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Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 4:01pm On Sep 12, 2018

Prisoners of War(POW): Between Slavery and Imprisonment

There is the argument that traditional Islam only enslaves POW and that it's more merciful to enslave POW than imprison them. Depending on circumstances, this may be true.

But bear in mind that these POW may be completely innocent, undeserving of losing their personal freedom. Recall Hadith #4, that commands Muslims to launch offensive war against non-Muslims. Then, those non-Muslims who actively join in defense to resist the Muslim invaders become POW or slaves on captivity.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 3:58pm On Sep 12, 2018

A norm throughout Muslim history, Hadith report the prevalence of slave trading among Muslims in Muhammad's days.

Sunan Ibn Majah » The Chapters on Manumission
Jabir bin `Abdullah was heard to say:
“We used to sell our slave women and the mothers of our children (Umahat Awaldina) when the Prophet (ﷺ) was still living among us, and we did not see anything wrong with that.”

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 3:56pm On Sep 12, 2018

Hadith #9
Hadith breeding Slavery

Sahih al-Bukhari » Book of Sales and Trade
Narrated Jabir bin `Abdullah:
A man decided that a slave of his would be manumitted after his death and later on he was in need of money, so the Prophet (ﷺ) took the slave and said, "Who will buy this slave from me?" Nu'aim bin `Abdullah bought him for such and such price and the Prophet (ﷺ) gave him the slave.

There is a saying that Islam abolished slavery. Yet slavery did not end in the Muslim world till the twentieth century.

Muhammad referenced in the Qur'an would not cancel manumission of a slave. If the slave owner badly needed money, Muhammad would have raised some on his behalf.

Islam › Re: Commentary On Apostasy Thread by usermane(op): 1:25pm On Sep 08, 2018*

The emergence of Empyree introduced a new position into the discourse. "Apostasy in punishable but only when the apostate becomes a threat to the Muslim state. Apostasy is treason."

Then tbobo1234 would come in later to refine Empyree's position. If you still recall, this is the same position promulgated by ShiaMoslem as early as page 1 but barely earned as much thumbs up.

Empyree: The context of the hadith in reference to another hadith that you failed to cite in your #5 is when the prophet(saw) made the statement, it was in the time of war and if the apostate poses a threat to the community. So it is to mean that in that time when every man was a soldier at war and call to defend Muslim populace and then he joins the other side(enemy) and divulges the secrets of Muslim military to the enemy, then he's to be killed. This is clear case of treason. This is also general rule in any given nations today.

tbobo1234: However in an Islamic state, there are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

The act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

If someone leaves Islam in an Islamic state for whatever reason, as long as he doesn't go around opening trying to convert people to whatever belief/unbelief he has found thereby trying to discredit the constitution of the state. He is fine.

Empyree, tbobo1234 and ShiaMoslem sought to strike a balance, by deriving an interpretation that would appeal to Muslims while asserting the validity of the hadith. But how successful were they?

They failed to convince lexiconkabeer to change his stand. In fact if you read till the end of the thread, Newnaz, bosar, Hebariom, easymoh, AminuRanu, yahmuh27 joined the discussion on the side of lexiconkabeer.

Lexiconkabeer sees the position of Empyree or tbobo1234 hold no support from the traditional Muslim jurisprudence. And he remained unshaken by their long winded exegesis. He may seem like an extremist, but in the end he's just another Muslim trying hard to tell it as it is.

Now, tbobo1234 and Empyree's view seem some what less harsh, but it is highly toxic. It'll definitely attract the approval of the masses, 99% of whom know nothing about sharia. These Muslims will continue in ignorance, denying killing for apostates.

