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 Christianity Etc › Re: Once Saved Always Saved Is A False Doctrine. Beware! by Ukutsgp(op): 1:20pm On Sep 18, 2014 |
B. Bible Examples of Christians Who Sinned & Stood Condemned. The Bible not only warns us to be on guard lest we fail to meet the conditions for remaining faithful, but it also mentions specific people who did fall. This is not just a theoretical possibility. It is a practical reality. In fact, it has happened to many people, and could happen to us if we are not diligent. Genesis 3:1-6 - Adam and Eve God said if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would surely die (2:16,17). 3:4 - Satan said if Eve ate, she would not die. She ate and we know the result. This event is used in 2 Cor. 11:3 as an example to us of the danger of falling into sin. Satan was the first one to teach the doctrine of "impossibility of apostasy." God stated the consequence of sin, but Satan denied that the consequence would follow. Today God has stated the consequences of sin, and Satan uses preachers to deny the consequences. The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" was originated and first preached by Satan himself. The nation of Israel The Old Testament contains countless examples in which God's people sinned and fell from God's favor, both individually and collectively. (Lev. 26; Deut. 28-30; I Sam. 12:10; chaps. 10-16; 28:15,16; I Chron. 28:9; 2 Chron. 15:2; 24:20; Isa. 1:28; Jer. 2:19,32 cf. Psa. 9:17; Jer. 3:6-14; 8:4-13; 9:12-16; Hos. 9:10; cf. Acts 7:37-43; Rev. 21:  The fact these are in the Old Testament does not diminish the lesson for us. The New Testament expressly warns us that the same principle applies to us - I Cor. 10:1-12; Heb. chap. 3,4. With regard to the possibility of God's people sinning and being lost, the Old and New Testaments teach the same. Christians who lost their faith Hebrews 3:12 warned of the danger of developing an evil heart of unbelief like Israel. Many New Testament examples show people to whom this very thing happened: 2 Timothy 2:16-18 - Hymenaeus & Philetus strayed and overthrew the faith of some. (Faith cannot be overthrown in those who do not first possess it.) 1 Timothy 1:18-20 - Timothy should hold the faith and not be like Hymenaeus and Alexander, who made shipwreck concerning the faith and committed blasphemy. 1 Timothy 5:8 - Anyone (including a child of God) who doesn't care for his family has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. What happens to people who lose their faith? Faith is essential to salvation. Those who lose it are no better off than those who never had it. Hebrews 11:6 - Without faith it is impossible to please God (the application in the context of this book is to those who had faith but turn from it - 3:12; 10:30). Revelation 21:8 - Unbelievers will be in the lake of fire. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Once Saved Always Saved Is A False Doctrine. Beware! by Ukutsgp(op): 1:17pm On Sep 18, 2014 |
We are warned not to become entangled again in the world (v20), turning from the holy command (v21). If we do, we are worse off than we were before we knew the truth (v20). We are like a dog returning to vomit or a sow returning to mire (v22). [cf., v1,3] But if "once saved, always saved," then this dog is much better off after returning to the vomit than he was before. Romans 6:12-18 - We must not let sin reign in our bodies. These were baptized into Christ (v3,4), set free from sin, and become servants of righteousness (v18). They are warned not to let sin reign in their bodies nor present their members as instruments of sin (v12,13). The result of that would be death (v16). This must be spiritual again, since all die physically. The wages of sin, even for those here addressed, is death, in contrast to eternal life (v23). Hebrews 6:4-8 - We must avoid falling away. This is addressed to those once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift and the good word of God and were partakers of the Holy Spirit (v4,5). We are warned not to fall away (v6). If they continue in this pattern of life (implied), they cannot be restored. They are crucifying Jesus afresh and putting Him to an open shame (v6). Their destiny is to be burned like a field of thorns (v8). Revelation 3:5; Exodus 32:30-33 - We must avoid having our names removed from the Book of Life. Those whose names are in the book of Life will enter the eternal city, but those not in it are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 21:27; 20:12-15). But people whose names are in the book, may be removed because of sin (Ex. 32:30-33). Those guilty of sin CANNOT enter the city (Rev. 21:27). But those who overcome will not be blotted out of the book (Rev. 3:5). [Cf. Rev. 22:18,19] Why would God continually warn of the danger of sin and being lost if it cannot happen? Do human parents warn their children to be careful how they flap their wings lest they fly too high and crash into the moon? God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33). Why waste time warning us about dangers that cannot happen anyway? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Once Saved Always Saved Is A False Doctrine. Beware! by Ukutsgp(op): 1:10pm On Sep 18, 2014 |
