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Kobojunkie:
So, I may have missed it but which men did your verses tell you were chosen as Sons of God before Jesus Christ?

No Christ is the firstborn but that was not the point. You claim the men in the old testament were not sons of God and I disagree. Remember you were trying to say that Abraham is not fully saved and you said he is not a son of God

Kobojunkie:
So which particular men, before Jesus Christ, where declared Sons of God?

Many in the old testament were called sons of God

Kobojunkie:
Ok.

The concept of being a son of God did not begin in the new testament. And there is this false notion that the people of old did not know and believe in Jesus Christ. Its not true.

Kobojunkie:
Pay attention.. Abraham was saved from perishing in the grave because he, Abraham, chose to trust and obey God.

Adam chose not to believe God at all and was condemned as a result.

You are now Adams judge? It was never written that Adam was an unbeliever. You need to stop saying what you don't know. You don't know Anything about Adams life out of the garden so take it easy with him.

Kobojunkie:
It is as explained.

I would list verses where God declared people in the old testament to be his sons because nothing you say is in the bible.
Exodus 4:22-23
Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Israel is My son, My firstborn. So I said to you, ‘Let My son go that he may serve Me’; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.

1 Chronicles 22:10
He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.’

Hosea 1:10

Yet the number of the sons of Israel
Will be like the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered;
And in the place
Where it is said to them,
“You are not My people,”
It will be said to them,

Even before the birth of Christ, God has chosen men to be his sons including Abraham.
“You are the sons of the living God.

Kobojunkie:
For the umpteenth time, try to understand the meaning of God's curse and judgement on mankind before you continue.

God never cursed man to varnish from the grave. The curse was that man would die hence we all die

Kobojunkie:
The question you ought to have asked instead was what was Abraham saved from? Abel, Noah, and Abraham were all granted eternal life -grace - by God because they trusted in and obeyed His commandments and statutes which He gave to them. Though they died as righteous men, none of them died as Sons of God nor were did they receive the promise of Heaven.

Salvation which we obtain Jesus Christ however, not only gifts us with eternal life simply for believing in Him, those who trust and obey Him, God's Truth, are set free from bondage to sin aka the curse itself by the Truth, and raised as Sons of God - John 8 vs 31 - 34 - Holy and acceptable vessels worthy to broach the very presence of God.

What if I show you verses in the bible where God refered to many of the people of old as his sons would that satisfy you?

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Kobojunkie:
The question you ought to have asked instead was what was Abraham saved from? Abel, Noah, and Abraham were all granted eternal life -grace - by God because they trusted in and obeyed His commandments and statutes which He gave to them. Though they died as righteous men, none of them died as Sons of God nor were did they receive the promise of Heaven.

Salvation which we obtain Jesus Christ however, not only gifts us with eternal life simply for believing in Him, those who trust and obey Him, God's Truth, are set free from bondage to sin aka the curse itself by the Truth, and raised as Sons of God - John 8 vs 31 - 34 - Holy and acceptable vessels worthy to broach the very presence of God.

You mean Abraham is not a son of God? And he is under the bond age of sin? Explain.

Kobojunkie:
Adam did not obey God's commandments and statutes.

All have sinned not only Adam so if Abraham can be saved, why not Adam.

Kobojunkie:
Well, I never said I didn't believe that all those in the grave will come forth. I instead understand who they are and who they aren't.

There who no longer exist aka perished in the grave will not be there. Instead, only those who have eternal life and sleep in the grave will be.

where was it writen that they varnished. Are you saying that if an unbelieverror is buried, he would vanish from the grave

Kobojunkie:
Abraham was not saved by Jesus Christ. Instead Abraham, like Abel, and Noah before Him, was saved by the fact that He trusted and obeyed God's commandments and statutes. - Genesis 26 vs 5

Jesus Christ came to save the living... not the dead.

Again is Abraham, Abell and Noah are saved from their sins how come Adam can't be saved from his or where they sinless?

