Amberon11:
You are dumb.
Get well soon.

And you're foolish.

Get stuffed.

UyiIredia:


But consciousness is the means by which observation is done. How then can you claim it is observed?

It is observed subjectively. The person experiencing it can observe it.

UyiIredia:

An irrelevant question.

How is it irrelevant? The topic title is about the most powerful argument for your God.

UyiIredia:

It follows. But I can see why you wouldn't want to agree to that. To preserve your precious atheism.

How does it follow?

UyiIredia:

God is a metaphysical truth and metaphysical questions happen to fall under the category of things science cannot answer.

No, your God is made up.

UyiIredia:


If it is then one can observe consciousness via the senses. Do you agree this is the case?

Yes.

UyiIredia:

Meh.



I'm not confusing anything. Consciousness as experienced is different from the neural processes that account for it.

And at which point does your God come in?

UyiIredia:

It follows. Conscious beings come from conscious beings therefore conscious humans arise from a non-contingent conscious being. I've already explained that the reason it's non-contingent is because it should require no explanation.

No that doesn't follow. Your conclusion should be that humans come from conscious beings. You're smuggling stuff in that shouldn't be there.

You didn't explain anything, you merely smuggled in an assertion. You've not explained how your God managed to arise from a non-conscious being. Secondly, humans come from non-conscious sperm and egg.

UyiIredia:

Science can't answer all questions. There are some things that science in principle can never answer e.g. aesthetic questions

Is your God an aesthetic question? Why does he keep retreating to areas still under investigation?

naijadeyhia:



Jack my boy sorry but that argument supports it and is not against it. Just because you want it to be against it so bad your brain selectively read the article. Did the water in his brain suddenly receive neurons and begin to function like the brain?

It is against your God having anythign to do with consciousness. The cerebrospinal fluid wasn't acting like the brain and note that he had below average IQ. It really counters your theory about a sould remote-controlling a body,

naijadeyhia:

Even the flimsy scientifc explanation said, (IT SEEMS) which is simply an imaginative assumption since they found it baffling yet needed an escape route.

Looks like you're not familiar with how scientists hedge their statements rather than issuing proclamations like you're used to seeing with your God who has often been wrong.

KingEbukaNaija:


This actually supports our argument bro

No it doesn't.

UyiIredia:


I have considered it. Consciousness is not a physical process. It is an immaterial effect of a physical process going on in the brain.

No, it is subjective but is still a physical process.

UyiIredia:

No they aren't right. I have already said that consciousness runs against materialistic atheism. And because of the immaterial nature of consciousness. Science, in principle, can't explain it as science deals only with the physical.

You can say that all you want, but you're still wrong.

UyiIredia:

Evolution deals with how physical things change. Consciousness not being physical can't be explained by evolution.

You're confusing the subjective nature of consciousness with the process itself. You do realize that consciousness is available in stages.

UyiIredia:

Here's the reasoning behind the inference to God as the cause of consciousness.

P1) Humqns are conscious
P2) Conscious beings always come from conscious beings
C) Humans must arise from a non-contingent conscious being.

If it's non-contingent, then its consciousness doesn't need an explanation.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises. There's no talk about non-contingent conscious beings in your premises.

How does your second premise explain your God? Which conscious being did he come from? Besides, the sperm and egg aren't conscious but the human at a certain point in its development is conscious. Thus your second premise is the failure that keeps on failing.

On a side note, I always find it fascinating how your God keeps on retreating into areas still under investigation by science.

UyiIredia:
It's actually one of the arguments I posted earlier on this thread

https://www.nairaland.com/2353987/three-arguments-gods-existence

The argument from consciousness: Consciousness is not a physical thing. It's also called awareness and that's not physical. It's not a physical thing that you can observe and measure but is the means by which you observe and measure. It's critical to my argument that consciousness be understood as something immaterial, which it actually is, going by its definition. If you think about it all knowledge stems from consciousness because to truly know anything you must be aware of it. You cannot know what you are not aware of.

