frosbel:

Recently, I had a woman tell me the following: “To be a Christian is to be a Trinitarian. To deny the Trinity is to deny Christianity.” I question the validity of this statement when nowhere in my Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, does it state this.

This is an age old debate – whether God is one God (the Heavenly Father) which is called “Unitarianism” or He is a triple God in one (triune) - a three-person “who” in one “what” Godhead (called the Trinity).

Those who profess the Trinity doctrine basically adhere to believing that either you accept by faith this doctrine, or you’re not even a Christian. They believe it’s the litmus test for Christianity: accept by faith that Jesus is God, that he is “Deity,” or you’re not a Christian. I find that rather harsh, wouldn’t you say, when the Scriptures, and even God, does not require this to be saved?

Romans 10:9 tells us “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.” Wouldn’t that have been an awesome time to have put in the Trinity requirement? Romans 10:9 states that Jesus didn’t raise himself from the dead. God raised Jesus and brought him back to life! To believe in the Trinity, you would have to believe that the man-part of Jesus died, but the God-part of Jesus did NOT die, because we all know that Scripture says that God cannot die, that he alone has immortality. With just one verse, we can open up a can of worms for the Trinitarians that is hard for them to explain and still make logical sense.

In Luke 10, a certain lawyer asked Jesus, “What shall I do to inherit eternal life?” (which would be asking the same thing – how can I be saved from the second death – the lake of fire, and instead receive eternal life?). Jesus answered him with a question – “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” and he answered, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And Jesus said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”

The requirement to believe in the Trinity in order to be saved and considered a Christian, is blatantly missing from the Scriptures, over and over again, although Jesus is given many opportunities to bring it up and explain it. The Apostle Paul has to deal with issues about Jews not requiring Gentiles to live by the law, (i.e. circumcision, what foods to eat, etc.) yet, does not have to explain to the Jewish people that God is no longer one God, like they thought, but revealed to him now, that God is three who’s in one what.

The Scriptures are amazingly silent on this debate, that would surely have taken place, had the Jewish-Christian apostles been preaching Jesus, “the second person of the Godhead.” It is amazing to me that today’s Christians do not seem to be bothered by this, and basically use a few “proof texts” to attempt to prove their doctrine, when those same Scriptures could also be used to defend that Jesus is who he said he was – the Messiah, who was exalted to the Right hand of God.

Yet so many people cling tenaciously to the Trinity and defend it with such a defensive, pit-bull attitude. I can't help wondering why. Why is this such a big deal to them, despite their doubts, despite the inability to completely understand or explain this doctrine that has so many issues with Scripture? Why do they want to believe in it? Because most want to continue believing in this, despite nagging doubts or unanswered questions that nibble on their consciences, if they allow it.

Source

Delafruita: anyone that believes in the trinity is not a christian

frosbel:

I disagree on the technicality of incomprehensibility , which has been caused the by "Mother Church " and not through deliberate intent.

Bélla3: Thank God! I thought i was the only one who didnt believe the trinity.

Delafruita:
the bible says "seek knowledge and get understanding".it also says "my people perish for lack of knowledge".
anyone who is too lazy to seek information about the religion they profess and thus embrace heretic teachings deserves to rot in the hell their religion preaches

plappville: I USED TO BELIEVE IT THEN WHEN I WASN'T FOND OF STUDYING MY BIBLE, NO ONE IS ABOVE MISTAKE;
THE GREATEST MISTAKE A CONVERT WILL DO IS TO KEEP ONLY TO THE SERMON AND NOT TAKE TIME TO STUDY THE TRUTH.

THE TRINITY DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

Goshen360:

It doesn't have to make sense my sister. With God, there is he that scatters BUT increase. When I saw this scriptures, it doesn't make sense to me. And there is he that withholds but tends to poverty. Lord! how does this make any sense? If I scatter, I increase, meaning if I minus (that is with God or in God's kind of maths or equation), I increase but if I add or withhold, I decrease.....it doesn't make any sense to me. Let us stop using "human sense" to explain things of the Spirit.

Yes, 1 + 1 + 1 we know is three but it is one in/as UNITY (as the case in/with the Godhead). This is where the case of unity came from, different in entity but one as/in Unity, just like a husband and a wife are two separate beings but one as unity.

Just my advice.

