₦airaland Forum

Muslim Ignorance in the 21st century

In every part of the world, there are ignorant people. So this is not intended to bash Muslims. In fact, we agree that there are enlightened Muslims in the Muslim community today, but they are held back by the ignorant ones in their community.

We have explained the ignorance behind the #7 hadith, but it is unfortunate we still have a reader trying to make sense of the hadith. He cannot understand that at no point in time will all of the earth be experiencing night hours or absence of sunlight. So we leave him, we are no Geography professor and we do not see it our responsibility to teach basic Geography.

The problem of ignorance in the Muslim world is not a result of religious adherence. It is possible to be religious yet still enlightened and progressive. But this can only happen if the religion is truly from God, not man-made religions like Sunnism, Shiism, Catholicism, Pharisaic Judaism etc. filled with superstitions, barbarity and fallacies.

In the middle ages, the Muslim world was relatively more enlightened than the Christian world. Heretic Christians, Jews and other minorities would flee persecution from Christian world to become dhimmis in Muslim world. Women and slaves in the Muslim world enjoy more rights than in Christian world.

Damage Control, Again

this is the point here but you used scientific terms to shield yourself. You agree it does gets delayed sometimes. That's my point

So, because the morning is cloudy and the sun is not visible at 6.00 AM, it mean the sun has not risen yet but still waiting for permission?

Do you forget that some days even in the afternoon, the sun radiation may as well be occluded, giving the impression that the sun is absent? Is it bowing and asking permission to rise at this point?

Of course, none of these change the fact that the sun is always there in space, whether we see it or not. Your theory that the sun goes to bow at sunset and wait for permission to rise contradict the fact that the same sun is already in the sky elsewhere.

Empiree:
walaikum Salam.

You are the one making it sound like interpolation. You will not be allowed to deprecate the importance of Arafat and its benefits. Maybe I should rephrase it this way perhaps you may assimilate a little. Our sins are forgiven too on other days of the months before Ramadan if we make sincere tawba. But we stand better chance in Ramadan especially last 10 Days and most especially on the Night of Layla tul Qadri. We tend to devote a lot on special events and leave sins compared ordinary days. Same applies to Arafat.


^^^^

Your opinion refer to my comment ^^

I can't continue with this because you already implied that God will hesitate to forgive people who sincerely repent, unless they fast on days like Arafat.

This goes against the verses of Qur'an.

One last thing; I also think you have a wrong understanding of the purpose of fasting.

Rashduct4luv:
Usermane, i quoted a verse of the Qur'an wherein Allah forgived the Prophet but probably you skipped it.

What about that?

I already gave my word on the verse. It's important to distinguish between one man(messenger) and an entire population of Muslims.

The prophet is just one person. His future sins and the circumstance pertaining to such sins would have been foresighted by God to warrant forgiveness. This is not the case for every Muslim that fast on Arafat day

Another Argument for Hadith #7

And, yes, when the sun set in Africa for instance it is working elsewhere. But this is not the point. Point is, before it rises elsewhere where it is?. Remember sometimes it takes a while before sun rises?. If you read other visions of the Hadith you brought up, and even this one say "it asks for permission". How?, I don't know. Other versions say sometimes Allah denies it permission to rise. I believe this to be true for obvious reasons.

I know there are fake ahadith but I don't think you are sincere in your critisms. Weather forecast is enough to tell you that sun does gets delayed before it rises sometimes. This could be the time permission to rise is denied. I believe this Hadith is valid.

Where is the sun prior it rising time?
The sun is still relatively in its orbit where people in other part of the world see it brightly shinning. Just before sunrise in Lagos, the sun is already brightly shining in Dubai. If sunrise in Lagos is delayed, it doesn't change the fact that the sun is already in the sky. But the writer wants to believe it is still prostrating and seeking permission to rise, whereas that same sun is already visibly shining in the sky in Dubai.

Please, keep in mind that the sun only prostrates after it has set according to this hadith.

Delay in sunrise may be due to atmospheric factors that obstruct the solar radiation from reaching us. This does not practically mean the sun is still absent when it's suppose to have risen.

The writer accuse me of insincerity in my criticism, but it's funny. Any one who took senior secondary school Geography lessons on Earth rotation will laugh in the face of the above hadith. I'm thus surprised to find many traditionalists defending this hadith. Whether this is borne out of ignorance or desperation to defend about just any sahih hadith, I can't tell.

What about the Qur'anic verses on the sun prostration?
I personally understand that the sun does not need a break at sunset to prostrate, it prostrates while its functions as a lamp. I believe the sun prostrate at sunrise, mid morning, noon afternoon, dusk, twilight etc. I don't believe the sun has specific time for prostration.