Galatians 6:7-9 - We must sow to the Spirit, not the flesh. This is addressed to members of the church (1:2), sons of God by faith (3:26). [Cf. 4:6] We will reap as we sow. If we sow to the spirit (i.e., if we produce the fruit of the Spirit - 5:22-25), we will reap eternal life (v8). If we sow to the flesh (do the works of the flesh - 5:19-21), we reap corruption (6: , which is the opposite ofeternal life. In this case, we cannot inherit the kingdom of God (5:21). We reap eternal life if we don't grow weary in doing good (v9). Note: " Be not deceived." Yet "once saved, always saved" is a doctrine that deceives many into thinking they will still reap eternal life even if they sow to the flesh. 1 Corinthians 9:27 & 10:12 - We must control our bodies and avoid sinning like Israel did. 9:25-27 - Paul, who was an apostle and therefore a child of God, was striving to gain the imperishable crown (v25). He had to discipline his body and bring it into subjection lest he himself be disqualified (NKJV; "a castaway" - KJV; "rejected" - ASV). (KJV elsewhere translates this word "reprobate" - 2 Cor. 13:5; Rom. 1:28; 2 Tim. 3:8; Tit. 1:16). 10:1-12 - Israel is an example showing us the importance of avoiding sin. The people to whom this warning applies ("we," "us"  include the church, sanctifiedsaints (1:2; cf. 1:9), and the apostle Paul. This is an example and admonition to us (v6,11). We should not lust after evil (v6), commit idolatry (v7), commit fornication (v8), etc. One who thinks he stands, must take heed lest he fall (v12). In context, this means he will not receive the crown Paul described (9:25-27). 6:9,10 show that people guilty of these sins won't receive the kingdom of God. Note that a person who believes in "once saved, always saved" thinks he cannot fall. This passage is addressed to just such people and shows that they are the ones in the very greatest danger that they will fall! Hebrews 3:6,11-14; 4:9,11 - We must avoid rebelling like Israel. This is addressed to "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" (v1). Israel failed to enter God's rest because they lacked faith and obedience. We too must guard lest we have an evil heart of unbelief, departing from God (v12), and become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin (v13). To partake with Christ, we must hold fast our confidence (faith) firm to the end (3:6,14). If we do so depart, we will not enter the rest God has for us (4:9,11). Note that receiving the eternal reward is conditional on continued faithfulness. Hebrews 10:26-31,39 - We must avoid willful sin. This is speaking to those who know the truth (v26) and have been sanctified by the blood (v29). It is discussing the Lord's judgment on "His people" (v30). We are warned not to sin willfully (v26). As long as we go on sinning willfully (NASB - v26), there is no sacrifice for sin. (This is not discussing what will happen if such people repent and change but what our condition is as long as this conduct continues.) Such people are trodding underfoot God's Son (v29), doing despite to the Spirit of grace, counting the blood by which we were sanctified unholy (v29). Their only future is fierceness of fire (v27), sorer punishment than physical death under the law (v28f), vengeance from God (v30). This is why we must not shrink back to perdition (v39). 2 Peter 1:8-11; 2:20-22 - We must grow in Christ instead of returning to the world. 1:8-11 - This is spoken to those who have obtained like precious faith (v1), escaped the corruption of the world (v4), and been purged from old sins (v9). We must add to our lives the qualities listed (v5-7). If we do, we make our calling and election sure so we don't stumble (v10), but we receive the abundant entrance to the everlasting kingdom (v11). Note there is security for the believer, but it is conditional on growing and adding these qualities. 2:20-22 - This is still talking to people who have escaped the pollution of the world (v20), knowing the way of righteousness (v21). [cf. v1,15] |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Once Saved Always Saved Is A False Doctrine. Beware! by Ukutsgp(op): 1:07pm On Sep 18, 2014 |
The purpose of this study is to examine what the Bible says about falling from grace. It would be very comforting if this doctrine were true. However, if it is not true, then it would be a very dangerous doctrine because it would give people a false sense of security. People would not be on their guard against sin, and may not see any need to repent of sins, if they thought they would still be saved eternally despite their sins. If however they will be lost for sins they do not repent of, then such people are in grave danger. Surely it is important for us to know what the Bible teaches. We can all agree that there is security for those who serve God faithfully. If we study God's word diligently and honestly, if we strive to overcome sin in our lives, and if we diligently repent and ask forgiveness for our sins, then we definitely have assurance and security regarding our eternal destiny. The question, however, is whether it is possible for a child of God to cease being faithful, to become disobedient, fail to repent, and