Goshen360: @ Frosbel,

I think you are the one making so much issue out of this Trinity stuff. I/Trinity doesn't mean we should worship 3 Gods, it simply calls Three distinct being "God" and recognizes the father as the father of all. Jesus said, you believe in God, believe also in me. When you said Peter believed in ONE God, not 3. That is correct but Peter also believed in Jesus Christ. This is not to mean Jesus is NOT God that is distinct from the Father. What's wrong in your son having your lastname e.g say Frosbel and you also bearing Frosbel as your lastname and the same lastname your father bears. God is not a name that belongs to one being: The father is called God in the bible, the son is called God and so is the Holy Spirit called God, then what is the problem with that?

frosbel:

Is there ONE GOD as in ONE PERSON , or is there ONE GOD as in 3 distinct PERSONS ?

Please let us not argue, we can agree to disagree

okeyxyz: @Goshen360 has the best logic and fit in this matter.

Clearly the new-testament talks about three distinct entities

(Let's not call them persons now. I guess that's the contention)

God the Father, who we all agree is not Jesus,

then jesus himself who is "the son"

then there is the Holy Spirit which(whom??)

jesus categorically says would come after himself and by whose power and guidiance the apostles claim to be led and perform miracles.

Indeed So we have The Father, Jesus and Holy-Spirit, each unique and different from the other. Why does @Frosbel & co try so hard to abolish the Holy-Spirit and cling only to Father & Son?

Goshen360: ^^^
If you are interpreting or translating the "Holy Spirit" as or to mean "God's spirit" (like a man having a spirit) how can a Spirit then have a spirit (for God is a Spirit)....if they are NOT distinct from one another?

HE HOLY SPIRIT

Dr. Lorraine Day, M.D.


All creeds that accept the doctrine of the trinity, believe the Holy Ghost a person, equal in substance, power, eternity, and glory with the Father and Son. Thus they claim three persons in the trinity, each one equal with both the others. If this is so, then the Holy Spirit is just as truly an individual, intelligent person as is the Father or the Son. But this we cannot believe.

The Holy Spirit is not a person. In all our prayers we naturally conceive of God as a person, and of the Son as a person; but who ever conceived of the Holy Ghost as a person, standing there beside the Father and equal with Him? Such a conception never enters anyone's mind. If you say that it does, we ask of what form is the Holy Ghost? Is He like the Father and Son, in the form of a man? Who can tell?

Again, the Father Himself is said to be a Spirit. Are there, then, two spirits, both divine, both God, both equal to each other, both alike? Then how is one different from the other? God is said to be a Spirit; and it is everywhere declared that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God. Is it then the spirit of a spirit? What kind of a spirit would that be? Again, "God is a Spirit." John 4:24.

Now if the Holy Ghost is a distinct person from the Father, here are two spirits. That the pre-existent Word, the Son, is another person, our opponents contend; and that He has a spirit they will not deny. Here, then, are three spirits - - the Son is a spirit, and the Holy Ghost is a spirit, and both equal in substance and power. Well, now the Son has a spirit, "for God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying, Abba, Father." Gal. 4:6. Again, "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His." Rom. 8:9 This makes four spirits. God also has a spirit. "The Spirit of God." Gen.1:2 And if the Holy Ghost is equal to the other two persons, then it must have a spirit too. Here are six spirits, and according to our trinitarian brethren, six persons. How absurd!

The simple truth is that God is a real person, in bodily form; and the Holy Spirit is truly the Spirit of God, a divine influence proceeding from the Father and also from the Son, as their power, energy, etc...The Bible never in any case calls the Holy Spirit a person, though it frequently does both the Father and Son.

Another fact having an important bearing upon this question, one which shows the utter falsity of the trinitarian creed that makes the Holy Ghost equal with the Father and Son is that the Holy Spirit has no throne, and is never worshipped. Many times it is explicitly declared that both the Father and the Son have a throne, and are seated upon that throne. Rev. 3:21 "But the throne of God and the Lamb shall be in it." Rev. 22:3 But where is the throne of the Holy Spirit? Who ever heard of that? How astonishing, if the Holy Spirit is the same as Father and the Son, and is one of the trinity, equal with them in power, substance, and glory! How is it, we ask, that it has no throne while the others have?

