Now, when we take this Gen. 1:1 .....How do we understand it? Do we understand it as that God created the heavens and the earth or do we understand it as a perfect created heaven and earth that was created and was void and formless due to lucifer judgment or what?

Let us examine line by line still.....But I need you to respond along side with me. How do you take Gen. 1:1 as a whole?

Delafruita:
i dont agree with this.on what basis do you assume that john didnt know what word to use?wasnt the bible inspired by god?

Not to "know" the word to use is different from not to "find" the word to use. When you go back to John's epistle, he later used words that reflected the same revelation as that of John 1:1,

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life. 1 John 1:1

To "come" FROM somewhere means you reside in that place right? John is still trying to find words to communicate the heart of the Spirit. But when you use words such as "eternity past", "dateless past", "when nothing was, God is" etc, then we understand better. Are you flowing in this thought?

The second question is what "heavens" is Gen. 1:1 talking about IF THERE IS A GAP BETWEEN VERSE 1 AND 2? I need your response now.

@ Delafruita,

I guess we continue tomorrow please. Seems I need take a nap now, okay.

plaetton:

Ha ha ha. that is very funny.
In your haste you missed one crucial point: Fishes wash up on shore when they are dead or near death. So even if there were no surfaces to wash up on, they would still be dead because of the prolonged turbulence and disruption of their ecosystem.

Pls take a refresher course in marine biology. Infact, marine life are much more sensitive to disruptions in their environment than terrestial lifeforms.

so, turbulence in water kill fishes in the ocean?

Goshen360: @ Delafruita,

I guess we continue tomorrow please. Seems I need take a nap now, okay.

no problem boss.by then my christianity would have expired but i'm interested in this topic

Delafruita: *reading and laughing*

you need a break,

do you know the work load you took upon yourself?

Men! That was not easy, at least to me.

Goshen360:

lies.....God creating man in His image is NOT in physical resemblance. You need to stop reading the bible just to look for words to critize. In his image and likeness means to reflect the person and character of God just like the sun, moon and star are to be light bearer because God is light. So man, in God's image and likeness is to be or reflect God's character and person on earth. Again, you need to use concordance and BIBLE dictionary not English dictionary to define bible words because it wasn't translated from English to English.

HaH ha.
Another twist. Many christians would throw you in hell for suggesting that man is not the physical image of god. Afterall, god walked in the garden of eden,walked with enoch, walked with moses, wrestled with jacob, I assume, on two legs, two arms and a head, and not four legs,paws and horns.

Delafruita:
no problem boss.by then my christianity would have expired but i'm interested in this topic

What makes you so sure that God exists at all—especially when you can’t see, hear, or touch him?

plaetton:

God did not create dwarfism because, like every other genetic abnormality, evolution has a much better explanation for dwarfism.
Infact, dwarfism squarely contradicts the notion of god creating man in his own image.
dont't you agree?

that means the chipanzee is also in God's image?

Or, can it be referring to the mind?

To the rationality likeness?

truthislight:

so, turbulence in water kill fishes in the ocean?

Just use your imagination for a bit and imagine the type of turbulence in the sea that would flood an entire planet for 40 days and destroy everything.
Just do that for me ok.

truthislight:

that means the chipanzee is also in God's image?

Or, can it be referring to the mind?

To the rationality likeness?

I dont get you most of the time.
i dont know what dwarfism and chimpanzees have to witht he issues here.

Delafruita:
you didnt complete john4:24.infact to understand that verse,you have to go back to john 4:7.jesus meets the woman of samaria at a well and the discussion progresses to a point where she says in verse 19 "sir i perceive that you are a prophet".she goes ahead to say her fathers worshipped on the mountain but that yeshwa now says jerusalem is the place for worship to which jesus responds "the time is coming when neither on this mountain nor in jerusalem will you worship the father".he goes further in verse 23 "but the hour is coming and now is,when the true worshippers will worship the father in spirit and truth,for such the father seeks to worship him".verse 24 then expands this by saying "god is spirit,those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth".
i perceive you assume the phrase "god is spirit" refers to physical attributes however this is just to teach the followers that the worship of god goes beyond the physical things we do.it goes neyond obeying the commandments,it goes beyond camouflaging.god sees our hearts and he wants us to worship him with our body,spirit and soul.the 20 verses pass across one message and you need to read and understand them as been one long sentence.that phrase "god is spirit" cannot be isolated and branded with its own meaning
its similar to john 1:1 saying "and the word was god".or other phrases like "the lord is my shield and my buckler" "the lord is a consuming fire" etc.
genesis 1:2 could be rendered "....and the WIND of god was moving over the......".the hebrew word "ruach" could and is translated severally in the bible as either wind,spirit,mind or breath.for example exodus 15:10 has the same word "ruach" and its translated as "thou didst blow with thy wind,the sea covered them......."
the same word is used in genesis 8:1 and it reads "and god remembered noah and...............and god made a wind blow over the earth......"