Empiree:
No, the highlighted you cited is rather referring to rituals and good deeds. For instance, no matter how great our generation is, we can not be greater than the Sahaba. Why?. Because they met the prophet (saw). They saw him. They struggled with him yet a whole lots of them don't even know or read many books like we do. Yet many things we know today are derived from their practical work. They endured worst hardships. So those who met the prophet are greater than is in this sense.

Only a faction amongst muslims closed the door on ijtihad. Not so Muslims. I remember having discussions with a brother here who always disagree with me, and he said there is no more ijtihad IF we encounter a situation and the situation has precedent, then we apply ijtihad done by sohaba. We only apply our own ijtihad IF situation did not exist in their time. He said. Many times have told him that sahaba aren't here now and we are faced with new situations but he snubbed me.

Actually I should ask you what do you mean by ijtihad?. What do you expect to be amended in iur literature? Salat, Ramadan, Hajj, ZAKAT?

Or Huddud?. I need to understand this please. What exactly do you want to be reformed?.


Is this type of reform you talking about?

Peace.

Let's not lose perspective. My entire purpose of raising this discussion from Dontconvert2Islam is to point the fact that many Muslims today remain ignorant & and those who are not ignorant do not want to understand traditional Islam from the perspective of ijma. You and many others, deny the ijma on several verses and hadith, and interpret them in your own way. When ever you decide to go against the ijma like this, you're basically doing ijtihad. And such ijtihad is illegal from a traditional scholarly standpoint.

This is my whole point. I must have lost you somewhere along the line. But I was never expressing a need for reform.

Peace Empiree

"The person who fast on Arafat day is forgiven quicker than he who doesn't". Would have even be more convincing if you brought forth a supporting hadith or verse for such interpolation. You've now introduced another concept; Speed of sin forgiveness.

You're basically saying that God holds back on forgiving sinners that repents, except for those sinners that fast on special days.

We've reached a stumbling block here. I wouldn't want to drag this further. Q & A takes so much time. If you disagree with any other of my critique on Eid-el-Adha. You're free to leave behind your comments.

Rilwayne: :
Smh..

I don't accept this.

lexicokabeer:
Because?

Rilwayne: Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 54:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَن يَرْتَدَّ مِنكُمْ عَن دِينِهِ فَسَوْفَ يَأْتِي اللَّهُ بِقَوْمٍ يُحِبُّهُمْ وَيُحِبُّونَهُ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ يُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَلَا يَخَافُونَ لَوْمَةَ لَائِمٍ ذَٰلِكَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَن يَشَاءُ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

O you who have attained to faith! If you ever abandon your faith," God will in time bring forth [in your stead] people whom He loves and who love Him - humble towards the believers, proud towards all who deny the truth: [people] who strive hard in God's cause, and do not fear to be censured by anyone who might censure them: such is God's favour, which He grants unto whom He wills. And God is infinite, all-knowing

lexiconkabeer: How does this contradict the hadith? BTW you don't believe in hadith? Or you just follow the ones that suits you? Hope you know hadith is also a revelation?

Rilwayne is about the only moderate voice to engage lexiconkabeer with sacred textual evidence. But by the end of page two, Rilwayne like Tope, Alhajipablow and Anteena completely bowed out on a sad note.

In quoting supporting verses, Rilwayne must have thought he stood a chance against the orthodox position on apostasy. But, it's obvious to me that he never stood a chance.

See, traditional Islamic legislation is like a game with rules. To play the game and win, you must stick with the rules.
In tradition Islam, the Qur'an generalizes, it doesn't go into details. Hadith interpret, interpolate and extrapolate Qur'an. The Qur'an makes blanket statements, while the Hadith goes into specifics and exceptions.

By accepting Islam as preached by the jurists, Rilwayne have lived by legislations derived in respect of the traditional Islamic rules for legislation. For instance, salat is to be recited in a moderate volume according to Qur'an, but Rilwayne as a traditional Muslim recites his noon salat silently because the scholars teach this in accordance with hadith.

But when the subject of apostasy arises, Rilwayne is quick to dismiss the rules of the game to derive his own conclusion? This kind of inconsistency is a major loophole in the narratives of the liberals, and it will open them further to intellectual counterattacks from the conservatives.

The only way to overcome the dominance of the conservatives in this war of ideas is to first challenge the existing rules for Islamic legislation.
But the liberals or moderates have never attempted this. This is to their own detriment.