so be lost. Part 1: Evidence that a Child of God Can Sin and Be Lost A. Passages Warning Christians about the Danger of Sin The Bible teaches that there are conditions a person must meet in order to receive forgiveness and become a child of God. Likewise there are conditions one must meet to continue faithful after becoming a child of God. Many passages warn us to be careful to meet these conditions else we will not receive eternal life. In each case we will note first that the passage is addressed to children of God. Then we will note that we are warned to avoid sin or we will be lost. John 15:1-6 - We must bear fruit or be cast off. Disciples are described as branches "in Christ" (v2,5, etc.) who have been cleansed by His word (v3). But if they don't bear fruit and abide in Christ (v2,4-6), they will be taken away (v2), cast into the fire and burned (v6). (Abiding in Jesus and bearing fruit requires obedience - I John 3:6,24; John 15:10; Gal. 5:19ff; etc.) Romans 8:12-17 - We must live according to the Spirit, not the flesh. This is addressed to children of God (v16). We are warned not to live according to the deeds of the flesh but be led by the Spirit. If we live according to the flesh, we will die (v13). This cannot be physical death since we all die physically regardless of how we live. This death is the opposite of the life we receive if we follow the Spirit. To be heirs of Christ, we must be led of the Spirit (v14) and suffer with Christ (v17). It is conditional and depends on our life. |
| Christianity Etc › Once Saved Always Saved Is A False Doctrine. Beware! by Ukutsgp(op): 1:05pm On Sep 18, 2014 |
Many people believe that, when a person becomes a child of God, afterward it is impossible for him to so sin as to fall from grace and be eternally lost. This doctrine is one of the five major points of Calvinism. It is often called "the eternal security of the believer," "perseverance of the saints," "impossibility of apostasy," or simply "once saved, always saved." Several major denominations officially believe the doctrine, though some do not emphasize it and as a result the members may not be aware of it. The Westminster Confession adopted by most Presbyterian churches, states: "They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved … Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan … fall into grievous sins…" (Book of Confessions of the United Presbyterian Church, 1967 Ed., Sec. 6.086-6.088). The Philadelphia Confession, adopted by many Baptist churches, is almost identical to the above. Sam Morris, "Pastor" of the First Baptist Church, Stamford, Texas, expressed the doctrine in its most extreme form as follows: "We take the position that a Christian's sins do not damn his soul! The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul … All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debts he may pay, all the ordinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may perform will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger … The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul." (Morris, A Discussion Which Involves a Subject Pertinent to All Men , pp. 1,2; via Handbook of Religious Quotations, p. 24) |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Nigeria Popular Pastors That May Lead You To Hell If You Follow Their Doctrine by Ukutsgp(m): 9:06am On Sep 18, 2014 |
i like this guy sha. 90% of what he preaches is d truth. let us beware of false doctrine that leads to hell. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "What Does The Bible Say About The Virgin Mary?" by Ukutsgp(m): 8:09am On Sep 18, 2014 |
"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his BRETHREN, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his SISTERS, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?" Matthew 13:55-56 This verse confirms people in Jesus' home town that watched Jesus grow up from a young man helping His father in his trade as a carpenter, to doing great miracles right before their eyes. They remembered Jesus lived there as well as the fact that He had four brothers. PLUS they still have Jesus' SISTERS living among them. How many sisters did Jesus have? The Bible doesn't say. Why are they still living there? Did they get married and settled down in their home town to raise a family? It makes no difference. The fact is the Bible accurately records that Mary had many children. God says "While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his BRETHREN stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy BRETHREN stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my BRETHREN? and he stretched forth his hand TOWARD HIS DISCIPLES, and said behold my mother and my BRETHREN!" Matthew 12:46-49 Many teachers of Catholic doctrine believe that Jesus called only those that believed in Him His brethren. Did you notice the statement made to Jesus BEFORE He calls all in the room His brethren. A person comes to Jesus to tell Him that His mother and brethren are out side waiting on Him. Jesus took this opportunity to illustrate to the believers (disciples) and apostles in the room that THEY are considered brethren now because they believe in Him. Jesus actually says in Matthew 19:29 "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." This verse is for believers that have to deal with unbelievers close to them. Does this verse not show Jesus calling those people that are not believers BRETHREN as well? It is no different than today, people from all walks of life call there fellow man brothers or sisters. What of the term, brothers in crime? And yes, just like back then, we have brothers and sisters in Jesus. Just because Jesus explained that if they believe in Him they become His brethren, does not say that Jesus denied His siblings. He just gained more brethren on this day. God says "And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and WITH HIS BRETHREN." Acts 1:13-14 These verses are now calling the Apostles by name, and then Mary the mother of Jesus with His brethren are now mentioned. Are not all in the upper room Brethren? Yes they are, it's just illustrated here that Jesus' Mother and siblings are in the room as well. What better way to illustrate the fact that Jesus has an earthly family as well as His Church family. Think about it, all the Apostles are mentioned by name, THEN Mary and the BRETHREN of Jesus are mentioned. Is this an attempt to show the two types of brethren? Indeed it is. God says "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand. His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. For [there is] no man [that] doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world. For neither did his brethren believe in him. John 7:1-5 This I must concede is my favorite verse on this subject. How can it not be realized that "His brethren" here is BLUNTLY speaking of siblings? The argument is mute for those that would claim, "brethren" = "disciple" as well. How? The BRETHREN in this passage are telling Jesus to be on His way and go perform His miracles so that His "DISCIPLES" will see it "For neither did his brethren believe in him." God says "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James THE LORD'S BROTHER." Galatians 1:19 How blunt can you get? Is this not an obvious verse? We found earlier in Matthew 13:55 that one of Jesus' brothers was named James, and here we see James is mentioned again as The Lord's Brother. By the way, this is the same James that was inspired by God to write the book of James in the New Testament. God says "And he knew her not till she had brought forth her FIRSTBORN son: and he called his name JESUS." Matthew 1:25 Did you notice that the Bible calls Jesus the firstborn son of Mary? Why would the infallible Word of God call Jesus the Firstborn if He is supposed to be the last-born, as well as the one and only son of Mary? According to Catholic doctrine this can't be. But I ask, how can Catholic doctrine call Mary a virgin until death when the Bible states the exact opposite numerous times? Notice the word "till" in the above verse? The verse preceding this one tells us that "Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: " [Matthew 1:24,25] It seems rather plain. Joseph went ahead and did as the Angel told him to and married Mary. Then we see the Bible tells us Joseph "waited" to consummate the marriage "till she had brought forth her firstborn son" This easily proves Mary was no virgin. It is easy to say that her "firstborn" actually means she had MORE. And that declares openly that she had children other than Jesus.. 11 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "What Does The Bible Say About The Virgin Mary?" by Ukutsgp(m): 8:07am On Sep 18, 2014 |
Ubenedictus: so you are ignorant of the fact that the bible wasnt written in english?pls mary is nt a virgin. and she had other sons and daughter. pls i have better things to do with tym now. 2 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Do Catholics Contravene The 2nd Commandment Of Idolatry In Exodus 20:4 by Ukutsgp(m): 12:16pm On Sep 17, 2014 |
vest: so when in your house,butik,muzium,littered with graven image of ur love ones nd other tins. that is idolatory in ur "clever" mind abi?! smh.when you close ur eyes nd tak a plate of fud in front of u nd pray to the fud is nt idolatory abi? when you knel nd bow in front of your bible,wal.chair,tableetc is nt idolatory abi?.When God Ask Moses In Num21:8, To Cave A Sapent Is Nt Idolatory Abi? King Solo In 1king6:23-28 To Mk Calv Images Of Angels mr unduluded mind do u knw the meaning of a shrine or temple if u dnt knw my body is the shrine of the holyspirt nd the Church is made up of difrent shrines. my dear you ar the one provoking ur fustrated close minded life by urself nd gues what it wil lead u 2 HATEpls can u name one apostle that bow and pray before a carved image in d bible? why didn't d bible use shrine? pls God's presence is not in rcc. it is d devil that is now residing there. i pity those who wud nt leave dat dead place now. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Do Catholics Contravene The 2nd Commandment Of Idolatry In Exodus 20:4 by Ukutsgp(m): 12:02pm On Sep 17, 2014 |
felixzo1: your coments does not change the fact about the true and one universal , catholic and apostolic church. it has existed for generation and will continue for years to come worshiping the one true God.u can continue ur idolatrous worship if u like. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Do Catholics Contravene The 2nd Commandment Of Idolatry In Exodus 20:4 by Ukutsgp(m): 11:57am On Sep 17, 2014 |
