₦airaland Forum

QuinQ:
I mean, compare West with with West (which includes Alaska), East with East, etc.
But it's a phenomenon that has a mame - SAD!
End of story.

This your theory is extremely complex and impossible to explain.

I mean, how come New York and New Jersey have lest suicides than Texas and Florida

[quote author=FxMasterz post=138132352]Not the ability to give something a name. The ability to name multiple things, infact 100s of them in one day and keep the memory of each animal named without recording them anywhere is a feat.
Chatgpt can name 100s of things in one day and keep the memory of every one of them. Again, the bible did not record how many years it took Adam to name all the animals and if was able to keep the memory of all of them.



You don't understand my point.

If Adam and Eve don't know good and evil, then, they'll do good and evil without knowing it. They'll commit evil without knowing that they committed evil. That's going to be a chaotic world. And, that means they are the forbidden fruits without knowing it was evil to eat it. Hence, God was not supposed to judge them since He created them that way. They'll just do anything and when then do evil, thru wouldn't know it's evil.
No,
You are using your logic to decide how one who doesn't know good or evil should act. Its not like you have met such a person before
In the Garden of Eden, they did not have the choice of evil. Again, why are you finding it hard to accept the teachings of the bible? Did the bible not state clearly,
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Should I believe you or believe God?

[quote author=FxMasterz post=138132403]Of course he is. You can ask those who kidnapped and criminaly taken children away in a sack.
I feel you have never had a baby before. A robot will do everything you ask, but your baby will do the opposite of what you want. Babies are the opposite of robots. A robot, with the press of a button, will do your will, but try feeding medicine to your one-year-old.


You didn't change the word of God to claim deep things. You meditate, ask questions and seek enlightenment from the Holy Spirit to see what lies beneath the letters. Everyone claims this. But once you end up changing the word, trust me, it is not from the Spirit.





Knowledge is of many types and levels. You need to find out which type of knowledge they lacked in order to understand that scripture. And I told you that the type of knowledge they lacked was an inspirational one. The inspiration to do evil wasn't there. They didn't even realize that they can do anything of such even though they know evil exists.

In God's standard, evil or wickedness is to go against the Word of God. Adam and Eve didn't even dream of the possibility of doing that until Satan came.
Let's do something to help both of us. Remember, the tree was for the knowledge of Good and Evil. How about we look at it from the good part? Can you explain the tree giving the knowledge of good?
The Lord said man has become like us, knowing good ...
So from the Lord's statement, are you also saying that the inspiration to do good wasnt there?
You said, "They didn't even realize that they can do anything of such even though they know evil exists." Are you also saying that they didnt realize that they can do good even though they knew good exists? Please explain it from the good side.
I am listening.

paxonel:
no, that's not what i mean!

Check it, among all the people that attach themselves to their pastors and are regular in church, over 75% of them are poor people whose source of livelihood depends on the pastor.
While many of the church members who are not regular in church are self dependent.

That self dependency is what should be. Not the other way round

Now, you are saying a different thing. Initially, you said, "It is poverty that makes people want to attach themselves to other people; otherwise, you don't need church."
Are you taking that back, or are you doubling down?
Again, what do you mean when you say " attach themselves to their pastors"
Then you went ahead to decide what percentage is poor. How did you come up with you 75%?
Lastly, did it ever occur to you that the wealthy are generally much fewer than the rest of the population, so we generally have much less christian millioniares when compared to the rest of society?

paxonel:
It is poverty that makes people want to attach themselves to other people otherwise you don't need church.
These pastors are the ones that need people the most..If people ignore them, they are doomed.

Doctrines are not meant to decide by anyone, not even pastors. search the scriptures for yourself.
The most practical Christian life is not the one you live by church doctrines. It is the one you live on your own in the circular world outside the church.

You mean rich Christians don't go to church, they stay at home and search the scriptures while only the poor christians go to church.

This is the first time I am hearing this one

sonmvayina:
which apostles? is Dambuldore evidenve for voldermont or Harry potter. if Jesus is not real, same goes for the so called apostles. They are all characters in the same story.
The fact that the Gospel are written in the first person shows they where not written by eye witnesses

But you can say the same for Callisthenes of Olynthus: Alexander's official campaign historian. Alexander the great is probably a work of friction according to your logic.
Ptolemy I Soter, Nearchus, Aristobulus of Cassandreia, Onesicritus, and all the others who penned down theworks of Alexander the Great could be seen as made up by your standards.

The same goes for Pharaoh Narmer; you can consider him and all we know about him to be fiction.

How about Qin Shi Huang, don't you think he is the voldermont of China? Why should anyone believe that he or the historians who wrote about him are real?