Till he vanished at the end of the next page, Rilwayne continued to quote verses supposedly supporting his position, earning him a lot of thumbs up(Likes). This confirms that many more Muslims oppose the death penalty but lack the courage to speak out. They are still awaiting an official fatwa from Saudi Arabia, declaring apostasy non-punishable. Until that happen very few Muslims dare speak out like Rilwayne did.

Empiree:
Well, you can say that again.

Well, the ball is in your court. I was only pointing out that your reasoning for the death of ijtihad is wrong.

Well, it is a matter of ijma. For as long as their differences outweigh their similarity it will take donkey years. Plus outside influences play major role. For instance, Western world are tampering with UAE and Saudi literatures.

This doesn't answer the question. Why did the update stop permanently in the first place. You mean for over 10 centuries, they had no update to make? And What Saudi literature and UAE literature? The Ijma is not not region specific.

You happy bcus i said that?

Happy!? Man, sometimes ago, the Saudi Prince or King spoke of vetting sahih hadith. You really think such announcements are enough to make my day? I am not living in a sharia state, I'm not bound by your laws & traditions, evolving them is of no benefit to me in any kind. The only reason I discuss them is because I understand they deviate from God's teachings and they harm minorities and innocent people in God's name.

Perhaps bcus they are close to kitab and sunnah than the former, and well placed things in perspective. You definitely don't expect them to have updated their original work since their work was in harmony with what goes on in their time. Listen, God's Law in the Supreme Law and Supreme Authority.

And their work is suddenly only in disharmony with our times? Do you realize there's been call for Ijtihad since the 18th century in the Muslim world.

You don't seem to read Muslim history from diverse sources. I will at this point finally state the reason why ijtihad is dead and why the only canon interpretation of traditional Islam is the Ijma of Malki, Hanbali, Hanafi, Shafi'i and Ja'fari schools of jurisprudence.

If you still remember, there are hadith stating;
- the best generations are the Prophet's, and the following two generations after him.
- that the Muslim ummah will never agree on something wrong.
- that a time will be reached where Muslims will be ignorant because all the knowledgeable scholars will have passed away.

Considering these hadith at a point in history, the scholars decide, "You know what, we've explained everything. We've done all the work for future Muslims. If they stick with this, they'll never go astray. They will not be qualified enough to do Ijtihad any better than we've done." This is how ijitihad ended.

Today, it is completely frowned upon for even Muslim scholar to arrive at a different conclusion from the Ijma. If today, as a Muslim, you are interpreting an hadith or verse differently from the Ijma interpretation, you are totally committing an offense.

For you as a lay man in traditional Islamic law, you can only stick with the ijma. You can't differ from them.

Empiree:
Are you despair or in doubt that Allah forgives sins of the past, present and future?. If that's your thought, then, that's you. You will find Allah where you leave Him. If you think He can not or does not forgive your sin bcus of 1 day fast on Arafat, it means you place your doubt in Him. In that case, let me remind you of this hadith


The Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) said: “Allah, Blessed and Exalted is He, says, ‘O son of Adam, as long as you call on Me, I shall forgive you of what you have done, and think nothing of it. O son of Adam, even if your sins were to reach up to the clouds in the sky, and then you were to ask for My forgiveness, I would forgive you and think nothing of it. O son of Adam, even if you were to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth, and then you were to meet Me after death, not worshipping anything besides Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as the earth.’” [Tirmidhi]


O, I forgot you don't believe hadith. Very well then. Let's take a look at ayah of Quran (Sura Az-Zumar)


Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."


If you think he doesn't forgive your sin for fasting on Arafat, you simple lose hope and you have no faith.

Peace!

There is no proof in such verses that God forgives people sins that have not been committed yet. Forgiveness comes after sin, not before sin.
Also, yes. God may forgive past sins of over a year, but do you think one really need to fast before this can happen?
Do you think that unless one fast on Arafat day, he cannot be forgiven for his sins of the last 12 months?

Speaking on the verse you quoted. I absolutely agree that God is merciful enough to forgive any amount of sins. But, it must be borne in mind that if the sinner returns to such sins, God will no longer forgive him. One can't continue to take God through a repetition of 'sin and asking forgiveness'. That will be insincere on the part of the sinner.

People should be taught that their past sins are forgiven if they permanently stop committing them. No amount of fasting will forgive your sins of 2018, if you resume those sins later in 2019. Obedience is better than sacrifice.

Empiree:
First, it is impossible due to too many iqtilaf today. I mean iqtilaf with boxing gloves. Back then their had iqtilaf peacefully without calling one another names.

