₦airaland Forum

Poor understanding of the term "Islamic/Muslim terrorist"

Empyree: "strange & funny"? cheesy but "Islamic terrorists" is relative and not oxymoron?. Media is fantastic. They successfully brainwashed you people to believe that every slight misdeed of muslims is act of terrorism.

Forget the media. Not every slight misdeed done by Muslims is Muslim terrorism, but every misdeed Muslim commits and justify in the name of Islam, or Qur'an. If Boko Haram, ISIS, Al Qaeda carried out their terror without invoking Islam; shouting takbir and reciting shahada or quoting Qur'an, we can all agree not to call them Islamic terrorists.

The New Zealand shooter did not quote Bible or shout 'Haleluya', 'In Jesus name' or 'Jehovah'. So he's not a Christian terrorist. Charlie Hebdo shooters on the other hand not only killed in the name of Islam, but they kept on shouting 'ya rasoolulah' and 'Allahu Akbar'. No one should have to schooled on this. Think.

Fallacy of Whataboutism

Empyree: Need I say more?. You summed it all by acknowledging facts but spoiled it by adding "so called"to suggest they are not necessarily CHRISTIANs. Anyways you agree that Jews and Christian terrorists are greatest threats to humanity right now.

Even though you decided to bring about way against apostates by Abu Bakr (ra), I can also go back to history. Before prophet muhammad (saw), didn't Jews and CHRISTIANS at war as well?. How about Roman army that invaded Jerusalem and destroyed it?. And other countless wars like that before the advent of Nabi Muhammad, were they muslims?

Oh, look! Fallacy of Whataboutism. Also known as Tu quoque fallacy. "I know Muslims attacked apostates but what about Jews & Christians ............"

najib632:
Please enjoy every moment of your delusional glory, whether you like it or not you will die and that will be Allah's time.

There is no glory in any of this. I'm actually disappointed. First, I thought the problems only lay with hadith. And now I come to find that Qur'an has it own fair share of issues. I did my best to address these issues objectively, but in the end, there are just those verses breeding doubts on the Qur'an. Here is one again;

22:63 - Do you not see that Allah send down from the sky water.

22:65 - And He withholds the sky lest it falls upon the earth except by His leave.

Now, the sky is where the rain comes from - this is the troposphere. The troposphere is space, with gas and dust particles. As such it is not conceivable for the troposphere be to fall upon the earth. Thus, no need to withold it.

22:65 would only make sense if the sky or troposphere is a solid ceiling like mass. This is not the case. So, this verse is apparently wrong.

The way forward is not by cursing people and intimidating them for criticizing or disobeying Qur'an. The way forward is to be humble and realize there is at least a chance the Qur'an is not God's word, whether you continue to practice Islam or not.

JeromeBlack:
Abeg. Brother Hijab is trying. Compared to the other Muslim dawah clowns, he is more sensible.

Of course I don't agree with him but he is trying.

If you say so, I guess I'll let you be. But it highlight the society's lower expectation for Muslims on philosophy. To me, the true Muslim philosophers don't waste time debating existence of God, they see that this debate on an even playing field can never have a decisive victor.

Where the true Muslim philosophers occupy themselves is in the purging Islam of the fanatic thoughts and ideas Muslims inherited from their predecessors.

The likes of Tarek Fatah, Maajid Nawaz, Imam Tawhidi, Mufti Abu Layth al Maliki or Zuhdi Jasser. These are recommendable Muslims. Not someone like Hijab who can't get beyond archaic mentality like "the unbelievers are the enemies".

Sino, where are you? Here is another verse on earth that raises more doubt on the Qur'an authenticity.

79:27 - 30: - Are you a more difficult creation or the heaven? He raised its ceiling and proportioned it. And he darkened its night and brought out its morning/brightness. And the earth after that He spread it?

"He darkened its night". "It" here refers to the heaven - sky.

Now, there is no night or day for the heaven, the space above the earth. The heaven is not an opaque solid receiving sunlight. Night is a phenomenon only applicable to the earth because of the earth opacity and rotation.

Also, what is meant by "darkened its night"? Sound like the night was clear or bright, then it was darkened. I can't make sense of it.

Plus, what is meant by "brought out its morning/brightness"?

JeromeBlack:
I'm very happy actually.

A lot of people actually read the debates that go on here.

Any unbiased person reading this thread would see that muslims like you are a disgrace to modern society.


Please, go and watch Mohammed hijab and learn how to argue sensibly. Mohammed Hijab is a Muslim philosopher who debates atheists.

Muhammad Hijab, Muslim philosopher? Man, you must have really low expectation of Muslims or poor appreciation for philosophy.
Debating ignorant people about Islam on the street and publishing a book for God's existence, doesn't make you a philosopher.