Have you considered that consciousness may be a process?

UyiIredia:

Now if atheists are right then there should be no consciousness at all. In a purely physical world consciousness would be the anathema, something strange. But there is consciousness and therefore the atheist is not correct. Consciousness being immaterial cannot be explained by physical means.

Well atheists are right and there is consciousness so where do we go from here? You've simply made an argument from incredulity. Finding it amazing that we're in a physical world and we're conscious doesn't mean you're automatically right in asserting your God.

UyiIredia:

It did not evolve since evolution applies to physical beings. It does not spontaenously emerge because emergence typically deals with how complex PHYSICAL systems arise from simpler precursors. Atheism being materialistic in nature has nothing to offer to explain mental awareness. But the theist believing in an eternal conscious God has a means to explain consciousness. And that my friends wraps up my argument.

Cc thehomer Seun cloudgoddess Blaqsmith dalaman ichommy HardMirror johnydon22 onetrack joseph1013 Kay17 plaetton Davien ValentineMary lepasharon reallest freecocoa K9blunt Amusaopeyemi

Why couldn't consciousness have evolved? Our close cousins alse express behaviours similar to what we express under certain circumstances. Though we won't consider them as being as conscious as humans are.

How does your God explain consciousness? Mere assertions aren't arguments. How can your God even be conscious without a body? How do you know he is conscious? How does he even know he is conscious?

KingEbukaNaija:


It was not - you atheists are always dogmatic about your claims or opinions

What was inaccurate about what I said?

KingEbukaNaija:

The Jewish Law is different from a moral law .

Who gave those laws to the Jewish people? Don't the laws hold anymore?

KingEbukaNaija:

Why did you strikethrough my comment? It was accurate.

According to your Bible, your God thinks children who talk back to their parents should be killed. Do you agree with that law?

KingEbukaNaija:


Is that an oblique statement indicating that God makes his moral laws arbitrarily ?

Objective morality means God's moral laws guide me from going astray or erring . His laws tell me whats right or wrong . That means even if societal laws assent to a particular way of life , I can disagree if it is at variance with the moral laws from God .

No it isn't. Though your God's moral laws are arbitrary.

Since God is a person or people, his moral laws are therefore subjective. Whether you think they tell you what is right or wrong doesn't change this fact.

How exactly do you know what God's moral laws are? Does he speak to you using voices?

KingEbukaNaija:


Subjective morality : It allows seeing what is right or wrong from a personal perspective . And in most cases , anyone who subscribes to subjective morality allows the society to tell him whats right or wrong - societal laws detect morality .

I subscribe to objective morality - moral laws come from God .

I don't subscribe to subjective morality.

You do subscribe to subjective morality you just don't seem to recognize it. The "moral laws" from your God are subjective to him or you. Therefore you subscribe to subjective morality.

KingEbukaNaija:


Do you subscribe to subjective morality ?

Depends on what you mean by subjective morality. What is it? And do you subscribe to it yourself?

analice107:

The difference between you and I is that, I admit to my sins and asks for forgiveness. But you say you have no sin, but God is sending you to hell anyways.
My joy is that, you admit you'll end in hell. But, why do think you'll end in hell when you an atheist?

So are you a rapist, a murderer, a liar, an abortion provider, a thief or a greedy person?

I don't think I'll end up in hell, I'm just humouring you.

analice107:

O, Wow. Look at that. I think My God wants this very important man to go to hell.
Yes, and why not? He is responsible for all your stupidity. He made you commit all those sins, all the stealing, lying and murder, all the women you raped, all the abortions you sponsored. Yes, he is responsible. After making you commit all these sins, he is sending you to hellfire.
And, yes, you are really a catch.

Your God is responsible since according to many of you, he knew what I would do even before he created me.