Also, it is impossible to get rid of old books. They are still relevant because at some point, they are needed for logical deductions. It is like bible. The moment a sect wants to fix something another sect come up with their own version of the Bible.

There was iktilaf with boxing gloves back in the days. There were physical clashes between students of one imam and students of another imam. Even the imams themselves were threatened. The Hanbali students have been reported to have attacked Al Tabari, destroyed his house, where he died under the rubble.
This can be found in works of even Muslim historians.

I didnt say get rid of old books. I say why haven't they been update? I mean, you understand that Islam has to evolve, right?

The Imams themselves wrote very little upon death. Their students and students of their student kept updating the original work. This is evolution, but this was arrested in 10-11th century.

Next, there were way more than 4 schools of jurisprudence. Iktilaf may be the reason why only 4 schools were legalized later on. But why did these for schools stop updating their work?
There is a huge reason for this, it's not iktilaf.

Empiree:
well, let me see where you are driving at. Ofcourse I understand that Arafat is separate from Eld. This is why Eld lasts for 3 days. Some celebrate eld on Tuesday. Some on Wednesday. Some Thursday this yr.

I don't know if that's what you are referring to. So clarify yourself before I comment further. But Arafah is one day.

First, do you really think God will forgive all Muslim's sins of last this lunar year and the next lunar year if he fasts on Arafat day?

Do you think a one day fast can wipe away so much past and future sins?

What is your take on sins and forgiveness in Islam.

OK. Please Empiree, Rashduct4luv lets restrict our posts to the subject of the thread; Arafat fast, Eid date, Abraham's test, Dhabiha, and meat.

This not 2015 anymore. I no longer do back and forth debate on validity of Hadith with anyone. What I do now is criticism of Hadith matn (content).

Empiree, the problem the traditional Muslim community faces is this. There is yet to be an official update on the Ijma since about the 10th century. If you collect the books of ijma today, they are basically the translation of ancient work, no correction, no revision. Without resorting to Ijma, it is difficult for a critic to decide what constitute traditional Islam, how is this or that hadith interpreted.

This is why sometimes I criticize an hadith, and you come up with; "Oops, that is not the meaning, you're taking the hadith in isolation". Well, that's the meaning according to Ijma.

Anteena: Let assume one of ur siblings change religion, will u kill him or her?

A rational question, by Anteena. But rationality have no place in traditional religions. Traditional Islam does not share the idea that death sentence is only justifiable for murder. The rational principle that "Punishment must fit the crime" is not recognized in traditional Islam.

This further lead us to another problem with Muslim moderates. Realizing that the traditional texts lend very little credit to their position, moderates try to argue with reason and logic. This effort utterly fails, because reason in itself does not appeal to religious masses. All the masses want is traditional Islamic texts explained by clerics & proving apostates are to be tolerated or executed, but the moderates cannot provide this.

In this kinds of internal debates among Muslims, moderates are often denounced as aiding the enemies of Islam or appealing to their desires.
You can observe this even on this thread;

Anteena: Ask him ooo, sheikh Agege sometimes ago laid emphasis on some these hadith quotations that there are some wrong ones which we all know prophet cannot say, people are shouting here and there that he doesn't knw what he is saying, so, in a case where God says and prophet says to Sahih Buhari says, please which one do we count as authentic?

lexiconkabeer: Are you going to follow your whims, or you gonna follow clear proofs?

Derogatory terms like "modernists Muslims, westernized Muslims, non-observant Muslims or apostates" have been employed to marginalize liberals or moderates who seek to point out and denounce harmful teachings and ideas in traditional Islam.

For such reasons, it is very clear that many Muslims are afraid to speak out in condemnation of these harmful sharia decrees. They either keep quiet when these debate arises or they hypocritically side with the conservative voices.

Further down the thread, you'll see that the conservative voices ultimately suppressed the moderates. This has been the status quo in the war of ideas between the moderate Muslims and the conservative Muslims.

Now, here is where things get really heated. Alhajipablow, Anteena, Rilwayne were the first to confront lexiconkabeer. Their whole argument is that the hadith on killing apostates contradict the verse of the Qur'an on freedom of beliefs and in such a case, the hadith must be discarded.

This theory that hadith contradictory to Qur'an ought to be neglected has no root in traditional Islamic legislation. The jurists see the hadith as elaboration of Qur'an, both always are in harmony. And perceived contradiction is explained as misunderstanding on part of the reader. This is the point lexiconkabeer makes to back the hadith he cited.

Alhajipablow: LexiconKabeer is it your post we should accept or the ones of those who posted before you?