Dalafruita.

You will soon convert me to atheist!

diluminati:
wow

is it only what PLAETON wrote that you can see here?

You two!

Goshen360: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

That of Genesis talks about time, space and matter - In the beginning (time); the heavens (space) and matter (earth). That of John 1:1 refers to dateless past or eternity for it speaks of Jesus in his pre-existence WITH GOD. John did not find a word to use, hence he said in the beginning.

Now, put both together and you will realize John 1:1 antedates Gen. 1:1 because when Gen. 1:1 first mentioned God, it will therefore mean God existed before He could create and John 1:1 told us the Word was WITH GOD and this Word is God. This is why the word God which is "Elohim" in Hebrew is plural but not as Gods because the verb construction is singular. So Gen. 1:1 is simply referring to "TIME" when the heavens and the earth was created.

Do you agree with this explanation before I proceed ?

you did not use the bible to expand this.

How did you arrived at that?

truthislight:

Dalafruita.

You will soon convert me to atheist!

lol

plaetton:

I dont get you most of the time.
i dont know what dwarfism and chimpanzees have to witht he issues here.

chimpanzee walks on two legs and have two hands, can walk straight, head like man.

Are you just imteretd in the HIGHT of a dwarf?

Torah or Old Testiment
In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth and all life on Earth, man and woman, in 7 days resting on the 7th day. The garden of Eden where 4 rivers meet Pishon, Gihon, Tigress, Euphrates.

Sumerian Tablets
In the Anunnaki version the Anunnaki Enki lands on Earth with 50 Anunnaki Hero's and established Eridu in the Edin in 7 days making the 7th day a rest day. the Edin where 4 rivers meet. ( Mesopotamia, Iraq )

Torah
And God said let us make man in our image and in our likeness. God made Man from the dust of the Earth, and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life and the man came to be a living soul. He called the man Adam

Sumerian Tablets
The Birth From The Anunnaki Of (Adamu and TiAmat).First Generation Earth humans.--------The Anunnaki toiled the Gold mines for 80 shars, over 300,000 years before creating worker helpers in thier image and thier likeness. --------- Ningishzidda ( Enki's son ) engineers Anunnaki male human essence DNA with the oval egg of Homoerectus female in a vesel made from the clay of the Earth (like test tube baby) and inserts it into the womb of Ninmah(Ninharsag). Ninmah gives birth to Adamu. Same thing but for a girl, Enki inserts it into Damkina (Enki's spouse,Alalu's Daughter). Damkina gives birth to Tiamat. ADAMU & TIAMAT the models created in the Anunnaki's image.

ifeness:

What makes you so sure that God exists at all—especially when you can’t see, hear, or touch him?

when i look at the universe,its diversity and uniqueness astounds me.there is credible evidence for intelligent design.in a bid to put the creation theory to test,i did a little research on darwin's theory of evolution.infact i got a copy of "origin of species" and still refer to it from time to time.darwin made a fundamental point which evolutionists of today dont often cite.he examined the compleity of the eye and admitted that he had no idea how evolutiion could account for an organ so complex in which if one single component was missing or failed to function properly,the entire organ wont work.how many "trial and error" did the process of evolution go through to arrive at the eye?

then we have symbiotic relationships which cannot be explained by evolution.for example,the washer fish and the shark have one such relationship.the sharks leaves it jaws wide open for these fishes to eat the crumbs left between the teeth of the shark.why does the shark refuse to eat these particular specie of fishes?how does evolution explain such relationship?how long did it take for the shark and the fish to evolve this relationship?its only sensible to assume that if the sharks had been eating the fishes at the earlier stage of evolution,the descendants of the fishes wouldnt dare move close to the sharks.but we see a situation where sharks queue up to get attended to by these fishes.that is a strong proof for intelligent design.
i believe god exists because the universe couldnt have existed without his intelligent design

Torah/Bible
Story of the Flood of Noah
God tells Noah to build an Ark and cover it inside and outside with tar. After it was built. God said to bring into it all the animals male and female for in 7 more days I am making it rain upon the earth for 40 days and 40 nights.

