ways?
Verse 21 and 22 talks about how the children of Israel will identify the prophet. Please mention some of the prophecies of Joshua.

Now let's not forget Isaiah that prophecies about the birth of Christ.
Isaiah 7:14 – "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
More from isaiah
Isaiah 9.6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Was this also about Joshua??

sonmvayina:
Who was Moses talking to?
Who did God raise up after Moses..

It is simple deduction...

You realize this is not a prove right?
Now to your questions. He was talking to the children of Israel about Jesus Christ.
God raised Joshua after Moses but the verses were not talking about Joshua it was a prophecy of Jesus Christ. Now could you do us the honors of providing prove that Moses was referring to Joshua the man who came immediately after him and not Christ who came a few thousand years later. Go ahead prove. The floor is yours.

sonmvayina:
The Old Testament contains numerous prophecies and references to Jesus Christ, often pointing to His mission as the Messiah. Below is a list of prophets who testified of Christ, along with examples of their prophecies:

Noooo, it is about Joshua. Who took after when Moses was no more.


No bro. See why it was easy to deceive you. You took a text out of context.
Isaiah 7:14 is a sign that God was giving to king Ahaz to assure him that his kingdom will withstand the threat of the northern kingdom and Syria who had formed an ally. It is not a messianic prophesy. It is about a war that was soon to happen. King Ahaz was scared that his blood line was going to end. So God sent Isaiah to tell him that whatever they are planning will not happen. For good measure, the son was Isaiah's son and the "Almah"(which means a young woman) is the prophetess.
Isaiah 53 is about a suffering servant. And 8 times prior to 53, Isaiah told you who the servant was. See 41:4-8 and 45:1-7. The servant that is suffering is Israel. If you are good in English you will observe that the narrative is written in past tense. There is no death. The narrative ends with Jacob/ Israel making restitution in which case, he would see his offspring and God would prolong his days. No death, resurrection and ascension..The Hallmark of Christianity. The Jews are supposed to be the light to the nations.



The new covenant of Jeremiah is the renewal of the Torah. The Torah was written on papyrus but this time the law is going to be written in their heart. It will make keeping it effortless" it is not some kind of "new law" But the only law at Sinai written in their heart.
Yes, it is talking about a king who will rule Israel. The real Messiah who will usher in an era of world peace. That person is not Jesus as he was never a king, neither did he rule Israel. So clearly not him.

You are committing lots of fallacies.
4 Zechariah
Prophecies: Zechariah described the Messiah's triumphal entry into Jerusalem and His betrayal.
Triumphal entry: Zechariah 9:9
"See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey."
Betrayal for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12-13
It is talking about à. King. Jesus was never a king. Reading the very next verse will confirm every doubt. Chapter 11:12-13 is talking about something entirely different. Learn to read things in context
The old testament supports Christ, the new testament supports Christ. The historians wrote about Christ. You should at least agree with someone.


There is absolutely no Jesus in the Tanakh if you read it well, how it is supposed to be read. You are the one trying to say what it is not saying...try again.

You only repeated your words without providing prove. You claim that the passage is talking about another leader when Moses dies. And the prophet in question was Joshua. Moses was addressing the people in front of him. Not people that will live 2000+ years into the future.
And I am asking you to provide evidence to back your statement. Moses did not mention Joshua's name and he never spoke of the time the next law giver will come so oga provide evidence?

MindHacker9009:
You are the f00lish silly child.
You don't even know the full history of Flavius Josephus you mentioned.

This is what the Jews have in their Talmud that's even if you know the meaning of The Talmud:
"On the eve of Passover, they hanged Yeshu. And the herald went out before him for forty days, saying, 'He is going to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and declare it.' But they did not find anything in his favor, and they hanged him on the eve of Passover."

"It was taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah. These are the names of the disciples of Yeshu who were hanged."

Go and learn how to do research first before coming here to discuss with intellectuals on this thread.

For now this is what your head is full of in the image:

Oga point to the words of any historian and stop your beer talk. I am tired of hearing your opinion back it up child

sonmvayina:
This passage is talking about another leader when Moses dies. And the prophet in question was Joshua. Moses was addressing the people in front of him. Not people that will live 2000+ years into the future.