Kobojunkie:
Abraham was not saved by Jesus Christ. Instead Abraham, like Abel, and Noah before Him, was saved by the fact that He trusted and obeyed God's commandments and statutes. - Genesis 26 vs 5

Jesus Christ came to save the living... not the dead.

Then, we don't need Jesus according to you since all you need is to trust in God to be saved. You are simply saying all those from the days of Adam did not need Jesus to be saved.
Then how come Christ is the first fruit of the grave. Why didn't Abraham save himself from the grave?
What was the purpose of sending Christ if people could gain salvation without him?

Kobojunkie:
Read the passage again. You are not told that the question was asked by an unbelieving Jew. Instead you are told that someone asked Jesus Christ how many people would be saved. That question likely came from one who believed in Jesus Christ.

Now, Jesus Christ's response, in verse 28 was not directed at the one who asked the question but instead at those who don't enter into the Kingdom through the narrow Gate that leads to Heaven.

Yea according to you, there are 2 ways to the kingdom but not according to the bible. The broad way does not lead to God's kingdom, it leads to destruction

Kobojunkie:
Read the passage again. You are not told that the question was asked by an unbelieving Jew. Instead you are told that someone asked Jesus Christ how many people would be saved.

It never said it was a believer and you need to understand who Christ was addressing. He was talking to the jews

Kobojunkie:
No he was not!

Read the passage for the answers for Pete's sake. The man who asked Jesus Christ the question may have in fact been a believer.

I totally disagree. He was teaching on the streets and he was talking about those who don't believe him

Kobojunkie:
Adam is dead. He died long before even Jesus Christ showed up so no such thing as Salvation from God's judgement was available for him to take advantage of.

All those who are dead have no more hope....since once dead, they cease to exist. Only the living have hope of salvation through Jesus Christ. Even at that, according to Jesus Christ, only the living who believe in Him have hope of salvation from the condemnation of Sin aka Death through Jesus Christ- John 3 vs 16 - 21

Abraham died before Christ also. Christ sacrifice has the power to save everyone since the creation of the world. Christmas did not come to save only those born after him

Kobojunkie:
Again, always pay attention to context....

Jesus Christ was in verse 28 speaking of the fate that awaited those who don't enter the Kingdom of God through the narrow Gate that leads to Heaven .

See where He starts in verse 24? Read what is says there. Heaven is a Domain inside of the Kingdom of God. So also is Hell.

Short answer, he was replying the Jews who were not of his flock. Do you get it now?

Kobojunkie:
1. The earth and sea gave up its dead.... does not imply all those who died since Adam will be raised or are even raisable. Recall God’s judgement as pronounced in Genesis 3 vs 16 - 22, was not meant as a semi-final judgement of some sort. No, it was God's final judgement for the unbelievers, and nowhere in scripture was this judgement reversed by God, or Jesus Christ.

So to assert that all those who perished in the grave would be raised back into existence, to be judged again by God, is to suggest His first judgement failed, rendering God's Word void and God a failure. :-

2. Let's try to keep from deviating here, shall we? The point is Paul's claim in verse 22 he clarified in verse 23 as meaning that those who belong to Jesus Christ will be raised. This instead of your original claim which was that all those who ever died since the time of Adam will be raised.

3. Regarding what is written there in John 5 vs 19 - 29, the same Jesus Christ goes on to tell you in the passage below...
... that it is His sheep that will hear His voice and respond.

4. Matthew 25 vs 40 - 46 - the wicked refers to those in His flock who refuse to obey him, the goats in His flock

5. Jesus Christ made it more than clear through several parables as well, that it is those who belong in His flock, all those who believe in Him - they have eternal life as a result - will be raised by Him in the end.

How do you understand Revelations 21.8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Kobojunkie:
1.

2. What? I don't grasp what you mean by the statement in bold at all.

3. The answer to what exactly is Jesus Christ? So, even though Jesus Christ Himself said that only those who believe in Him will receive eternal life, you are stating here, against God Judgement(the condemnation of Sin aka Death) and against Jesus Christ(only those who believe will receive eternal life) , that all men, even those who died before Jesus Christ, including Adam, will be resurrected?