vest: The Same Place We Got The Book Of Luke,mark Nd Philemon 4rm.u hv nt answered my question. who took d photograph of Jesus at that time including that of mary? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "What Does The Bible Say About The Virgin Mary?" by Ukutsgp(m): 11:50am On Sep 17, 2014 |
Ubenedictus: probably because the bible wasn't written in english but in greek.probably? u are nt even sure. continue to invent stories. u can tell me that other words agree with english but nt until. u see how myopic u are? 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Protestanisms Greatest Heresy. by Ukutsgp(m): 10:03am On Sep 17, 2014 |
Ubenedictus: it seems according to you all Christians from the 1st century to the 16th century are going to hell for idolatry.... Have you ever ask yourself "what if you are wrong?"i cant be wrong. i know that through d bible. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Do Catholics Contravene The 2nd Commandment Of Idolatry In Exodus 20:4 by Ukutsgp(m): 9:56am On Sep 17, 2014 |
felixzo1: your coments does not change the fact about the true and one universal , catholic and apostolic church. it has existed for generation and will continue for years to come worshiping the one true God.where do u people even got the picture of Jesus and Mary from? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Do Catholics Contravene The 2nd Commandment Of Idolatry In Exodus 20:4 by Ukutsgp(m): 8:59am On Sep 17, 2014 |
felixzo1: in your own human wisdom they worship idols. thank God you are human not God.when ur church is littered with carved images of who knows who, that is nt idolatry in ur deluded mind? when u bow, pray and sacrifice to those unknown gods, isn't that idolatry? is rcc even better than a shrine? nonsense. pls dnt provoke me this morning. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Protestanisms Greatest Heresy. by Ukutsgp(m): 8:43am On Sep 17, 2014 |
the rcc worship idols and carved images. it is not of GOD |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Do Catholics Contravene The 2nd Commandment Of Idolatry In Exodus 20:4 by Ukutsgp(m): 8:25am On Sep 17, 2014 |
felixzo1: indirctly you are saying catholic to church every day to worship images,, of saints and holy mary. if you believe that you are truly blind.see beyoud your nosemy friend. what i posted was clear enough for even primary school pupil to understand. u know what i'm talking about. the rcc worship idols not GOD. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "What Does The Bible Say About The Virgin Mary?" by Ukutsgp(m): 8:19am On Sep 17, 2014 |
btoks: Dude, it does not say this in the bible, this is your own interpretation. I notice you've ignored my points and questions but expect me to comprehend your assertions. Will look forward to your considered response otherwise I'm out, peace.why is it difficult for u to understand the word 'until' from the op's first post. if u understand, u will nt ask me lame question. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Do Catholics Contravene The 2nd Commandment Of Idolatry In Exodus 20:4 by Ukutsgp(m): 11:11pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
clem305D: Hi folks, am a catholic from a staunch catholic background. I have been troubled over this issue for some time now and need some peer reviewed opinion on it. In Exodus 20:4 it states "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments". Now in the catholic church we have various associations such as; Legion of Mary, Holy infant Jesus, Block Rosary... among many others. Most of these associations have images they use in veneration and worship.Sadly, our Catholic friends and family members have been indoctrinated to believe that the use of statues, relics, and other articles is acceptable and even necessary for worship. They have been taught by the Roman Catholic Church that the images and icons used in the church are not actually “worshiped” but are simply “visual aids” to worship. The Catholic Church long ago began making allowances for the idolatrous use of images by the way they reference the Ten Commandments . In the Catholic catechism and in most official Catholic documents, the first and second commandments are combined and then summarized with “I am the Lord your God. You shall not have other gods beside Me.” Suspiciously absent is what comprises the second commandment in the Protestant numbering of the Ten Commandments: “You shall not make any graven images.” While it is understandable for “you shall not make any graven images” to be considered an aspect of “you shall not have other gods beside me,” based on the history of idolatry involving graven images throughout biblical and extra-biblical history, it seems unwise to not include “you shall not make any graven images” in every listing of the Ten Commandments. The omission seems especially suspicious in light of the fact that the Roman Catholic Church has long been accused of the idolatrous use of graven images. There are good reasons for not using images in worship. First