How Sahib is the Hadith you quoted?

I strongly believe he knows this hadith are classified authentic, but wants to believe otherwise. And his wish is to see someone with more knowledge soundly prove the weakness of this hadith. But this did not happen.

I won't bet on that though, it is completely possible that Alhajipablow is ignorant of those hadith and honestly want to be sure. Most Muslims do not understand traditional Islam beyond the basic and publicized aspect like salat, fasting, hijab, charity, no pork, no alcohol, no sex outside marriage.

If you stop a random Muslim on the street and ask him, "Hey, in Judaism, apostates are sentenced to death. Is it the same for apostates in Islam?"

8 of 10 will answer NO to this question. This problem of ignorance among Muslims is really a danger. It's like an abused spouse who is ignorant that they are being abused by their spouse. How do you diagnose the marital abuse? How do you get Muslims to officially denounce the penalty for apostasy if many of them are ignorant that such a penalty exist in their religion?

Empiree:
It is still his fault. First all, he wasn't interested in whatever Muslims had to say when they tried to counter his assertions on the Hadith.

Second, myself know the hadith appears complicated to me at at least. The confusion stem from translation and interpretation of the Arabic text in the Hadith. Everyone interpreted it to suit themselves. Alhusunnah in Nigeria gave their explanatiom. Sheikh Habib also gave his, and they both have different views.


Third, what I said to him back then was this is no excuse for living Islam. All he had to do was to weigh it with Quran standards. He did actually but then, because he already made up his mind, he interpreted the Ayah of Quran to suit the Hadith. He simply mixed it and got himself in deep doodoo.

Fourth, I asked him back then if he was so concerned about this particular topic, remember he dwelled in it for long?. Why then he went back to Christianity which has similar or worse case scenario?. There are lots of sexual abuses and rape sanctions in the religion he's now but he ignored. The same book that the British used to enslave the world.

Since hadith is not guaranteed protection by Allah, why should he feel betrayed over peanuts?. It means he was on a mission. You could see he went to masjid pretending to be Muslim but he already left at that time without making it public and mocked adhan. He released the video much more later.

I skied again, why should he feel betrayed?. I read stuff in the aHadith that I'm not comfortable with. What I ask myself "did nabi(saw) actually say or do this?. Before I openly criticize the Hadith I look around for possible tafsir and or tawil. If there is no supporting literature and no data to explain further, I ignore such Hadith even if main stream claim it is valid.

Example of such is statement attributed to nabi (saw) that he would burn or he feels like burning men who don't pray at masjid after adhan is called. Explaination given by some scholars is ridiculous. So I consider such to be fabricated.

But a hadith that appear violent but it is restricted to war zone, I only understand such Hadith in that restricted manner. This doesn't neccessarily make it fabricated bcuz rule of engagement may be altered at some point. Example of that was Obama. If you live many yrs from now, watch media quote his statement on is!s that appears to make him a violent president against Islam and muslims. Meanwhile he was talking about specific people.

So don'tconver2islam is a joke. His rants won't stop Islam and muslims in the least. He betrayed himself. Allah tested him and he failed woefully. He had no iklas to begin with. He forgot that history may be altered (which he is focusing on) while the focus message of Islam is La ilaha ila Allahu. He forgot that.

Apart from that common sense should tell him that no religion sanctions rape or even illegal sexual intercourse. Anyways, let's just say he's still on spiritual transition. You never know he may wake up tomorrow and denounce Christianity again and claim Buddhism is the truth. So this is not new.

Peace.

I'm not saying he is important. I was trying to use his case to make a point, that how come he didn't know about such hadith for a very long time while preaching Islam? Anyway, let's leave it at that.

From what I can tell, you do not share his understanding of the hadith. Man, you know. For a traditionalist, you sure seem to be doing your own ijtihad - reinterpreting hadith differently from the consensus(Ijma).

Let me explain.
In view of the clergymen, there is Qur'an, there is hadith and there is Ijma. For the traditional scholars;
- the Qur'an must be understood from the view of ancient exegetes like Ibn Kathir. You hold this view as well.
- the Hadith also interprets, interpolate and extrapolates the Qur'an for practical purposes.
- then Ijma is the scholarly consensus, it is the in-depth elaboration of Qur'an and Hadith for practical purposes.

I believe you agree with all of the above.

If we look at Ijma, we will find that the interpretation of the hadith on sex with female captives differ widely from what you understand. To be more direct, find out the position of the four traditional sunni schools of jurisprudence on this issue.