The Old Testament contains numerous prophecies and references to Jesus Christ, often pointing to His mission as the Messiah. Below is a list of prophets who testified of Christ, along with examples of their prophecies:

Noooo, it is about Joshua. Who took after when Moses was no more.


No bro. See why it was easy to deceive you. You took a text out of context.
Isaiah 7:14 is a sign that God was giving to king Ahaz to assure him that his kingdom will withstand the threat of the northern kingdom and Syria who had formed an ally. It is not a messianic prophesy. It is about a war that was soon to happen. King Ahaz was scared that his blood line was going to end. So God sent Isaiah to tell him that whatever they are planning will not happen. For good measure, the son was Isaiah's son and the "Almah"(which means a young woman) is the prophetess.
Isaiah 53 is about a suffering servant. And 8 times prior to 53, Isaiah told you who the servant was. See 41:4-8 and 45:1-7. The servant that is suffering is Israel. If you are good in English you will observe that the narrative is written in past tense. There is no death. The narrative ends with Jacob/ Israel making restitution in which case, he would see his offspring and God would prolong his days. No death, resurrection and ascension..The Hallmark of Christianity. The Jews are supposed to be the light to the nations.



The new covenant of Jeremiah is the renewal of the Torah. The Torah was written on papyrus but this time the law is going to be written in their heart. It will make keeping it effortless" it is not some kind of "new law" But the only law at Sinai written in their heart.
Yes, it is talking about a king who will rule Israel. The real Messiah who will usher in an era of world peace. That person is not Jesus as he was never a king, neither did he rule Israel. So clearly not him.

You are committing lots of fallacies.
4 Zechariah
Prophecies: Zechariah described the Messiah's triumphal entry into Jerusalem and His betrayal.
Triumphal entry: Zechariah 9:9
"See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey."
Betrayal for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12-13
It is talking about à. King. Jesus was never a king. Reading the very next verse will confirm every doubt. Chapter 11:12-13 is talking about something entirely different. Learn to read things in context
The old testament supports Christ, the new testament supports Christ. The historians wrote about Christ. You should at least agree with someone.


There is absolutely no Jesus in the Tanakh if you read it well, how it is supposed to be read. You are the one trying to say what it is not saying...try again.

Only one question, prove that the prophet Moses spoke about was Joshua and not Jesus? Go ahead, prove it.

sonmvayina:
Messiah means anointed king...David and Solomon where messiah's..
About 3 million Jews heard God speak in the wilderness. I don't get you.
What can somebody create that would top that?
God gave them his laws and statues. He set them apart from other people.

Why would he send somebody again to change it? Does it make any sense to you?

Why would he change is mind?

So the Jews were expecting a king and law giver. Hence the coming of Jesus Christ is not an oddity.
You asked where Moses prophesied about another Lawgiver? I thought you know the bible.
Deuteronomy 18:15-22
Not only Moses, numerous prophets of 9ld testified of him.
Here are just a few of the old testament prophecies about Christ

The Old Testament contains numerous prophecies and references to Jesus Christ, often pointing to His mission as the Messiah. Below is a list of prophets who testified of Christ, along with examples of their prophecies:

1. Moses
Prophecy: Moses foretold that God would raise up a prophet like himself.
Reference: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18
"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to him."
(This is often interpreted as a prophecy about Jesus.)

Isaiah
Prophecies: Isaiah provided detailed prophecies about the Messiah's birth, life, suffering, and mission.
Virgin birth: Isaiah 7:14
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
Suffering servant: Isaiah 53
"He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities."
Light to the Gentiles: Isaiah 42:1-7
Jeremiah
Prophecy: Jeremiah spoke of a new covenant that would be fulfilled through Christ.
Reference: Jeremiah 31:31-34
"The days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah."
Micah
Prophecy: Micah foretold the birthplace of the Messiah.
Reference: Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel."
Zechariah
Prophecies: Zechariah described the Messiah's triumphal entry into Jerusalem and His betrayal.
Triumphal entry: Zechariah 9:9
"See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey."
Betrayal for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12-13
The old testament supports Christ, the new testament supports Christ. The historians wrote about Christ. You should at least agree with someone.

gohf:
Yes they didn't realize, they were brought up to do and practice certain things which were evil as though they were good, it's kind of like blindness. If someone doesn't see something wrong as wrong they cant know that it is wrong. So the basis of my statement is that it was a heart problem not necessarily a head one.
E.g a person lies to another to get what they want, the person lying doesn't realize they have done something wrong because they are focused on getting what they want so there mindset is that what they have done is right. So for them to realize they have to become aware of what they did that was wrong. So apart from perception that comes from intelligence we have revelation. So while we can know from our conscience and feelings that we have hurt someone at times we may not even be aware of it, speak less of knowing.