Please show that the 3 historical examples above are not creations of friction. I want to see your logic here

FxMasterz:
If they don't know good and evil, how would they make choices?



We know how ChatGpt operates. That's different from flesh and blood naming things. That's not programming. That's intelligence. And yeah, ChatGpt is intelligent. Called AI for that matter.

But you didn't answer my question. The question is that, if they don't know good and evil, they do not deserve any punishment or curses from God for eating the fruit since they didn't even know they were doing evil.

Yes, Artificial intelligence is different from natural intelligence, so what's your point? The ability to give something a name is not one of the greatest shows of human intelligence. Even babies name things.

To your question, I already answered. Even though our kids are innocent, we still teach them consequences for their actions. After Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they were no longer innocent and could not live in their former state. The punishment God gave them was the best thing He could do for mankind. It was the only way to redeem mankind. He did it out of love and care for us.

Let me ask you, what was the worst punishment mankind received because our first parents ate the fruit?

Have I answered your question now?

FxMasterz:
A two year old is next to a robot. That's why you can control him anyhow. You can't do that to a 12 year old. You might even have to explain why you want him to do what you asked him to do. The difference is clear. Adam cannot operate like a two year old and still have the control of the world. Adam was not in that eye old state. A two year old cannot name so many animals in one day and still retain all those names in his memory. A careful study of Scripture reveals that Adam, before his fall was a super being. He was not even enticed. Love made him eat the fruits so as not to isolate himself from his wife. That's not a two year old level man.

I have not contradicted or reinvented the Scripture in anyway. Most people miss it because they read only the surface of Scripture. Whereas, there's what is called "The deep things of God." Proverbs 25:2 says "It is the Glory of God to conceal a matter (and God actually conceals a lot), but it is the honor of kings to search it out.".

Your position puts God in a rather conflicting position with His character.

Knowing good and evil in Genesis is more of experience through action than head knowledge.

I have asked you several times if the word "knowledge of Good and Evil" which is the name of a tree in Eden was alien to Adam. He didn't know what that name means? He didn't even have the term 'evil' in his vocabulary? That tree had no meaning to him?

Oga, a 2-year-old, is not comparable in any way to a robot. In fact, a 6-month-old baby is not comparable to a robot. Yes, Adam was not a baby, but he had the same innocence thats why we made the comparison.

Again, we all can do what you are doing. Anyone can change the word of God and claim to know the deep things of God, so that would not fly. I don't care if it is the deep things or the shallow things; it must be supported by scripture, not human logic.

Your last paragraph has nothing to do with the topic. The bible never recorded whether Adam knew and understood evil or not. So I advise we stick to what is revealed. As Christians, we do not add or subtract. Nothing in the bible indicates that Adam knew evil, so let's not rely on guesswork.

steadygo:
I've explained what theft and threat of physical/military coercion is to you and pointed out how those articles evidence that. You are the one who does not want to accept my definition of theft and physical coercion, which is essentially the same definition most of the world and even the US you want to defend uses in their own society. You want to use your own definition instead, which makes the US and Donald Trump innocent in your eyes. Therefore, I really cannot explain further because there is nothing further you want to see outside your own narrative.

Are we still at this?

QuinQ:
U r comparing apples and oranges. Compare different sections of the country amongst themselves. Example, Northeast - notice the warmest have the lowest rates? So also West, South, North Central, etc. Then throw in immigration and other factors.
Bottom line, common sense ought to tell you that people feel more down in damp (or rainy), cold, less-sun weather. There's even a name for it. See below

You were comparing Alaska to California. But even when you use this method you are now advocating it still doesn't work for you. The south does not have the lowest suicide rate.

QuinQ:
See below. Mind you, California has Skid Row and much more destitute and homeless/hopeless people!

Now you are comparing just 2 states vyou will never get a comprehensive result doing this. I gave you a whole list of states and countries. Comparing 2 states t8mell almost nothing.