I've not stolen, I've not been lying, I've not murdered anyone, I've not raped any mend or women and I've neither undergone nor sponsored abortions. But your accusations are more revealing about yourself. Do you see yourself as not being forgiven for having performed those actions?

I know I'm a catch yet you and your God are running scared of me. The best part is that most of you who call yourselves Christians will end up in hell with me. Looking forward to seeing you in hell. Please make sure you introduce yourself to me in hell.

analice107:

LOlzzz. You must think yourself a catch. Pls don't change your mind. Hahahahahahahaha. Small pikin

Of course I'm a catch you child. Looks like you think your God wants me to go to hell. In that case, why should I bother with such a malicious agent?

UyiIredia:


Your mind is too steeped in illogic and unreason. There's no hope of change for you ever.

Said the ignorant to one wiser than himself. The fact that you have poor arguments and defend a man made entity shouldn't make you despondent. If you have faith and your God answers prayers, why are you afraid?

KingEbukasBlog:


Mister , I asked you for proof - this does not mean I didn't know .

Yes it does. If you know, why would you act as if you didn't know? That woudl be dishonesty of a high rank.

KingEbukasBlog:

Alright .

You're welcome. I hope you've learned a lot from this exchange.

winner01:
Welcome home!!! I praise God for your life my brother. Which church do you attend my brother, which part of Nigeria do you stay, we can discuss on email. God bless you.
Now I also pray and hope that Loj Blackjewelry Sirwere RobinHez FrancisTony donnffd Antiparticle Krystalzkris freecocoa OgundeleT TheDauraMallam, thehomer K9blunt ( f ), joywendy( f), herald9 , MarieSucre reallest PAGAN9JA krattoss hahn Queed, dabosuker Johnydon22 realtem sorextee Dekatron djdoxxx kolajamesjnr Liekiller SIRANDREWS , seun plaetton , menesheh wiegraf , finofaya Redlyn , Longstride, Rainess rinrin23 tangled Misogynist2014 Pr0ton , davien teempakguy dorox Joseph1013 cloudgoddess sweetcocoa dalaman hahn menehsheh frank317 plaetton ifeness realmindz lilbrown007 et al. will follow.

He advised you to come and preach and keep preaching. You're welcome to try to preach to me. Let's see if I change my mind.

KingEbukasBlog:


How does asking you to prove something imply ignorance

Thinking that before Christianity, people thought incest was a good idea is breathtaking ignorance.

KingEbukasBlog:

God is the wisest being in existence .

He clearly isn't if he thinks that torture is a good idea.

KingEbukasBlog:

Only God judges and his judgement determines who would gnash his teeth in Hell or enjoy the guerdons of salvation in Heaven

Unless he is arbitrary, Abraham will be in hell with the rest of us. Be happy that your God isn't arbitrary.

KingEbukasBlog:


Prove it . Where is proof ?

Are you really this ignorant? You think that before your Christ, people thought incest was a good idea? See the reference to China here.

KingEbukasBlog:

The thread .

How did it work?

KingEbukasBlog:

Hell is a deterrent . And deterrent aint threats or a show of wickedness . Being thrown into Hell is the comeuppance for aberration .

So you agree with your God that torture is a good idea.

KingEbukasBlog:

God is the giver and taker of life . Eternal torture in Hell is a deterrent .

And you think that torture is a good idea.

KingEbukasBlog:

This guy ! When someone tells you to stop engaging in sexual immorality - this means stop engaging in either fornication , adultery , masturbation , sexual abuse , rape , orgies etc . The bible says that menstealers will go to hell - this means that kidnappers , slave traders , slave catchers , slave dealers etc will face " eternal torture " .



Do you now understand ?

Father Abraham had slaves. I guess he should be expected in hell then. And he should expect eternal torture.

winner01:
I need not argue anything with you. The thread is just to expose the muderous tendencies of atheists.