Then, again, as before stated, while worship is offered both to the Father and to the Son (see Rev. 5) in no single case is worship ever offered to the Holy Spirit. How can this be harmonized with the supposition that the Holy Ghost is equal with both the Father and the Son? Also we are required to love God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ; but no one is ever required to love the Holy Spirit. No such precept is given, nor is there any reference to it.

Another important fact is, that while very much is said about the great love that exists between the Father and the Son, how tenderly the Father loves the Son, and how devotedly the Son loves the Father, yet not one word is said about the Father's loving the Holy Ghost, nor that the Son loves the Holy Ghost, nor that the Holy Ghost loves either the Father or the Son. No such thought is ever expressed. How shall we account for this fact if the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, are three persons alike and equal?

How astonishing, we say, that so much is said about the mutual love between the Father and the Son, and yet, not one word is said about a similar love between the Holy Ghost and the other two persons! Why is it left out in this manner?

The truth is evident. The Holy Spirit is NOT a person, NOT an individual, but is an influence or power proceeding from the Godhead.

Furthermore, it is never said that the Holy Spirit ever loves man; yet it is frequently declared how greatly both the Father and the Son DO love man. But no such thing is ever said of the Holy Ghost. How shall we account for this?

Then, almost every illustration that is given of the Holy Spirit is inconsistent with the idea of its being a person. Let us notice a few. It is compared to water being poured out. "I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh." Acts 2:17. It is compared to water shed forth. "Having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:33 How could a person be shed forth? Believers are to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." Matt. 3:11 How could you baptize one person with another person?

We are to drink of the Holy Spirit. "Have all been made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Cor. 12:13 How could you drink into a person? It is compared to lamps of fire. "And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God." Rev. 4:5 Has God seven personal spirits then, instead of one? Is each one distinct from the other? Has each one a person or is this one person divided into seven parts? What does this mean?

All of these illustrations plainly show that the "Spirit of God" is NOT an individual.

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/theholyspirit2.htm

Goshen360: Well....I thought when you open a thread, you are or want to be open to other believer's view but it appears you already have a pre-conceived and concluded thoughts. One thing I have come to understand is that, being an apologetics does not argue God's word. It only presents the evidence and allows scripture to scripture "reasoning".

Again and the last time.....I don't have strength for argument my brother. I ask you question again:

God is Spirit (John 4:24)......that is a Spirit being

How can a Spirit (God) have a spirit IF the Spirit of God is NOT different from God (who is a Spirit)?

When you answer the above question, then you will understand Genesis 1:2.....I have spent more than half of my entire bible study life studying Genesis and also started a commentary on it. By the Grace of God, I can split the book Genesis into smallest particles for understanding using scriptures to explain scriptures.

Goshen360: @ Frosbel,

Nobody is saying you should not have your own view about a church doctrine and traditions BUT when you are reasoning with other brethren, then you have to reason with their own view and balance with your view. In the case when it seems others are right, all you have to do is drop your view....maybe your view wasn't balanced in the first place.

Now, on the above highlight/embolden is where the problem is coming from. To me, it's like you took this man's article and just swallowed it raw....probably because you want to refute church tradition and some heresy. Now, my question still goes: If God is a Spirit.......How then can God have BODILY FORM and How can a Spirit have a spirit/Spirit? This is the question you need to answer. But when you AGREE that God has a BODILY FORM like ours and that God is a person, then you can use "logic" to say/conclude that God has a spirit/Spirit and it will mean that God can be seen......But the scriptures declares, no man has seen God (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12)

frosbel:

Drop my view and tow the church line ?

No Sir.

Only when I am convinced otherwise , and we are a million miles apart at the moment.

You totally confused me.

Goshen360:

Oga mi, confused you ke! You be my boss for bible oo. How I go confuse my boss

I am trying to "reason" scripture with you.....I am trying to make you see that fact that, Spirit CANNOT have another spirit/Spirit (be it uppercase or lowercase -S). If Spirit cannot have spirit, it will therefore mean Holy Spirit is distinct from God who Jesus himself calls "Spirit". If Spirit cannot have spirit, the simple logic/reasoning here is that Holy Spirit is NOT God's spirit as in when God have a BODILY FORM but when you take God to have a BODILY form, then you will make the words of christ lies as per John 4:24 and then conclude that the Holy Spirit is not distinct from God but it's God's spirit.

Do you understand

frosbel:

You have totally wiped the floor with my brain, I am even more perplexed than at the start of our discussion