Is this not the man that justify wife hitting (Qur'an 4:34) with moral relativism? The man that can't see how hitting wives even with a tooth pick can provoke domestic violence even in the 7th century?

Only thing one can learn from Hijab is a bit of diplomacy in discourse. Respect for your opponents. But nothing else.

At the heart of it, this man is just a social media celebrity to Muslims. He, Ali Dawah, Dawah Man, these are cookie cutter Muslims who regurgitate the same flawed arguments by past scholars. Bunch of overzealous Muslims that live in the land of fasad, despite their religion prohibition against doing so, and seeking to make a name for themselves.

Salaam

sino:
Then what would it be referring to?!

Let's go by your interpretation that running for an appointed term mean running on a path or an orbit. Let's also forget about the heavens. And let's turn to 'night and day' which are subjects of the verb "running" in this verse. Now, how can running on an orbit be explained for night and day?

In light of this reasoning, I'm inclined to believe 'running for an appointed term' most likely refers to 'serving their purposes for an appointed term'.

First of all, to give you an idea what companions of the Prophet (SAW) understanding looks like, you need to read how they answer questions posed to them by the Prophet(SAW). They would always revert back to the superiority of Allah's (SWT) knowledge and that of the Prophet (SAW). So when an aspect of knowledge isn't made plain to them, and they didn't ask, they would always subject their understanding to the fact that only Allah (SWT) knows best, after they might have exercised their "ijtihad" They are not arrogant lots who arrogate knowledge to themselves, and hence they seek accurate and authentic evidences to back up any opinion or claim!

I could get into the flaw in this point but I'd risk provoking you more than I already did.

I do not deal with assumptions on issues of my beliefs! I don't hold assumptions as facts, and would not base my interpretations on assumptions. You are the one that came up with the assumption of "verifying" the resting place for the Sun!

Fair enough.

Nah, the science of hadith had been traced to the earliest generation of companions after the demise of the Prophet (SAW), so i do not know what you are talking about.

Yes, but it has always been subjected to individual bias. Even with the science of hadith, one hadith may be accepted by one scholar while at the same time rejected by another scholar. If you reject an hadith for a reason, just understand that other Muslims may accept the same hadith for different reason.

Let's take the verses in question as an example, so some scholars held the opinion of geocentric model, while others held to the heliocentric model, but are these models the basis of faith in Islam?! The answer is NO!

I'm not aware of any Qur'anic scholar of antiquity holding opinion of heliocentric model. There were Muslim scientists about the 10th century opposed to geocentric model, but there is no clear indication that this opposition was borne out of deducing heliocentric model from the Qur'an.

Are these models the basis of faith? Yes. If the Qur'an implies one model and we determine that model is not the model of the solar system, then it is time to question the divinity or infallibility of Qur'an.

I can summarize what the verses in question states thus:

1. The Sun, Moon, Earth, Heavens, Night and Day are all signs by the Creator of the Universe for us to reflect, think, reason!
2. All are running for a specific time, as it has been decreed
3. The Sun and Moon have separate orbits they move within
4. The earth is being wrapped by night and day...

Due to advancement in knowledge, evidences suggests that the earth is spherical (...hence my 4 above suggests the earth's rotation) and the heliocentric model is more accurate. So tell me where the Qur'an is in error?!

Here, the verse 5 of chapter 39 states;

"He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night."

The night and day are wrapping over themselves here, not over the earth. I could say this is problematic as the Qur'an speaks of night and day as if they are tangible objects, capable of wrapping like clothes.

In common language we can say "the night has come", "the day has break", even though "come" and "break" are often used for tangible objects. But to say "the night wraps over the day" or "the day wraps over the night" is uncommon.

Also, I still hold that resting place of the sun according to 36:38, refers to a place the sun goes at sunset. I've explained it cannot mean the place the sun comes to rest at the end of the world because the context of the passage (36:37-40) addresses daily events - day and night(36:37, 40), phases of the moon(36:39).

There are numerous verses in the Qur'an addressing the end time. If resting place of the sun refers to where the sun comes to rest at end time, then the Qur'an would've mentioned the phrase among verses speaking of end times, rather than daily phenomena.

Also, the hadith of Abu Dharr supports my interpretation. I'm really not convinced otherwise. But I chose not to continue to drag it.


Lastly, Quran states night and day float in orbit(36:40) as the sun and moon. This does imply night and day are tangible objects rather than phenomena. You can say this is erroneous, unless of course you chose not to interpret 'falak' as literal orbit.

Well, aforementioned verses are clear, and what are important to Muslims are also clear! The Qur'an is a book of guidance, to guide the sincere heart to acknowledging the truth!