But as more of these Muslims learn of sharia, they'll uncover the truth about the penalty for apostasy. And in bid to be honest like lexiconkabeer, they'll begin admitting the truth. Thus, even beyond 2018, this barbaric law will continue to be approved in the Muslim community.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 7:47am On Sep 08, 2018

Fatwa: Whether Muslim is killed for killing non-Muslim

According to the view of the majority of the scholars may Allaah have mercy upon them a Muslim should not be killed against a free non-Muslim under the Muslim rule. The evidence about this is the saying of the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ): "A Muslim should not be killed for killing a non-Muslim." [At-Tirmithi]

Moreover, according to the view of the majority of the scholars may Allaah have mercy upon them the title (and rulings) “disbeliever” is applicable to a free non-Muslim under the Muslim rule.

However, Abu Haneefah, and the scholars of his School of jurisprudence may Allaah have mercy upon them are of the view that a Muslim should be killed for killing a free non-Muslim under Muslim rule; their evidence is two verses(2:178, 5:45). Nonetheless, the correct opinion is that of the majority of the scholars may Allaah have mercy upon them that is based on the above Prophetic narration, which is a direct proof related to the case of dispute.

Allaah Knows best.

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=92261

Islam › Re: The Atheist In Islam For Muslims by usermane(m): 2:59am On Sep 08, 2018

budaatum:
Over in the Religion section there's all complaining that they got too many atheist and wonder why we aren't over here.

I figured they got a point so I've come over. Besides, they are seriously beginning to bore me with their often low mentality!

Hope this proves an upgrade.

What was your former religion?
Why did you quit?

3 Likes

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 11:22am On Sep 07, 2018*

Hadith 8.1

Sunan an-Nasa'i » The Book of Oaths
"The Messenger of Allah said: 'The blood money for Ahl Adh-Dhimmah is half that of the blood money for the Muslims, and they are the Jews and Christians."

In sharia compliant Muslim community, Muslims rank above non-Muslims. And men rank above women, so the fine for homicide of a woman is a fraction of a man. https://sunnah.com/urn/416323

Sharia activists try to explain this away on ground that non-Muslims contribute less than Muslims to the Islamic state since they are exempted from responsibilities like zakat, jihad etc.

But how? Hello? Isn't this your argument for charging them jizya? Isn't it sharia that opt to marginalize non-Muslims, thereby limiting their participation or contribution to society.

If you're going to decide homicide fine based on contribution to society, then how about taking individual occupation into account? Is it sensible to charge more fine for the homicide of a Muslim blacksmith than a Christian Surgeon?

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 11:21am On Sep 07, 2018

Hadith Fostering Muslim Supremacy and Bias

Hadith #1; "Never say salaam to Jews & Christians, Push them to the narrowest path of the road". Some poster attempted distorting the straight forward meaning of this hostile directive to Muslims. But only those who lie to themselves undermine the harm in this hadith.

Now enter, Hadith #8. Another proof at the depth of anti-non Muslim bigotry in traditional Islam.

Hadith #8:

Sunan Abi Dawud » Book of Types of Blood-Wit (Kitab Al-Diyat)
Narrated 'Amr b. Shu'aib:
On his father's authority said that his grandfather reported the Prophet (ﷺ) said: A believer will not be killed for an infidel. If anyone kills a man deliberately, he is to be handed over to the relatives of the one who has been killed. If they wish, they may kill, but if they wish, they may accept blood-wit

Because in traditional Islam, non-Muslims are lower in status than Muslims, a Muslim can't be executed even for deliberate murder of a non-Muslim. Such is the degree of respect for non-Muslim life in Hadith grounded Islam.

Instead of receiving a death sentence, the killer in an homicide may be fined to compensate the victim's family. In this fine, more proof of Muslim supremacy is evident.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 7:35am On Sep 07, 2018

Empiree:
If you wanna comb your hair, comb it. If you wanna unkempt, pls do so. Na by force? Have told you there is also possibility of mistakes with matn.

Quran mandate obligatory Friday prayer, do you pray this every friday?. This is fard congregational salah. You can't prayer yours separate. So do you offer Jummah in congregation or not?. If not then you have disbelieve.