It seem like sometimes you deviate from Ijma. You're not alone in this, tbaba234 does it as well, many traditionalists today do it. But there are many traditionalists who will oppose you for this. You will meet strict traditionalists who insist on implementing verses and hadith according to Ijma, not Ijma of contemporary scholars like Yasir Qadhir.... etc, but earliest jurists of Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali or Shafi schools of jurisprudence.

In that case, how will you deal with such fundamentalists? You think you can convince them to overlook the consensus of the ancient jurists in certain cases? When in fact you follow the consensus in other cases?

Empiree:
Usermane at it again

Do you want me to whoop yo ¥ss again

I remembered you made this same criticisms few years ago. Virtually you have problems with not only voluntary Islamic traditions but obligatory practices.

This is why ain't taking you serious. You are only threading Islam you don't know it. We told you before if you think Qur'an isa novel book to be read mechanically?. The prophet (Sallalahu aliy wasalam) practicalized it.

Practical is where we derived HOW, WHERE and WHEN. The people at the time, the Sahaba, saw him do the practical. How many times we have to tell you this?.

I told you long before that the sole duty of the messenger is to convey the message(Qur'an 5:99). If there is anything needed for practice, the Lord will include it in the Qur'an. I can't believe I'm getting sucked into the rabbit hole again.

Man, "Is God not enough for His servant?"(Qur'an 39:36).

Rashduct4luv:
You are a liar. Those Qur'an verses never said that!

I'm not lying. Read and digest the verses. Abraham said he saw himself sacrificing his son to God. He then resolve that this must be a divine order to sacrifice his son.

Rashduct4luv:
Using this same logic of yours:

How do we calculate the number of days of Ramadan from the Qur'an?

How do we know the time for Solah and each Solah's number of Rakah from Qur'an?

How do we know how to do Zakat, Solah and Hajj in full from the Qur'an?

If you sincerely care for the answers to these questions, you know your way through Google to Muslim Websites that promote Qur'anic Islam.

Rashduct4luv:
Bros! Muhammad salallahu alayhi wa salam is to be obeyed as Allah says

(a) Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allaah . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:80] Allaah described obedience to the Prophet (peace be upon him) as being a part of obedience to Him. Then He made a connection between obedience to Him and obedience to the Prophet (peace be upon him): “O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]

(b) Allaah warns us not to go against the Prophet (peace be upon him), and states that whoever disobeys him will be doomed to eternal Hell. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “. . . And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some fitnah (trial, affliction, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [al-Nur 24:63]

(c) Allaah has made obedience to His Prophet a religious duty; resisting or opposing it is a sign of hypocrisy: “”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:65]

(d) Allaah commands His slaves to respond to Him and His Messenger: “O you who believe! Answer Allaah (by obeying Him) and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life . . .” [al-Anfaal 8:24]

(e) Allaah also commands His slaves to refer all disputes to him: “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]

How do we obey the Messenger?



An average Muslim should believe that Allah forgives whoever He wills...And that Allah can do all things.

If Allah can forgive the Prophet's past and future sins according to Surat Al Fath vs 2, He can forgive anyone He wishes to forgive.

That Allah may forgive you your sins of the past and the future and complete his favour on you......Qur'an 48 vs 2

The prophet is just one person. His future sins and the circumstance pertaining to such sins would have been foresighted by God to warrant forgiveness. This is not the case for every Muslim that fast on Arafat day.

As for "Obey Allah and Obey the messenger", I do not share your interpretation that "Obey the messenger" mean obey hadith. The messenger judged according to the Qur'an, he could never derive legislation and invent doctrines on his own. The only legislator in Islam is God, not God + messenger. God never shares his authority in legislation with anyone.(Qur'an 4:105)

Please, see Qur'an 69:38-47.

Peace.

Empiree, you say you're aware of these corruption but from your comments on my thread on Qur'an alone, you don't seem to. And this is the point I'm driving with Convert2Islam. This young man is prime example that most people even the most devoted Muslims can be completely ignorant of the corruption.

Recall his earlier video after apostasy? Where he addresses the Hadith sanctioning sex with female captives? The only people who know these things are of course the scholars.

The scholars rarely touch such Hadith. When they do, they do not criticize it, they try to interpret it differently from how the classical jurists understood them. They deny that ISIS militant sex enslavement of Yazidi women have nothing to do with Islam.

This is why people like DontConvert2Islam continue in ignorance of the corruption. And when they find the truth, they feel betrayed.

Transparency, there need to be more of it in the traditional Muslim discourse.

Peace.

Peace.