All these have been addressed within my responses to you, there are no issues with the text of the Qur'an, Allah (SWT) had made it clear, perhaps I should remind you:

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding." (Sahih international Q 3: 7)

When there are deviations in the heart, there happens to be little one can do to help, such persons keep seeking that which would justify their deviations, no matter the explanations provided!

No deviation of heart here. The evidence of the differences among scholars on fundamental issues are all there as yardstick to measure the clarity of the Qur'an. Aside the Qur'an claim that it is clear, you have no external evidence to support your position that the Qur'an is clear.

najib632:
I would love to reply you but I have classed you in the same category with tintinz and that other hypocrite true2devil a.k.a. false2god. I Shall not waste my time upon people like you.

Peace.

I wonder the response you had in mind especially concerning my critique on Islam or traditional Islam to be precise. The tables have completely turned. The days of concealing the weakness or darkness in Islam died with the birth of internet.

Thank God at least for these websites;

sunnah.com
quranx.com/Tafsirs/
corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?

Anyone lies about Islam now is easily exposed. The days of scholars concealing the facts from the public is long gone.

koonbey:
Lastly, it doesn't matter that Usermane "conceded" it. He probably did so out of the confidence (mistaken, to my mind) that you're an intellectual whose sources should be given benefit of doubt.

Peace.

I didn't concede anything. I admitted that I found out long ago that bin Laden denied a hand in 9/11. Muslim terrorists always admit if they are behind a terror attack. If bin Laden did not admit involvement, then I strongly feel he is not behind it.

But none of this is relevant to the question of bin Laden as a terrorist. 9/11 or no 9/11, bin Laden was part of Mullah Omar's Talibans. And the Talibans were oppressors, if not terrorists.

Hey! Look who shows up.

najib632:
Salamu alaikum brother, it's been a while. It seems this rascal has opened a thread to tarnish our names? Hahahahaha, what a complete joker, by Allah he should say what ever he wants, Allah has made the truth obvious. You and I have done nothing but tell him the bitter truth

Which bitter truth?

When I told you the Qur'an was wrong to read, "He came to the setting (place) of the sun. He found it setting in a spring of muddy water. He found near it a people", what did you say?

When I point the Qur'an and classic scholars were wrong to teach man is created from clot and sex fluid or garmetes come out from between the ribs and the back bones, what did you say?

Go back to that thread and read your rude and disrespectful but poor attempt to defend the bitter truth.

although you're even a bit soft on him

Soft on me? I've dealt with Empyree and his overbearance and tactlessness since 2014. Nowadays, unlike you, Empyree rarely throws insults like "rascal" or "jaheel". What he employs is toxic mind games, psychological manipulation, and I'll cite more examples as I expose his ignorance on this thread.

look at how he pays you back, by opening a thread and slandering you. If he was truthful he wouldn't try to twist our statements to make himself feel good.

You may call it slander if you please. But I've presented evidences to back my analysis of his psyche. I've ceased conversing with Empyree long ago due to his attitude. But since he continued to haunt me, have a go at me, using words for me that I too consider slanderous, I decide to have a party for him, just as I had a party for you earlier on.

I have nothing against him, I wished him well in my last post to him last October, but truth must be told and I'd recommend an attitude adjustment for him. Taking delight in trolling, taunting, guilt tripping and intimidating people you disagree with, and living in the land of fasad even though your religion frowns upon it is not normal.

How can a knowledgeable Muslim say that terrorism is in Islamic texts? This ass licker does not even know about the khawarij and the Hadith concerning them.

Abu Bakr as Sadik's jihad against the Persians was state terrorism as US war against Iraq. There are many hadith where Muhammad is commanded to fight the people untill they embrace Islam, this is terrorism.

All the Imams of fiqh agreed that offensive jihad to expand the caliphate and spread sharia is responsibility of the caliphate. Offensive jihad is basically state terrorism.

All what ISIS have done is supported by Muslim texts or traditions.

Please, be honest. Don't lie or feign ignorance.

This guy boldly mocks the prophesy and Hadith of the messenger of Allah, it should be obvious by now that he is a Kaafir. If you can turn a blind eye to all the good of the messenger of Allah and focus on less than 10 controversial issues (many recently became controversial) then he should know that he is insincere

Every Muslim mock the Hadith of the messenger when they decide to cherry pick among Hadith. The Hadith said alcohol is not a medicine, but a disease. The prophet would not permit it use as medicine. But Muslims today make and consume medicine with alcohol, is this not mockery of the prophet's Hadith?

and anyone who says the Qur'an is copied from other scriptures is a joker who has never read the final book of Allah. May Allah never allow our hearts to deviate from the straight path and may Allah always grant us the strength to struggle against ignorance, ameen.