I'm vindicated for not joining the congregation on Friday because they violate Qur'an 72:18. By invoking Muhammad in the site for God Alone, they violate the monotheistic value of Islam.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 6:36am On Sep 07, 2018

Empiree: Doesn't necessarily discarded but place on hold

You're kidding, right? You personally have no consistent response. Sometimes you ignore the hadith like stoning adulterers, other times you ignore the verse like reciting salat audibly. The so called sahabas who reportedly saw Muhammad recite silently also reportedly heard Muhammad order stoning of adulterers.

Look, I'm not a Christian or Atheist. You can't hornswoggle me that easily. I've entertain your dishonesty for so long and it's made me appreciate salafists like Newnaz, Fundamentalizt, lexiconkabeer who fiercely oppose me but have a consistent and honest approach to hadith. If an hadith contradict the Qur'an, Muslims' defer to the scholars for clarification, that is the official policy in your religion.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 4:32am On Sep 07, 2018

Empiree:
He(saw) understood perfectly what the Quran is saying. He practicalized it and his sahaba saw him.

I know, right? He understood perfectly what Qur'an is saying. That's why he permitted Muslim imperialism, slavery or killing apostates, and forbade combing the hair daily.
And his sahabas learnt it from him. So we have to trust them.

If you wanna do contrary, pls do so in your privacy. No one holds you sinful for that but don't disrupt the congregation.

Of course, I won't bother the congregation. But the imam is violating Qur'an. This truth must be said, in order to alert those who truly believe the Qur'an is written in detail, not in short hand.

And how does loud or silence in salat contradicts that ayah of Quran?. It doesn't.

For a person that cannot see the contradiction between reciting audibly and reciting silently, it's clear where your IQ lie on the scale. I shouldn't expect you to see the wrong in killing blasphemers/critics, killing apostates, marrying a 6 years old kid or disregarding wives's consent for sex.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 3:39am On Sep 07, 2018

Empiree:
He(saw) understood perfectly what the Quran is saying. He practicalized it and his sahaba saw him. If you wanna do contrary, pls do so in your privacy. No one holds you sinful for that but don't disrupt the congregation. And how does loud or silence in salat contradicts that ayah of Quran?. It doesn't.

Fella, please answer these questions;

- Do you believe some Hadith contradict
Qur'an? If yes, what should be done?

Next what's your general view on Hadith?
- Do you believe Muhammad received divine
revelations outside the Qur'an?

- Do you believe Muhammad had authority
forbid or prescribe what Qur'an is silent on?

1 Like

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 5:28pm On Sep 06, 2018

Empiree:
You dont get it?. This is not about history is most authoritative over Quran. It is about companions saw how the prophet prayed. How does that multiplied to authority of history over Quran?. I have seen a sunni boy who asked online sheikh question that he is finding it difficult to recite silently the salat zuhr and Asr. Sheikh told him exactly what i said. That's, if you are with congregation behind imam, you have to follow imam. You do not raise your voice or pray differently. Otherwise, you will be causing fitna in the mosque. Now, i have not said you're not muslim if you recite zuhr and asr aloud but i said you should do so when you offer salat in isolation.

And no, you can not tell imam to recite out loud zuhr and asr. Imam is authority in the masjid even if he is 6 years old you must obey him.

Your inconsistency is unbelievable. You've repeated previously that you'll reject any Hadith that contradict Qur'an. Why betray such principle now?

Please clarify your stand;

- Do you believe some Hadith contradict Qur'an? If yes, what should be done?

Next what's your general view on Hadith?
- Do you believe Muhammad received divine revelations outside the Qur'an?
- Do you believe Muhammad had authority forbid or prescribe what Qur'an is silent on?