Empiree, this is for you. Since you continue brawling with me on the validity of Hadith. And you feel offended by my critique of your co-religionists.

What do you think of the YouTuber Convert2Islam's apostasy?

I know you know him on a personal level, you used to cite him a lot in the past.

Sheun: In your view, what is the right punishment for a muslim who says, "I don't want to follow Islam anymore. I want to be a Christian (or Atheist)"?

Topestbily:
Quran 2: 256

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Quran 109*:1-6
Say, "O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

Sheun is an atheist, who knows well enough the answer to this question from an academic point of view in traditional Islam. I believe Sheun is not a novice to Islam, looking for answer. Sheun was most likely asking; "Hey, what do you think about the penalty of death apostates for Islam? Do you think this is right?"

But Sheun knows that asking with such brutal honesty may trigger some Muslim posters. He has to ask in the most neutral and non-challenging manner as possible so that no one will be provoked. I mean, he knows there is a level of truth in the notion that Muslim community is easily offended by criticism or challenges to her beliefs.

Now, in a community where people are afraid to pose challenging on the tradition, backward and harmful traditions can't be expunged. This is the first problem that plaguing the Muslim community.

We'll get back to Sheun, but let's see the first reply.


Topestbily was brief, he cites the verses. Apostates are free, he implies. Then Tope disappears, and he never reappears ever again. Tope most probably is aware that this is not the formal opinion among scholars. In any condition, the penalty for apostasy is death in traditional Islam. He knows, but he refuse to agree with this. Tope knows hardliners will come after him with refutation. Probably unable to bear this, Tope took his leave.

Among traditional Muslims, hardline fundamentalists and ultraconservatives generally have more supporting evidences than moderates and liberals like Tope. Most of the backward, anti-human rights or restrictive practices that moderate Muslims reject are well mandated or recommended by traditional Islamic text, giving the ultraconservatives the upper hand in the war of ideas.

Throughout this thread, you will see how the moderates or liberals struggled badly against the ultraconservatives. You'll see why Tope's view is wrong from a traditional Islamic text standpoint and why he was indeed better off disappearing off the thread.

NB: The next(third) post on this thread had been deleted. I've reposted it at the bottom of the page. Click the link below to read it first, to get a better context, then return for the fourth post that follows. Next(third) Post

Peace


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPvnFDDQHk&t=663s
The Untold Story of Muslim opinions and demographics

The following link is a documentary on the degree of Fundamentalism(non-violent extremism) among Muslims. It contain a review of Pew survey on the Muslim population view on death penalty for apostasy, adultery, gay and blasphemers. It is a poignant clarification that way more than 5% of the Muslim world are plain extremists who uphold views antagonistic to human rights laws.

Why in 2018, in the information age, do Muslims still cling to such harmful teachings that continue to harm innocent lives? Why haven't Muslims come out to admit this is a problematic issue that need to be dealt with, that prove there is a fault in their ideology?

To better answer these question, we try to delve into the Muslims' psyche on Islam by analyzing their comments in an old thread - What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate?

NB: I do not want unwarranted attention in this thread. So while quoting comments, I'll spell the usernames incorrectly. But the pronunciation of the names will be same so you can identify the poster I address.

Hadith #7
Hadith breeding stupidity and Ignorance

Sahih al-Bukhari » Book of Oneness, Uniqueness of Allah

Narrated Abu Dharr:
I entered the mosque while Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet (ﷺ) recited, "That: "And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by `Abdullah.

I stumbled upon this hadith very recently and my first reaction on reading it was laughter. For days, this hadith continued to crop into my mind, cracking me up even after a bad day.

Argument for Hadith
Do not interpret this literally. The sun prostration is not the same as human prostration. The hadith is not saying that the sun disappears from the sky after sunset to prostrate somewhere.

Then what is it saying? What is it saying? If anything, it is saying that when we no longer see the sun after sunset, it is prostrating to its Lord. Which mean, the sun does not prostrate at day time while shining in the sky, it prostrate after sunset. But at sunset in one part of the world, the same sun is actually brightly shining in the sky at another part of the world.

This is the problem with even a symbolic or non-literal interpretation of the above hadith? It is self contradictory.
Please, notice the Prophet's supposed question; "Do you know where the sun goes?" How else do you interpret "goes" here? It clearly hint that the sun breaks from its function of igniting the sky.

Sincerely speaking the fabricators of these hadith, were ignorant folks that that had no basic knowledge of astronomy. They did not understand the Qur'anic verse in question, so what did they do? They derived an half-ass interpretation and fabricated an hadith to cover their ass. Now, when their descendants today proclaim hadith explain the Qur'an, they are actually referring to ignorant and stupid hadith like the above.