You are the joker here. Ever since you said mountains prevent earthquake and two sea waters or salt and fresh waters do not mix, and you twist and distort apparently flawed verses to make them seem right, I knew you to be another ignorant and arrogant Muslim like Empyree.

Peace

It's more about things that didn't make sense than things that were hard. Things like;

1. Prohibition of drawing and painting animals or humans.

Figure and portrait drawing are some of the most popular form of art. I had to give up both of them.

2. Prohibition of music.

I didn't quit music for good. I recall promising to quit several times, deleting all my tracks, but only to re-download them months later.

3. Lunar Islamic calendar.

Why are we using a lunar calendar? We've ditched this calendar in every other area of our lives because it is just too out of sync with seasonal rhythm. I don't know how many Muslims mark their birthday or how many Muslim countries mark their national day every 354 days.

One of the most obvious flaw in the Islamic lunar calendar is how Ramadan sometimes fall in the period of midnight sun in the earth poles, so that fasting in such areas is not possible according to the Qurán specification, unless the Muslims at the poles relocate elsewhere. An option which isn't really practical for a religion that is meant for all place and time.

4. Muhammad's marriage to a 6 years old and consummation of the marriage after 3 years.

I get that this was normal during the time. But Muhammad as a man of God should've known better. Which 6 years old is ready for the romance and sex associated with marriage, especially with a man of over 50?

Yet, even with this Muslims shamelessly parrot, "Muhammad is the best example for all mankind." Which obviously cement child marriage in Islam, a practice we all hate to love.

5. Prohibition against dating or courtship:

It never made sense to me that Islam forbid dating or courtship before marriage, but permits men to purchase unmarried slave women to serve as lovers or concubines.

6. Hudud; Amputating thieves, stoning adulterers, throwing homosexuals off rooftops or cliffs, killing apostates.

Obviously, if you've been reading my works for the past months or years, you can see I never really came to terms with these areas of Islam. I've in fact recognized them for what they are - Man made. And have stopped struggling to come to terms with them.

The Muslim community is a joke

The west knows of Muslim grievances against the them, and they know the narratives in support of terrorism in reaction to such grievances exist in Muslim sacred texts, so all they need to set off turmoil in the Muslim world is to help create and fund a terrorist group. And devoted, jihad loving Muslims would flock.

As twisted as the west plan may be, it work so well that you can't help but wonder at the genius. For example, it was them who supported the creation of Hamas and funded it in the 1990s. It is possible, you know, that US supplies Hamas with rockets, Hamas launches at Israel without any damage, and Israel get an excuse to launch her own rocket at Palestine, causing significant damage.

Do not think this is unlikely. Back in the Iraq-Iran war(1980s), the US covertly supplied Iraqis with weapons and training, while Israel supplied the same to Iranians. So, basically you have two Muslim countries manipulated by the same west, like chess pieces on a chess board.

So, continue to blame the west for funding ISIS, Empyree. And keep undermining the seeds for terrorism in Muslim sacred texts.

Empyree on Judeo-Christian Terrorism

Empyree: Again, who do you blame, British or Rohingya?. Aren't the same british that forced marriage on different tribes and ethnic groups in nigeria?. Their horrible crimes are well and alive far more than Turks treatments of armenia. I do not condone Armenian genocide. Up to this mins, it is western world that constantly reminds the world of Armenia genocide while ignoring theirs. If we put percentages side by side, obviously Judeo/christian terrorists did worst.

Let's just start from 18 century alone. Or have you forgotten Italian brutal invasion and genocide of Libyans under Mussolini and general Graciani?. Apart from Armenian genocide, you can hardly point to where muslim authority was invading countries and on killing rampage. it is very rare. But Judeo/christian terrorist have long record of invading muslim countries and killing them till this second. But if you want to use the terrorists created by them to make us believe they are muslims, you wrong.

Yea, yea. Let's start from the 18th century, when the Christians became superpowers and abused their military might. Forget everything from the 7th century when Muslims were superpowers and abused their military might. How convenient.

We all know isis and co are covert operations. Therefore, they can't be solely muslim vs others.

We? You're alone in this illusion. ISIS combatants plundering, raping, slave trafficking and killing are Muslims. The covert support of western governments only changes little. It is Muslims who are leaving their bedrooms to go join ISIS, and apart from grievances against western colonialism, Islam is a very major driving factor for their choice.

Empyree's habitual damage control for Islam and Muslims

Empyree: Where do you stand in all of these?. Saudi ppl do not represent islam. We only respect them by virtues of Makkah and medina. so you dont need to always attribute violence to muslims. Bcus they entertained Carey doesn't mean they are right.

Yea, Saudi people no longer represent Islam. Everything good about Saudis is Islam, everything bad about them is not Islam. And anything good in the westerners is not Christianity, but anything bad about them is Christianity.