So can a person know something is wrong and be blind to it at the same time, yes because they are focused on the benefit. They are not ignorant. Like a person who knows the truth and bears false witness against another. They know they twisted the truth but they don't realize what they have done is evil because they justify on their standard of how it benefits them.

Realization is a person coming to terms and not denying that what they do is wrong.

God has one basic command which is love, be kind to others be good, don't be proud and envious and covetous be content. Adam and Eve were not content, and so over the years men because of their covetousness and lack of contentment killed, stole, like Cain killed Abel, and the like. The greed and desire to want more. Cain for instance was told by God that the desire in his heart was wrong, there was sin and he ignored it and ended up killing his brother. God told Noah he was going to flood the earth and for a 100+yrs Noah was said to not only build but also preach to his generation.

And to answer your question what was revealed to them? It was salvation the way back to God, from Noah's ark to Abraham's Isaac and the chosen nation Israel to the prophets the basis of the revelation was to reveal to men the wrong way they are going and the way back and the person who can bring them back, the son of God Jesus.

In the book of Job it says that God may cause sufferings to a man so as to speak to him and teach him the wrong of his ways, especially if such a man doesn't pay attention to the dreams given to him as warnings.

Are you trying to be controversial? You say that you know you have done something wrong yet you are not aware of it? That statement makes no sense sir. To know something is to be aware of it.
Again, you speak about a heart problem and not a head one. Please explain?
Then you gave the example with lying and you said the person lying doesn't realize they have done something wrong because they are focused on getting what they want.
I am yet to see an adult who doesn't know it is wrong to tell lies. Every time I have told lies, I was fully aware that I was in the wrong.

sonmvayina:
The Jews already have an ever lasting covenant with God...what would any Jew create that will top that...

Or you don't get it?

Should I draw you a picture?

Oh my brother, read the new testament and you will find abundance answers to your question. But then think about it, if the laws of the old testament was enough, why did Moses prophesied of another Lawgiver? The old testament spoke abundantly of the coming of the Messiah. In the words of Christ, the Scriptures testify of me. Do you get it now?

MindHacker9009:
You are the one still a small boy. All what I quoted are from historians, just google to find the links as your mind is made up to help defend your invented Jesus christ even thou the Jews do not know him, so no matter the amount of links I post here for you, you'll still find some flimsy excuse to continue your childish talk.

Lol someone is afraid of the truth. I gave you pure historic facts but you gave me beer palour tales. Silly child.
Now even stronger evidence is the writing of his followers. Matthew, John, and Peter all eyewitnesses of the ministry of Jesus Christ. So you have the works of historians which I have presented to you and the stronger evidence of his witnesses. But what do you have, beer palour tales

MindHacker9009:
You are the funny kid with foolish beliefs. That's why you result to name calling when you know you have nothing sensible to backup your foolishness.
Flavius Josephus did not know about the Jesus sect when he was 16 and he tried all the three religious sects among them, till he was 19, that was AD 53 to AD 56 but he did not hear of Jesus christ a fellow Jew that rose up on the third day? Flavius Josephus surrendered to the Romans to save his own life in AD 67, during the First Jewish-Roman War and was made to write about the invented Jesus christ from the royal palace in Rome around AD 95.

Tacitus mentioned that Christians originated from Christus. According to the Historia Augusta who quoted from a letter from Egypt in AD 134 that: "There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis" (The Four Tyrants, VIII.1).

Flavius Josephus: "About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared."

Flavius Josephus: "And when I was about sixteen years old, I had a mind to make trial of the several sects that were among us. These sects are three: the first is that of the Pharisees, the second that of the Sadducees, and the third that of the Essenes. I thought that by this means I might choose the best, if I were once acquainted with them all. So I contented myself with hard fare, and underwent great difficulties, and went through them all."

Flavius Josephus: "And when I had accomplished my desires, I returned back to the city; being now nineteen years old, and began to conduct myself according to the rules of the sect of the Pharisees, which is akin to the sect of the Stoics, as the Greeks call it."