The above is what you believe your Bible tells you?

4. Adam was condemned by God to die. What you are insinuating is that God's judgement was halfwitted at best , rendering God and His judgment incompetent.

If we cannot trust God's judgment in the beginning, how can we trust His judgment to come described in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46 & John 5 vs 19 - 29? What true hope do we have that God will not change His mind after all is said and done, if according to YOU, God rescinded His Word and judgment against Adam and mankind in the beginning?

Another problem is this. If God indeed recalled His judgement and curse in Genesis 3 vs 16 - 22 as you claim, why is there still suffering in the world? Why is childbirth still a thing of pain for women? Why do men still rule over wives in married? Why do we stil work and sweat to feed ourselves?

Or did you really think God's judgment only had to do with what happens when we die?

Where you under the illusion that Jesus Christ only came to save those who believe in Him from Death ? He came to save us instead from the curse all of which culminates in Death.

Let me answer your questions according to the numbers.starting from number 4
4. You say..4. Adam was condemned by God to die. What you are insinuating is that God's judgement was halfwitted at best , rendering God and His judgment incompetent[color=#770077][/color]
Not only Adam, but all mankind where condemned to die.
So if you believe you can be saved even after God has condemned all mankind, why do you think Adam is different? Do you understand me now?

Kobojunkie:
So, you believe instead that the King described in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46 prepared Hell, and can condemn devils and His angels as well as goats to eternal damnation in Hell but has no jurisdiction over Hell?

I gave you a very simple scripture in Luke 13:28

In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.
In the verse, who was Christ talking to? If you can answer this correctly that would end our argument.

Kobojunkie:
1. In John 5 vs 19 - 29, Jesus Christ informs you that those in the grave will hear His voice and raised from the dead as a result. The same Jesus Christ then went on to explain to you in John 10 vs 14 - 29 that He is the good Shepherd and His sheep know His voice and respond to Him - implying that those who are not of His flock will not respond to His voice.

Matthew 25 vs 32 there clues you in to Jesus's Shepherd status as well when it speaks of Him separating the sheep and goats - 1 Shepherd, 1 flock.

John 10.27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand
The sheep follow him not the goat. The goats disobey him, they do not follow him. They are not his flock. Anyone else thar hears his voice and follows is a sheep not a goat.

Kobojunkie:
1. In John 5 vs 19 - 29, Jesus Christ informs you that those in the grave will hear His voice and raised from the dead as a result. The same Jesus Christ then went on to explain to you in John 10 vs 14 - 29 that He is the good Shepherd and His sheep know His . voice and respond to Him - implying that those who are not of His flock will not respond to His voice.

Matthew 25 vs 32 there clues you in to Jesus's Shepherd status as well when it speaks of Him separating the sheep and goats - 1 Shepherd, 1 flock.

His flock is sheep not the goat. Thank you for bringing up John 10.
Now you need to understand that at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow.. both his sheep or the goat. He never said the goat were a part of his flock. You probably should write your own bible.

Kobojunkie:
So, you believe instead that the King described in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46 prepared Hell, and can condemn devils and His angels as well as goats to eternal damnation in Hell but has no jurisdiction over Hell?

with the bible, you don't assume, you believe what you are told. If the bible says all those in the grave would come forth, you believe it simple. Don't add or subtract remember

Kobojunkie:
So, you believe instead that the King described in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46 prepared Hell, and can condemn devils and His angels as well as goats to eternal damnation in Hell but has no jurisdiction over Hell?

First you assume hell is a part of his kingdom, that isn't in the bible. Now talking of jurisdiction, God has jurisdiction over the earth does that mean the earth is his kingdom or would you say God is the ruler of the earth?

Kobojunkie:
1. Pay attention to what Paul is saying. Stop trying to interpret but rather apply basic comprehension skills as you would when reading any book out there.