We have hadith which speaks about SCUMS prevailing in the Arabia. It says when scums prevailing, wait for the destruction of Arabs. We are seeing scums now. The are basically going from one extreme to another.

I know, right? Wait for the destruction of Arabs after they host Mariah Carey and WWE, and what else? Opened cinemas, and ...let women drive? What a load of damage control!

Rashduct4luv:
Psychology and Prophetic medicine.

Hahaha.

Is it not the same prophetic medicine that point to fever as coming from hell and recommend exorcism for scorpion sting?

sino:
You are welcome.

I believe "all running for a specific term" means what it means, after all, at a point everything created would perish, except the Creator! (Qur'an). Secondly, the Arabic used is plural, if it was just for the Sun and Moon, then the word would be in dual form (You see why I had advised you learn the language of the Qur'an?!)

Also, as I have pointed out earlier, it is not just until it is explicitly stated that you would come to such conclusions, that is why I alluded to using your thinking skills! When you read, "He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient" does it suggests that it is the movement of the Sun and the Moon doing this wrapping around?! Does the Moon bring about night?!

I didn't say "all running for a specific term" is limited to sun and moon. I said it is limited to sun, moon, night and day. You can't include earth, or you'll have to include heavens. And if you include the heavens then obviously "running for a specific term" is not referring to orbital motion.

But there is nothing in the Qur'an or authentic hadiths that indicates this! If there is none, then it remains your assumptions! I don't deal with such!

Well, I made this assumption apparently because I wanted you to see how a 7th century folk could understand this verse. Just put yourself in the shoes of the 7th century folks. "Resting place for the sun" could remind them of such pre-Islamic myths about the sun. We learn by association.

We all deal with assumptions when reading any document. You also have assumed so far. For instance, you assumed that if resting place is implying the place the sun goes at sunset, then resting place has to be a point that the sun will also rise from, rather than rise from the east or west. I believe this is why you disagree the sahih hadith by Abu Dharr supports my interpretation.

I also do not use unclassified hadiths to form major opinions about my faith! There are important reasons why there is an aspect of Islamic knowledge known as science of hadiths...

Fair enough. Please, note. This unclassified hadith was accepted by earlier Muslims. There is no such thing as classified or unclassified hadith, hadith is hadith, and whether a hadith is classified or authentic vary from Muslim to Muslim, scholar to scholar, era to era.

No! I said the message of the Qur'an is clear to every generation, the advancement in knowledge only helps buttress the understanding of this message, and this doesn't suggest that the message was never understood, but to buttress the message as the truth form Allah (SWT)! Those who were in the time of the Prophet (SAW) saw the Prophet and witness the truth of the message of the Prophet (SAW), they do not need the heliocentric model to believe this truth, neither do they need the the anatomic view of the embryo's developmental stages in the womb!

OK. If that's what you say, then Houston we still have a problem. If the message is clear to every generation, why do scholars differ on numerous verses? The verse we discuss alone, has two differing understanding among the scholars, why?

Also, I don't get how advancement of knowledge buttress the understanding of the message. It basically changes the understanding of the message. On reading the tafsir of earlier scholars on verses pertaining to astronomy, anatomy or embryology, I find that earlier Muslims understood the Qur'an quite differently from modern Muslims.

The question you need to ask yourself is, what is the message of the Qur'an?!

Qur'an is a clarification of everything important on; "Spirituality, Laws and Ethics, History, Afterlife and Natural sciences."

Whatever you wish to consider isn't the problem of the Qur'an, afterall, there are those who even take verses of the Qur'an out of context, erroneously (and sometimes on purpose) to justify their hate, terrorism, corruption, etc...The truth is always clear, and with a little bit of open-minded reasoning and reflection coupled with sincerity (or as Buda puts it, diligence and perseverance), you would always see the truth in the Qur'an, a clear book!

Difference of opinions amongst scholars, if not about the fundamentals of the religion, are entertained as part of their intellectual exercises, so, their mistakes are what they are, mistakes! They are humans and not free from making such as I might have made in my responses to you!

When you say a book is clear, everyone should be able to read it without even moderate differences in understanding. This is not the case with Qur'an, unfortunately. For instance, scholars disagree on essential issues;

Abrogated verses of the Qur'an
Permissibility for Offensive jihad
Fasting & Salat timing in the Arctic and Antarctic circles during the periods of midnight sun.
Permissibility of slavery etc.

I believe you understand this disagreements are not trivial.

Here are other areas the Qur'an is not clear;

What are the 7 heavens?
Who was Dhul Qarnayn and where are the walls he built to hold back Gog and Magog till the Armageddon?
Why does the Qur'an sometimes reads like the speech of other than God?