1 Like

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 3:10pm On Sep 06, 2018*

A Traditional Muslim's Guide To Study Qur'an

Traditional Muslims do not study Qur'an first hand. It is encouraged to recite the Qur'an daily, but leave the studying to the scholars. Only the scholars have the requirements to study Qur'an; Knowledge on Hadith and Fiqh.

Sunan Abi Dawud » Book of Knowledge (Kitab Al-Ilm) »
Narrated Jundub:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said: If anyone interprets the Book of Allah in the light of his opinion even if he is right, he has erred.

The scholars will tell you what you need to know on the verses. Trust them, they are well qualified.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 11:21am On Sep 06, 2018

Groupthink - Is the condition the writer suffers from. "Let's just do things as we met others doing". A honest response would've been admitting even mosque Imams MUST recite audibly at noon and afternoon, not silently. This is the response of those devoted to Qur'an.

I dont wanna waste time by citing historical background bcus it makes no meaning to you.

Of course, for a traditionalist, history would be more authoritative than Qur'an. And community conformity must be protected even at the expense of truth.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 11:20am On Sep 06, 2018

Qur'an: True Devotion or Lip Service

Qur'an 17:110 - Recite salat neither loud nor silently but seek away between - audibly.

Yea, if you wanna recite loud voice fine. But when you join muslims in congregation you have no choice but to follow Imam. If you offer your zuhr and Asr in your privacy, recite loud if you want. That's btw you and Allah. But when you are with muslims in congregation you must conform with majority.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 5:56am On Sep 06, 2018

Empiree:
Am afraid you cited wrong ayah

Corrected. But you know the verse I meant

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 5:41am On Sep 06, 2018

Empiree: As for loud or silence in prayers as you indicated above, that's dhikr Quran is talking about not salat. Salat was practicalized and companions was him (saw)

Salat is to be said aloud. Read and digest these verses - Qur'an 17:110. The word used is salat, not dhikr.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 12:42pm On Sep 05, 2018

In pure Islam, Hadith are not considered divine or ideal basis for Qur'anic studies. Few hadith may help to understand verses, but the idea that Hadith is indispensable text for studying Qur'an is unfounded.

As Qur'an remain our frame of reference;
1 - Any Hadith contradicting Qur'an is rejected. E.g Qur'an order to say salat aloud V Hadith order to sometimes say salat silently.
2 - Any Hadith prescribing or prohibiting what Qur'an is silent on is negligible at best. E.g Qur'an silence on music and circumcision V Hadith respective prohibition and prescription of them.

This is the only near objective method of grading hadith. The traditionalists' method remain a subjective sham.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 12:39pm On Sep 05, 2018

A Muslim's Guide To Study Qur'an

In pure Islam, you need to understand Qur'an by yourself. You read it, ponder it. Keep the literary context in mind, it provide any necessary historical context. Relate the verses with other verses even in other chapters.

Ask other Muslims their take on the verses and analyze them, critically analyze writings of alternate scholars, compare numerous translations, double check the Arabic wording of the verses.

Think, think, think. You're not bound by any 'official' interpretation, you decide the most fitting interpretation from your findings. Whatever you resolve, be objective and sincere.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 2:55pm On Sep 03, 2018

You can see, these hadith do not consistently explain the Qur'an convincingly, they distort it with interpolation to produce ridiculous interpretation that even the traditionalists reject.

A few of them may be spot on concerning the verses but it remain a fact that hadith are not the ideal context or application of Qur'an that they are touted to be.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 2:54pm On Sep 03, 2018

B. Hadith attempting to explain Qur'an 24:31

Sahih al-Bukhari » Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an
Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba:
`Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their heads and faces with those cut pieces of cloth."

So they covered their faces right, but where did this verse mention face? You've got it, "Nowhere". Also, they covered their head? Or you mean their hair? No, there is a difference between the two. Covering the head does not equate to covering the hair. Beside, where is head mentioned in this verse?

The directive of the interpreted phrase is to cover their bosoms, so why didn't these women cover their bosom with their cut piece of cloth? Since when did bosom come to imply face and head?