Meanwhile, here are the top 10 suicidal states and the 10 states with the least rate. You will notice that temperature has nothing to do with this

Rank,State,"Suicide Rate (per 100,000)"
1,Alaska,28.15
2,Montana,26.65
3,Wyoming,26.31
4,Idaho,23.28
5,New Mexico,22.76
6,Oklahoma,21.79
7,Utah,21.51
8,Colorado,20.89
9,South Dakota,20.66
10,Arkansas,20.23


Rank,State,"Suicide Rate (per 100,000)"
1,New Jersey,7.2
2,New York,8.3
3,Massachusetts,8.6
4,Connecticut,9.1
5,Maryland,9.3
6,Rhode Island,9.4
7,California,10.2
8,Illinois,11.9
9,Delaware,12.8
10,Virginia,13.6

List of states in the US from warmest to coldest
1. Florida: 70.7°F
2. Hawaii: 70.0°F
3. Louisiana: 66.4°F
4. Texas: 64.8°F
5. Georgia: 63.5°F
6. Mississippi: 63.4°F
7. Alabama: 62.8°F
8. South Carolina: 62.4°F
9. Arkansas: 60.4°F
10. Arizona: 60.3°F
11. Oklahoma: 59.6°F
12. California: 59.4°F
13. North Carolina: 59.0°F
14. Tennessee: 57.6°F
15. Kentucky: 55.6°F
16. Delaware: 55.3°F
17. Virginia: 55.1°F
18. Missouri: 54.5°F
19. Kansas: 54.3°F
20. Maryland: 54.2°F
21. New Mexico: 53.4°F
22. New Jersey: 52.7°F
23. Illinois: 51.8°F
23. West Virginia: 51.8°F
25. Indiana: 51.7°F
26. Ohio: 50.7°F
27. Rhode Island: 50.1°F
28. Nevada: 49.9°F
29. Connecticut: 49.0°F
30. Nebraska: 48.8°F
30. Pennsylvania: 48.8°F
32. Utah: 48.6°F
33. Oregon: 48.4°F
34. Washington: 48.3°F
35. Massachusetts: 47.9°F
36. Iowa: 47.8°F
37. New York: 45.4°F
38. South Dakota: 45.2°F
39. Colorado: 45.1°F
40. Idaho: 44.4°F
40. Michigan: 44.4°F
42. New Hampshire: 43.8°F
43. Wisconsin: 43.1°F
44. Vermont: 42.9°F
45. Montana: 42.7°F
46. Wyoming: 42.0°F
47. Minnesota: 41.2°F
48. Maine: 41.0°F
49. North Dakota: 40.4°F
50. Alaska: 26.6°F

FxMasterz:
That means God actually created zombies. But from the look of things, that want the case. Adam consciously and intelligently named all the animals that were brought to him.

No, Adam and Eve are His children, and He gave them the one choice to choose to know good and evil or to remain innocent forever in the garden. The choice they made came with many chanleges but it also presented opportunities and great blessings.

After eating the fruit, they did not become more like satan but they became more like God. The Lord said, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil. The knowledge of good and evil is a treat of God. Again, being able to name things and the ability to choose are not the same thing. ChatGPT can name things, but it is more of a robot. So that point is not valid. Intelligence and ability to make moral choices are not entirely the same thing. That is why so many really smart people make very bad choices,

FxMasterz:
The Bible is not wrong. It's your own understanding of that statement that's wrong.

If they didn't know good and evil as you are thinking, then:

1. They were zombies. Robots.

2. Even when they were eating the fruits, they didn't know they were doing anything evil. Then why should God judge them if He created them not to know what they were doing? Then, it was injustice for God to curse them. That'll be very unjust.

And it gets even more disasterous because if they didn't know good and evil, it also means they could do good and also do evil without knowing what they did. That's a very dangerous world. It's very illogical. You can't even come to terms with such s world. That'll be a very chaotic world where the inhabitants are unaware of the chaos.

You would have to explain these two situations above if you think they didn't know.

No, I don't need to explain what you think, I only need to believe what the bible teaches and not adjust it to fit my logic. But then lets look to your points.

1. Your 2 years old doesnt know good or bad, is she a robot?

2. Again. why scolled you 2 years baby for messing up when you know she is innocent? Let's look at the judgment God gave to them.
He made them work hard; life was not going to be easy anymore. This is one of the best things that has happened to man. It has led to great innovation and creativity; we no longer depend on a garden for food. Their action also brought forth Jesus Christ, the greatest blessing ever to mankind. It does not show injustice; it shows great love.

3. Yes, they were innocent and were in a protected garden, where they did not have so many choices for good or evil. So as long as they remained in the garden under God's protection, they were not going to do some thing dangarous. (This point is just my opinion)

4. Just because it doesn't fit our logic doesn't mean we get to change the scripture. If the scripture says they knew no good or evil, we accept it without looking for a way to slim-fit the truth to fit our own doctrines.

QuinQQ:
It's not just me saying it. For people prone to depression, it gets worse in the winter, and in places like England, they get moved to a warmer place. This lady below, whenever her depression came they moved her to a warmer, sunnier place

So the cure for depression is so simple: move to warm places.
Using this Earth-scattering discovery, we can be sure that the rate of suicide in states like Arizona, Texas, and Florida would be much lower than in Alaska, New York, Greenland, Iceland, and Norway, right?