You can see there are issues with Qur'anic text. You can say the Qur'an is clear because it states it is clear, but it doesn't change reality.

Empyree sees all these evidences to his hypocrisy and he resort to psychologically manipulate us to forget his fault - his fault of living in the land of fasad and associating with the people of fasad. And he does so by constantly reminding us that it is Christians that are to blame for these fasad, not Muslims like him.

Overzealous Muslims like Empyree in the west internally deal with guilt, for living in the land of fasad(west). And to sublimate their guilt they have to project their guilt upon people they deem as encouraging or engaging in the fasad, as if to remind their God that they are not in support of this fasad, even though they've overlooked their God's requirement for them to avoid dwelling in the land of fasad.

Empyree knows these well;

Empyree: Sometimes Allah does punish some people because of their violations of His laws whether they are physical or moral. Homosexuality is prime example. When the general punishment comes then the sinners and the innocents are all destroyed. The Qur'an tells us that many nations and communities were destroyed because of their sinful lifestyles.

When sin is confined only sinner faces consequences but when sin (homosexual) is gloried and protected under common law, expect trouble if religious do not respond to curb it. Otherwise, all of us will be punished including you, Mr. pro gay hiding behind progressive and human right.

If you're a Muslim and you can't stand 'fasad', there is absolutely no reason to remain in the west. You recall what God asked Lot to do in Sodom, the city of fasad? He asked Lot to leave with his family and believers.

That's right, the mere immigration of traditional Muslims to the west is a violation of traditional Islam itself. And guess what, hadith reports that Muhammad;

- disowned Muslims who settle with the kufars
- warned Muslims who remain with the people of fasad that when Allah's punishment comes upon the land, even the pious Muslims in the land will bear it.
- requested even Muslim converts from outside Islamic state to emigrate to the Islamic state.

But hypocritically, Empyree is an immigrant to US, the land that permit all the fasad, everything that he despises. He is not a Caucasian or African American, he has no reason to remain in US if he truly hates the fasad. He chose to remain there. To what? To cry and bitch.

Why not emigrate from the US? After all, the westerners themselves are tired of Muslim migrants, even though they continue to be politically correct. So if the fasad is too much, what keeps Empyree from emigrating elsewhere?

Why not move to Brunei? Don't like there?; What about Saudi A? Too strict?; Iran? Too Shiite? Pakistan, Egypt, Indonesia, Qatar? There are 57 Muslim countries that don't condone fasad, surely they'll be happy to have Empyree and his family.

Empyree: Guilt of a Muslim migrant to the land of 'fasad'(mischief)

Another defining trait of Empyree is his vocal hate for the western culture of 'fasad' - homosexuality, nudity, blasphemy, anti-Islam, alcohol, promiscuity. He hates that the western regimes fund wars against or among Muslims. All of this is laid out in his guilt tripping of tru2god as I analyzed in my last post:

Empyree: It is you CHRISTIANs that brought evils into the modern world. Homosexual, children insulting their parents is their right. They do what they want is their right. Feminism is their right. Walking around Unclad is your right. Talk nonsense is your right. But when a Muslim woman dresses modestly she's uneducated slave. And the list goes on. We wouldn't be having this discussion if you were truthful after you watched the video.

Fact remains that all these terrorists around the world are created directly or indirectly by Judeo CHRISTIAN leaders and I have provided proof in the past.

Now, he could've stopped there. Every sincere theist will have doubts. As Empyree fails to understand, there is no such thing as perfect ideology or perfect book. And doubts will arise among co-religionists, even among the most devoted. That is provided they are sincere.

Empyree: second thought because of antigen?. You sure there was sincerity in your heart to begin with?

Is this not guilt-tripping? I stand to be corrected. What's this meant for. To push Abdulbasit into questioning his his sincerity rather than his faith? Classic psychological manipulation at play here, if you ask me.

Now, this is a valid question as far as perfect and all intelligent creator of human is concerned. It is one that no theist could respond to. Albaqr's attempt was nothing more than "Rhesus factor shouldn't be considered flaw in design because we just might be yet to understand its importance."

Anyway, I've dealt with blood groups and how the incompatibilities between the blood groups and severe reaction when they mix, poses a crucial challenge to theists. See my post;

Abdulbasit: The rhesus factor D(Rhd) is an antigen in human blood. It has been discovered to cause birth defect and stillborn of new born babies if the mother is negative Rhd and the father is positive.

Why did Allah create an antigen that is dangerous to human babies? How are you as a Muslim able to renconcile Rhd factor with an all knowing, perfect God?

NB: I converted to Islam late 2014. I've learnt a lot about Islam from this section but I am beggining to have second thoughts.

Empyree attempt to provide an answer, but never does. His answer strongly implies he did not even understand the question.

