Well,can't say 2 cor 8:9 is twisted but won't mind getting it straight.

"For ye know the grace of our lord Jesus christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."

Is this not a back-up for our financial prosperity? But, this is not in perfect correlation with christ's words about money and from the letters of paul and peter and james.

Thanks brethren.

I get u properly...its per head, some of us may offend in a way without being aware, when such pass on, they r likely to obtain forgiveness in d world to come. Not like i'm trusting in dt but this makes me to think dt there is hope for god's children who made little mistake which i don't think can make them to miss out. So there's forgiveness even in d world to come. A bit relieved!

anukulapo: Well,can't say 2 cor 8:9 is twisted but won't mind getting it straight.

"For ye know the grace of our lord Jesus christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."

Is this not a back-up for our financial prosperity? But, this is not in perfect correlation with christ's words about money and from the letters of paul and peter and james.

Thanks brethren.

Sounds to me like you've answered yourself and helped us all as well. To help things along a bit more, I'd point out that Jesus's financial condition during the days of His flesh were never spoken of, so there is nothing to reach into and say that it was financial poverty on His part that guaranteed financial wealth for us.

There are many kinds of poverty but that which Jesus embraced was the all-compassing type: He became an outcast from the Presence of His Father and gave up all the wonder and love and beauty in that fellowship so that we could be brought into it.

It wasn't just that He gave up His Godhood to come to become one with us but that in becoming one with us He took upon Himself all of our sin, the very roots of sin He took on as His Own. He became utterly revolting to His Father Whose Eyes Will Never Behold Iniquity and as a result He was left to Himself - the fate of all who reject God. This was the Cross. He gave up all the joy and wealth of His Father's Presence, and why? That we may be brought into all of that.

There is no ground in the Scripture for taking that bit of Scripture to mean that the Christian must be rich, and nothing there that says that Jesus's earthly life reeked of the financial kind of poverty which is what prosperity preachers dig their claws into at will.

@anikulapo i don't think jesus was poor at all...u noticed they cast lot over his cloth...dt must be designers. Teachings dt a christian must be rich is geared towards making christianity attractive...pple r into money so when u tell'em someone was poor so when they come on d scene they'll be rich, they turn around nd say really! Tell me more nd by dt d preacher gets a follower...lol. Prosperity is d bait

ATMC: I get u properly...its per head, some of us may offend in a way without being aware, when such pass on, they r likely to obtain forgiveness in d world to come. Not like i'm trusting in dt but this makes me to think dt there is hope for god's children who made little mistake which i don't think can make them to miss out. So there's forgiveness even in d world to come. A bit relieved!

One word of caution, dear sis. Our fate in eternity is not determined by sins we commit here but by our faith in Christ. If we believe in Him, His Righteousness is made over to us as ours. So, that you failed in one matter unknowingly or before a sudden death does not automatically disqualify you for Eternity with God.

In fact, when one has received the Life of Christ into their spirit, the constant fight with sin ought to come to an end. Forgiveness is already granted in Christ, by repentance we take hold of it. When we quit wrestling with sin and learn to live free in Christ, we'll find sinful tendencies steadily losing ground in us allowing us to pursue development with God, to know Him and His Ways. But as long as our eyes are trained on ourselves to ensure that we are utterly clean, we stagnate and our growth in grace is stunted. You have to believe that God's Power (that Nature or Spirit of God within you) is able to keep you from falling.

Therefore, I encourage you to stop worrying about what you did, have done or are doing that might be sin and keep your eyes trained on Jesus Christ to know Him and be made like Him.

ATMC: @anikulapo i don't think jesus was poor at all...u noticed they cast lot over his cloth...dt must be designers. Teachings dt a christian must be rich is geared towards making christianity attractive...pple r into money so when u tell'em someone was poor so when they come on d scene they'll be rich, they turn around nd say really! Tell me more nd by dt d preacher gets a follower...lol. Prosperity is d bait

It is a dangerous bait. And it hardly ever brings anyone to Christ. It hurls a lot of people into a Bible-justified pursuit of greed and selfishness.

