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Foreign Affairs / Re: Blacks Don't Have a Civillization: Proof by usermane(m): 12:29pm On Oct 01, 2020 |
3. Blacks' Lack of Community Ambition If you ask, say Europeans what they hope to accomplish by 2030, they may speak of cure to certain diseases like HIV or renewable energy. If you ask blacks the same question, the response won't be as interesting. Nations and tribes that are/have a civilization care to preserve, innovate and build upon their community to sustain and carry on their civilization to future generation. Black people don't do any of these. You look at the state of poverty, disease and ignorance in large swath of sub-saharan Africa today and you wonder how any civilization could let itself deteriorate to such an extent. |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Blacks Don't Have a Civillization: Proof by usermane(m): 12:29pm On Oct 01, 2020 |
1. Blacks' Lack of Historical Literature What relevant literature from ancient black empires or kingdoms do blacks posses today? Name one? A hallmark of civilizations are their surviving classical texts or records. Such literature are relatively scarce among blacks, if not absent. 2. Blacks' Lack of Historical Figures Mention black philosophers or scientists like Aristotle or Mendel? You most probably can't. Civilizations often have these kinds of individuals among their ancestors. |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Blacks Don't Have a Civillization: Proof by usermane(m): 12:28pm On Oct 01, 2020 |
When we speak of civilization in literal term, you may define it as any settlement - hamlet, village, small town etc. In that case, of course, blacks have a civilization. But you talk civilization in terms of economic power, scientific and technological advances in current or previous era, then blacks as I explained, don't have a civilization. If you're reading this post, you might have been told that blacks have or had a prestigious civilization, that have been overlooked by western scholars or were raided and destroyed by European and Arab invasion. In the following paragraphs, I'll present several evidences to the contrary. |
Foreign Affairs / Blacks Don't Have a Civillization: Proof by usermane(m): 12:28pm On Oct 01, 2020 |
Happy Independence Day! In my previous posts, I wrote at length that Black people do not have a civilization. And I got a bunch of detractors. Blacks Don't Have a Civilization Blacks Don't Have a Civilization 2.0 |
Islam for Muslims / There Is No Morality Without Religion by usermane(m): 6:49am On Aug 29, 2020 |
Actually this thread should've been titled, "There is no such thing as Morality." Since, at the end of the day, there does not exist an objective frame of reference for deciding right and wrong. And even religion is not an objective frame of reference. But that said, at least religion offers the only frame of reference for morality that is consistent and has been unanimously trusted for ages. Which brings me to the reason for this thread. The opponents of religions often say that we don't need religion or revelations to decide right from wrong, and that all we need is Reason and Empathy. For instance, they may say that "We know intuitively that murder or theft is wrong, without reading the 10 commandments." So, the atheists or deists assume that in absence of religion, a form of moral unity may be attained by a population of humans based upon reason and empathy. And this is deeply flawed. Reason isn't consistent, let alone objective outside the laboratories of natural sciences. For instance, is it moral or immoral for a destitute, homeless, 3 weeks pregnant woman to abort her fetus? Human reason is severely limited by experience and intelligence. Empathy is deeply subjective because it is hampered by mood, emotion and most importantly, your sensitivity. For instance, why is killing an innocent person immoral, but killing a sheep moral? So, where then is morality derived? One that is consistent and least subjective. It derives from an authority, such as the word of God - the scriptures. This is where religion comes in. In the end, religion don't offer an ideal or accurate moral system, but neither does atheism. What is respectable about religion is the unanimity on moral issues it brings about, which becomes a stepping stone for an harmonious society. |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Why Atheism & Non-religion Never Built Civilization by usermane(m): 6:39am On Aug 10, 2020 |