The Historia Augusta is a collection of often spurious biographies of Roman emperors that was written in the late fourth century AD (about the time of Theodosius, when the Temple of Serapis was destroyed). Hadrian is purported to have addressed a letter from Egypt to his elderly brother-in-law Servianus, who was Roman consul in AD 134 (by which time Hadrian himself was back in Rome). In Alexandria, he relates: "There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis" (The Four Tyrants, VIII.1).

My boy quote your sources if you want to be taken serious. I have given you links and sources so do the same instead of making up history.
Let's not have a beer palour talk. Let's have an evidence based discussion it that's ok with you.
So oga post your links and let's discuss.
I have given you evidence of 2 historians that wrote about Christ. I posted links please do the same.
Let me repeat in case you missed it.
[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus#:~:text=Tacitus%20is%20one%20of%20the,Pliny%20the%20Younger%2C%20and%20Suetonius[/url].
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

MindHacker9009:
From all the valid points I've made plus adding these below from historians, and you still cannot realise that Christianity did not start from a Jewish man in Nazareth, shows what your head is filled with below.

All the historians you quoted did not show that the Christians were following a Jewish man from Nazareth.

Tacitus mentioned that Christians originated from Christus. According to the Historia Augusta who quoted from a letter from Egypt in AD 134 that: "There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis" (The Four Tyrants, VIII.1).

The Historia Augusta is a collection of often spurious biographies of Roman emperors that was written in the late fourth century AD (about the time of Theodosius, when the Temple of Serapis was destroyed). Hadrian is purported to have addressed a letter from Egypt to his elderly brother-in-law Servianus, who was Roman consul in AD 134 (by which time Hadrian himself was back in Rome). In Alexandria, he relates: "There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis" (The Four Tyrants, VIII.1).

Funny child,
Your point is that no historian said Jesus Christ was a Jew?
Except his very followers Matthew and John. Josephus said Jesus was a Jew. And many of the other historians I mentioned.
If your only argument is that no historian said Jesus Christ was a Jew then you really have no point please bring up another.
Now let me educate you, hoping you will have the humility to read.
In the link below you will find the works of the historian Tacitus on Jesus Christ and the early Christians.
Learn before arguing.
[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus#:~:text=Tacitus%20is%20one%20of%20the,Pliny%20the%20Younger%2C%20and%20Suetonius[/url].

Here is a summary of historians who disprove your foolish believes
Tacitus (c. 56–120 AD)
Roman historian Tacitus mentioned Jesus in his work Annals (Book 15, Chapter 44). Writing about Emperor Nero's persecution of Christians after the Great Fire of Rome in 64 AD, he stated:
"Christus [Christ], from whom the name [Christians] had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate."

This passage confirms Jesus' execution under Roman authority and the early spread of Christianity.
2. Josephus (c. 37–100 AD)
A Jewish historian, Josephus wrote about Jesus in his Antiquities of the Jews (c. 93–94 AD). Two references are significant:
The Testimonium Flavianum (Book 18, Chapter 3):
"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ."

This passage is controversial because later Christian scribes may have embellished it, though most scholars believe it contains a historical core.
A brief reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, about the execution of "James, the brother of Jesus who is called Christ."
3. Pliny the Younger (c. 61–113 AD)
A Roman governor, Pliny wrote to Emperor Trajan around 112 AD, seeking advice on how to handle Christians in Bithynia. He described Christians as worshiping Christ "as a god" through hymns and adhering to a strict moral code. While Pliny does not detail Jesus' life, his letter shows the rapid spread of Christianity.
4. Suetonius (c. 69–122 AD)
In his work The Twelve Caesars (Claudius 25.4), Suetonius mentioned disturbances in Rome caused by followers of "Chrestus" (a likely reference to Christ). While brief and somewhat ambiguous, this passage indicates early Christian activity.
5. Lucian of Samosata (c. 125–180 AD)
A Greek satirist, Lucian mocked Christians in his writings, describing Jesus as a "crucified sophist" who introduced strange teachings. Despite his mockery, Lucian acknowledges the devotion of Jesus' followers.
6. Mara Bar-Serapion (1st–3rd century AD)
A Syrian philosopher, Mara wrote a letter to his son, mentioning the execution of "the wise king of the Jews," believed by many scholars to refer to Jesus. He linked Jesus' death to the subsequent suffering of the Jewish people.
These accounts, while brief and sometimes indirect, are valuable as they corroborate key aspects of Jesus' life, death, and the emergence of Christianity from non-Christian perspectives.

gohf:
first off all like I wrote, God, "he gave them the intelligence" and I also stated that God revealed to them, "if God didn't rebuke men when he see they are wrong or about to go wrong they won't know"

So your first question is NO, that's not my answer, and also to your second question as well.