Dtruthspeaker:
Then the question is, was He slain before the world was created?

No.

Then, therefore, that message has another meaning.

Which is that His Sacrifice was is so powerful that it cleans retroactively even down to pre Adam, that is if there is any man needing saving even before Adam, it would avail him.

Exodus shows us when God gave The Command of man's salvation via the slaying of the lamb. So Christ slaying before the foundation of world did not and cannot take place before Exodus, so that is not what it means.

Yes, it means He was chosen to die even before the world was created.

The verse below explains it super clear so you would no longer be confused.

1 Peter 1:18–20
"...knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you.

In case you need more explanation
Acts 2:23" This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

So you see that Jesus Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world according to the definite plan of God. Need I say more?

Dtruthspeaker:
Fxmasterz


The question is, if Adam did not know good and evil, what then was he doing?

That is
1) were they doing good, even though they did not know it?

Or

2) were they doing evil, even though they do not know?

And the answer is that they were doing good, even though they did not know it.

If you aredoing good unknowingly, then it's not your choice. You are more like a useful machine. Just like my car that does me real good without knowing.

DeepSight:
+
Pls put aside your hatred for me, I really am interested in where you are going with this.

What's your central point?

My guy, I don't hate you. Fxmasterz seems to think the bible is wrong for teaching that Adam and Eve did not know good and evil before eating the fruit

QuinQQ:
You obviously don't get depression. There is no "choose" in depression. But a strong blast from the sun opposed to being prolongedly in a cold, damp environment can be the difference between suicide or not

Wait, are you saying that people in Nigeria don't get depression, and the cure to depression is warm weather?
If this is what you are saying, you have just make ground breaking discovery that could make you a billionaire and save millions of lives. No one knew that sunshine was the cure to depression before you came along.

See, Good never need be learnt in Adam's early days. It was a nature. Just as today, evil needs never be learnt. It's a nature. No one teaches an infant to disobey. He just disobeys. That's all. That was how Adam was. His nature was to do good. The fruit gave him a double nature. Satan didn't teach him to do evil. He only brought him into the awareness that evil can be done. I didn't get anything close to that in illustration, that's why I used the AC engineer example.
You are contradicting the bible. The bible said the fruit gave the knowledge of both good and evil. So If the fruit had nothing to go with the knowledge of Good, why was it named so? Was it also satan that brought Adam to the Awearness that good can be done? Again, if I don't have the awareness that evil can be done, then obviously, I can't choose to do evil.



As I said above, they had a nature. My position is very consistent with the Bible. What we call the Adamic nature today is the desire to do evil. The awareness to do evil and even enjoy it. Though we know that Good exists. Today , Good is hard to do but evil is very easy because it is a nature. This was the opposite of what Adam had in the beginning. Evil was hard but good was easy because it was a nature.

No, sir, your bible says they did not know Good or evil. Your position is that they had the knowledge but did not know how to go about committing that evil. Please listen to the very words of the Lord.
Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Note, He did not say man now knows how to commit evil. He did not say that man is now aware that evil can be done. He said Man now knows good and evil. So do we believe you or believe the bible?

The Bible called the tree "Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil". How can you say Adam does not know what that name means? The Bible hides deep truths to be discovered as gems. They knew evil exists but had no awareness of carrying it out. It wasn't in their nature.
Now you are talking about knowing what the name means. My 3-year-old may know the word evil, but he doesn't really know good and evil.
Yes, it is called the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." So you should know that before eating it, they did not have the knowledge of Good and evil.

From the bible we know the following
1. Adam did not have the knowledge of good
2. Adam did not have the knowledge of evil
3. Adam did not feel shame in unclothedness, just like a 2-year-old baby

DeepSight:
+
Surely you are over 70 then.

And you are 69

QuinQ:
One might not end one's life (though one also might - depression is no respecter of persons), but one might be wondering why so many of them choose that route - the ultimate vote of no confidence in a place!

It is culture; suicide is an acceptable option there; it isn't here. We choose to carry our depression to the grave, but they choose to end the suffering.

FxMasterz:
Let me give another illustration here.

You have an A/C is your house working perfectly until it became faulty.