budaatum: No. Atheists are not minority because theists children refuse to reason. They're minority because they can't organize themselves as theists do. Thankfully, Mohammed was atheistic to his parent's beliefs or the religion he promoted would have been about the idols his parent's worshipped How do you know that? Qur'an simply stated that he started out misguided. budaatum: Please read and digest the paragraph properly. It doesn't seem like you understand the point I'm making. I suggest you learn about Jesus Christ and Socrates, both who were atheistic to the religion of their day and were murdered because of it. Most would abandon their difference of opinion rather than die for their beliefs. OK. So why are you saying all this? Why so suddenly confrontational? Because you don't like the cold harsh facts I presented in a previous thread about the Black people, isn't it? I suspect because you left this comment only after leaving an aggrieved comment on that particular thread. If you're not happy with one of my views, that's fine. But check your feelings, and don't bear grudges. |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Why Atheism & Non-religion Never Built Civilization by usermane(m): 7:40am On Aug 09, 2020 |
tintingz: Well, you were the one that implied atheist don't have or never had a civilization because they have always been scanty. And I'm explaining why they're scanty to begin with. Given the context, I'm not appealing to any fallacy here. 3. Why are theists majority? We can see from the past campaign how some Religion was spread via conquests and invasion. OK? Majority of those conquered by religious invaders were not atheists, but by far mostly theists of a different religion from their invaders. You can counter that theists force their religion on atheists, and I won't disagree with you, but keep in mind, if atheists organize themselves as a collective unit, they'd be able to resist the theist from bullying them out of theism. But we know this never happens because atheism in itself won't allow atheist to organize themselves as theists do. 4. Why are Atheists minority? Well Atheism only has one position which is "lack of belief in god or gods" that's all, there's no priest nor scripture Atheists follow, there are no rituals nor doctrines, what most Atheists affiliated with is humanism and other philosophical ideology. We seem to agree on this. Except that I see it as a limitation of atheism that prevent atheists from founding or building civilization, while you see nothing wrong with it and assume atheism can build a civilization notwithstanding. 5. Yes Religion creates a community, bringing people together and indoctrinate them with different practices and fear, it also causes disasters in history. There is good and bad to everything. But even then, you think only religion indoctrinates people with practices and fears? Don't you see that those disasters are part of human nature and with or without religion, we'd have disasters? today more people are becoming irreligious according to a stats Of course. But some of them are returning back to religion as well. Last year I resolved that the Qur'an was not perfect enough as the Book of Life. I grew disillusioned with religion and found appeal in anti-religion, but it didn't last. Things are too grey even at this point to easily write off religion as it is. 6. The idea that Atheists can't build civilization is false, the humanists movement are filled with heretics, irreligious people that want better well being for humanity using scientific evidence, reasoning, knowledge etc. OK. We hope to see them build a civilization from the grassroots. To be pragmatic though, humanism is nothing new. It is hard to be optimistic when the humanists had over 5000 years to achieve this, but they never did. What has worked in organizing communities that would later evolve over generations to civilization, was religion. Knowledge and science can't answer every question. And how we interpret scientific revelation may differ from person to person. Here is a pinch test, what is the humanist position on the legality of abortion? What about addressing poverty? China is not even a Religious state but Atheist state and they're unified, developing and inventing new technology. China only became officially atheist about mid twentieth century with the communist revolution. But Chinese masses are not practically atheists and are deeply spiritual though they ascribe to milder and less prescriptive form of religions like Buddhism, Confuscianism and Taoism. The foundation of modern China is the Qing dyansty, which wasn't atheist. Today most countries use secularism system to govern the society and not theocracy. So I still haven't gotten your whole point. Ironically you didn't get my point. Before the contemporary civilizations or countries began to govern by secularism, they had to organize themselves with religion. It's like the American civilization of our time. The US is a secular country today, but the US wasn't born yesterday. The original founders of the US who established the communities that would later mature into the civilization it is today were Trinitarian Protestant Christians. Humanism can achieve this without Religion infact I find humanism way better than Religion. If humanism was promoted very early the world would have dropped many barbaric and unreasonable practices. Humanism wasn't born yesterday. And, all religions we know of were attempt at humanism, aside the fact that they are ascribed to "God". Now we can't really be certain that humanism wasn't promoted early. Perhaps it did, but it either didn't appeal to the people or it failed to live up to the expectations at the time, and thus it simply died out. |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Why Atheism & Non-religion Never Built Civilization by usermane(m): 7:13am On Aug 09, 2020 |