Who are the all in Adam? Everyone descended from Adam, right?
Now who are the all in Jesus Christ? Everyone who is born(again) of Jesus Christ. The all of Adam aren't the all of Jesus Christ.
Paul clarifies this in verse 23 when he directly refers to the all in Jesus Christ as those who belong to Jesus Christ.
order is of no importance to this here.

2. Again, in Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22, God cursed mankind to perish in the grave - from dust you were made and to dust you return. So, if a man dies in unbelief, what this means is man(mind, body and soul) ceases to exist , he is dust and no more. Even though a body was buried whenever, what God said is there is no longer anyone there.

So when in John 5 vs 19 - 29, you are told that all those in their graves will be raised, we know that those who perished are not there is the grave. Only those who have eternal life, those who belong to Jesus Christ's flock sleep in their graves awaiting resurrection after all.

I am the one right on Pauls word. Word for word, Paul says all would be resurrected. Verse 23 tells us the order of resurrection simple.
Wait, are you saying that the bodies of non Christian's are not in the grave? You are contradicting yourself.

So, if a man dies in unbelief, what this means is man(mind, body and soul) ceases to exist , he is dust and no more[color=#000099][/color].
Did you just make this up? Because it has no scriptural backing.
No single scripture says these things. All that are in the grave would come forth simple. Read your bible na.

Kobojunkie:
I did but you are not paying attention at all.

■ Again, you are told that you have to be born from water and from spirit in order to enter into the Kingdom of God - John 3 vs 5 - 8
■ Then you are informed that there are 2 gates to be aware of - a broad gate(to destruction) and a narrow gate(leads to true life) - and you are cautioned to enter in through the narrow Gate - Luke 13 vs 22 - 27
■ in John 5 vs 19 - 29 , you are informed that those who hear Jesus Christ's voice will be raised from the dead, and judged. Some to eternal reward whereas the others to eternal damnation/punishment
■ then in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46, you are informed that when Jesus Christ returns in glory, He will seat as king on His throne as King to judge all the people of the world gathered before Him.

▪︎ the sheep will be blessed with the Kingdom that God promised them - Heaven
▪︎ the goats will sent into the fire that burns forever—the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels - Hell

From the passage, you see that Heaven and Hell are both ruled over by the King, Jesus Christ, the one whose Kingdom it is.

None of the scriptures say heaven and hell are both ruled over by God. None state that hell is part of God's kingdom. What really is your point?

Kobojunkie:
1. Why did God kick Adam out of the garden of Eden if God's plan was to eventually change His mind - reanimate Adam back from dust and then install in him an eternal spirit of Adam's own?

2. Why would you have such hope when I didn't say anything about the righteous in all of this.... you did.

3. Absolutely none of the verses you have posted so far speak of any such. So I am not certain why you can claim them so simply by declaring it. Not a single one of the verses from even the Gospels tell of all being raised.... Jesus Christ made it perfectly clear in His teachings that He would raise those who belong in His flock ... the Kingdom of God.... not those outside of it. So again....?

4. Disobedient flock? Pay attention to what you are told in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46. The sheep and goats are of one flock... Jesus Christ's and they will all be raised and gathered to judgement. The sheep(the righteous) will receive eternal reward whereas the goats(the unrighteous/wicked) will receive eternal damnation. It is simple as that really!.

5. I think you got the reference wrong. Luke 14 vs 28 is not correct here.

The sheep and the goat are not of one flock. That is your personal opinion.
You asked a great question. Why God who raise Adam men from the grave. It's a very simple answer. Why do you think God would forgive you are raise you from the death. Remember, the wages of sin is death and all men have sinned.
But the answer is Jesus Christ. Through Adam, we all are sentenced to death and through Christ we are are ressurected. Isn't that what your bible says.
Remember Adam is not the only one that has committed sin, we all have. He is not the only one that was published with death, we all are. Hence if you are not surprised at your own ressurection, why are you shocked that Adam would be ressurected. Is it not the same God that created you two? Have you not committed sin just like him? Where you not also sentencedo to death just like him? If God can change his mind for you, then why not for Adam?