ATMC: I get u properly...its per head, some of us may offend in a way without being aware, when such pass on, they r likely to obtain forgiveness in d world to come. Not like i'm trusting in dt but this makes me to think dt there is hope for god's children who made little mistake which i don't think can make them to miss out. So there's forgiveness even in d world to come. A bit relieved!

Hmm, sister to be honest it is a difficult question you asked and i must confess, I don't know enough to give you a straight answer but I trust in God's infinite wisdom about such matters of "after-world forgiveness".

What I will point out however is that "forgiveness in the world to come" still rests entirely with God. It is not a license to "mistakenly" sin in the hope of after-world forgiveness.
I sense a bit of "works-salvation" as well but I think Ihedinobi has touched that.
For now, trust God as your righteousness and then strive to enter through the narrow gate.


You know what is really cool that you can do? Ask the Holy Spirit to explain it to you. He will give you the best explanation. Trust Him

@ ATMC,

I "think" you are reading into that text of the words of Jesus. Like I said, the text does not suggest likeliness to forgiveness of some sin in the world to come but rather, it is referring to same sin against the Holy Spirit that will not be forgiven in the world to come. If you like, you can read from many translations of the Bible to get the true picture of that text or better still put it like this in our own words, for instance, like someone offend you and you are reporting to me/us and you are saying "you cannot forgive that person in this world or even in the world to come, over your dead body"......something like that. It does not suggest that you will forgive some sins in the world to come because there is no sin in that world to come, sin would have been completely destroyed because we are wearing incorruptible body by then.

Ihedinobi:

I see what you mean now. It's more whether a person's iniquities can be forgiven them after death as a result of prayers from the surviving loved ones than whether sin is possible in the world to come.

Well, that would have been tricky without all those Scriptures about repentance and forgiveness of sin. My dear sister, beloved of the Lord and mine as well, the Bible says that it shall no more be said that the fathers eat sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge (I will in an edition of this post indicate where it said so). The place addressed the problem of responsibility for sin. It is the soul that sinneth that shall die, not that which careth about it. What I mean is that we are all individually responsible, utterly responsible for our individual sins. Nobody can repent or be forgiven for another's sins. The only place where the Scriptures say things that seem to contradict are places like, "if you shall forgive any body their sin here on earth, it shall be forgiven them in heaven...", and that very place refered only to wrongs done to one or to the Body of Christ in their obedience to the Lord with Whom they walk.

No prayers made for anybody whether dead or alive can answer for their responsibility before God. Each man is responsible to repent for their sin against God and sue for mercy before Judgment. If they fail to do so in their lifetime, perhaps on the Day of Judgment they may have another chance (I am not going to discuss that), perhaps not, but one thing is certain: your prayers won't do anything for them. They alone are responsible for their failure.

I hope you understand this, sis. If you do not, please feel free to question me.

would you therefore say that Job was in error here:

5And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Job chapt 1.

And also this:

14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

1 Cor 7.

anukulapo: Well,can't say 2 cor 8:9 is twisted but won't mind getting it straight.

"For ye know the grace of our lord Jesus christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."

Is this not a back-up for our financial prosperity? But, this is not in perfect correlation with christ's words about money and from the letters of paul and peter and james.

Thanks brethren.

I believe this text speaks for itself. Now let us split the text to see if it doesn't contradict other scriptures. I think we have dealt with this text in the past. The best parallel kind of scripture I found to explain 2 Cor. 8:9 is 2 Corinthians 5:21, "For he has made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him". KJV

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (NIV)

The text in 2 Cor. 8:9 simply says, "though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor". Now the question is IN WHAT WAY OR IN WHAT WAS JESUS RICH IN? Is it in financial aspect or in other aspects relating to spiritual? We need to answer this question so determine what Jesus was rich in. The text simply says he was rich BUT for our sake, he became poor, WHY? ....."so that we through his poverty (that he became) might be rich.....not MUST be rich.

If we determine the context of Jesus' riches then we can determine the context of the riches that is meant by "we through his poverty might be rich". I believe this is how to rightly divide the word of truth.