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 2:52pm On Sep 03, 2018

2. The few hadith that specifically address certain verses often screw up in interpretation. Because their supposed context or application for the verses remain unconvincing.

For example;

A. Hadith #7 attempt to intepret Qur'an 36:38

"And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All- Knowing." (36.38)

The "fixed course of the sun" according to the hadith is its course from space to an unknown location(Throne of God) where it bows and returns back to space, and the circle is repeated daily(sunset to sunrise). Again, anyone with an understanding of basic Geography will scoff or laugh at such an interpretation.

But apparently, there are Muslims within the community who try to make sense of such an interpretation either out of intellectual dishonesty or just plain stupidity.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 2:51pm On Sep 03, 2018

If for argument sake, we accept Hadith as basis or context for Qur'an interpretation(Tafsir), there are still a few problems.

1. Only few verses specifically address certain verses. It's left for the reader of hadith to decide which hadith applies to certain verses. This will be a cumbersome task for the Qur'an interpreter as they'll have to sift through countless hadith to assign each verse to the relevant hadith.

Traditional Muslims have no specific count of the total number of hadith in existence. Outside the 6 main hadith books, there are over 15 other Hadith collections in Sunnite Islam. These collections remain mostly untranslated and unavailable in soft copy, so the the average Muslim cannot access them. So much for wanting to understand the Qur'an.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 2:51pm On Sep 03, 2018

Hadith as faulty basis for Tafsir.

The Book of God is self explanatory, this is the belief of those who have faith in it. The verses of Qur'an interpret each other in a way that it is possible to understand the Qur'an without resorting to tonnes of volumes of external man-made sources.

If Muslims read and fail to understand the verses, this is their own shortcoming, not an indication that Qur'an vaguely explain Islam. Yet, the Muslim who are too dumb or deceitful opt instead to supplant the Qur'an with traditions of their fathers. Whenever the the Qur'an doesn't confirm their traditions they accuse the Qur'an of ambiguity; where the Qur'an contradict their traditions, they abrogate the verse or undermine its significance.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 6:54am On Sep 03, 2018

Empiree:
^^^

Sir, why do you wanna suffocate over text?. There are bunch of people in NYC with unkempt hair man. They prolly need your help if you so much care.

Regardless what the hadith says, islam encourages hygiene the best way we can. You are one looking for shit in a sh1thole and you will ALWAYS always find sh1t

And i am sure you know cleaningness in islam is half of faith.

Cleanliness is half of faith but combing the hair daily is forbidden in the faith?

Nothing changes the fact that this Hadith is completely a joke, ridiculous! The messenger prohibiting trivial thing as combing the hair every morning. Combing the hair! It is sin to comb your hair daily??!! How silly.

Look man, ever since you proved your ignorance on basic Geography and your nonchalance to Muslim immigration to land of imperialists, I have been questioning your sanity.

1 Like

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 1:40am On Sep 03, 2018

Argument Hadith #7.2

Hygiene is encouraged in Hadith. In fact there are Hadith where the Prophet advised combing of unkept hair. Islam encourage regular hair combing.

Regular as in every two days, right? That's enough to keep the hair tidy according to Hadith. It's OK to wake up on Monday morning looking at the mirror and say;

"Well, that's not looking unkempt, I combed it yesterday. So this will do till tomorrow morning. For now, let me get ready for my job interview at 9:00 AM"

Untidy hair may not look unkept. It may look just fine to the owner but when you get out to meet people, they surely know you did not comb. Sure, it might not look disgusting like a caveman's and your collegues might be able to deal with it. But regardless, I don't think anyone wants to deal with such a situation.

2 Likes

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 8:56am On Sep 02, 2018

More Hadith breeding stupidity and ignorance

Hadith #7.2
Sunan Abi Dawud » Book of Combing the Hair
Narrated Abdullah ibn Mughaffal:
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) forbade combing the hair except every second day.