Except you have been introduced to A/C repairs before, it would never even cross your mind to make an attempt to repair that A/C. The A/C could remain in its faulty state for years even though you know it can be repaired, you wouldn't even touch it because it never crosses your mind to even see what's inside, let alone attempting a repair. It will be there gathering dust until you call an engineer on it. Even if all engineers say they're not available for the repairs, you won't even yhi6if doing it yourself. But, once any engineer arrives and opens the A/C in your presence and he repairs it in your presence, that changes things. Next time if it has a fault (especially if the engineers say they're unavailable), you might decide,"let me me attempt this thing myself, it might be just a small disconnection "

This is the situation with Adam and Eve. They didn't even go around the tree to examine the fruits on it because it didn't even cross their minds. But once Satan (the A/C engineer) came into the picture, he taught them how to disregard God's instructions and do whatever they think is good for themselves. They now know how to carry out their own wills and do their own biddings.

This was the situation of Adam and Eve. They knew evil could be done but had no inspiration/motivation for it. This is also for Deepsight.

You are missing an entire half of the picture. Was satan the AC engineer that also taught them to do Good? Remember, it was not only evil that the fruit opened their eyes to.

Again, you seem to be writing a new bible. The bible we have says they had no knowledge of Good and Evil, but you have changed it to, " they had no knowledge of how to commit evil.

But let's stick to the good part for a while. If we must believe you, it should also mean that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of how to do good. They knew good could be done, but had no inspiration/motivation for it before satan the AC engineer, taught them

DeepSight:
+
The point is that you are asking a question which, if you think well, will lead you out of your bondage.

You boys always decide that others are in bondage. Think about your own life.
I have been asking deep questions probably before you were born and it only led me closer to the truth.

The reason why you are unbelieving is not because you ask questions, its because you have already decided the answers to your questions. Its because of your laziness.

[quote author=FxMasterz post=138109312][/quote]You are saying that Adam in the garden knew to do good but did not have the ability to do good until he ate the fruit?

The yahoo example doesn't cut it. If you don't know how to do yahoo, you don't have the choice to do it. That's simple.

The bible was clear. Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of Good and Evil.
They had no idea what good or evil was.
They didn't even realize their unclothedness.

So comparing Adam to a prospective Yahoo boy is wrong. A would be yahoo boy already knows that yahoo is wrong meanwhile, this is what the Lord said about Adam

Genesis 3.22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Note,
This lack of knowledge wasn't limited to Evil. It was an ignorance to both good and evil

QuinQ:
Does nfo below tell us anything?
If so, what?
If not, why not?
Can it possibly affect a japa decision?

Suicide is more of a cultural and maybe religions issue than it is a reflection of the socioeconomic state of a country.

That's why you don't see Gaza, Yemen, Iran and Afghanistan top the list.
You are not likely to end your life if you Japa. No fear

Dtruthspeaker:
No. You do not understand this.

Salvation via slaying of lamb came in Exodus which is even after Noah's world was washed away.

Then, the Holy Lamb was slain in Matthew's time.

So this declaration is just stating that God's Word also operates retroactively.

Just one question, was Exodus writen before the foundation of the world?
I showed you the scriptures refer to Jesus Christ as the lamb slain before the foundation of the world and you bring up exodus.

Jesus Christ was chosen to die even before creation, thousands of years before Exodus was written.

Or don't you believe your bible?

DeepSight:
+
Will you sharrrraaaaaaaaaaaap at once?
Now kneel down, close your eyes and raise up your hands.

What impudence, addressing your master in such a manner.

Sorry sir. But you dont believe the bible nah

FxMasterz:
Now, I understand you.

The knowledge that good and evil exists is different from the knowledge to be able to do good or evil. The former was what man had before eating the fruit. The latter is what they had after eating tje fruit. That's why the first murder was recorded only after that.

The knowledge of what could be done is separate from the knowledge of how to do it.

Now this is crazy, you are saying that one can have the knowledge to do good and evil without knowing what is good or evil. Haba, how is that possible?
My 10-month-old baby doesn't know good or evil, but somehow, you think she should be able to choose between doing good and evil? How nah?

You really need to explain this, clearly and carefully.

DeepSight:
+
You will end up becoming an atheist very soon.

Says the boy who doesn't believe the bible.

Dtruthspeaker:
This was one of the outcomes but you are forgetting that their living a life without eating the fruit is also an outcome.

So, there are 2 Outcomes.

And we can see that He was living and would have been living His Life based on that outcome of them not eating the fruit. So, that tells us, that He only made plans when Satan and man charged His original and first plans

Wrong.
Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If Jesus Christ was chosen to pay the price of sin before the foundation of the world, the plan was made even before the world was created. It is the one original plan of the Father.

FxMasterz:
What then are you inferring?

You don't understand my question?
I asked,
Since you believe that man needs the ability to choose, in fact, you call the ability to choose what makes life meaningful and worth living. You must agree that the ability to choose good over evil comes from the knowledge of good and evil. So what was wrong with eating the fruit that gave us the knowledge of good and evil?

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