In other words, you don't have arguments, you just want to moan that people are rude on the internet. Glad that we have that out of the way. Would seeing examples of Christians being rude on the internet reveal the muderous tendencies of today's Christians? Because we know of those Christians who like the "fall down and die" gospels.

ireneony:
I doubt if there are any atheist in Africa. .

Why?

KingEbukasBlog:


I want the readers to closely examine the morality of an atheist . That's why you give an answer and your reason .you know this and you are trying to dodge the question .

Jesus preached love .

Jesus also preached his desire to torture people for eternity. Jesus' father thought slavery was a good idea. He also thought killing 6 month old babies was a good idea. You know these things that Jesus and God support are bad ideas yet you're willing to think they're good ideas because your God proposed them.

KingEbukasBlog:


Honestly , I think Christian moral values influence the way an atheist sees morality . That's why you guys cringe at the mention of incest .

You may think that but you need to realize that even before your Christ was allegedly born, lots of population groups didn't think incest was a good idea.

KingEbukasBlog:

The plan worked . I'm so happy it did .

Well , If you are someone who loves good morals and wants to raise a good family , Jesus has to be the foundation for he is the source of morality . I'm afraid , atheists will raise dysfunctional families . Il post a comment I saw on dailymail - this reader was sad because of the decline of moral values in Britian . Britian was built with the Fear of God in them and now everything is upside . It wasn't a jeremiad , it was succinct - il post it later .

See thehomer , no matter how you try to project God as evil , he'll always remain good and we all know that He is good . The bible deplores slavery . And for the last time , the comeuppance for all abberants including Menstealers - kidnappers , slave traders , slave catchers - is Hell .

Am sure you were oblivious to that verse of the bible and you are angry that it condemned slavery . Face the chagrin of your defeat like a gentleman !

What plan?

Why should I think that the Jesus who sent people to hell is a reasonable foundation for morality? Your Jesus thinks it is a good idea to torture people for eternity for not believing in him.

Unless you think commanding genocide including the killing of 6 month old boys, explaining how to treat slaves and eternal torture are good ideas, then I see no reason to consider your God as being a good character.

I wasn't oblivious of that passage, I was pointing out the fact that according to the Authorized KJV, youi're adding to the Bible. Be careful or you'll add to your own punishments.

winner01:
Ok, ive heard.

This militant atheist thinks only "retarded" Christians have children. Is that why countries with high atheist populations tend to have low birthrate? Atheists a dying breed as nature 'favours faithful': "The research suggests that the key fact is simply that the more religious people are, the more children
they tend to have. This is because most religions place a high value on child-bearing, suggesting it is a holy duty. Without religion, by contrast, atheists often see far less point in having children and so have smaller families or none at all."

References: http://www.scilogs.eu/en/blog/biology-of-religion/2011-01-06/atheists-a-dying-breed-as-nature-favours-faithful-sunday-times-jan-02-2011-jonathan-leake-full-draft-version

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/11/study-more-educated-tend-to-be-more-religious-by-some-measures/

And more quote hunting and moaning that people don't like other people on the internet. You just need to grow up and state what argument it is that you wish to make.

winner01:
Another Atheist says belief in God is a "mental Illness". Next, they'll be wanting to treat you for
your 'illness'. Way to follow in the footsteps of Stalin, Lenin, Mao, and Castro.

And more quote hunting and moaning that people don't like other people on the internet. You just need to grow up and state what argument it is that you wish to make.

KingEbukasBlog:
Mao Zedong is a Chinese communist and founding father of the People's Republic of China . As we all know he led and saw through the Great Leap Forward - a social and economic campaign whose goal was to transform the country from an agrarian economy into a socialist society through rapid industrialization and collectivization. An Agrarian economy is based on the country's agricultural system - producing and maintaining crops. Funny enough Ethiopia is already adopting this system as they plan to stay ahead as Africa's fastest growing economy . This campaign lasted for three years 1958-1961 .

Mao's intentions translate to the benefits of socialism

1. The system eliminates greed

2. The Needs of Everyone are met

3. Goods are easily mobilized especially in times of disasters in order to ensure the safety and well being of every citizen affected .