of all, the use of physical images to “aid” worship violates the command to worship God “in spirit and in truth” ( John 4:23-24 ). Also, no one knows what God looks like, and John 1:18 is clear concerning this truth: “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” And, because God is Spirit ( John 4:24a ), it is irreverent to delineate Him as an iconic representation. No one alive knows what Jesus Christ looked like in the flesh, and, since there were no cameras when He walked the earth, the only description of His appearance is found in Isaiah 53:2-3 , which says that He had “no stately form or majesty.” The lack of a physical description of Christ has not stopped the Catholic Church from depicting Him. Throughout Catholic churches, institutions, convents, monasteries, and every other Catholic- affiliated building and shrine, there are paintings of God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Mary, Joseph, and a myriad of canonized saints. There are statues in abundance; there are relics, such as bone fragments, said to have belonged to certain saints. Some shrines even contain pieces of wood purported to be part of Jesus’ cross. All of these things are held to be sacred objects worthy of high regard. The idolatry is rampant and fairly obvious to non-Catholics, yet Catholics do not believe they are committing idolatry. They have been cleverly taught to believe that they do not worship these idols; they simply “venerate” them. The problem is that “veneration” still gives honor and reverence to something and/or someone other than God; therefore, veneration is idolatry. Yes, Catholics do practice a form of idolatry, in violation of God’s command. The best way to reach our Catholic friends with the gospel of grace is to pray that the Holy Spirit will draw them and that they will respond to the Spirit’s leading. Their eyes and hearts are blinded by the false teaching they are continually hearing, and, until they begin to seek the truth, we must leave it in God’s capable hands. As we pray, we must keep loving them and trust that God will prepare the soil of their hearts ( Luke 8:11-15 ). Never give up hope; the Holy Spirit does miracles every day. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "What Does The Bible Say About The Virgin Mary?" by Ukutsgp(m): 11:08pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
btoks: sola scriptura sentiments.There is a historical basis to whatever you read in the bible, you can't strip this away and think you've got the right interpretation 2000 years after the event. The bible doesn't even tell us what books are in the bible - so your .'where in the bible' question has no validity. Where does the bible say Mary had other children?after d birth of Jesus they had sex and she was blessed with other children. why is dis difficult for u to comprehend? 4 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Do Catholics Contravene The 2nd Commandment Of Idolatry In Exodus 20:4 by Ukutsgp(m): 10:54pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
[quote author=clem305D]Hi folks, am a catholic from a staunch catholic background. I have been troubled over this issue for some time now and need some peer reviewed opinion on it. In Exodus 20:4 it states "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments". Now in the catholic church we have various associations such as; Legion of Mary, Holy infant Jesus, Block Rosary... among many others. Most of these associations have images they use in veneration and worship. My question is; is that tantamount to idolatry? Don't get me twisted here because am not in any way doubting the origin or authenticity of my religion because in Matthew 16:17-18, Jesus replied "Blessed are you Simone son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh of blood, but by my father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it". Please no castigation's, rather lets build our faith okay!!![\quote] Sadly, our Catholic friends and family members have been indoctrinated to believe that the use of statues, relics, and other articles is acceptable and even necessary for worship. They have been taught by the Roman Catholic Church that the images and icons used in the church are not actually “worshiped” but are simply “visual aids” to worship. The Catholic Church long ago began making allowances for the idolatrous use of images by the way they reference the Ten Commandments . In the Catholic catechism and in most official Catholic documents, the first and second commandments are combined and then summarized with “I am the Lord your God. You shall not have other gods beside Me.” Suspiciously absent is what comprises the second commandment in the Protestant numbering of the Ten Commandments: “You shall not make any graven images.” While it is understandable for “you shall not make any graven images” to be considered an aspect of “you shall not have other gods beside me,” based on the history of idolatry involving graven images throughout biblical and extra-biblical history, it seems unwise to not include “you shall not make any graven images” in every listing of the Ten Commandments. The omission seems especially suspicious in light of the fact that the Roman