Pastor AIO: 1 Cor 7:14

Pastor AIO,

I did an exposition on the above verse in the past, you may find it interesting.

Goshen360:

Those who are sanctified

Sanctified (#G37) is an English word from the Greek word – hagiazo rooted in the Greek word – hagios/hagos (#G40) and it means to make holy or make sacred (physically pure and morally/religiously blameless), purify, hallow, consecrated, to venerate, separated from and set apart to/for God. Many things in the Bible are called sanctified. The Sabbath Day was sanctified by God, which meant it was set apart for special service (Gen. 2:3). The Tabernacle and its furniture was set apart as the place of God's presence and for worship (Exod. 29:43, Lev. 8:10). Jesus was sanctified by the Father (John 10:36); food is sanctified when offered in prayer (1 Tim. 4:5). The believer is instructed to sanctify God in his heart (1 Pet. 3:15).

Jude says, “Sanctified by God the Father”. Jude states that he is addressing the letter to those "sanctified by God the Father." "Sanctify" means to make holy or to purify and being set apart for God's use and unique service. This is a deep word though it sounds very simple. God is the One that sanctifies the ones He called and He had sanctified them in His Son Jesus. Our sanctification is NOT of our works but by God. When God calls, He also sanctifies and had indeed sanctified. In the use of sanctified with relation to persons, it means to consecrate as being set apart by God and sent by Him for the performance of His will (John 10:36). It is also used in respect to person as devoted, set apart from a COMMON to a SACRED use since in the Jewish ritual; this was one great object of the purifications. (Matt 23:17; 23:19; 2 Tim. 2:21, Lev. 8:10, 30)

In 1 Cor. 7:14,

“For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy”.

Apostle Paul expanded on the how Christians are sanctified IN or in relationship with Christ to teach same revelation from a marriage covenant of a husband and wife. We (Christians) like our sinful acts are though still called saints because of our relationship with Christ, married or joined with Christ; God called us holy ones, sanctified ones. By the same revelation, Paul explains the sanctification of a believing spouse when married to an unbelieving one.

The sanctification (sanctified) here in 1 Cor. 7:14 is the word, hegiastai and it should NOT be confused to mean salvation. It means the unbelieving spouse is set apart on account of the believing partner. The unbeliever comes under a special and direct spiritual influence and benefits from the divine favour in the life of the believing spouse. As long as there is marriage covenant and contact, there is hope that the unbelieving spouse will turn to faith in Jesus Christ. The revelation here is that, in such marriage covenant, the believing spouse is NOT defiled by the unbeliever; rather the unbeliever is sanctified by the believer.

K. Thanks all. Your answer helped a great deal. When I remember another,I'll post.

Goshen360:

Pastor AIO,

I did an exposition on the above verse in the past, you may find it interesting.

Interesting stuff!

Job nko? Is it possible to make offerings on behalf of other people for the forgiveness of their sins?

Ihedinobi:

One word of caution, dear sis. Our fate in eternity is not determined by sins we commit here but by our faith in Christ. If we believe in Him, His Righteousness is made over to us as ours. So, that you failed in one matter unknowingly or before a sudden death does not automatically disqualify you for Eternity with God.

In fact, when one has received the Life of Christ into their spirit, the constant fight with sin ought to come to an end. Forgiveness is already granted in Christ, by repentance we take hold of it. When we quit wrestling with sin and learn to live free in Christ, we'll find sinful tendencies steadily losing ground in us allowing us to pursue development with God, to know Him and His Ways. But as long as our eyes are trained on ourselves to ensure that we are utterly clean, we stagnate and our growth in grace is stunted. You have to believe that God's Power (that Nature or Spirit of God within you) is able to keep you from falling.

Therefore, I encourage you to stop worrying about what you did, have done or are doing that might be sin and keep your eyes trained on Jesus Christ to know Him and be made like Him.

if my fate in eternity is determined by my faith in christ nd not what i did, then y would my bible tell me dt liars, fornicators won't have a part in heaven?

Again, what of d person dt had faith in god but died in d course of a certain sin...what's d person's fate seeing dt he had faith in christ?