AbdulSleeky: OK? But there has always been atheism. It came from the same prehistoric time as theism. 2. With the industrial/enligtenment age came secularism. An age that involved rapid development in science, philosophy and technology. OK. As long as you distinguish secularism from atheism or irreligion, they're not the same. 3. Intelligent people are also a minority in any human society. Atheism being a minority is not something to be worried about. First, I hope you are not interchanging atheism and intelligence?! Atheist being an unorganized, individualistic minority is somewhat something to be worried about in the context of founding a civilization. Otherwise, I get your point. 4. Intelligent people do not always get to be presidents/kings/prime ministers. That position usually goes to the most evil, powerful, charismatic or murderous person. There is no civilization without war, bloodshed and propaganda. You're conflating atheism with intelligence. 5. Religion is the best and simplest form of control for human beings. It is harder to govern and control with the truth. OK. With these 5 points in mind, religion coexisting with so many civilizations is not a positive for religion. How? Religion didn't just co-exist with these civilizations. Whether you speak of contemporary civilizations like the US or ancient like the Abbasid Empire. It played a huge part in unity and order in these civilizations, particularly among the earlier generations that laid the foundations upon which later generations would thrive. |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Why Atheism & Non-religion Never Built Civilization by usermane(m): 7:03am On Aug 08, 2020 |
AbdulSleeky: tintingz: OK. So why are atheists minority? You two ever considered this? It is because atheism as a mindset doesn't favor community growth. Theism proactively build and sustain communities through daily or weekly congregational worship, annual festivals and rites like pilgrimage, special protection and privileges for members only. These things not only strengthen the bonds among the believers, but it attracts non-believers to join them. Another thing, theists promote early marriage and raising as much children as possible as a means to expand their population. Atheists are less likelier to marry or have children than theists. So, that atheists are relatively so few is even more of a symptom of the inherent drawback of atheism, not an explanation for why they don't build civilization. Secondly Religion didn't develop civilization, it's skepticism which led to science that developed civilization, yes many of them were religious and theists but they didn't brought about civilization because of their Religious status or beliefs. The ancient Greek scholars even tho some believed in the Gods but they were skeptics and heretics. I didn't say that religion built civilization, I said religion organizes communities which later develop to form civilization. Civilization are built upon intelligence and hard work, not mere skepticism. Skepticism is a product of intelligence and intelligence is a product of genetics. For intelligent minds to thrive and bring about any development, there is need for an organized society with order and decorum maintained through a legal system, which for much of history is religion. |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Why Atheism & Non-religion Never Built Civilization by usermane(m): 5:10am On Aug 08, 2020 |
IMAliyu: I absolutely agree. Well said. |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Why Atheism & Non-religion Never Built Civilization by usermane(m): 9:14am On Aug 04, 2020 |
DuBLINGreenb: But it wasn't atheists and irreligious folks that built those things Islam stole. So your point is off topic. Just name one civilization or empire in history built by an atheist community. 1 Like 1 Share |
Islam for Muslims / Why Atheism & Non-religion Never Built Civilization by usermane(m): 6:50am On Aug 04, 2020 |