Empyree: Doesn't antigen has some benefits to talk about. Why is your focus only on negative aspect?. There is always positive and negative, advantages and disadvantages. Both are necessarily needed to work together to put your body in check.

Antigen also prevents disease or sickness.

Empyree V Abdulbasit

Here a Muslim arrives with an intelligent question. Why does Allah create Rhesus factor, which in fetal blood stimulates maternal blood antibodies that crosses blood-placenta barrier and cause hemolytic disease of newborn.

https://www.nairaland.com/5155136/why-did-allah-create-rhesus#77872404

This is Empyree at his finest. He first psychologically manipulates a man and guilt trip the man into apology for his co-religionists. And then he psychologically manipulates the man by liking and re-posting the man's comments - opposing another man, obviously of course to make the man feel good again.

As a gentleman, Empyree should've just let it go after tru2god at first criticized the sermon. But Empyree is no gentleman, he lacks tact, he instead loses his temper and unleash his rage in his reply to tru2god. Empyree tries to get under his opponent's skin, he tries to get int their head.

Shortly after, when I posted for homosexuality, Empyree did not hesistate to like and re-post tru2god's post and commending tru2god for opposing me against homosexuality. So that the two of them together, gladly opposed me like they had not just been fighting.

https://www.nairaland.com/5144263/25-sharia-laws-breaching-human/2#78102705
https://www.nairaland.com/5144263/25-sharia-laws-breaching-human/3#78105791
https://www.nairaland.com/5144263/25-sharia-laws-breaching-human/3#78109463

tru2god not only falls into apology for his coreligionists, but he plunges into Empyree's blame game and mudslinging at this point;

tru2god: I don't buy that. You guys should take responsibility for your actions and stop the blame games. The Judaeo-christian world was not the responsible for the battle of karbala which resulted into the split of Islam into the Sunni and the shia. The Judaeo-christian world was not the responsible for the apostate war immediately after the death of Mohammed.

The Judaeo-christian world was not the responsible for killing the grandson of the prophet who dies in the hands of the Sunnis Muslims. The Judaeo-christian world is not the responsible for the current persecution of Christians in the middle east. The Judaeo-christian world is not the responsible with the current diplomatic stand-off between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Even in some occasions whereby the CIA trained Muslim militia to fight fellow Muslims, why are Muslims so naive to fall for that trap? Why cant muslims put their house in order for more than 1400 years?

And this guilt-tripping might have succeeded this time. Because we can see in tru2god's following post that he is forced to come to apology for his Christian brothers and deny any of those "evils" Empyree blames on Christian are really encouraged by Christians.

tru2god: The liberals and the leftists are the ones promoting vices around the western world. The Christian in the US and Europe as still being regarded as 'conservatives and evangelicals' because of their view which are often against the so-called liberal progressive views. Over 80% of leftist and 'progressives' identified as atheist and they are sympathetic to anything that goes against the Judaeo-christian values such as pornography, LGBT, feminism and their so-called 'human and animal right'. The leftist and the atheist are also the greatest supporters of Islam in the US and Europe.

Now, tru2god's final paragraph further provoked Empyree, and the latter returns with more guilt-tripping, blame game & mudslinging. He blames all what he he deems "evil" on the tru2god's religious brothers - the Christian west. All evil comes from the Christian west, including the Muslim terrorists reciting Qur'an and shouting Allahu Akbar as they amputate a pilferer.

Empyree: As I said before, you guys want no peace. It doesn't matter what you say again.

Clearly you don't want peace. Sheikh clearly stated that muslims should identity with victims but you somehow interpreted his message to suit you. The world is seeing what you guys are doing.

It is you CHRISTIANs that brought evils into the modern world. Homosexual, children insulting their parents is their right. They do what they want is their right. Feminism is their right. Walking around Unclad is your right. Talk nonsense is your right. But when a Muslim woman dresses modestly she's uneducated slave. And the list goes on. We wouldn't be having this discussion if you were truthful after you watched the video.

Fact remains that all these terrorists around the world are created directly or indirectly by Judeo CHRISTIAN leaders and I have provided proof in the past. John McCain (may his soul burn in hell) was one of them. Because hes no longer around was the reason his boys lost the battle. He was the one that lobbied for terrorists. And that Jerry Falwell a Christian terrorist(may he rot in hell) was one of the instigators of war in Iraq on false premise.

So, what Empyree has done so far is guilt-tripping. He's guilt tripping tru2god of polytheism and non-cooperation for peace.