ATMC: Again, what of d person dt had faith in god but died in d course of a certain sin...what's d person's fate seeing dt he had faith in christ?

There is no way a person who has faith (by this I mean born-again and spirit-filled can commit sin) Perhaps if you like we can walk through what it means to be born-again:

If you don't mind, What do you understand by being born-again?

Mark 16:17-18 KJV .
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; ...

Many have been questioned "are you born again with the evidence of speaking in tongues?"

The above scripture seems to be their reference and instances from the book of acts.

I wonder why they don't ask of other signs like "...with the evidence of casting out devils" or "...with the evidence of drinking deadly things and not being hurt?" And so on.

We know that "if any have not the spirit of christ, he's none of his"
Therefore,if the evidence of receiving the spirit is tongues,non tongue speakers are not going to be with christ for & in eternity?

Thanks. I await your clarifications.

ATMC: if my fate in eternity is determined by my faith in christ nd not what i did, then y would my bible tell me dt liars, fornicators won't have a part in heaven?

I'm leaving you to Mr Anony, dear sis. I'm quite weary from typing for so long and I want to tackle Pastor AIO's puzzle.

Goshen360, God bless you, bro. I'll add to your answer that the issue was God's Principle in marriage. God seeks by marriage to get a holy seed, this is why believers are not to marry unbelievers. But one of two married unbelievers could get saved, what then? They're not to leave the covenant as long as their spouse is pleased to be with them. Under such conditions, the believer's stand with God, rather than the unbeliever's, covers the product of the marriage.

As to the matter of Job, what can I say? I think that it is possible to cover a person over whom you have moral authority or for whom you hold moral responsibility. In that position, the idea is to delay judgment by your own acceptability with the judge in their behalf while you sue for repentance from them. It is like the parable Jesus told of the fig-tree that wouldn't bear fruit for its owner in Luke 13:6-8. It makes sense that you pray that God have mercy on a friend or relative or even an enemy of yours who is in sin, He will hear, but He hears because your request makes you responsible to work for their repentance. It is not that He forgive their sin (Scriptures say He can't until they themselves repent) but that He withhold judgment while you try to urge escape on them.

Job prayed to cover his children with his own acceptance with God. As far as we know, it worked until the day they died at a feast. It may be (but we are not told) that they refused their father's gentle urge to serve the Lord God, or it may not. Jesus did the same on the Cross and He still does it today. The Scriptures tell us to intercede (stand in the gap) for all men but intercession is not the same as repenting in their behalf, it is a request for the delay of judgment in the hope that the person or people being interceded for may repent.

So, I say again, that once a person has died, no prayers made for them from this side makes any sense. How can they repent being dead? When they are woken from death to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, we too will either already have stood there or will be standing there as well so how could we sue for mercy for them then or beg them to repent when Judgment has finally come?

Ihedinobi:

I'm leaving you to Mr Anony, dear sis. I'm quite weary from typing for so long and I want to tackle Pastor AIO's puzzle.

Pastor AIO doesn't present a puzzle at all. You can pray for the forgiveness of someone's sins and God will forgive.
Even Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing". (point of note; I do not hold that such forgiveness of particular sins = automatic redemption by the blood)

What I haven't found evidenced in the bible however, is a person praying for God to forgive someone that has already died, the bible even makes points to the fact that there is no forgiveness after death e.g. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

ATMC's original question puzzles me but I am sure that God if He wills it will reveal it to us, personally, I suspect the issue is not in the verse itself but probably how we are reading the verse. Let me not speculate sha.

Mr_Anony:
There is no way a person who has faith (by this I mean born-again and spirit-filled can commit sin) Perhaps if you like we can walk through what it means to be born-again:

If you don't mind, What do you understand by being born-again?

if there's no way a person who has faith in christ can sin then y did d bible talk about we having an advocate with d father if any one sins nd also forgiveness.
Moreover i understand being born again to be born of d spirit, having my old man put to death nd d new man come alive in christ.
Most of d follow up letters dt were written by paul addressed living in sin. For instance his letters to d romans. I'm saying dt all it takes is not just faith in christ but our actions as well. Dt's y i asked whether one who dies in d course of a particular sin will make it. Some pple believe dt nd i wonder where they got dt from.