Catholic Church has long been accused of the idolatrous use of graven images. There are good reasons for not using images in worship. First of all, the use of physical images to “aid” worship violates the command to worship God “in spirit and in truth” ( John 4:23-24 ). Also, no one knows what God looks like, and John 1:18 is clear concerning this truth: “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” And, because God is Spirit ( John 4:24a ), it is irreverent to delineate Him as an iconic representation. No one alive knows what Jesus Christ looked like in the flesh, and, since there were no cameras when He walked the earth, the only description of His appearance is found in Isaiah 53:2-3 , which says that He had “no stately form or majesty.” The lack of a physical description of Christ has not stopped the Catholic Church from depicting Him. Throughout Catholic churches, institutions, convents, monasteries, and every other Catholic- affiliated building and shrine, there are paintings of God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Mary, Joseph, and a myriad of canonized saints. There are statues in abundance; there are relics, such as bone fragments, said to have belonged to certain saints. Some shrines even contain pieces of wood purported to be part of Jesus’ cross. All of these things are held to be sacred objects worthy of high regard. The idolatry is rampant and fairly obvious to non-Catholics, yet Catholics do not believe they are committing idolatry. They have been cleverly taught to believe that they do not worship these idols; they simply “venerate” them. The problem is that “veneration” still gives honor and reverence to something and/or someone other than God; therefore, veneration is idolatry. Yes, Catholics do practice a form of idolatry, in violation of God’s command. The best way to reach our Catholic friends with the gospel of grace is to pray that the Holy Spirit will draw them and that they will respond to the Spirit’s leading. Their eyes and hearts are blinded by the false teaching they are continually hearing, and, until they begin to seek the truth, we must leave it in God’s capable hands. As we pray, we must keep loving them and trust that God will prepare the soil of their hearts ( Luke 8:11-15 ). Never give up hope; the Holy Spirit does miracles every day. Cheers 3 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Abortion=murder by Ukutsgp(op): 10:43pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
Abortion Kills a Child! "And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child , and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction." —Genesis 16:11 Notice that the Word of God doesn't say, "thou art with fetus." No, It reads "thou art WITH CHILD." Abortion is cold-blooded murder , and kills an innocent healthy CHILD. There is a Biblical CURSE upon every doctor, nurse, politician, clinic, Supreme Court justice, lawyer, judge, family member, mother, and father involved in the murder of a CHILD through abortion ... "Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen." -Deuteronomy 27:25. We are warned in Matthew 12:36-37, "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." If God is going to judge men for every idle word spoken, then how much greater shall He judge those who murder little babies!!! Listen to what Jesus said concerning those who harm children ... " It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones " (Luke 17:2). Woe unto the abortionists ... CHILD KILLERS!!! |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Abortion=murder by Ukutsgp(op): 10:40pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
mamarika: Abortion is a grave sin!!!Christians please desist from it, if you have ever done please genuinely repent from it .we Can't deceive God.i have been a victim(though it hurts ♍ε̲̣̣̣̥ τ̅☺ admit this)but thank God ℓ̊ have come to the knowledge of truth Απϑ asked God for his mercies which by the grace of God he has shown me.u have spoken well. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "What Does The Bible Say About The Virgin Mary?" by Ukutsgp(m): 10:36pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
btoks: your premise of ."what husband and wife live and die without consummating..." doesn't hold at all because one could ask the same question about the virgin birth, miracles etc.this was no ordinary couple. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "What Does The Bible Say About The Virgin Mary?" by Ukutsgp(m): 10:32pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
btoks: your premise of ."what husband and wife live and die without consummating..." doesn't hold at all because one could ask the same question about the virgin birth, miracles etc.this was no ordinary couple.so what type of couple are are they? pls forget ur early church tradition here. d bible said mary had other children. it is either u will believe d bible or forget it. so where did the bible tells u dat joseph had married before? una dey lie sha. 4 Likes |
| Politics › Re: $10m Found In CAN President's Jet Caught In SA by Ukutsgp(m): 6:02pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
this news should not grace the front page due to its sensitive nature. |