Sumerian
Story of the Flood of Ziusudra (Noah)
Galzu the Anunnaki emissary appears in a dream to Enki with a tablet of a blue print of the Ark for Ziusudra to build and save himself, his wife, three sons Shem, Ham, Yafet, their families, and all the animals and dna. Enki awakens to find the tablet has manifested and is with him. Not breaking an oath not to tell anyone of the coming deluge by Nibiru's coming and gravitational pull causing this event, Enki speaks to Ziusudra through a reed hut leaving the tablet to find.

According to carbon dating SUMERIAN TABLES = 9000 YEARS OLD TORAH/BIBLE = 4000 YEARS OLD

The Tower of Babel story (TORAH/BIBLE)
The people got together and said; let us make bricks baked by fire so that they serve as stone. Use bitumen(tar) for motar. Let us build in the city a Tower that its top reach the heavens. And God came down to see the city and the Tower.
And God said; Look they are as one people, and they have one language and this is what they do. Now nothing they will do that will be impossible for them. Come let us go down and there confuse thier language that thet may not understand one anothers language. And God scattered them all over the face of the Earth and they stopped building the city.

The Tower to Heaven (SUMERIAN TABLETS)
Marduke takes land, shows his followers brick making. and to use fire so that they may serve as stone. and Builds a tower.
Marduke is building An unpermited gateway to heaven.(a stargate). If this we allow to happen, no other matter of Mankind shall be unreached. This evil plan must be stopped! Ninurta said; all with that agreed. It was nighttime when the Enlilite Anunnaki came, From thier skyships with fire and brimstone the tower they rained and destroyed. The followers they spread across the land. Enlil in each region and every land the people a different tounge he made to speak. a different form of writing he made that the other would not understand.

The only thing the poster has done so far is to show that he reads the bible. Though with little understanding of it.

Mee234: The only thing the poster has done so far is to show that he reads the bible. Though with little understanding of it.

I agree

.......but he tried sha, I'll give him 5/10 for effort. It was fun watching him try tho

Mee234: The only thing the poster has done so far is to show that he reads the bible. Though with little understanding of it.

If you cant do better then bottle it up..

Delafruita:

when i look at the universe,its diversity and uniqueness astounds me.there is credible evidence for intelligent design.in a bid to put the creation theory to test,i did a little research on darwin's theory of evolution.infact i got a copy of "origin of species" and still refer to it from time to time.darwin made a fundamental point which evolutionists of today dont often cite.he examined the compleity of the eye and admitted that he had no idea how evolutiion could account for an organ so complex in which if one single component was missing or failed to function properly,the entire organ wont work.how many "trial and error" did the process of evolution go through to arrive at the eye?

then we have symbiotic relationships which cannot be explained by evolution.for example,the washer fish and the shark have one such relationship.the sharks leaves it jaws wide open for these fishes to eat the crumbs left between the teeth of the shark.why does the shark refuse to eat these particular specie of fishes?how does evolution explain such relationship?how long did it take for the shark and the fish to evolve this relationship?its only sensible to assume that if the sharks had been eating the fishes at the earlier stage of evolution,the descendants of the fishes wouldnt dare move close to the sharks.but we see a situation where sharks queue up to get attended to by these fishes.that is a strong proof for intelligent design.
i believe god exists because the universe couldnt have existed without his intelligent design

And Jupiter, 800 times the size of the earth, is just a big ball of gas occupying about 70% of our solar system by design too? Designers tend to be stingy with space.
and mars is desolate by design?
4.7 billion years of ceasless interactions of matter. If a human embryo can go from single celled spermatozoa into a complex machine in just 9 months, why do you think that 4.7 billion years is not enough time to evolve from very simple to very complex?

plaetton:

And Jupiter, 800 times the size of the earth, is just a big ball of gas occupying about 70% of our solar system by design too? Designers tend to be stingy with space.
and mars is desolate by design?
4.7 billion years of ceasless interactions of matter. If a human embryo can go from single celled spermatozoa into a complex machine in just 9 months, why do you think that 4.7 billion years is not enough time to evolve from very simple to very complex?