Ignorance and Con artistry behind Arafat day fast

There is no issue with persons who opt to fast on any day if they feel it would increase them in piety. There is an issue with people who fast on a specific date and attribute this fast to God with illogical promises of forgiveness or rewards.

Let's look again at the hadith on Arafat day fast.

Sunan Ibn Majah » Fasting
It was narrated from Abu Qatadah that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
“Fasting on the Day of ‘Arafah, I hope from Allah, expiates for the sins of the year before and the year after.”

It simplifies sins and forgiveness to the same level as Health and Medical insurance. You fast today, all your sins for next year will be forgiven; You pay insurance fee today, all your bills for next year will be covered. The difference being that while the medical insurance benefit does reach you, the promised benefit of fasting on Arafat day completely eludes you.

If we read the Qur'anic verses on sins and forgiveness, we find a few verses implying that sins are only forgiven if the sinner desist for good.

6:54 And if those who believe in Our revelations come to you, then say: "Peace be upon you, our Lord has decreed mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits sin out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and amends, then He is Forgiving, Merciful."

If you fast on Arafat day, you of course get rewarded as fasting on any other day. But even if you fasted to be forgiven of your sins all through this year, your sins won't be forgiven if you persist in them.

The same applies to forgiveness of future sins, Islam doesn't work that way. No such thing as 'Sin Insurance Offers'. If you sin, just repent to God and desist for good. You cannot wipe the slate clean by just abstaining from food and sex for a day or more.

Do not let anyone con you with special fast and robust reward of forgiveness awaiting you. There is no short cut to God's forgiveness than desisting from those particular sins you keep repeating. No amount of fasting, praying or charity will acquit you of your sins unless you discipline yourself.

^^^^

Sure thing. And ban the OP as well. How dare he question our religious tradition!

5/5. Too much meat.
Remember I mentioned earlier that the Qur’an allows hajj anytime over a period of months, not five exclusive days of only one particular month as taught by Muslims. This way, not all annual pilgrims are crammed in the sites at once and thus preventing overcrowding and associated hazards that have claimed lots of lives.

This way, not all pilgrims sacrifice their animal on the same day. Next, keep in mind that animal sacrifice is mentioned only in regards to pilgrims, not for every capable Muslim in every nook of the earth. Also, pilgrims do not have to all offer animal sacrifice individually.

Accepting these Qur’anic facts would conserve a lot of resources and animal lives. But Muslims have for long abandoned the Qur’an, distorting and violating its teachings with the traditions of their fathers, which they ascribed to Muhammad. Now, look the grave consequence today.

Within the three days of Eid, about a few millions of animals are sacrificed by pilgrims during annual hajj. People, it’s reported there’s been so much meat in excess and so much had to be burnt or buried. Or shipped outside the Saudi kingdom.
https://www.thenational.ae/world/flash-freezing-takes-care-of-surplus-meat-from-haj-sacrifice-1.310668

But, I know, right? Who’s going to collect this much meat when tens to probably hundreds of millions of animals are already sacrificed on the same day by non-pilgrim Muslims worldwide?

As a Muslim alerted to animal slaughter on such a largely wasteful scale and conducted within a few days in the name of God, I find myself more appreciative of the vegan movement. And many Muslims share my stance. See links below.

https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/anila-muhammad/animal-muslim-eid_b_1971072.html - Should Muslims Reconsider Animal Slaughter on Eid?

http://thecompassionatemuslim..com/2012/09/test-post-title.html?m=1#comment-form

Peace.

4/5. Animal slaughtered improperly:
When Muslims sacrifice animals, they lay it down, slit it throat and let it bleed to death - Dhabiha. A cumbersome and easily botched method, carelessly conducted in abattoirs busy with customers on Eid day.

Dhabiha is also not as humane or painless as often claimed. It may take tens of seconds for animal to bleed to death. If there is any religious method of animal slaughter closest to humane and painless, it is the Sikh’s method; Jhatka.

The bigger problem however is with those Muslims that insist dhabiha slaughtered animals are the only source of halal meat. And that any alternative method risking the animal death before live slitting of its throat is haram. The meat is haram, even if the animal death is less painful and more humane than dhabiha. It’s for this reason that some Muslim scholars reject even stunning before dhabiha.

I mean, really?? Only dhabiha meat is halal? Is meat of wild animals hunted and killed in the forest by spears, bow and arrow or gun haram?
My God. The irrationality of religious dogmas.