| European Football (EPL, UEFA, La Liga) › Re: Borussia Dortmund Vs Arsenal : UCL (2 - 0) On 16th September 2014 by Ukutsgp(m): 5:43pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
arsenal fans making mouth since 1900BC |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Abortion=murder by Ukutsgp(op): 4:54pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
i advise all ladies wherever they are to stop abortion. it is a sin against God. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: If A Christian Dies Unbaptize Will The Person Go To Hell ? by Ukutsgp(m): 4:49pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
Ubenedictus: heresy confirmed!was an adult mentioned as part of the household? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "What Does The Bible Say About The Virgin Mary?" by Ukutsgp(m): 4:45pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
The present pope, John Paul II [died April 2, 2005], has dedicated himself completely to Mary. During his visit to Vancouver, B.C. in 1985, the special souvenir edition of B.C. Catholic carried a full page color photo of the pope under the caption of, Totus Tuas which, in Latin, means "all yours." The following explanation was then given, "When Karol Wojtyla [John Paul II] was consecrated bishop of Cracow by Pius XII in 1958 he took, 'Totus Tuus' (all yours) as his motto, thus presenting himself to Mary. In his first Urbi et Orbi message immediately after being elected pope he said, 'At this difficult hour, full of fear, we must turn our thoughts with filial devotion to the Virgin Mary who always lives in the midst of Christ and exists as his mother. We must repeat the words, Totus Tuus which 20 years ago were inscribed into our heart and soul.'" Pope John Paul II has visited many of the major Shrines to Mary. He attributed his escape from death at the hands of a would-be assassin and the overthrow of communism in Eastern Europe to the intervention of Mary. Millions of Catholics are making pilgrimages to the various Marian shrines, seeking and often claiming miracles of healing and answers to their prayers to Mary. New apparitions of Mary and special messages from her are being claimed in various parts of the world. Yet, there is absolutely no Scriptural foundation for any of these beliefs or practices. Mary was indeed a virgin in fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy that Christ would be born of a virgin (Isa. 7:14). She was a godly woman, but not sinless. As with all true believers in Christ, when Mary died, her soul and spirit went to heaven, but her body awaits the resurrection. She did not bodily ascend to heaven as did Jesus Christ. Nothing in Scripture indicates that prayers were ever offered to Mary nor that she was worshipped by anyone. Most of Roman Catholic teaching concerning Mary is based entirely on human tradition and contradicts God's Word. 7 Likes 1 Share |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "What Does The Bible Say About The Virgin Mary?" by Ukutsgp(m): 4:43pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
Some Roman Catholic observers believe it may not be much longer until Mary is officially proclaimed "Co-redemptrix with Christ." In fact, the premier issue of the Roman Catholic publication Catholic Heritage displayed a front page with the title: "Mary, Mother of the Church." In a Question and Answer column the question is asked, "At the foot of the cross, Mary shared in the mystery of the passion. True or False. Answer: True. Mary united her sorrows to those of her Son. The sorrowful and immaculate heart of Mary bled with her Son for all of mankind. For this reason, we invoke her under the title of Co-redemptrix." During the past forty years, each pope has done his part to increase Mary's influence in the Roman Catholic Church based completely on tradition rather than upon the Bible. In the August 28, 1975, issue of the official Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, Pope Paul VI, speaking of the ceremony celebrated the day before in honor of the Madonna at the Feast of the Assumption of Mary, said, "Her venerate image, known as 'Salus Populi Romani' , was carried in procession from St. Mary Major's as part of the Holy Year ceremonies, so that the overflow crowd of pilgrims, coming from all parts of the world, could see it and thus increase their devotion to her. In this way we should all be reminded of the meaning and practice of the cult of Mary, inseparable from the unique and central cult of Christ ... Let us pray to her with humble, trusting and childlike faith." |
| Christianity Etc › Re: "What Does The Bible Say About The Virgin Mary?" by Ukutsgp(m): 4:37pm On Sep 16, 2014 |
catholic believe that Mary never had anymore children after giving birth to Jesus and that she remained a perpetual virgin until she died. Why are we to believe that Joseph and Mary never had sexual intercourse? What husband and wife live and die together without consummating their marriage? These are speculative questions, but is is obvious Mary could not have remained a virgin if she had other children as recorded in the Bible. (Matthew 13:55-56; Mark 6:3). 3 Likes |
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