Kobojunkie:
You are kidding, right? Pay attention to the context of the conversation so you don't keep jumping all over the place abeg!

Why are the goats also considered wicked? If you read closely the judgement spelt out against then in Matthew 25 vs 40 - 46, you would see why they are referred to as wicked aka unrighteous.

We both agree the Goats are wicked
They are not of his flock. He never said the goats are part of his flock. Where did you get that from?
Read verse 32
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
It says he would gather all nations. Not only his flock do you understand. Where did you get that from?

Kobojunkie:
All you have done is prove you also read Paul's letters out-of-context.

Paul never said in any of what you quoted that everyone will be resurrected- in both cases He explained that instead it is the dead in Jesus Christ that would be raised from the dead. Essentially what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 vs 22 is that through Adam, Death came to all those born of Adam, but through Jesus Christ, eternal life comes to all those born(again) through Jesus Christ - only those who are born(again) through Jesus Christ have eternal life and so will be raised. Notice how this is completely different from your earlier assertion..

Then in verse 23, Paul clarifies that indeed only those who are born(again) through Jesus Christ will be raised.

As for me, I never also never said all the dead from Adam will be raised. I said those who belong to Jesus Christ's flock will be resurrected and they include all those who believe in Him - His sheep hear His voice and will be raised by Him to judgement after He returns - John 5 vs 19 - 29..

Please, stop, separate your delusions from that which is written so you can see.

I do not know the version of bible you use. In my version, 1 cor 15.22 says
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. It did not talk about the born again ok. Verse 23 says it would haopen turn by turn with Christ first then his followers next.
Then John 5. 28-29 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

It says All that are in the Grave.. please tell me the version of bible you are using so I can be quoting from it since you don't agree me mine.

[quote author=Kobojunkie post=109120001]1. If you had carefully read what I wrote there, you would have seen where I pointed out that the broad gate does indeed lead to destruction whereas the narrow gate leads to true life.... both of them right there in the Kingdom of God.

Where do you think Hell, the place of eternal damnation/punishment/destruction is? It's in the Kingdom of God. I mean, why else would Jesus Christ urge us to enter the Kingdom of God through the narrow gate, this as opposed to entering through the broad gate?

2. Ofcourse the wicked will be alive for eternity to get their eternal punishment/damnation etc. By virtue of their believing in Jesus Christ, much like demons do, they have eternal life which they will spend in Hell with [/quote
Please sir, when you say stuff like 'hell is in the kingdom of God', it's always better to prove it with scripture. If not, you are just expressing a personal opinion.

Kobojunkie:
There are 2 gates into the Kingdom of God - Matthew 7 vs 13 - 14

■ the broad gate that leads to destruction which the multitude will enter through
■ the narrow Gate which only a few will find that leads to true life
Ofcourse, Jesus Christ expects us to enter through the narrow Gate - Luke 13 vs 22 - 27, but not all will. However, all those who enter into the Kingdom of God are born-again, that is born of water and from spirit - they all have eternal life

Now back to your question, the wicked are those who entered into the Kingdom of God through the broad gate - they are counted as part of His flock. They are those who Jesus Christ considers His enemy - they refuse to obey His teachings and commandments - even though they may claim to have Jesus Christ as their savior. They have eternal life and so will be resurrected when Jesus Christ returns - they too hear His voice. But as Jesus Christ made clear in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46, & John 5 vs 19 - 29, only the sheep will pass on to eternal reward; the goats will be passed on to eternal damnation instead.

Baba, the broad does not lead to the kingdom of God, or are we quoting from the same bible. My Bible says it leads to destruction. You really need to read these passages before posting them so you stop misquoting.
Secondly we are not arguing about Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46, & John 5 vs 19 - 29. We both agreed that only his sheep would gain eternal reward.And the wicked get eternal punishment. But they wicked need to be alive to get there punishment. There would be weeping and gnashing of teeth like the bible teaches.