When you observe atheists and anti-religious people in general, they seem really impressive. They're are spot on in their assertion that religious texts or scriptures are factually erroneous, that the Problem of Evil is real, and that at the end of the day God's existence can't be objectively proven to the fullest - hence the terms "faith" or "belief" have come to be favored by theists. So the problem with atheism or non-religion isn't that is is wrong. It is that it misses the point and purpose of God and religion. Religion is often slagged as irrational and fruitless endeavor. This seem true on the surface, but it is deeply flawed. As bad or futile religion may seem, it served as the bedrock for all ancient and contemporary civilizations - the Sumerians, Egyptians, Greco-Romans, Persians, Byzantines, Abbasids, Ottomans, British and Americans. Atheism and irreligion created no similar civilization, at least that we know of. And it is easy to see why. Civilizations are built from communities - a collection of people or tribes with near similar view on how to live and deal with others. These similar views are defined as 'religion or cultural traditions'. The more similar or common the views among a group of people, the more united and cohesive they stand as a community. Unity and Cohesion is the minimum foundation upon which a community evolve into a successful civilization. And here the limitation of atheism comes to view. Unlike religion, atheism lack a default set of beliefs, doctrines and laws upon which people in agreement may unite and organize into cohesive communities. So when atheists say that humanity will be better off in future without religion, they're speaking out of context. For as long as there has been theists, there have been atheists. But unlike theists, atheist never built any civilization, and have remained just a negligible minority in civilizations built by theists. Peace. 1 Like |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Skepticism Vs Zombiesm - Which Is Good? by usermane(m): 3:04pm On Jul 29, 2020 |
budaatum: "the Quran is made the Word of God only if properly understood"? WTH? You're playing a very nasty game. What is the proper understanding of the Qur'an? Every Muslim have their own 'proper understanding' of Qur'an. |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Skepticism Vs Zombiesm - Which Is Good? by usermane(m): 7:42am On Jul 23, 2020 |
tintingz: If you're asking for objective proof, then you getting this all wrong. Outside the physical sciences, there is no such thing as objective proof. Proof is all subjective and relative. If muslims become philosophical skeptics i bet you most will irreligious or less Religious. The west is an example. I will say it again skepticism led to Greek philosophers knowledge, led to medieval muslim scientists knowledge then to the west knowledge who are dominating science today. You continue to undermine the role of intelligence and diligence in scientific development. Fair enough. |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Skepticism Vs Zombiesm - Which Is Good? by usermane(m): 6:13am On Jul 23, 2020 |
budaatum: We're talking about the present, not the past. Intelligence and diligence are the keys to scientific development. The skepticism you keep referring is product of intelligence. |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Would You Follow Someone Like Prophet Muhammad If He Appears Today? by usermane(m): 6:04am On Jul 23, 2020 |
budaatum: I do not know. I'm no longer convinced that a Man named Muhammad met an angel in the 7th century. 4 Likes 1 Share |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Skepticism Vs Zombiesm - Which Is Good? by usermane(m): 2:18pm On Jul 22, 2020 |
tintingz: Doctors do make mistakes in prescription. And several medications that initially passed clinical trials have been withdrawn from manufacturing after years of utility in healthcare. So, this is zombeism, admittedly a pardonable one. But the gist is that everyone is zombie in one area or the other. For some people, this area is their faith. But even the zombie theist would tell you that their faith have been tried and verified by generations of sages and scholars. I think questioning is the second step in science. To start a theory or hypothesis one has to question. Why is the rainbow with multiple colors, what causes the rainbow? That's how theories starts. It's still fundamental. OK. Yes of cos there are still zombies in the west but the west are far more developed because they're scientific inclined and relevant for centuries till date. You mean far more developed because there is less zombeism in religion among the people in the west? No. It is more complicated than that. Scientific development takes intelligence, determination, hard work and the will change lives & be self-sufficient. If you spread skepticism in the Muslim world today, it will make almost no difference in their scientific achievement. A Christian can reject Muhammad rode on a flying donkey and term it false and believe Jesus walked on water or levitate to the sky, that's delusion and irrational except such Christian can demonstrate why one is true and the other isn't true. This argument is usually goes In circles, sentiments, hypocrisy. Agreed. But remember, what is unproven to one skeptic, may be proven to another. Proof is if kind of subjective. It's not an assumption, it's a doctrine in the belief especially the Abrahamic. You can't question Allah nor his Prophets. OK, what is your view on a Muslim like Al-baqir? You can judge from his content and methodology. Doesn't he seem skeptical in his approach and opposed to zombiesm? The question you should ask is what is evidence? I didn't ask because I know it only leads to no where. I preached Qur'anism for 6 years. I thought I had all the evidence to convince sunnites. Where have that led me? |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Skepticism Vs Zombiesm - Which Is Good? by usermane(m): 7:22am On Jul 21, 2020 |