Empyree's guilt-triping did not succeed at first. When tru2god returns, tru2god merely restated and defended his position on the sermon. But you can tell he was a little ticked off in his final paragragh which he devoted to slamming Islam and Muslims' poor history of co-existence with other faiths and believers.

tru2god: I am pointing out the errors in that 'sermon' and you are here blaming me. If a terrorist attacks a mosque and kill 100 people and a pastor, in his church, condemned the attack but at the same time told his congregation that Mohammed is a false prophet and a great sin to believe he is a prophet, what will you say? When you are condemning such a horrendous crime you have no reason to attack/mock the faith of the victims which is what the sheik did. It is better for one to keep quiet when a bad incident occur than to open his mouth to make a provocative statement.

On the alleged letter Mohammed wrote to ensure the security of Christians which the imam spoke about in the 14th minute into the video, why are Saudi and Iranian authorities not adhering to the instruction to the so-called 'prophet's letter'? Why are they still arresting Christians and apostates in Saudi Arabia and Iran?

There are over 10 major religions on earth, why are virtually all the other religions living peacefully with other except Islam? Why are we always having conflict between Islam and other religions? You guys should do a soul searching and stop playing 'they hate us' game.

Some how, this triggered Empyree, and he latched on the underlined words of tru2god, in accusing the fellow of knowing Christianity is polytheism all along. Of course, this was a ruse. Empyree knows fully well that tru2god was simply making a case. No Christian regard the trinity as 3 Gods or polytheism.

Empyree: So you know that you have been deceiving yourself in your faith?. You know that you perpetrated worst evil by associating partners with God and yet, you claimed to worship one God. Sometimes we learn the truth by way of deception which you put on display here.

Still, Empyree posts this to hurt or provoke tru2god, knowing fully well that Christians won't take such accusation lightly. He even posts that tru2god & his co-Christians don't want peace. He recount so may other anecdotes & de-contextualized events from the distant past till present to support this.

Empyree: It is clear you guys want no peace. You deliberately chose to misinterpret his sermons to suit you. What else can Muslims say or do to please you guys?. His message is as clear as daylight. He extended peace gestures but you guys still complain. Why in the world you think #1 actually referred to CHRISTIANS?

It is true that the worst form of oppression is ascribing partners with God but this oppression is against one's soul bcuz in the grave and on the Day of judgement it is not gonna be funny.

I swear the way you reason here makes me sad. Why did you choose to distort his message?. As for the letter he talked about, it would have been better if you said you would research it rather than arriving at the conclusion.

I now believe that CHRISTIAN world don't want peace. Example was recent release of the lady arrested in Saudi Arabia. CAN already played religious card

I am now convinced that CHRISTIANs don't want peace. No wonder media would still portray a white CHRISTIAN nationalist as "Islamic terrorists". This is truly deep hatred. So sad man that you Mr. True2god could stooped so low. The sheikh even said that evil perpetrated against Sri Lankan CHRISTIANs killing over 200 worshippers was oppression and Muslim must identified with the oppressed (the victims).

What you just did here is the same trait throughout Christian history. In 1930s, the italian general Graziani did the same. He claimed he wanted peace. He summoned Umar Mukhtar to peace talks under a tent. While peace talks were ongoing, his troops were sending armoured tanks to Kufa to attack Umar's army. Yet he's "negotiating peace talks".

George Bush did the same when pressure mounted to leave Iraq, he said no problem. We would move our troops from Iraq and exist from Iran (that's, invade iran on our way out). Yet, he was "negotiating peace talks" with Iraq. When white CHRISTIAN nationalist killed 50 people in NZ, a Christian apologist based in Abuja published article that the CHRISTIAN terrorist guy was linked to islamist terrorists. Now you too did the same thing. You guys want no peace.

Any way, enters tru2god. Who state his distrust in this imam for condemning killing of innocent people but later on declaring polytheism as the greatest crime. Please, note the underlined.

tru2god: At 1:35mins, the sheik asked the Muslims to fight against oppression and evil. This is OK, if he stops there but he listed 7 main sources of evil and oppression. The list are:

1) Associating partner with Allah.

2) Magic and sorcery.

3) Killing of innocent people.

4) Time will draw close.

5) Knowledge will decrease

6) Fitna will increase

7) Murder and genocide will appear.

The fist point he made obviously talked about the Christians. The Christian call Jesus 'the son of God' and this is ranked as the greatest evil in Islam; associating partner with Allah. This Christian belief has been in force over 500yrs before Muhammed was born and over 2000 yrs by now. So when a sheikh, in a mosque, keep parroting the same old Islamic narrative against a core christian belief, is he trying to make peace or create more disunity among people of different faith? I will leave you to be the judge. Remember, he was meant to sound conciliatory immediately after Sri Lanka attack by some Muslim terrorist but he is busy castigating the beliefs of the victims. Imagine a pastor, after the new Zealand attack, holding a church service condemning the attack but at the same time saying that Mohammed is a fake prophet, how do you see that?