For your third question I wrote, "until the laws came through Moses most didn't realize what they did was wrong" and not like you understood it to be that men didn't know right from wrong and that's why we have intelligence and know what pain is.

Realizing and admitting that what you are doing is wrong is different from knowing right from wrong and besides the fruit Adam and Eve ate did give that to them, it just brought them death. God already told Adam what was wrong to do. God's word and revelation is what gives us the ability to discern but if man doesn't listen, it is akin to rejecting wisdom and remaining a fool.

Let's start from your last response. You are right when you say Realizing and admitting that what you are doing is wrong is different from knowing right from wrong. But then you also wrote that until the laws came through Moses most didn't realize what they did was wrong. Not realizing wrong means that such a person doesn't know wrong and right. It's just a play of words.
Now to the first part, you seem to be saying that the holy men of old received revelation from God.
If so, what was revealed to them, the laws of Moses or the higher laws that Christ taught?

motymop:
The father is smart

Want the best for his daughter

The father wants his daughter to remain single.

gohf:
God YHVH has been our judge since before the mosaic laws and even for those who did not have the mosaic law

Rom.2.14 - Even when Gentiles(the uncircumcised), who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong.
Rom.2.15 - They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right.

To Noah and Abraham who were recorded as righteous, Noah among the wicked men of his day probably didn't go around hurting people and was chosen to save lives. Abraham believed God, and showed himself to be compassionate to interceed and intervene when Sodom, were lot who left Abraham was, was under threat of destruction.

So even though God hadn't written his law into the hearts of men, he gave them the intelligence and conscience to be able to tell what is evil and wickedness, because we all feel pain and know what we hate so why do so to others as well. But many of their hearts insisted on going for their own pleasures.

Abram said, Sarai say you are my sister because I fear that the men of this place do not fear God and may kill me to have you. God had to rebuke Pharaoh who knew what was wrong but was ignorant of his own mistakes, not because there was an established law in that regard but because good men have said it was wrong to take what belonged to others. Remember Job who lived before Moses.

Joseph learnt of his Father's anger towards Reuben and didn't sleep with Potiphars wife.

Jacobs sons killed men because of their anger they claimed was justified but Jacob saw it as wrong and evil what they did, so you see that until the laws came through Moses most didn't realize what they did was wrong, that's why Paul explained that the laws reveal our sins. So if God didn't rebuke men when he see they are wrong or about to go wrong they won't know and some even when they get to know they still disobey and continue anyway.

Your short answer is that these men of old followed the ways God through their intelligence and not through revelation?
Are you saying that with just our intelligence and without revelation, man can discover the one true God, know his ways and serve him?

Your last point is that until the coming of the law, men did not know right from wrong. But then what happened to Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit?

MindHacker9009:
@tctrills
You are the Mr Nobody and I will show you this here:

Those who created Mohammed did a better job compared to those who created Jesus christ.
1. Saudi Arabia was not under Roman occupation when Islam was invented.
2. Mohammed is an Arab name.
3. Mohammed was written about in Arabic.
4. The headquarters of Islam is not in Turkey which was part of the Roman empire, but in Mohammed's own town.
5. Mohammed's name did not change from Arabic.
6. Mohammed asked the scribe to write down the things he said in order to preserve them.
7. The Arabs in their Koran has Mohammed in it as the messenger of Allah.

Compared with the invented Jesus christ:

1. Israel was under occupation by the Romans when Jesus christ was invented.
2. Jesus christ is not a Jewish name. 
3. Jesus christ was not written about in a Jewish language.
4. The headquarters of Christianity is in Rome and not in Jesus christ own town Nazareth.
5. Christians say Jesus has a Jewish name, a Greek name and an English name.
6. Jesus christ did not ask anyone to write down the things he said.
7. The Jews in their Talmud do not have Jesus Christ in it but this: "On the eve of Passover, they hanged Yeshu. And the herald went out before him for forty days, saying, 'He is going to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and declare it.' But they did not find anything in his favor, and they hanged him on the eve of Passover."