tintingz: OK, take this example. If you receive a prescription from the physician, do you exercise skepticism over the efficacy and action of the medication? Do you go, "I'm sick, the doctor gave me this medicine, but before I use the medicine or while I use it, I want to confirm if and how this medicine will work"? You don't. And that's zombiesm. No one can be constantly skeptical. In some areas, you're zombie, in other areas you're more cautious and skeptic. It depends on a number of factors. The fundamental principles in science is to question, without questioning the science is meaningless. Questioning is just one step in the scientific method. And it isn't even the first step. My point is that skepticism in itself can't be credited to the scientific advance in the west. There are several other components. And as I mentioned before, no one can be all skeptic or all zombie. It depend on subject matter and vary by degree. And thus, if you look closely at the western countries, you can see that these people are no better skeptics than Muslims, they're also zombies in certain subjects including history and politics. Skepticism in my context is about philosophical arguments. Alright. Every argument boils down to some philosophy at the end of the day. Even simple arguments like "Who should do the dishes?" Of cos some non-religous people suffer delusion too. The majority people that shows a delusional symptoms are Religious people. Define delusion then. There are some kinds delusions associated with religious folks, but everyone really suffer delusion. Again, my topic is about philosophical matter. Let's define zombeism for the sake of clarity. Zombiesm is basically accepting and living by ideas without scrutinizing them for accuracy. Just rejecting claims of Muhammad flying on horses and seeing angels don't make you a skeptic. And accepting such claims don't necessarily makes you a zombie. Regardless of your conclusion, you are zombie if you didn't scrutinize the claims and you're skeptic if you did. Now, as to my statement; "Everyone is both skeptic and zombie to varying extent depending on the subject." This is a response to the question of whether a person can be skeptic on all philosophic issues. As for individual philosophic issues like whether Muhammad did see angels and fly on horses, I agree that you can either be skeptic or zombie, not both. Nah. If you read more of philosophy you would see there are many holes when it comes to "God" a supernatural being. Till date there are still philosophical debates among religious people and non-religous people. This shows there's no objective conviction in the matter of religion, god, supernatural, truth, morality, purpose, etc. OK, your assumption is this; Anyone who still bear religious beliefs haven't questioned such beliefs, and is thus a zombie. That is not true. All skeptics do not share the same conclusion on a particular subject. If you want to argue about the evidence, don't forget that skeptic have different standard for evidence. What doesn't pass as evidence for you, may pass for another skeptic. 1 Like 1 Share |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Skepticism Vs Zombiesm - Which Is Good? by usermane(m): 2:34pm On Jul 19, 2020 |
tintingz: You have to be both. You can't be either skeptic or zombie. The real question is to what extent should zombieism and skepticism be exercised? Let's see Agreed. Even the medieval Muslims that contributed to science were skeptics as they love the ancient Greeks works and they worked on it but at a point in history the Muslim community had problem with this ideology(as it conflicted their faith) and the era of the Muslim scientists ended, the Europeans took up this movement till date and they're far more developed today. Many modern research comes from the west, why? Because they're skeptics, they question things and do research on it. True, but it is more complicated than mere skepticism though. Just being skeptic of religion won't make a nation progress. Developing scientifically is an entire mindset that is much broader than mere tendency to question everything. I once argued with a Muslim(a pro zombiesm) who believes skepticism is bad and can even make one go psychotic(if I could remember), he claim being skeptic can make one insane. Well I won't say he was completely wrong, people may develop mental problems trying to figure out a problem due to overused of the brain, the brain is like an engine that needs a break too. It's well known in the medics not to over