Combing hair? Something as hygienic as combing hair daily is forbidden daily, thus contributing to poor hygiene. I'll like to know how many imams teach these to the ignorant audience that frequently listen and nod to their sermons.

Hadith #7.3
Sahih al-Bukhari » Book of Good Manners and Form
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Allah loves sneezing but dislikes yawning; so if anyone of you sneezes and then praises Allah, every Muslim who hears him (praising Allah) has to say Tashmit to him. But as regards yawning, it is from Satan, so if one of you yawns, he should try his best to stop it, for when anyone of you yawns, Satan laughs at him."

So what exactly does Satan gains from making us yawn? Just a laugh? Satan is amused by babies and children yawning? If this is the case, why is yawning much associated with tiredness, sleeplessness or hunger?

Also, what's so special about sneezing that Allah loves it, is there any evidence in Hadith aside scholarly interpolation?

Hadith #7.4
Sahih al-Bukhari » Book of Beginning of Creation »
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The (Hell) Fire complained to its Lord saying, 'O my Lord! My different parts eat up each other.' So, He allowed it to take two breaths, one in the winter and the other in summer, and this is the reason for the severe heat and the bitter cold you find (in weather).

We're back to basic Geography again. This is the kind of ignorance and stupidity that the so called madrasahs especially in rural parts of the Muslim worlds specialize in teaching children.

I've hinted it before, the so called golden age of Islam could not have happened if there was widespread appreciation of hadith like these.

Peace!

1 Like

Islam › Re: What Is So Wrong With Trump's Muslim Immigration Ban? by usermane(op): 8:52am On Aug 31, 2018

Empiree:
This makes sense to you?. Imagine someone who is American citizen by birth. His entire family is there. Let's say African American who doesn't have immediate family in Africa beyond slave trade stories, and he is the only muslim convert in his family and you expect him to migrate to Africa or muslim country permanently and leave his family?. Islam values family, even if they are non-muslim. You know that. Imagine telling a Nigerian christian to reside permanently in Israel just because Jesus was born there?. You think this makes sense?

Man, you're unbelievable. What happened to putting truth and justice over self, family & friends?

These current muslim leaders, MOST, are compromised and left their people vulnerable.

Then let the people dethrone them. Start a revolution. It's better to remain and fix the problem than leave the problem.

Mind you there are muslims and non-muslims who oppose the govt and would refuse to pay taxes. They are jailed, released, jailed, released and over and over again.

Tax evasion is not the answer. We know the answer, but surprisingly, no one mentions it. We have imams cursing the west day in day out, and yet they will not admit it is wrong to live there and pay tax and develope the economy. This is insanity.

Israel is a controversial land. Muslims lived there prior to establishment of Israel. Large number of them were forced out due to land grab. Even those in Ramallah and gaza are squeezed due to israeli settlers. So you can not cite this as a case study.

You need to wake up. It's not just about occupation or dispossesion, it's about contributing to Israel war crimes with tax money, it's about contributing to Israel's economy.

The hadith was valid those days since Islam was not as yet spread to western hemisphere that time. This is part of Islam i was telling you evolves with time. Not a hadith that talks about sun and the moon etc. Maybe in the future this hadith may be active. For now, it is redundant. It is not ayah of Quran.

This is my opinion

You keep saying this? I did not say Islam is limited to one region, but as Muslim you need to develope your home first. If you cannot persevere in Muslim country, you can reside in non Muslim countries outside USA and Western Europe that do not fund wars against innocent people.

The only Muslims who may be excused in the short term for still living in Western Europe or US are the converts. All the rest Muslim there, the immigrants and children of immigrants needlessly have some blood in their hands.

Do you think that the Muslim terrorists are happy with you, a Muslim permanently residing in the West? Do you think they'll feel any remorse if a western Muslim get caught in their bomb blast?