Mr_Anony:
There is no way a person who has faith (by this I mean born-again and spirit-filled can commit sin) Perhaps if you like we can walk through what it means to be born-again:

If you don't mind, What do you understand by being born-again?

A little back-up for ATMC's question. Don't suppose that the question is way off track.

The apostle you quoted above also said in 1 john 2:1 that "...if any man sin..." Pointing to the possibility of committing sin by a believer for in verse 2 he said "...not for ours [sins] only, but also for the whole world[the unbelievers also]...

musKeeto:
You and this your nicey ways.. you no be Nigerian?


Ah, my favorite craseman breadbreaker joins in.. welcome buzu

hehe my favorite scorner and gainsayer Field Marshall Muskeeto

Mr_Anony:
Pastor AIO doesn't present a puzzle at all. You can pray for the forgiveness of someone's sins and God will forgive.
Even Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing". (point of note; I do not hold that such forgiveness of particular sins = automatic redemption by the blood)

What I haven't found evidenced in the bible however, is a person praying for God to forgive someone that has already died, the bible even makes points to the fact that there is no forgiveness after death e.g. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

ATMC's original question puzzles me but I am sure that God if He wills it will reveal it to us, personally, I suspect the issue is not in the verse itself but probably how we are reading the verse. Let me not speculate sha.

Yes, my brother, you are quite right. I'd grown very tired. Indeed God'll forgive another if we ask him to. But as to one who has died, I'm pretty sure there's no possibility of prayers from this side helping them.

As for ATMC's matter, my thought there is that once things have been brought to an end and the Judgment arrives, there is no more place for Mercy. (It was actually something you said in that thread you started in the Islam section that opened my eyes to this.) What we know of the Judgment is that it is the summarizing of everything and assigning of value to everything. When anyone stands before Christ, I doubt that there can be any more "ok, here's your last chance. Will you repent or remain obstinate?" However, it is not wise to ignore "...or in the world to come".

Regardless, I have a custom with regard to the study of the Bible. I only care to pursue the meanings of things when I can see how they touch our bodily life down here and build us up in grace. Is there some use in knowing whether or not at the Judgment a person might still receive mercy? The leaning of the Scripture seems to be "today...harden not your heart when you hear..." In the world to come, perhaps a sin committed today might be forgiven, but what does that matter to our walk with God and our love toward all men today?

ATMC: if there's no way a person who has faith in christ can sin then y did d bible talk about we having an advocate with d father if any one sins nd also forgiveness.
Moreover i understand being born again to be born of d spirit, having my old man put to death nd d new man come alive in christ.
Most of d follow up letters dt were written by paul addressed living in sin. For instance his letters to d romans. I'm saying dt all it takes is not just faith in christ but our actions as well. Dt's y i asked whether one who dies in d course of a particular sin will make it. Some pple believe dt nd i wonder where they got dt from.

9[b] No one who is born of God will continue to sin[/b], because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
1John 3:9-10

Also if you read Romans 7:7 down to Romans 8:15, hopefully you'll come to a better understanding. When you read Paul's letters, you will notice that he doesn't correct them as if they can't help it rather as people who shouldn't even dare to consider it at all in the first place. The bible is clear, No unrighteousness will be permitted in heaven. None whatsoever

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men...........(1Cor 6:9)

The sin against the Holyspirit is very complicated.I wouldn't worry about it.But i really pity those who fall into that category.It only means they cannot be redeemed by the precious blood of Christ.
As for the forgiveness in the world to come,there is a provision for forgiveness except for those who sinned against the holyspirit.This is what the scripture refers to as 2nd death(They are now cast into the hell). Read through the book of 1st peter.

anukulapo:



A little back-up for ATMC's question. Don't suppose that the question is way off track.

The apostle you quoted above also said in 1 john 2:1 that "...if any man sin..." Pointing to the possibility of committing sin by a believer for in verse 2 he said "...not for ours [sins] only, but also for the whole world[the unbelievers also]...