By comparing the two you can see that those who invented Mohammed did a better job than those who invented Jesus christ.
All the historians you quoted did not show that the Christians were following a Jewish man from Nazareth.
Tacitus mentioned that Christians originated from Christus. According to the Historia Augusta quoted from a letter from Egypt in AD 134 that: "There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis" (The Four Tyrants, VIII.1).

So you are the illiterate and a Mr Nobody that just believes in a character of a storybook that was invented and wasn't even properly done.

What's your point? You realize you have not been able to make a single point? And you have nothing to back up your feelings.
Let's take just one of the things you wrote to show the shallowness.
You claim that Jesus did not ask anyone to write about him. How does that prove that he did not invent Christianity?
Then you said Christians say Jesus has a Jewish name, a Greek name and an English name.
You are just all over the place without making any point.
Calm down and make your point. You seem to worse than Mr Nobody

sonmvayina:
They already have a covenant with God that was for ever. They have a national religion called Judaism....
It is based on their covenant with God., they where warned that anybody bringing any other ideology should be excommunicated from the society.

(Looking at the context of their Torah )

Foolish talk.
The Arabs had a convenant with their gods yet Mohamed established a new religion and ideology.
Please make some sense.
I have based my argument on recorded history while your argument is based on nothing. You have very little education on the topic. But instead of you to learn and increase your know you go about making arguments.
It's such a shame

sonmvayina:
So what you saying is nobody actually saw him.
All you providing are hear say.....

So, there is actually no one who saw him and seemed it to write something down.
Why did he not write something down for everybody. That would have clinched it. Now we have 4 poorly written accounts and a dumb oo(Paul )

That's why we call you Mr Nobody. I listed historians but you base your argument on nothingness.
I choose to believe these renowned historians than a proud unknown entity on Nairaland.

Softmirror:
Lol you are just arguing without sense. Abeg rest!

Any idiot can claim the other person is arguing without sense so the fact that you said it doesn't make it so.
Again, unlike you, I don't argue with emotions. I look and data and prove. That's something you can learn.

Softmirror:
You mentioned Kano. I have you a recent example of Kano lol. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

What if I give you thousands of examples of christians that visited Kano without becoming Muslims, will that change your mind?
By the way, that includes me and many of my family members.
Oga your parents sent you to school for a reason. Learn to use empirical evidence and stats before making generalizations.
And you can use some traveling, that would give you experience and wisdom.
Meanwhile, below is a link to show you the number of Muslims converting to Christianity in iran. Remember, it's punishable by death in Iran.
[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iran#:~:text=Significant%20numbers%20of%20Muslim%20converts,between%20800%2C000%20and%203%20million[/url].

Softmirror:
Did you also read about the high ranking police man who converted to Islam at Sanusi's palace?!

Is that also a story?

I am telling you. There are Christians who convert to Islam simply because of there experience during their pilgrimage to Israel.

Oga how old are you? Honestly, what is wrong with you?
Everyday, a number of Muslims convert to Christianity and also the other way. Please how is that important in our discussion.
To you, christians go to Israel and see Muslims then they convert. How is that making sense? You should stop listening to beer palour news. It's making you less intelligent.

Softmirror:
Is that all the list of 'popular' Churches 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂. You are funny o.

You really have many problems. You claim people change from christian to Muslim because the saw many Muslims in Israel. How do you think?
Then anyone who goes to Kano should become a Muslim because Kono has even more Muslims than the entire Israel. Shame

Bobodee09:
Take it easy on the hate before it completely blind your soul.

What is your local government chairman doing ?? Have you called him out??

It is easy to know you guys from that side....always agitated for nothing and know how things should be done in other people house.

You are a small fry to engage insults with.

You just can't stop playing your hand.
Now you begin to attack my lga without even knowing where I am from.
My boy you have big problems. You are even ready to go to war just to defend a politician yet you are hopeless.
I am too big to be playing the my local government is better than yours game with you. As I said, evil people like you are the reason why the country is backwards.
You would rather fight me than fight your politicians.

brain54:
You know how to off woman pant...

Kiss and lick bottom plate.

But you no know road go hospital?

Here be like clinic?

Best answer ever