4. There are no monopolistic practices . We all know how disadvantageous such practice is .

5. There are no business fluctuations . No discrimination between investment and savings and resources are readily available

So the above or more were Mao's intentions and it would put Mao's China in the forefront of civilization and development . Notably , Albeit Einstein - one of the world's greatest minds - was a supporter of socialism .

Effects of His Intentions

1. Great Chinese Famine which ended the lives of millions of people plus the torture given to millions who were not complying to Mao's vision .

2. It was estimated that 1 to 3 million people committed suicide

3. Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

4. China actually did experience economic growth at some point

5. He revolutionized midwifery, saving the lives of countless rural women and their babies, in addition to giving women the ability to get divorced.

6. The Chinese praise Mao for the efforts he made . Without His efforts , there wouldn't have been a new China

7. Mao understood that the pernicious power of Confucianism was permeating Chinese society and hindering its advancement, so he tried to combat it by launching mass movements, culminating in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution in 1966.

8 . China’s rail system, which depended on coal driven trains, suffered - this made life difficult for the Chinese during that time .

So I ask ... Is Mao Zendong a good or an evil man ? As a christian , the obvious answer is NO but to an atheist his morality is contentious . Their intelligent answers will obviously help us scrutinize subjective morality - the type of morality all atheists subscribe to .

Answers from Seun, Plaetton , Johnydon22 ilovetheline, JackBizzle, Kay17, AgentOfAllah, Ayomikun37 , hahn , sonOfLucifer , frank317 muskeeto , Decker , PastorAIO , ValentineMary , Pyrrho , braithwaite , dragonEmperor , theoneJabulani , lepasharon , cloudgoddess , ifenes , brigance , stephenmorris , thehomer , dalaman

No circumlocution , give your answer and reason please .

Don't know and don't care but if you think he was evil, your God is worse. What exactly is the point you're trying to make?

KingEbukasBlog:


Until you tell me if Mao was good or evil , I wont reply you . But you are needed here bro -.> https://www.nairaland.com/3202859/nairaland-atheists-incest-right-wrong

I've already said I don't know. Do you want me to know stuff that I don't know?

If you like, assume he was evil. What is your point? If you assume he was good, what would your point then be?

KingEbukasBlog:
Incest is sexual activity between family members or close relatives. This typically includes sexual activity between people in a consanguineous relationship. Atheists subscribe to subjective morality, so the question should not be a problem.

When I mean sexual activity , I mean consensual sexual activity just for the pleasure and not for procreation .

A more lucid question : Would you sleep with your mum if it is consensual ?

Who says atheists agree with the idea of subjective morality? It can even mean different things to different people.

You're really obsessed with incest when there are pretty clear examples of evil activities permitted by your God like slavery.

felixomor:


That bible must be called "the homer" version. Wow, so much for enslavement.

No, the Bible is th Authorized King James Version of the Christian Bible.

felixomor:


No matter how you choose to twist the bible or take it out of context, there is no place in the bible that God approved slavery.
If you are talking about things people did in the bible and using it as basis to veto it as God's approval, thats pure fallacy!
For example Abraham lied in the bible, that does not mean God's approval of it.
There is only one solution: please read the bible completely before attempting to state facts. You will only end up in fallacies if u continue that way.
If you dont have the patience to read it thoroughly, then rest.

I've read the Bible but I don't think you have. It looks like you don't know what is in your own Bible. Take the time to read it. Your God gave directions on who can be enslaved, how to enslave them and how to treat slaves.

If you don't have the patience to read your Bible thoroughly, then rest.

KingEbukaNaija:


Lol . You need to wake up to reality . You are drowned in the illusion atheism is creating , by the time the effect wears off , it might be too late .

And you've drowned in the illusion of Christianity with the belief that whatever your God says is right. That's why you think slavery is a good idea.