Islam › Re: What Is So Wrong With Trump's Muslim Immigration Ban? by usermane(op): 3:23am On Aug 30, 2018

Empiree:
It is no longer the case of muslims anymore because there are citizens of these western countries who are muslims both converts and natural born muslims. This makes the hadith obsolete bcus islam is universal. At least this is my interpretation that you can agree with.

But.....how? Until the fall of the last Muslim caliphate. It was makroh for a Muslim to permanently migrate from Muslim land to non-Muslim land. If you are a convert to Islam in non-Muslim land, you're highly recommended to emigrate to Muslim land.

Today, when you have a non-Muslim country at war with Muslims, do you really think it's fair to live in such country permanently? Do you really think it's fair to the victims of the war in the middle east?

If you live in the west, you probably cannot judge this objectively. But unless you move out, you are contributing to the suffering of Palestinians, Syrians, Afghans, Yemenis and Iraqis. You are also guilty of supporting oppresive tyrants in the middle east with your money and labour.

Lastly, what do you think of Muslims living in Israel? This is also OK?

Islam › What Is So Wrong With Trump's Muslim Immigration Ban? by usermane(op): 10:00am On Aug 28, 2018

Traditional Muslims say; there is Islamophobia in the west, the Western governments are enemies of Islam and Muslims, their society is full of corruptions like gay marriage, nudity, porn, alcohol, usury and fornication. OK, I get it.

But why are you still there, in the land of the infidels? Why are you not planning to emigrate to Muslim countries? Why will a Muslim who's been living in Iran decide to relocate to USA? Why will any Muslim want to be in a country, paying tax money to the government that fund so many wars in the Muslim countries; Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Iran etc.

Do you forget the following hadith;

Narrated Jarir ibn Abdullah:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) sent an expedition to Khath'am. Some people sought protection by having recourse to prostration, and were hastily killed. When the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) heard that, he ordered half the blood-wit to be paid for them, saying: I am not responsible for any Muslim who stays among polytheists. They asked: Why, Apostle of Allah? He said: Their fires should not be visible to one another. Abu Dawud 2645

Some Muslims find every excuse to nullify this hadith. But look at the big picture; If you live in these countries, you have to pay tax, where do you think part of your tax money goes....? The military. The military that covertly finance terrorists like Hamas, Syrian rebels. The military that supports Israeli occupation.

When you live in such countries, you're offering your skills and expertise in developing their economies, thereby empowering them further beyond Muslim countries. You're empowering countries that allow what your religion has forbidden and sometimes disallow what your religion enjoins.

If anything, Trump's ban is helping traditional Muslims.

Islam › Re: Why Qur'an Alone? 2.0 by usermane(op): 7:54am On Aug 28, 2018

This is because in the early centuries of Islam, Qur'an was the only accessible revered text, hadith writing and duplication were still at infancy and it was really impossible for an individual to access so many hadith at the click of a button like we can today. Unrestricted by ignorant hadith like #7, some Muslims were able to harness the scientific and philosophical knowledge of Greek literature, culminating in the so called Golden Age of Islam. For these reasons, for much of history, the Muslim world remained more progressive than Christian world.

Towards the end of the middle ages, the Christian world started awakening. First with the Protestant reformation, followed by the era of enlightenment. They began to develop technologically, socially and military enough to overpower the Muslim caliphate ruled by the Ottomans.

Slavery was first abolished by the West, men, women & minorities have more rights in the Christian dominated west. Persecuted minorities including Christians, Jews, heretic Muslims, apostates now flee from Muslim world to the Christian world.

Technology, Medicine, Economics, Literature, Military, Music, Human rights; the Muslim countries have very little to offer in these areas. Despite the oil wealth of Saudi Arabia or Iran, these countries have very little incentives for migrants except a robust tax free salary and perhaps very low crime rates. In fact, rather than invest for human progress, these countries invest in exporting their ignorant Muslim creed across their borders.

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