stress your brain. So does that mean we should throw away education, science, philosophy? Definitely not. It seem his promotion of zombiesm is restricted to Islam. I don't think otherwise. A lot of Muslims only question and challenge ideas outside of Islam. Study shows that religion is also linked to delusion, most religious people show symptoms of delusions. True in part, but is not religion per se, it is any individual fixation or obsession that cultivate delusion. So, even non-religious people suffer delusion. We all do. So should we follow his "Zombiesm" ideology? OK. I already answered this question. I think everyone is both skeptic and zombie to varying extent depending on the subject. Zombiesm is also a necessary primer for skepticism. What I want to now point out is the practical problem with this question. No one consciously choose not to be zombie. Most religious people will tell you they're not zombies and that they have questioned and verified their faith and scripture thoroughly to attain certainty. Your skepticism on a subject is a product of your nature and nuture. Peace. 1 Like 1 Share |
Islam for Muslims / Re: Would You Follow Someone Like Prophet Muhammad If He Appears Today? by usermane(m): 1:27pm On Jul 19, 2020 |
No. I think Muhammad as an ordinary man could pass for the 7th century. But as a man of God, it just dont make sense any way you look at it. |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Pan-africanism & Antiracism by usermane(m): 3:48pm On Jun 12, 2020 |
koonbey: Every tribal community lost aspects of their civilizations to natural disasters or conquerors. |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Pan-africanism & Antiracism by usermane(m): 3:36pm On Jun 12, 2020 |
koonbey: I never said German during Nazism were angels, I said that were less discriminatory than say US. |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Pan-africanism & Antiracism by usermane(m): 3:34pm On Jun 12, 2020 |
JUICYPINEAPPLE: There was no segregation before the civil war. Your analogy is off. Even when Adolf Hitler's, the Nazist impression of a Black man is a very clear one of racial Prejudice. Jesse Owen reported Hitler saluted or waved him and he was not forced to the back of the bus. Still better than Roosevelt and America. |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Pan-africanism & Antiracism by usermane(m): 3:29pm On Jun 12, 2020 |
JUICYPINEAPPLE: Even by the standard of the middle ages, blacks didn't have a civilization. So, you're the one confused here. Where are the records of black advances in science and tech? Where are black Aristotle and Socrates? |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Pan-africanism & Antiracism by usermane(m): 3:19pm On Jun 12, 2020 |
olyrayy: I already explained in my other responses in this thread. There was no racial segregation in Nazi Germany. |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Pan-africanism & Antiracism by usermane(m): 3:12pm On Jun 12, 2020 |
koonbey: The Germans I address in my post were the ones during nazi regime. They were the ones that fought the Allied powers. They had nothing to do with Namibian Genocide |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Pan-africanism & Antiracism by usermane(m): 3:02pm On Jun 12, 2020 |
koonbey: You were approving the comment on Nazis |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Pan-africanism & Antiracism by usermane(m): 2:46pm On Jun 12, 2020 |
koonbey: WTH. Nazis didn't commit the Namibian genocide. The Nazis had black soldiers, did not enforce segregation like the US. |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Pan-africanism & Antiracism by usermane(m): 2:39pm On Jun 12, 2020 |
JUICYPINEAPPLE: No. I disagree. It is only barbaric by today's standard. Go read about wars and empires in human history. The native Americans would've done the same if they were in the place of Europeans. |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Pan-africanism & Antiracism by usermane(m): 2:20pm On Jun 12, 2020 |
fieryy: You don't understand my post. I never said the Nazis didn't discriminate against blacks. The discrimination, relative to US, was less. For instance, Jesse Owens reported good relations with the Germans during the Olympics, better than he received on return to the US. |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Pan-africanism & Antiracism by usermane(m): 1:42pm On Jun 12, 2020 |
olyrayy: You don't understand my post. I was looking at it from the perspective of Panafrcan who assumed the Allied powers, were the real racist, rather than Germany. |
Foreign Affairs / Re: Pan-africanism & Antiracism by usermane(m): 3:38am On Jun 12, 2020 |
JUICYPINEAPPLE: Yes, troll. Native Americans would've stood a better chance of defending themselves if they had some civilization. They became an easy target because they still lived in relatively primitive state and so whites took advantage. |
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