Your argument here seems to be based on "If I was the designer, I would have done it differently". That's a poor argument.

Mr_Anony:
Your argument here seems to be based on "If I was the designer, I would have done it differently". That's a poor argument.

By the same token, inffering that something was designed because they appear too complex in your limited view, is also a poor argument.

truthislight:

you did not use the bible to expand this.

How did you arrived at that?

Delafruita:
no problem boss.by then my christianity would have expired but i'm interested in this topic

When we all come together tomorrow, we shall start another thread to discuss this. It will be a worth thing to expand on. You guys will "probably" have a different approach towards studying the bible as you will learn somethings from me and I will also learn from you guys. We shall take it line upon line, precept upon precept. Enjoy!

Delafruita:

when i look at the universe,its diversity and uniqueness astounds me.there is credible evidence for intelligent design.in a bid to put the creation theory to test,i did a little research on darwin's theory of evolution.infact i got a copy of "origin of species" and still refer to it from time to time.darwin made a fundamental point which evolutionists of today dont often cite.he examined the compleity of the eye and admitted that he had no idea how evolutiion could account for an organ so complex in which if one single component was missing or failed to function properly,the entire organ wont work.how many "trial and error" did the process of evolution go through to arrive at the eye?

then we have symbiotic relationships which cannot be explained by evolution.for example,the washer fish and the shark have one such relationship.the sharks leaves it jaws wide open for these fishes to eat the crumbs left between the teeth of the shark.why does the shark refuse to eat these particular specie of fishes?how does evolution explain such relationship?how long did it take for the shark and the fish to evolve this relationship?its only sensible to assume that if the sharks had been eating the fishes at the earlier stage of evolution,the descendants of the fishes wouldnt dare move close to the sharks.but we see a situation where sharks queue up to get attended to by these fishes.that is a strong proof for intelligent design.
i believe god exists because the universe couldnt have existed without his intelligent design

Alright,we humans are the most intelligent animals on the planet. Therefore other animals will think we are Gods. So i think the term God or Gods is a reference to beings superior and more advanced than we are. If God does exists, they are millions of them and they evolved just like we are evolving now in many aspects.

Humans have evolved from living in caves and huts to living in our own self made paradise. We probably have the DNA of the GODS who genetically created us. Moses of the bible will probably call us YAHWEH too because we now fly in air-place and communicate with mobile phone. In 100 years,no one would like to go to heaven because we have created heaven on earth.

Mr_Anony:
Your argument here seems to be based on "If I was the designer, I would have done it differently". That's a poor argument.

You contradict yourself. If something is designed, it has to have a purpose for the design.
As an intelligent design appologists, if you cannot fathom a purpose for the design and creation of a ball of gas 800 times the size of the earth,why should we not ask why?

plaetton:

By the same token, inffering that something was designed because they appear too complex in your limited view, is also a poor argument.

It is at least a good place to start. Random chance is a very far-fetched conclusion to draw from observing a sufficiently complex entity. It is even worse when you criticize the suggestion of a design based on the assumption that the designer ought to have done it like you would have.

Mr_Anony:
It is at least a good place to start. Random chance is a very far-fetched conclusion to draw from observing a sufficiently complex entity. It is even worse when you criticize the suggestion of a design based on the assumption that the designer ought to have done it like you would have.

It is one thing to say that something was designed because it looks so complex and so perfect,then turn around to defend the designer by questioning the motives of one who points out the flaws in the design.
If it was designed, why should we not expect perfection?
What is the point of designing something if not for ultimate efficiency and perfection?

If I cannot use my human senses and intellect to judge and question a design, then with what faculty am i supposed to use to even appreciate such perfect design?

Evolution perfectly accounts for the many apparent flaws in creation. Intelligent design theory does not.