ATMC: if there's no way a person who has faith in christ can sin then y did d bible talk about we having an advocate with d father if any one sins nd also forgiveness.
Moreover i understand being born again to be born of d spirit, having my old man put to death nd d new man come alive in christ.
Most of d follow up letters dt were written by paul addressed living in sin. For instance his letters to d romans. I'm saying dt all it takes is not just faith in christ but our actions as well. Dt's y i asked whether one who dies in d course of a particular sin will make it. Some pple believe dt nd i wonder where they got dt from.

Both of you, my brother and sister, have a very valid point. Permit me to use an analogy to address the issue.

Imagine three students all tasked with the same calculus problem. Student A has never ever seen calculus before, Student B has seen calculus but has never been taught how to deal with it, and Student C has seen calculus and been taught its principles and how to deal with its various problems. All of them have one thing in common: they know algebra. Now, if all of them got the answer to the problem wrong, which one will have really been said to have failed at the problem?

I imagine that your answer would be, in fairness, Student C. There is no question as to their, all of them, getting it wrong, but the first two did not fail because there could not rightly be expectation of them considering the limits of their ability.

This translates thus: that whether or not a child of God could be said to have sinned is dependent on the degree of their growth/development in Christ. A sin committed due to ignorance that it is a sin cannot fairly be called a sin, and a sin committed in ignorance of a way of escape also cannot fairly be called a sin. But because a Christian is one in whom the Nature of Jesus Christ dwells, there is that in him which says, "there's something very wrong here" when either he commits a sin unwitting or he commits a sin ignorant of how to avoid it. That thing makes him go seeking to either know for sure God's moral evaluation of the act involved or how to escape it. The failure to do either is that which is refered to as SIN in the passages pointed out by Mr Anony. And that failure is impossible to a child of God. Another failure impossible to the child of God is that which is on the order of that of Student C's. A child of God who knows that such and such a thing is a sin and that this and that is how to escape it will not commit that sin.

However, ignorance or not, the moral value of the act remains the same. Those first two students did in fact fail and for that failure their teacher, if they are submitted to the government of one, is responsible. Here, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit become manifest.

For a child of God (and for the whole world as well, the difference is that the child of God believes it and accepts it as the bedrock of his life and fate with God), Jesus Christ has assumed full responsibility for all his failure before God. This means that the child of God has his failure fully covered by Jesus Christ before the God of all the earth. When he sins, God's Judgment is answered by Jesus Christ's advocacy. This is the power of the Blood of Jesus toward God for us. But that is only one side, there is another: the Christian.

The Holy Spirit is tasked with taking the Christian and making of him that which is in utter agreement with the Nature and Character of Jesus Christ. So when the Christian sins, his Teacher within (the Holy Spirit of God) promptly says, "not so, this is not Christ" causing him that anguish of heart that we call repentance for it works out to "how, Lord? How shall I escape?" This response leads to the child of God entering into Christ's victory over the sin in question. None but the child of God has this charascteristic. It is how they are known.

What I have attempted to do here is reconcile those passages. There is one final thing to do and it is to tell you, ATMC, directly and most assuredly that there is no salvation by works. The works linked to salvation are those produced because we are, NOT for us to be, saved. Fornicators et al shall not enter the Kingdom [b]not because they commit fornication etc but because THEY THEMSELVES ARE fornicators et al. The believer might fail in some point or other, but his failure is fully covered and accounted for. Besides, he cannot remain in sin because he carries the Nature of the Holy One.

Ihedinobi:



Both of you, my brother and sister, have a very valid point. Permit me to use an analogy to address the issue.

Imagine three students all tasked with the same calculus problem. Student A has never ever seen calculus before, Student B has seen calculus but has never been taught how to deal with it, and Student C has seen calculus and been taught its principles and how to deal with its various problems. All of them have one thing in common: they know algebra. Now, if all of them got the answer to the problem wrong, which one will have really been said to have failed at the problem?

I imagine that your answer would be, in fairness, Student C. There is no question as to their, all of them, getting it wrong, but the first two did not fail because there could not rightly be expectation of them considering the limits of their ability.

This translates thus: that whether or not a child of God could be said to have sinned is dependent on the degree of their growth/development in Christ. A sin committed due to ignorance that it is a sin cannot fairly be called a sin, and a sin committed in ignorance of a way of escape also cannot fairly be called a sin. But because a Christian is one in whom the Nature of Jesus Christ dwells, there is that in him which says, "there's something very wrong here" when either he commits a sin unwitting or he commits a sin ignorant of how to avoid it. That thing makes him go seeking to either know for sure God's moral evaluation of the act involved or how to escape it. The failure to do either is that which is refered to as SIN in the passages pointed out by Mr Anony. And that failure is impossible to a child of God. Another failure impossible to the child of God is that which is on the order of that of Student C's. A child of God who knows that such and such a thing is a sin and that this and that is how to escape it will not commit that sin.

However, ignorance or not, the moral value of the act remains the same. Those first two students did in fact fail and for that failure their teacher, if they are submitted to the government of one, is responsible. Here, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit become manifest.

For a child of God (and for the whole world as well, the difference is that the child of God believes it and accepts it as the bedrock of his life and fate with God), Jesus Christ has assumed full responsibility for all his failure before God. This means that the child of God has his failure fully covered by Jesus Christ before the God of all the earth. When he sins, God's Judgment is answered by Jesus Christ's advocacy. This is the power of the Blood of Jesus toward God for us. But that is only one side, there is another: the Christian.

The Holy Spirit is tasked with taking the Christian and making of him that which is in utter agreement with the Nature and Character of Jesus Christ. So when the Christian sins, his Teacher within (the Holy Spirit of God) promptly says, "not so, this is not Christ" causing him that anguish of heart that we call repentance for it works out to "how, Lord? How shall I escape?" This response leads to the child of God entering into Christ's victory over the sin in question. None but the child of God has this charascteristic. It is how they are known.

What I have attempted to do here is reconcile those passages. There is one final thing to do and it is to tell you, ATMC, directly and most assuredly that there is no salvation by works. The works linked to salvation are those produced because we are, NOT for us to be, saved. Fornicators et al shall not enter the Kingdom [b]not because they commit fornication etc but because THEY THEMSELVES ARE fornicators et al. The believer might fail in some point or other, but his failure is fully covered and accounted for. Besides, he cannot remain in sin because he carries the Nature of the Holy One.

sound! I agree with u on so many things u said but these two- ignorance of calculus (sin) doesn't make it not to be wrong...saul was doing d wrong thing thinking it was right. Again, if its accounted to jesus every wrong committed by a christian cos of jesus' advocacy, then we could live anyhow we want nd get away with it afterall jesus died for d sins of d whole world!
Salvation is not of works, d thief dt was crucified with jesus did nothing to earn being with christ in paradise. But there r labour of love nd works of faith nd i think dt these r very important. Only god knows how he'll judge. U made sound points in ur above posts but seriously there r different glories nd i believe dt d glory dt d person who lived a holy life while on earth can never be d same with dt of d person who lived anyhow knowing dt his sins r accounted to jesus...as a matter of factly, dt's my point.
By d way...paul, while trying to emphasise on resurrection in his letter to d corinthians, referred to their baptizing their dead...what thinketh thee about this?

@ATMC, please let me assure you that I addressed the issue of licence to do wickedness simply because Jesus has assumed responsibility for our wrong in my earlier post. I said,

Ihedinobi:
When he sins, God's Judgment is answered by Jesus Christ's advocacy. This is the power of the Blood of Jesus toward God for us. But that is only one side, there is another: the Christian.

The Holy Spirit is tasked with taking the Christian and making of him that which is in utter agreement with the Nature and Character of Jesus Christ. So when the Christian sins, his Teacher within (the Holy Spirit of God) promptly says, "not so, this is not Christ" causing him that anguish of heart that we call repentance for it works out to "how, Lord? How shall I escape?" This response leads to the child of God entering into Christ's victory over the sin in question. None but the child of God has this charascteristic. It is how they are known.

The child of God cannot take the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for granted. He knows that the "evilness" of evil and the sinfulness of sin is fully captured by the fact that One Who was utterly pure and against Whom even one charge of iniquity could not be brought had to die for him. If the cost of sin is the life of a holy man who could, because he had no sin of his own, stand before God and ask for mercy for utterly undeserving sinners by offering up for the satisfaction of Perfect Justice his own perfect life, no true Christian can make light of that. Every true Christian will hate sin because God hated it so much that He placed a sentence of death upon it.

With respect to the issue of works, I said,

. . . there is no salvation by works. The works linked to salvation are those produced BECAUSE WE ARE, NOT for us to be, saved. Fornicators et al shall not enter the Kingdom not because they commit fornication etc but because THEY THEMSELVES ARE fornicators et al. The believer might fail in some point or other, but his failure is fully covered and accounted for. Besides, he cannot remain in sin because he carries the Nature of the Holy One.

Works of righteousness are to be expected of a nature of righteousness. If the Christian is one in Whom Jesus Christ's Nature is, then it is only to be expected that the Christian should do what Christ did. As it would be a strange thing to hear the lion bleat like a goat, it would be very strange indeed to find a Christian fornicating or lying or cheating or stealing. It would be a negation of his nature. He has a holy nature that abhors sin so it should be natural for him to only be found in acts of righteousness. When he isn't, there is something very wrong.

Finally, there is the issue that those two unskilled students did in fact fail. I said about them,

However, ignorance or not, the moral value of the act remains the same. Those first two students did in fact fail

Yes, they most certainly did. But the same way you would hold responsible the person who allowed a toddler access to the gun with which he shot and killed the cat or the person who failed to teach a young worker who fouled up the printing of the daily papers how to correctly operate the printing press, is the way you hold the Holy Spirit responsible for the failings of ignorant children of God. And, believe me, He does accept full responsibility for those failings. You see it in their repentance when they have failed, in their questioning as to whether something they are contemplating doing is really not a sin. The Holy Spirit is their Teacher and this is why we are warned to judge nothing before the time. Their failure is part of their learning. He could prevent it and where it is easier for them to learn without failing, He does prevent it. But sometimes He doesn't because He knows that they will learn in the midst of their failure.

Again, whether or not the child of God is ignorant in the ways I described, the thing done is no less a sin, the question is, who takes responsibility for it? Before the Judge of all the Earth, Jesus Christ does. In giving us His Own Spirit to teach us and guide us into all His Ways, He also makes us responsible to Him. I very much hope this is clear, that I haven't confused you or anything.

As for the place in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, I think you refer to 1 Cor 15:29, please correct me if I'm wrong. The verse does not say, "baptizing the dead". It says, "Otherwise, what do people mean by being [themselves] baptized in behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?" (AMP)

I see how that seems to mean that one could be baptized on behalf of a dead person, perhaps a loved one who died unsaved, so that such a person could be saved from hell. I will continue my address on it in my next post: I'm running out of typing space.

@ATMC, it does not mean that. It would only mean that if you divorced that portion of the letter from the rest of it. Paul was addressing the question of resurrection. The Corinthians had sent him a letter detailing questions they wanted answered concerning their faith. One of the questions was whether there really was a resurrection. His answer was that it was an absurd question. If there were no resurrection, it was for a dead Jesus that they were being baptized and what sense did that make? If Jesus Christ were still dead, wasn't it crazy that they were being baptized into Him? What point was there in doing so?

He was saying in essence that the proof that there is indeed a resurrection to look forward to is the fact that the Jesus Christ for whom and into whom we are being baptized is indeed alive from the dead. Because He has been raised from the dead, the gospel makes sense and there is good reason to accept baptism in and into the Name of Jesus Christ.

You could read the whole of 1 Cor 15 to confirm this. In fact, I encourage you to.

Tx. i'm glad u took ur time to explain, i'm cleared on dt.

Good explanation and to back up one of you points

"However, ignorance or not, the moral value of
the act remains the same. Those first two
students did in fact fail"

Luke 14:42-48...tips can also be gathered to buttress your point from there and from the parable of talents too

However,my last post have not been cleared.
Attn:all and goshen360
Thanks all.